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geojeffrey
12-04-2010, 02:17 PM
They continue to live there, very strange, how do you go about your daily routine in this house??!! Grieving is horrible enough without constant daily reminders of what happened.

Also, at present, i believe there are NO visible signs of intruder proofing of the house or security alarms. How could anyone sleep in that house? Every sound you hear could be the return of the knife wielding murderer.

Then the lack of the reward.

All of these things point to something.

Frankly, prior to the the last few days, I never considered a family connection to the murders. Rather, I had been thinking that the family had some idea what had transpired.

Snick1946
12-04-2010, 07:35 PM
They continue to live there, very strange, how do you go about your daily routine in this house??!! Grieving is horrible enough without constant daily reminders of what happened.

Also, at present, i believe there are NO visible signs of intruder proofing of the house or security alarms. How could anyone sleep in that house? Every sound you hear could be the return of the knife wielding murderer.

Then the lack of the reward.

All of these things point to something.

Frankly, prior to the the last few days, I never considered a family connection to the murders. Rather, I had been thinking that the family had some idea what had transpired.

I may be reading into your comment but I gather you have been past the house and seen this for yourself. I have occasion to be in that neighborhood from time to time and have driven and in one case got out of my car and walked slowly past. I see no signs of any security system, keypad lock or whatever. I know some of the stuff that is used leaves no apparent trace but I just do not think they changed their lives to adjust to this. That does not mean any culpability on the family's part. It may simply be a case in which they feel no need for such. Not all of us are alike.
I was cleaning out my old emails this week and ran across a series of exchanges I had back in early 2009 with the then city councilman for the Dundee area, Jim Vokal. I came to like and respect Jim's concern and I don't think I am breaking any confidences when he told me that he felt frustration as many of us at OPD's handling of the case. He is a good man- he ran for mayor last year and lost. I wish he hadn't- he was dedicated to shaking things up at OPD. The police union took ads out against him. He told me at that time that there wasn't a day that he didn't wonder what happened and think about the families.
Anyway, one of the last emails he sent me said something to the effect that he was told by OPD to tell anyone asking about this case that there is no killer out there running around. It was 'not a random act'. The implication was left dangling. I had the feeling he was told more than this and wanted to at least reassure those of us worried about family in the area. I sensed not to press past that.
We may never know what happened that March afternoon.

thesaint
12-05-2010, 07:23 AM
They continue to live there, very strange, how do you go about your daily routine in this house??!! Grieving is horrible enough without constant daily reminders of what happened.

Also, at present, i believe there are NO visible signs of intruder proofing of the house or security alarms. How could anyone sleep in that house? Every sound you hear could be the return of the knife wielding murderer.

Then the lack of the reward.

All of these things point to something.

Frankly, prior to the the last few days, I never considered a family connection to the murders. Rather, I had been thinking that the family had some idea what had transpired.

It's kinda like the old cop show routine where they say that if a suspect sleeps well in his cell that first night or even falls asleep in the interrogation room, he's likely guilty.

NOT SAYING THE FAMILY HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.

But, yeah, the implication is sort of there that they aren't overly concerned about their safety staying in that house; which when combined with the Councilman's statement might suggest that, whatever happened, the family knows that it's done and nothing more will come of it.

This did happen just as the real estate collapse was getting into full-swing combined with the stigma of a double homicide might've simply made it too much of a financial loss to sell. I guess one could maybe rent it out until the market recovers, but a house like that, who knows.

geojeffrey
12-05-2010, 03:39 PM
I agree with the last couple posts, I certainly do NOT mean to imply the family has culpability, but rather, they may have a general idea of what happened and why, and this is why they don't have to be hyper-vigilant about the return of the perp.

I just hope OPD is aggressively working this case, but that seems unlikely too.

Despite the forensics/true crime shows on TV these days, few cases get high-tech dedicated and sustained attention by groups of investigators. This sad fact is true across the country.

Snick1946
12-07-2010, 11:11 AM
It's kinda like the old cop show routine where they say that if a suspect sleeps well in his cell that first night or even falls asleep in the interrogation room, he's likely guilty.

NOT SAYING THE FAMILY HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.

But, yeah, the implication is sort of there that they aren't overly concerned about their safety staying in that house; which when combined with the Councilman's statement might suggest that, whatever happened, the family knows that it's done and nothing more will come of it.

This did happen just as the real estate collapse was getting into full-swing combined with the stigma of a double homicide might've simply made it too much of a financial loss to sell. I guess one could maybe rent it out until the market recovers, but a house like that, who knows.

As I mentioned, I have visited the area many times since then crime. Homes are selling in that neighborhood. The house just to the north of them was on the market earlier this year and apparently sold.
Could LE have told the families some facts that would explain all this? I note that some of Shirlee's family were on here last year, then abruptly stopped. Did someone at OPD waive them off? Could a 'protected informant' be involved here- someone OPD does not want to move on prior to the conclusion of a drawn out investigation on another case?

YellowDog
12-07-2010, 12:53 PM
Maybe LE does know who did it but still need that last bit of proof to make the charges stick. Perhaps they have instructed the family members of the deceased to remain silent.

YellowDog
12-10-2010, 01:05 PM
If we knew for sure which one was killed first, we might be able to piece things together a little better.

Snick1946
12-14-2010, 05:22 PM
I was cleaning out some drawers today and ran across a paper I saved from March 2009 with coverage of a memorial service for Tom on the then first anniversary.
I was struck by a quote from the then lead detective in the case. He was saying that the public still neded to generate leads and input because the perp is 'still out there.' There was also a clear implication that he could strike again.
OPD needs to get the story straight; was this an isolated incident as they first pronounced? I was struck in looking back over the case how many times they shifted on this. IMO, they have never had a clue either way. They put out the stuff about this being limited and specific to the victims to hold down panic. It seems to matter if the spokesperson is a detective or a PR person for OPD.
I am fearful that the ball was dropped on this very early. They ought to have gone outside the box and instead lost valuable weeks and months harassing Shirlee's family for some 'drug' connection.
The victims' families IMO need to be mad as hell. They also need to be asking why AMW was not allowed to help, or why CU didn't want their staff talking to LE.

Snick1946
12-14-2010, 05:38 PM
If we knew for sure which one was killed first, we might be able to piece things together a little better.

I have little to base this on, just my feeling. But, I would guess that Shirlee was killed first. Crime scene evidence indicated she was taken by surprise, from behind, while cleaning (vaccuming?). If the perp was there to hit Tom he would not have expected to encounter her and had to take her out as well. Tom could have been in the basement, perhaps heard something and paused the game. The perp could then have come downstrairs after him- he eluded the guy and ran upstairs where he was cornered in the DR.
One thing I noted in the old article, Dr Hunter said Tom was 'covered with blood'. How in heavens name did this guy get out of there unnoticed?

YellowDog
12-14-2010, 08:16 PM
I tend to agree with you Snick. I don't think OPD has ever even had a suspect in this case. I wonder how much interviewing was even done with the neighbors and I wonder how large an area that covered.

I still find it curious that two families conncted with the medical profession had violent deaths though one was called a murder/suicide.

Have they ever interviewed the children that rode the school bus home the same day Tom was killed and, if so, did they notice anything unusual that day?

After 2 3/4 years, I think it's time for OPD to share some of their findings and maybe someone might remember something important from that day.

This is a VERY strange case and I keep feeling that Omaha just wants it "swept under the rug and forgotten".

Snick1946
12-15-2010, 09:55 PM
I tend to agree with you Snick. I don't think OPD has ever even had a suspect in this case. I wonder how much interviewing was even done with the neighbors and I wonder how large an area that covered.

I still find it curious that two families conncted with the medical profession had violent deaths though one was called a murder/suicide.

Have they ever interviewed the children that rode the school bus home the same day Tom was killed and, if so, did they notice anything unusual that day?

After 2 3/4 years, I think it's time for OPD to share some of their findings and maybe someone might remember something important from that day.

This is a VERY strange case and I keep feeling that Omaha just wants it "swept under the rug and forgotten".

Soon, probably after the Holidays, I want to start a list of the strange factors in this case, there is an abundence of them. Such as, how did the perp get out unnoticed in broad daylight after wittnesses observed
his arrival? Did he change his clothing? If so, wouldn't he have left DNA?
It's as if he dematerialized.
This case should be profiled on Dateline: I doubt they care if OPD likes it or not.

omaha
12-16-2010, 08:40 AM
You would think that if people can get a petition together to oust the mayor, they could get one to reform OPD. It's just so disapointing. I'm sure it's tough on the detectives, which I am sure do care, to have to sit silently -- either by lack of evidence or otherwise.

I really wish there were strong forces pushing on OPD to solve this. I sent a letter to the mayor and governor, but never heard back. Not even a form letter.

Snick1946
12-16-2010, 01:27 PM
You would think that if people can get a petition together to oust the mayor, they could get one to reform OPD. It's just so disapointing. I'm sure it's tough on the detectives, which I am sure do care, to have to sit silently -- either by lack of evidence or otherwise.

I really wish there were strong forces pushing on OPD to solve this. I sent a letter to the mayor and governor, but never heard back. Not even a form letter.

As many of you live outside Omaha I need to explain, we are currently undergoing a recall of the Mahyor, Jim Suttle. I will not go into the issues involved, but one allegagtion against him is that he has coddled the Omaha Police Union. I'd like to think that a change would bring a shakeup at OPD but perhaps not. Those behind this are complaining about spending,
etc and if anything we may see more funding cuts for police operations.
I have made several email contacts and written letters since this began, your experience is similar. Vokal was about the only public figure who seemed at all to care.

geojeffrey
12-16-2010, 03:25 PM
Such a frustrating case! Some obvious clues exist, but not enough to find clear answers.

When the perp (or accomplice) was seen by neighbors getting out of the Honda CRV and walking over to the Hunter's home, he cut across the neighbors yards.

This strikes me as an important clue. The organized and methodical stabbing that occurred displayed some knowledge of anatomy. This killer thought out what they were going to do and made it happen. Why would a methodical and organized killer walk across neighbors yards? Most people never walk across yards when trying to find a house, its a violation of a social norm and it goes against the grain of most folks. This tells me the guy had a very high level of familiarity with the location and the Hunter's home.

The only people who ever walk through my yard are kids and high school age teenagers from the neighborhood.

Snick1946
12-16-2010, 03:55 PM
Such a frustrating case! Some obvious clues exist, but not enough to find clear answers.

When the perp (or accomplice) was seen by neighbors getting out of the Honda CRV and walking over to the Hunter's home, he cut across the neighbors yards.

This strikes me as an important clue. The organized and methodical stabbing that occurred displayed some knowledge of anatomy. This killer thought out what they were going to do and made it happen. Why would a methodical and organized killer walk across neighbors yards? Most people never walk across yards when trying to find a house, its a violation of a social norm and it goes against the grain of most folks. This tells me the guy had a very high level of familiarity with the location and the Hunter's home.

The only people who ever walk through my yard are kids and high school age teenagers from the neighborhood.

Could this have actually been a teenager? Wittnesses stated him as being at least mid twenties but perhaps not. Could he have been a hitman wannabe hired by someone older, someone who found that more affordable than the $10,000 or so that I understand to be the going rate?

YellowDog
12-17-2010, 12:53 PM
I wonder how many neighbors actually claimed to have seen the stranger in the SUV?
If it was only one person, I'd be taking a strong hard look at that person. Since apparently no one has ever come forward about the identity of this person or the exact model or color of the SUV, could it be a figment of someone's imagination?

How can a brutal killer just vanish into thin air in the middle of the day in a well occupied area of the city?

I'm still not convinced it's not someone from right around that area. Any teenagers living in that area with a history of arrests for burglary?

Snick1946
12-17-2010, 03:15 PM
You would think that if people can get a petition together to oust the mayor, they could get one to reform OPD. It's just so disapointing. I'm sure it's tough on the detectives, which I am sure do care, to have to sit silently -- either by lack of evidence or otherwise.

I really wish there were strong forces pushing on OPD to solve this. I sent a letter to the mayor and governor, but never heard back. Not even a form letter.

Does the fact you never heard back- not even a routine acknowledgment of your concern- suggest something? I have contacted public officials in the past on other matters and usually get at least a token reply. That doesn't happen when it's about these murders. Sort of chilling if you think about it.

YellowDog
12-17-2010, 03:46 PM
I can't believe public officials not responding to mail or email. In most businesses wouldn't that would be considered insubordination?

waltzingmatilda
12-22-2010, 09:44 AM
Hi all. Just checking in for any updates after a long 2 weeks without computer connectivity! So glad to see that you all are coming up with great new ideas for sleuthing this case.

I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy and properous 2011. I also wish for this case to be solved in 2011 and justice served for Tom and Shirlee.

wm

YellowDog
12-30-2010, 12:18 PM
I wonder what time of the month the meters are read in that neighborhood and whether they are located at the front or in the back?

waltzingmatilda
12-31-2010, 05:16 PM
Snick, or anyone familiar with the Dundee neighborhood,....How visible are the house numbers from the street? Are the lawns spacious with trees and shrubbery and the homes set back aways, which would make it difficult to see the numbers on the house? Are the numbers marked on the curbs?

I am just trying to reason why the poi would be cutting thru neighbors' yards. It is such a 'teenager thing to do'! My gut is curious if he was cutting thru the lawns to get a better view of the address numbers. Any credible hitman or assasin would have already cased the area and would have known exactly which house he was targeting. IMO

So where does that leave us? The POI didn't seem to know the area, based on the evidence we have. (The reports of starting and stopping in the vehicle...The reports of cutting through lawns.)

I think this was someone on the periferal of Tom or Shirlee's lives who, for some reason, felt a need to exact revenge on one of the victims. "They" acted hastily, there had to be clues and evidence left behind. We just don't know what it is.

Tom being 'covered in blood' is a clue.
Why would someone do such a horrific thing to a boy of Tom's age? Or to a nice lady like Shirlee? But Tom being covered in blood indicates to me that someone wanted to be sure he was dead. It sounds like overkill to me. Whoever did this is an enraged madman!!!

MOO

wm

Snick1946
01-01-2011, 12:40 PM
First, a Happy New Year to everyone, and let's hope the new year will bring a solution to this maddening mystery.
I have visited the area a few times. House numbers are not real easy to see, even from the sidewalk. They are not painted on the curbs. I would also assume that OPD early on checked out then possibility of the man being seen being a meter reader. They don't come around in my area but do in older ones, such as Dundee.
Like YellowDog, I'd like to know how many wittnesses inputed on the description of the POI; if just one or two I'd be revisiting those people.
I keep coming back to a fact that has been commented on earlier. These were killings that apparently displayed medical skill and also apparently were carried out in a manner that so far has eluded attempts at solving the case. They took place in the home of then head of a Pathology department of a major university. Is that suggestive?
No I am not pointing fingers here. What I am saying is that maybe LE should be looking toward someone close to the Hunter family whom could have possessed medical skills needed to carry this off.

waltzingmatilda
01-02-2011, 10:25 AM
The description(s) of the olive skinned man's behavior make me think that he was searching to be sure he found the correct house.

I think a meter reader would be wearing identifiable attire, like a uniform. The readers in my town all wear a shirt with a logo on it and carry a hand held device.

Things we know about the poi...

He was seen in the neighborhood in the silver suv starting and stopping.

He parked away from the Hunter home and cut through neighbor's yards before arriving at the Hunter's front door.

His clothing was described both as a dark suit and a dark coat in news articles.

He was carrying an over the shoulder briefcase or laptop bag.

He was not seen leaving the Hunter home to our knowledge.

Let's see if we can brainstorm some ideas and add other facts we know to this list.

First, I am entertaining the idea that poi could have left the home thru the rear. How easy would it be for him to cut thru back lawns to return to his car? Isn't there a fence around the rear of the Hunter home?

Second, I think the purpose of the dark clothing was to camoflauge any blood evidence on his person. I wonder if LE checked the drains in the home for any blood evidence. He may have had some on his hands, face, and needed to wash up a bit before leaving the scene of the crime.

Third, I think the timing of these murders was deliberate. POI enters home shortly after Tom returns from school possibly thinking he would be home alone. This person knew enough about Tom to know his schedule and that his parents were not at home but didn't know enough about him to consider that the family housekeeper would be working that day. (I am still working along the theory that Tom was the target and Shirlee was in the wrong place at the wrong time based on what little evidence we have.)

This is MOO and my thoughts for today. I wish you all a wonderful 2011! (personally, I am glad that 2010 is over.)

best regards,
wm

Snick1946
01-02-2011, 12:22 PM
The description(s) of the olive skinned man's behavior make me think that he was searching to be sure he found the correct house.

I think a meter reader would be wearing identifiable attire, like a uniform. The readers in my town all wear a shirt with a logo on it and carry a hand held device.

Things we know about the poi...

He was seen in the neighborhood in the silver suv starting and stopping.

He parked away from the Hunter home and cut through neighbor's yards before arriving at the Hunter's front door.

His clothing was described both as a dark suit and a dark coat in news articles.

He was carrying an over the shoulder briefcase or laptop bag.

He was not seen leaving the Hunter home to our knowledge.

Let's see if we can brainstorm some ideas and add other facts we know to this list.

First, I am entertaining the idea that poi could have left the home thru the rear. How easy would it be for him to cut thru back lawns to return to his car? Isn't there a fence around the rear of the Hunter home?

Second, I think the purpose of the dark clothing was to camoflauge any blood evidence on his person. I wonder if LE checked the drains in the home for any blood evidence. He may have had some on his hands, face, and needed to wash up a bit before leaving the scene of the crime.

Third, I think the timing of these murders was deliberate. POI enters home shortly after Tom returns from school possibly thinking he would be home alone. This person knew enough about Tom to know his schedule and that his parents were not at home but didn't know enough about him to consider that the family housekeeper would be working that day. (I am still working along the theory that Tom was the target and Shirlee was in the wrong place at the wrong time based on what little evidence we have.)

This is MOO and my thoughts for today. I wish you all a wonderful 2011! (personally, I am glad that 2010 is over.)

best regards,
wm

Someone earlier pointed out that the pattern of walking across lawns is suggestive; a professional killer would not do this, it attracts attention. It is something often seen in young men, teens or a bit older. One thing puzzles me. If this were a stranger, how did he expect to be able to gain entry? Tom I am sure was not going to let a stranger in. From what I am told, Shirlee was attacked suddenly, from behind. So, she may not have even known the perp was in the house. Her son has told us she would never have let someone in, or even have gone to the door. So, how did he get in?
I think either Tom let him in because he was someone expected, or, he HAD A KEY.
Sit with that a minute; if so, how did he get one? Did he copy the key Shirlee had- if so, that takes us back to her family. Most likely unless she was the target of someone who knew her schedule and that she'd be there on an off day- this leads to someone with close ties to the Hunter family.

waltzingmatilda
01-03-2011, 12:06 PM
Does anyone have knowledge about whether Dr's. keep their keys on their person in a clinical setting? Or would they leave them in their office? I worked for a few Dr's. back in the day and they always left their keys in their office so that their pockets didn't jingle while working. Their offices were off limits unless I was sent there to fetch something. It would have been easy for a sneaky person in the office to take the keys and have copies made before the Dr's. lunch break or quitting time, IMO.

Friends/room-mates of the older Hunter brothers? It would make sense for the older siblings to have a key to the family home.

Someone connected to Shirlee? Were her keys labeled w/names or addresses of her clients for whom she cleaned? I believe I recall mentioning somewhere in this thread that I cleaned homes for a few summers while school was not in session. I had labels with the home address taped to each key on my ring (for obvious reasons). But now, and thinking from this perspective, I realize that was probably not a very good idea but who would consider such an innocent thing as a risk to one's safety?

Tom? I feel sure he had a key to the home but that's just speculation on my part. When my son was Tom's age, he received a key to the house and rode the bus home on days when our housekeeper was there. I would arrive home an hour or so later and he had always left the front door unlocked while she was there. Could Tom have felt a false sense of security with another adult present? Did he even enter thru the front door upon returning home from school? I am also curious about Tom's after school activities/classmates/etc. How would the killer know such a personal habit like leaving the door unlocked? Was he casing the residence?

Please understand that this is all speculation on my part. I am brainstorming ideas here.

wm

YellowDog
01-03-2011, 12:38 PM
Maybe the POI was cutting through the yards so the neighbors would think he was putting flyers on the doors or something like that.

Or maybe he was cutting through the yards so no one in the Hunter house would see him approaching up the front walk.

Maybe the Hunters didn't lock their doors when at home except at night before retiring.

waltzingmatilda
01-03-2011, 01:04 PM
Maybe the POI was cutting through the yards so the neighbors would think he was putting flyers on the doors or something like that.

Or maybe he was cutting through the yards so no one in the Hunter house would see him approaching up the front walk.

Maybe the Hunters didn't lock their doors when at home except at night before retiring.

Hello YD. Great brianstorming! I wonder if he was seen on any other porches. He could have just simply been going door to door to see if one was unlocked. But.....there was no theft reported from the Hunter home.

If he was posing by going door to door posting flyers, he may have been checking the KEY to fit door locks.

Or....Tom may have left the door unlocked. The killer entered...was surprised by Shirlee and attacked her. Tom comes running up the stairs to check on things, leaving his video game on pause, and is also attacked. The killer could have aborted any plans of theft after the murders and wanted to get out of there asap.

Darn, I wish we knew if he brought the knives with him or if the knives were from the Hunter residence because this changes things for me. If he brought the knives, then I think it was a targeted killing. If the knives were from the Hunter residence then it seems more spur of the moment....unless the killer was familiar with the Hunter home. All I know is what I read in a MSM article stating the killer 'left knives behind'. Kind of vague. Everything is so vague about this case. I wish LE would release more information.

MOO

wm

YellowDog
01-03-2011, 01:58 PM
But didn't one of the neighbors supposedly see someone letting him into the house that day?

waltzingmatilda
01-04-2011, 11:30 AM
But didn't one of the neighbors supposedly see someone letting him into the house that day?

I don't recall reading anywhere that neighbors saw 'someone' specific letting him into the house. It is possible this was an assumption on the neighbors part as they saw him enter the residence. If the house numbers are not clear from the street, then the neighbors may not have had a very clear view of the front door of the Hunter residence.

I wish I still had all my bookmarks with links for you all but they were lost when my laptop crashed. I would like to get a visual of the neighborhood. Maybe I'll look back in thread one. IIRC, someone kindly posted some maps there.

The lots in Dundee appear to be spacious and the homes are large.
Not faulting the neighbors who were aware enough to pay attention to the olive skinned man, I am questioning whether they could tell if someone actually opened the door from the inside of if the man entered of his own volition. There are instruments one can buy to 'bump a lock' but I don't recall reading anything about forced entry. So, that leaves us with an unlocked door or the perp had a key or someone inside let him in. (which Shirlee wouldn't do according to her son, and I agree having cleaned houses in the past myself)

MOO

wm

waltzingmatilda
01-05-2011, 04:45 PM
It is interesting to go back and read the first thread. Post #212 by proudmama at this link intrigues me......

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67963&page=9

wm

Snick1946
01-05-2011, 09:07 PM
It is interesting to go back and read the first thread. Post #212 by proudmama at this link intrigues me......

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67963&page=9

wm

I had some difficulty with the link so here is what I think was the part you felt important: (quoted an unnamed Omaha official who replied to a SWS member who expressed bewilderment as to why AMW was not utilized)

'The Police have an ongoing investigation in this case. I am not privy to the exact Police details, as to what/how they proceed ( nor do Councilmembers or Mayor) with the crime , this is strictly confidential and Police Investigator information only. However, based on this conversation with the Chief, he has indicated it is not in the best interests of solving this crime to have it aired in the public. If we truly want this crime solved, we need to trust the professionals who work this stuff and are highly trained. (( You should know the OPD has an above norm grade for solving such crimes, and this is according to the National Accreditation agency that rates such things- however, having said that, not all crimes are solved and some are far more difficult that others.))

The Police, as well as the Councilmembers really appreciate the pain this has left the families and the community, and you should be assured the Dept is working very hard on the issue. At this time, there are some leads that makes them believe it is not at all helpful to have it aired openly. This may change, but for now, that is the answer. xxx xxx, Ch of Staff, City Council.'

This was dated in mid 2009.

Does anyone blame some of us who smell a coverup? As in, they've known for at least two years pretty much what happened and don't want to risk exposing some institutions or indviduals?

These families need to raise hell. Enough is enough!

omaha
01-06-2011, 11:22 AM
I had some difficulty with the link so here is what I think was the part you felt important: (quoted an unnamed Omaha official who replied to a SWS member who expressed bewilderment as to why AMW was not utilized)

'The Police have an ongoing investigation in this case. I am not privy to the exact Police details, as to what/how they proceed ( nor do Councilmembers or Mayor) with the crime , this is strictly confidential and Police Investigator information only. However, based on this conversation with the Chief, he has indicated it is not in the best interests of solving this crime to have it aired in the public. If we truly want this crime solved, we need to trust the professionals who work this stuff and are highly trained. (( You should know the OPD has an above norm grade for solving such crimes, and this is according to the National Accreditation agency that rates such things- however, having said that, not all crimes are solved and some are far more difficult that others.))

The Police, as well as the Councilmembers really appreciate the pain this has left the families and the community, and you should be assured the Dept is working very hard on the issue. At this time, there are some leads that makes them believe it is not at all helpful to have it aired openly. This may change, but for now, that is the answer. xxx xxx, Ch of Staff, City Council.'

This was dated in mid 2009.

Does anyone blame some of us who smell a coverup? As in, they've known for at least two years pretty much what happened and don't want to risk exposing some institutions or indviduals?

These families need to raise hell. Enough is enough!

I agree with Snick. Even if there was something to that, I would only have supported that 3 months after, maybe 6 ... hell, even a year. But three years? Bull***** (pardon my french).

I'm starting to think they have nothing and blew it from the beginning. I think they're hoping they get lucky and they get a tip from someone. Hopefully they have some way of confirming such a tip.

waltzingmatilda
01-06-2011, 11:59 AM
Omaha, I agree with both you and snick. BTW, thanks snick for copying and pasting the post.

That response incensed me and I don't live in Omaha or know anyone involved in this case. The tone of the response was condescending, IMO.

I am approaching a serious subject here but bear with me, please. In many cases, affluent families are extended more courtesy than us regular Joe's in a murder investigation. The delay results in lost evidence which can never be retrieved. (thinking of the Jon Benet Ramsey case here which I have researched a bit, and also August Busch, IV)

I truly believe that whoever did this was someone on the perimeter of the Hunter family. Probably someone they wouldn't think could do such a thing. Just one year ago (approx) Lt. Kangar stated OPD is focusing on Hunter computer forensics. WTH? that is a long time to wait before considering the possibility that the killer could be someone connected to the family and looking for computer forensics. Heck, I go through two laptops a year!

Come On OPD! Get with it!!!

MOO

wm

YellowDog
01-06-2011, 10:38 PM
I think it's long past time for OPD to release a few clues to the public on this case. They sure aren't getting anywhere with it. One or two little clues might just jog someone's memory but the colder this case gets, the less likely that is to happen.

They've never even said whether or not the knives came from the house or were brought in by the killer. They've never said how many times each victim was stabbed and where the wounds were. They've never revealed anything they gleaned from interviewing the neighbors except what little was reported the very first few days after the murders.

Any chance of a new Police Chief in the near future?

Snick1946
01-07-2011, 11:41 AM
I think it's long past time for OPD to release a few clues to the public on this case. They sure aren't getting anywhere with it. One or two little clues might just jog someone's memory but the colder this case gets, the less likely that is to happen.

They've never even said whether or not the knives came from the house or were brought in by the killer. They've never said how many times each victim was stabbed and where the wounds were. They've never revealed anything they gleaned from interviewing the neighbors except what little was reported the very first few days after the murders.

Any chance of a new Police Chief in the near future?

Alex Hayes is police chief and he is an improvement over chief Busse who preceeded him. He is an African-American and is not part of the good old boy network. I think it was Busse who nixed cooperation with AMW; IMO he was looking for his next job and didnt want any bad publicity for OPD under his watch.
The more I read the reply the other WS member got from the Mayor's office the more incensed I get. There is NO civillian oversight of most OPD actions.
I have been thinking about writing chief Hayes about this case. Right now isn't a good time for it, with the shootings at Millard South; also we have a recall election for the mayor set for 1-25 and untilm then the city is going to be in upheaval. Downside is that I would risk revealing my identity to OPD, I wouldnt mention the WS discussion but I think they'd still make the connection. Writing anyone else in city government is a waste of effort. The reply our other member got is typical of the 'we must support our brave police' (and never question what they do) sort of response I have received.
There may be some things going on that might force OPD on some of these issues but not for awhile.

waltzingmatilda
01-07-2011, 01:26 PM
Alex Hayes is police chief and he is an improvement over chief Busse who preceeded him. He is an African-American and is not part of the good old boy network. I think it was Busse who nixed cooperation with AMW; IMO he was looking for his next job and didnt want any bad publicity for OPD under his watch.
The more I read the reply the other WS member got from the Mayor's office the more incensed I get. There is NO civillian oversight of most OPD actions.
I have been thinking about writing chief Hayes about this case. Right now isn't a good time for it, with the shootings at Millard South; also we have a recall election for the mayor set for 1-25 and untilm then the city is going to be in upheaval. Downside is that I would risk revealing my identity to OPD, I wouldnt mention the WS discussion but I think they'd still make the connection. Writing anyone else in city government is a waste of effort. The reply our other member got is typical of the 'we must support our brave police' (and never question what they do) sort of response I have received.
There may be some things going on that might force OPD on some of these issues but not for awhile.

It sounds to me like politicking is interfering with business as ususal in the local government and agencies there in Omaha.

If I were a resident of Omaha, I would be looking up some public records for elected officials....campaign contributions, etc. Unfortunately, my knowledge is limited to my home state and county.

Snick, thanks for sharing your perspective as a local.

wm

YellowDog
01-11-2011, 05:36 PM
One thing I found strange early on in this case was that both funerals were held the same day. It seems like each family would have wanted to support the other by attending their respective loved one's funeral. Why did they have them at conflicting times I wonder?

Snick1946
01-12-2011, 01:30 PM
One thing I found strange early on in this case was that both funerals were held the same day. It seems like each family would have wanted to support the other by attending their respective loved one's funeral. Why did they have them at conflicting times I wonder?

Mention has been made of the 'Solve the Thomas Hunter Murder' website, apparently this was put up by the Hunter family. This issue is addressed as follows there:

'Families Make Victims' Funeral Arrangements The families’ funerals were on the same day due to the availability of churches during the religious holidays'

One thing wrong with this; Shirlee's funeral was held in the chapel of a funeral home. Funeral services are never scheduled far in advance and I cannot think of any seasonal religous services that would be held in a mortuary.

I think there was and remains to be a lot of ill feeling between the two families. Shirlee's feels the Hunters are hiding something, Tom's family may blame her for possibly letting someone into the house or being careless, etc. The Hunter family did express condolences to Shirlee's family in a public statement. I am open to correction on this but I am told that The Shermans never got any card, note or call from Dr or Mrs Hunter. This aspect has always troubled me. It suggests one of the parties has some knowledge of the facts not open to the rest of us.

YellowDog
01-12-2011, 06:28 PM
What religious holiday would that be? I can't think of one that falls around March 13th.


Mention has been made of the 'Solve the Thomas Hunter Murder' website, apparently this was put up by the Hunter family. This issue is addressed as follows there:

'Families Make Victims' Funeral Arrangements The families’ funerals were on the same day due to the availability of churches during the religious holidays'

One thing wrong with this; Shirlee's funeral was held in the chapel of a funeral home. Funeral services are never scheduled far in advance and I cannot think of any seasonal religous services that would be held in a mortuary.

I think there was and remains to be a lot of ill feeling between the two families. Shirlee's feels the Hunters are hiding something, Tom's family may blame her for possibly letting someone into the house or being careless, etc. The Hunter family did express condolences to Shirlee's family in a public statement. I am open to correction on this but I am told that The Shermans never got any card, note or call from Dr or Mrs Hunter. This aspect has always troubled me. It suggests one of the parties has some knowledge of the facts not open to the rest of us.

omaha
01-12-2011, 08:36 PM
What religious holiday would that be? I can't think of one that falls around March 13th.

I know it isn't consistent every year, but could it have been Palm Sunday and Easter related events? Is there a way to see holidays from past years?

YellowDog
01-12-2011, 09:10 PM
Hi Omaha:
The murder was on March 13, 2008, Thursday. Good Friday was on March 21, 8 days later, and Easter was on March 23. Funerals are seldom held on Sunday though. I doubt if they waited 8 days to have the funeral.

omaha
01-13-2011, 05:09 PM
Hi Omaha:
The murder was on March 13, 2008, Thursday. Good Friday was on March 21, 8 days later, and Easter was on March 23. Funerals are seldom held on Sunday though. I doubt if they waited 8 days to have the funeral.

Good to know. How long does it usually take to get a body released in these kinds of investigations? Is it immediate?

I'm not familiar with religious holidays, anyone else think of anything it could have been?

Snick1946
01-13-2011, 09:21 PM
Good to know. How long does it usually take to get a body released in these kinds of investigations? Is it immediate?

I'm not familiar with religious holidays, anyone else think of anything it could have been?

Funerals were both held at 11AM on Wednesday March 19. Assumed what they referred to was impending Easter holidays. For a high profile case like this with all the rumors etc going round at the time, it seemed to me that the bodies were processed rather quickly. But I don't know.

waltzingmatilda
01-14-2011, 11:44 AM
So both funerals were held on Ash Wednesday. I can understand the church's concern over scheduling because events are held for AW, Maundy Thursday and Good Friday in Christian congregations.

However, I do not understand why this would be an issue for the funeral home where Shirlee's service was held. Did it take that many days to process and release the bodies to the families that it caused a rush to complete funeral arrangements before Easter?

I also find it a bit odd that personal condolences were not extended to the Sherman family by the Hunters. The murders did occur inside their home, after all. I haven't heard if condolences from the Sherman family were extended to the Hunter's. Perhaps that is a question that Shirlee's son can clear up if he joins us again.

I am thinking about investigating the FOIA procedures for requesting info for this case. Do we know if there was a search warrant for the computer forensics that Det. Kangar mentioned in last years update?

I don't have knowledge but know some sleuths who have requested info thru FOIA and feel they would be happy to guide and advise me. Here are some recent examples.....

*A news outlet in Hailey Dunn's case used FOIA and received documents of the search warrants.....the LE named a POI in the case after the documents became public.
*A WS friend used FOIA for documents on a cold case from the FBI and received them. Some stuff was blacked out though...don't know why.
*A fellow sleuth from a case I follow in SC requested info on the case from SLED thru FOIA. Instead of sending him the info, LE came forward with the information in a news conference.

Perhaps it might put some pressure on OPD. What are your collective thoughts on this idea?

All MOO.

wm

Snick1946
01-14-2011, 04:48 PM
So both funerals were held on Ash Wednesday. I can understand the church's concern over scheduling because events are held for AW, Maundy Thursday and Good Friday in Christian congregations.

However, I do not understand why this would be an issue for the funeral home where Shirlee's service was held. Did it take that many days to process and release the bodies to the families that it caused a rush to complete funeral arrangements before Easter?

I also find it a bit odd that personal condolences were not extended to the Sherman family by the Hunters. The murders did occur inside their home, after all. I haven't heard if condolences from the Sherman family were extended to the Hunter's. Perhaps that is a question that Shirlee's son can clear up if he joins us again.

thinking about investigating the FOIA procedures for requesting info for this case. Do we know if there was a search warrant for the computer forensics that Det. Kangar mentioned in last years update?

I don't have knowledge but know some sleuths who have requested info thru FOIA and feel they would be happy to guide and advise me. Here are some recent examples.....

*A news outlet in Hailey Dunn's case used FOIA and received documents of the search warrants.....the LE named a POI in the case after the documents became public.
*A WS friend used FOIA for documents on a cold case from the FBI and received them. Some stuff was blacked out though...don't know why.
*A fellow sleuth from a case I follow in SC requested info on the case from SLED thru FOIA. Instead of sending him the info, LE came forward with the information in a news conference.

Perhaps it might put some pressure on OPD. What are your collective thoughts on this idea?

All MOO.

wm

WM, can a private person file such a request? Is there some statute limiting availability of information on an open murder case?
Also could someone file a request to see if OPD ever actually requested such information?

omaha
01-14-2011, 05:14 PM
WM, can a private person file such a request? Is there some statute limiting availability of information on an open murder case?
Also could someone file a request to see if OPD ever actually requested such information?

I would love to find this out. My guess is that they couldn't release anything if the investigation is "active". Perhaps contact the Attorney General's office to ask? I bet even if you paid the fee to file, they'd likely only return a list of people whom have requested, if any. Anyone know someone who would know? Is there a reporter at the World Herald who would know?

waltzingmatilda
01-14-2011, 05:31 PM
WM, can a private person file such a request? Is there some statute limiting availability of information on an open murder case?
Also could someone file a request to see if OPD ever actually requested such information?

Snick, I do know private citizens can file such a request as I know 2 sleuths who have done so. One received the info requested and the other one didn't receive info but the LE released the info he requested to the public instead.

The first case I mentioned is an old cold case but is still open and the FBI sent the documents requested. (our fellow sleuth and friend, Bern, filed this one)

The 2nd case referenced was for infomation on evidence found (a pair of sunglasses) in the Drexel case in SC. It was reported that the glasses were sent to the state crime lab......and then nothing for months. It was only after fellow sleuth (mlatta) sent the FOIA request that LE made the info public.

I am just not sure of the requirements for requesting such info as I have never done such a thing so would need to study up a bit. I do know if there were any search warrants that are not sealed that we can request the info. The media in the Hailey Dunn case made a FOIA request for recent search warrants and the info within was eye opening! This is why I asked if any search warrants for evidence were issued in the Hunter/Sherman case. I would think that if computers were taken for forensics that a search warrant was issued, unless they were given to LE by the family voluntarily, then there would be no such warrants.

I don't mean to sound like a rebel rouser, but sometimes it helps to rattle the cage a bit to get a response, so to speak.

MOO

wm

ETA I also know that if the autopsy reports are not sealed that they can be obtained thru FOIA, as far as I know. The AR's in the case of the Ok girls double murder were chock full of info for amateur profiling. We were able to deduce which girl we thought was the target. She was shot in the face and the genitals.... the other girl seemed to be shot randomly from a further distance, FWIW.

Snick1946
01-17-2011, 06:18 PM
I intend to persue the FOIA discussion but meantime wanted to post a summary of what the FBI is alleged to have done. Source on this is the 'Solve the Thomas Hunter' site:

•FBI handled computer forensics.
•FBI handled lie-detector, polygraph tests on dozens of people involved in the case.
•FBI handled the phone records of all involved.
•FBI handled killer profiling.

Bear in mind this is not confirmed but it does sound like the FBI gave this case a going over. It seems unusual that they apparently came up empty after all this. Or is this that unusual...

waltzingmatilda
01-17-2011, 07:29 PM
They did give it a going over. I betcha there are clues in this evidence somewhere but they just don't know it yet. I am disappointed there is no mention of taking in Tom's video game to be checked out. If Tom was playing with someone online where players are able to converse thru headsets, what reason did Tom give for pausing the game? Was it paused in the middle of the game?

IDK why I keep going back to that darn video game.

MOO

wm

Snick1946
01-17-2011, 11:19 PM
They did give it a going over. I betcha there are clues in this evidence somewhere but they just don't know it yet. I am disappointed there is no mention of taking in Tom's video game to be checked out. If Tom was playing with someone online where players are able to converse thru headsets, what reason did Tom give for pausing the game? Was it paused in the middle of the game?

IDK why I keep going back to that darn video game.

MOO

wm

IDK either, but so do I.

I wish we knew what game he was playing. I understand a lot of kids today are into Halo- I doubt that was available on a game console format in 3-08. He was apparently playing an X Box.

I sometimes think that darn game may be the key to unlock this mystery. I also think OPD and possibly the FBI never mined that for what it was worth. About six months after the crime I passed a tip onto OPD suggesting they access his Xbox to at least see if they could tell WHEN he paused the game. If nothing else that could pinpoint the time he was interrupted. As almost always I got no response.

It has been suggested that these murders were some sort of role-playing acting out of some scene in a fantasy game. I question if LE ever skimmed even the surface of all of this.

waltzingmatilda
01-18-2011, 10:20 AM
IDK either, but so do I.

I wish we knew what game he was playing. I understand a lot of kids today are into Halo- I doubt that was available on a game console format in 3-08. He was apparently playing an X Box.

I sometimes think that darn game may be the key to unlock this mystery. I also think OPD and possibly the FBI never mined that for what it was worth. About six months after the crime I passed a tip onto OPD suggesting they access his Xbox to at least see if they could tell WHEN he paused the game. If nothing else that could pinpoint the time he was interrupted. As almost always I got no response.

It has been suggested that these murders were some sort of role-playing acting out of some scene in a fantasy game. I question if LE ever skimmed even the surface of all of this.

~above respectfully BBM~

I think so too snick! I had no idea of the interactive capabilities of gaming systems til last year when I observed SIL playing and talking on those headphones. Some of these games have modums and wireless capabilities from what I understand. Like a computer, players' records are stored in the device.

If LE didn't take it in for forensics in the beginning, I feel it was out of ignorance of these games' capabilities and never occured to them that helpful info could be stored on there. (just as I was ignorant about it)

Still, it seems to me that would be the most important piece of evidence since it was possibly the last thing Tom was doing before he was killed. Shirlee and Tom were the last to see each other in the real world and they are both deceased. I view the last person to interact with Tom in the gaming world as the last person to 'see' him.

So much time has now passed that there's no telling where that system is now if LE doesn't have it. It could have been passed along to one of the H brother's or simply tossed as the technology changes rapidly. It wouldn't be as desirable in 2011 as it was in 2008, IYKWIM.

There is a good chance that valuable evidence has been lost if LE didn't retrieve it in the beginning of the investigation. MOO

wm

YellowDog
01-18-2011, 04:04 PM
Many people do not turn their computers off these days. Tom could have even put the computer on "pause" the night before. It would be helpful to know when he did "pause" it.

YellowDog
01-18-2011, 04:06 PM
Does anyone recall how much time elapsed from the time Tom got home from school until the time the stranger was reported entering the house? Did he even have time to go into the basement and play a game?

waltzingmatilda
01-19-2011, 11:39 AM
Many people do not turn their computers off these days. Tom could have even put the computer on "pause" the night before. It would be helpful to know when he did "pause" it.

This is true YellowDog. It is unclear to me whether Tom was playing on a computer or a gaming system.

I will say this, however. My son came home from middle school every day and played on his gaming system as he was allowed an hour each day to 'wind down' before eating a snack and beginning his homework. He could leave his game paused even when we switched to tv mode when dad came home.

I wish we knew where Tom's bedroom is located in the home. Is it in the basement?

As far as the time difference form when Tom arrived home from school and the POI arrived, I'll go back to thread one and see if I can find one of the early articles to clarify.

All MOO

wm

YellowDog
01-19-2011, 08:26 PM
I believe the news reported Tom got home shortly after 3:00 PM and the stranger was seen in the neighborhood around 3:20. Not much time between the two being seen. I wonder if the killer could have seen Tom get on the school bus and followed the bus to where he got off. He could have then sat in his car giving Tom time to go inside and get settled in before he walked up to the door. If this is what happened, I'd say the killer was after Tom, but did not know where he lived.

waltzingmatilda
01-20-2011, 09:28 AM
I believe the news reported Tom got home shortly after 3:00 PM and the stranger was seen in the neighborhood around 3:20. Not much time between the two being seen. I wonder if the killer could have seen Tom get on the school bus and followed the bus to where he got off. He could have then sat in his car giving Tom time to go inside and get settled in before he walked up to the door. If this is what happened, I'd say the killer was after Tom, but did not know where he lived.

You are right once again YD! :)

According to True Crime Diary, Tom was seen arriving home around 3 pm and the man in the CRV was seen stopping and starting around 3:20.

http://www.truecrimediary.com/index.cfm?page=cases&id=51

and from this article.....

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/17003921.html

Not even the race and age of the person of interest are clear. Neighbors offered varying descriptions.

Even if Tom came straight inside and began eating his after school snack before resuming the play from the previous evening, I'd still like to know if LE checked out the other gamers in the virtual world who played with Tom.

Sleuths collected a wealth of information in the Zahra Baker case from sleuthing the gaming sites that her Dad and faux step mom played. (sm and dad met playing this game and sm went to Australia and married Z's dad while married to another man, she's been charged with bigamy) One of our very own sleuths had gamed on the same site and interacted with the Bakers and contacted Hickory Police with info. The popo was very grateful and our sleuth was mentioned in search warrents which were released.

I just wish OPD would throw us a new tidbit to sleuth because we might actually be helpful in researching facts.

Where has that (nice looking:innocent:) Lt. Kangar been lately?

MOO

wm

YellowDog
01-20-2011, 04:38 PM
You know the more I think about it, the more plausible it sounds. If the killer had it in for one of the parents for some reason, didn't even know Tom, but wanted revenge, he could have had someone point Tom out to him, watched Tom leave school and get on the bus, follow the bus to where Tom got off, waited for him to enter the house so he'd know where he lived, gone to the house to kill the boy not knowing their would be a housekeeper there and been forced to kill the housekeeper to eliminate any witnesses.

This is really the only scenario I've been able to come up with that sounds plausible.

I wish we knew how much of a struggle there was in the house that day. If the guy in the SUV was the killer, he had to act extremely fast to enter the house and kill two people in such a short period of time.

It had to have been a revenge killing of some kind. There was no robbery.

waltzingmatilda
01-20-2011, 07:25 PM
YD, I agree with you that Tom was probably the target and the killer didn't know Shirlee was at the residence. Therefore, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I respectfullly disagree regarding the killer committing the murders in a short period of time. The POI arrived at approx. 3:20 pm. Dr. Bill Hunter arrived home in the 5 o' clock hour. (sorry I can't remember the exact time but will search for a link)

There have been no official reports of witnesses' accounts of the man leaving the Hunter residence. Pure speculation on my part but the killer could have been in the H's home for over an hour before Dr Hunter returned home from work, based on the times we have. (which isn't much)

WHY didn't the neighbors see the POI leave the residence? This puzzles me.

I do agree this was a revenge killing!

Anyway, MOO for today.

wm

YellowDog
01-21-2011, 11:46 AM
It is strange that whoever saw the stranger and the SUV didn't bother to keep an eye on things until the car was gone. We don't even know if there was a huge struggle in the house of if both victims were caught off guard and killer. We don't know whether either of them was bound or not.

waltzingmatilda
01-21-2011, 11:59 AM
NE Attorney General site re FOIA.....

http://www.ago.ne.gov/public/publicrecords.htm

Any assistance/ advice/ suggestions are greatly appreciated. Law jargon is not my forte so I am open to everybody's thoughts.

Here's a few links regarding a case in OK as an example.....

"To say that it might interfere with the prosecution, I know, sounds good when you say it to the public," Senat said. "But on the flip side, it could also help us know that they're not doing their job."

http://www.koco.com/news/26003147/detail.html

"We can't. We told them, 'Legally, we can't,'" Prater said. "The medical examiners' reports are public information when they're put in a final form. Those we disagree with the attorney general's opinion, they're public documents."

http://www.koco.com/news/25912631/detail.html

It has been almost 3 years since Tom and Shirlee were murdered so I would think the ME reports for these murders would be 'in final form' by now.

God bless the Hunter and Sherman families. It must be HE!! for them to have no answers after all this time. EVery day I think of young Thomas, the 'baby' of the Hunters' 4 boys and I think of my own son and his trials and tribulations at that age...

And of Shirlee, the grandma and matriarch of the Sherman family who worked hard at an honest living by cleaning homes, I identify with her as I cleaned homes during summer break when I wasn't teaching.

IDK why, but I just can't give up on this case ever being solved.

MOO

wm

waltzingmatilda
01-21-2011, 02:38 PM
YD, I agree with you that Tom was probably the target and the killer didn't know Shirlee was at the residence. Therefore, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I respectfullly disagree regarding the killer committing the murders in a short period of time. The POI arrived at approx. 3:20 pm. Dr. Bill Hunter arrived home in the 5 o' clock hour. (sorry I can't remember the exact time but will search for a link)

There have been no official reports of witnesses' accounts of the man leaving the Hunter residence. Pure speculation on my part but the killer could have been in the H's home for over an hour before Dr Hunter returned home from work, based on the times we have. (which isn't much)

WHY didn't the neighbors see the POI leave the residence? This puzzles me.

I do agree this was a revenge killing!

Anyway, MOO for today.

wm

Quoting my own post to add to the timeline...

Police say that William Hunter found the bodies at 5:48 p.m. and investigators responded to the home at 303 N. 54th Street around 6 p.m.

waltzingmatilda
01-21-2011, 02:47 PM
YD, I agree with you that Tom was probably the target and the killer didn't know Shirlee was at the residence. Therefore, she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I respectfullly disagree regarding the killer committing the murders in a short period of time. The POI arrived at approx. 3:20 pm. Dr. Bill Hunter arrived home in the 5 o' clock hour. (sorry I can't remember the exact time but will search for a link)

There have been no official reports of witnesses' accounts of the man leaving the Hunter residence. Pure speculation on my part but the killer could have been in the H's home for over an hour before Dr Hunter returned home from work, based on the times we have. (which isn't much)

WHY didn't the neighbors see the POI leave the residence? This puzzles me.

I do agree this was a revenge killing!

Anyway, MOO for today.

wm

Quoting my own post to add to the timeline...

Police say that William Hunter found the bodies at 5:48 p.m. and investigators responded to the home at 303 N. 54th Street around 6 p.m.

http://www.wowt.com/news/headlines/16658516.html


3:00 pm: Tom was seen arriving home by witnesses.

3:20 pm: POI seen stopping and starting in his vehicle int the Dundee neighborhood.

5:48 pm: Dr Bill Hunter finds the bodies upon returning home from work.

What is missing here?

wm

YellowDog
01-21-2011, 08:44 PM
I wonder what time Shirlee normally left the Hunter home? That might narrow the timeline down somewhat. I do remember reading that Dr. Hunter was surprised to see her car there when he arrived home.

Snick1946
01-22-2011, 02:35 PM
Quoting my own post to add to the timeline...

Police say that William Hunter found the bodies at 5:48 p.m. and investigators responded to the home at 303 N. 54th Street around 6 p.m.

http://www.wowt.com/news/headlines/16658516.html


3:00 pm: Tom was seen arriving home by witnesses.

3:20 pm: POI seen stopping and starting in his vehicle int the Dundee neighborhood.

5:48 pm: Dr Bill Hunter finds the bodies upon returning home from work.

What is missing here?

wm

Approximately 90 minutes. From about 3:25 until 5:45. Plenty of time for the perp to have gone through the house looking for something he was trying to retreive and also for him to have changed his clothes after cleaning up. On the other end of things, plenty of time for him to have had some interaction with either Tom or Shirlee after which things went bad.
Most cleaning persons try to be gone by the time the employers arrive home so I assume Shirlee would under normal circumstances left about 4:30 or so.

omaha
01-24-2011, 11:17 AM
Approximately 90 minutes. From about 3:25 until 5:45. Plenty of time for the perp to have gone through the house looking for something he was trying to retreive and also for him to have changed his clothes after cleaning up. On the other end of things, plenty of time for him to have had some interaction with either Tom or Shirlee after which things went bad.
Most cleaning persons try to be gone by the time the employers arrive home so I assume Shirlee would under normal circumstances left about 4:30 or so.

I wish we could know what day and time Shirlee normally came to the house.

omaha
01-24-2011, 03:48 PM
I wish we could know what day and time Shirlee normally came to the house.

Also, do we know if the time Tom was seen was the normal home from school time? Or do could he have been at a friends house before hand?

YellowDog
01-24-2011, 05:52 PM
Approximately 90 minutes. From about 3:25 until 5:45. Plenty of time for the perp to have gone through the house looking for something he was trying to retreive and also for him to have changed his clothes after cleaning up. On the other end of things, plenty of time for him to have had some interaction with either Tom or Shirlee after which things went bad.
Most cleaning persons try to be gone by the time the employers arrive home so I assume Shirlee would under normal circumstances left about 4:30 or so.

It would be more like 2 hours and 20 minutes, wouldn't it? That's time to look around a lot.

I can't believe none of the neighbors knew approximately what time the SUV was no longer sitting on their street.

Snick1946
01-24-2011, 11:55 PM
It would be more like 2 hours and 20 minutes, wouldn't it? That's time to look around a lot.

I can't believe none of the neighbors knew approximately what time the SUV was no longer sitting on their street.

That's right, YD. It was over two hours from the time he was seen until Dr Hunter arrived home. A lot can happen in that time frame. Also your point about the car parked all that time is interesting. You have to wonder, could he have had someone else in the car with him or been dropped off with the other person driving? It continues to boggle my mind that he stabbed two people with throat wounds and was able to apparently exit the premises with nothing seeming out of the ordinary.
I wonder if OPD checked for signs that he may have used a bathroom to clean up or even take a shower before leaving.
This guy was good.. real good. You gotta wonder...

waltzingmatilda
01-25-2011, 12:32 PM
I wish we could know what day and time Shirlee normally came to the house.

You and I both!

This is MOO and speculation but if Shirlee only worked for the H's one day of the week, then I suspect that she was there for a full day....morning to afternoon. I based this opinion on the size of the home along with the fact that a family lived there and both Mom and Dad Hunter have demanding careers. It would take a full 9-5 day to give it a good cleaning, IMO.

Also, it is common courtesy for housekeepers to finish their work and have vacated the residence before the client returns home from work. I understand why BH was surprised Shirlee's car was still in the driveway.

What bothers me is that I don't think the poi knew Shirlee would be there that day but knew Tom would be there. This is why I think this person was in the periferal of Tom's life.....therefore my thoughts on the gaming connection....someone Tom knew but didn't really know.

Omaha, forgive me if I am mistaken, but was it your website where a question was posted which read, "Why did this crime occur on the one day of the week that Shirlee was scheduled to work fo the Hunter's?" or something to that effect. I had not read this anywhere else. Can you elaborate on this information if you feel comfortable doing so? TIA

All MOO

wm

omaha
01-25-2011, 06:38 PM
I'm with you WM. I did see that on the website, but didn't know what to make of it. I can't find who posted it, there's no contact info, I think we assumed it was set up by the Hunters, but perhaps friends of the Hunters? There is some interesting things in there that I haven't seen elsewhere.


You and I both!

This is MOO and speculation but if Shirlee only worked for the H's one day of the week, then I suspect that she was there for a full day....morning to afternoon. I based this opinion on the size of the home along with the fact that a family lived there and both Mom and Dad Hunter have demanding careers. It would take a full 9-5 day to give it a good cleaning, IMO.

Also, it is common courtesy for housekeepers to finish their work and have vacated the residence before the client returns home from work. I understand why BH was surprised Shirlee's car was still in the driveway.

What bothers me is that I don't think the poi knew Shirlee would be there that day but knew Tom would be there. This is why I think this person was in the periferal of Tom's life.....therefore my thoughts on the gaming connection....someone Tom knew but didn't really know.

Omaha, forgive me if I am mistaken, but was it your website where a question was posted which read, "Why did this crime occur on the one day of the week that Shirlee was scheduled to work fo the Hunter's?" or something to that effect. I had not read this anywhere else. Can you elaborate on this information if you feel comfortable doing so? TIA

All MOO

wm

omaha
01-25-2011, 06:39 PM
I really hope that coming up on year THREE now, that maybe it will be back in the news. Perhaps the police will get back out there in March…

waltzingmatilda
01-26-2011, 08:03 AM
Thank you for clarifying omaha. I haven't visited the site since my laptop crashed and I lost all my links. (should have done a backup, lesson learned the hard way,lol) Surely, OPD will make some statement on the 3 yr anniversary. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I am posting a link that isn't related to this case, yet it has some valuable information on familial DNA which we have discussed here.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2011/jan/06/new-virginia-dna-searches-possible-ar-755967/

Heck, if Denver, CO is giving the software away for free maybe OPD should jump on that bandwagon.

OT Kudos to Dr and Mrs Harrington for being proactive for changes in VA after their beautiful daughter was brutally murdered. I cannot imagine the pain of these parents like the Hunters and the Harringtons whose young ones lives are snatched away too soon by lunatics.

MOO

wm

omaha
01-26-2011, 06:58 PM
This is great link, thanks WM!


Thank you for clarifying omaha. I haven't visited the site since my laptop crashed and I lost all my links. (should have done a backup, lesson learned the hard way,lol) Surely, OPD will make some statement on the 3 yr anniversary. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I am posting a link that isn't related to this case, yet it has some valuable information on familial DNA which we have discussed here.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2011/jan/06/new-virginia-dna-searches-possible-ar-755967/

Heck, if Denver, CO is giving the software away for free maybe OPD should jump on that bandwagon.

OT Kudos to Dr and Mrs Harrington for being proactive for changes in VA after their beautiful daughter was brutally murdered. I cannot imagine the pain of these parents like the Hunters and the Harringtons whose young ones lives are snatched away too soon by lunatics.

MOO

wm

Snick1946
01-26-2011, 08:12 PM
Thank you for clarifying omaha. I haven't visited the site since my laptop crashed and I lost all my links. (should have done a backup, lesson learned the hard way,lol) Surely, OPD will make some statement on the 3 yr anniversary. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I am posting a link that isn't related to this case, yet it has some valuable information on familial DNA which we have discussed here.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2011/jan/06/new-virginia-dna-searches-possible-ar-755967/

Heck, if Denver, CO is giving the software away for free maybe OPD should jump on that bandwagon.

OT Kudos to Dr and Mrs Harrington for being proactive for changes in VA after their beautiful daughter was brutally murdered. I cannot imagine the pain of these parents like the Hunters and the Harringtons whose young ones lives are snatched away too soon by lunatics.

MOO

wm

I wonder if this link ought to be emailed to Lt. Kanger? I respect him and he is probably aware of this but it wouldn't hurt.
One point: this whole familial DNA thing is in no way any attempt to imply some blood relative of either victim was involved. But, if OPD managed to extract ANY DNA from the crime scene of the perp it would greatly help in narrowing down the suspect list.

YellowDog
01-27-2011, 12:25 PM
I would think the family members of both victims would welcome providing their DNA to eliminate any doubts people might have about them.

omaha
01-27-2011, 12:41 PM
I wonder if this link ought to be emailed to Lt. Kanger? I respect him and he is probably aware of this but it wouldn't hurt.
One point: this whole familial DNA thing is in no way any attempt to imply some blood relative of either victim was involved. But, if OPD managed to extract ANY DNA from the crime scene of the perp it would greatly help in narrowing down the suspect list.

Or Chief Hayes.

Snick1946
01-27-2011, 10:32 PM
Or Chief Hayes.

I am mulling sending a letter to Chief Hayes with a copy to the Mayor's office. It would be brief and to the point, pointing out the three years that have gone by, the need for release of more information and requesting that they reconsider not cooperating with AMW. Mention could also be made of the DNA issue, I have no idea if they even got any from the killer or not.

The families of these victims deserve some closure.

waltzingmatilda
02-01-2011, 10:01 AM
Snick, Please keep us posted if you get a response from Chief Hayes. I saw that OPD has made an arrest in the missing Brazilian family. Way to go OPD!

I'm posting this link as an FYI since we[ve been discussing DNA. The state of North Carolina has a new law in effect requiring DNA collection at the time of arrest for felony charges. NC is not wussy footing around waiting on a conviction are they? Also, this is partially paid for by federal funds!

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/01/959720/police-to-take-dna-samples.html


Starting today, sheriff's offices and police departments will gather DNA from certain arrestees by collecting cells from inside their cheeks. The SBI will analyze the DNA and send the results to state and national DNA databases. If an arrestee isn't convicted or the case is dismissed, the sample may be removed.

It's not without controversy though.
~ read more info at above link~

wm

YellowDog
02-02-2011, 10:12 AM
As far as taking DNA samples from family members in murder cases, wouldn't they have to be willing for this to happen unless they had been arrested for something?

Snick1946
02-02-2011, 10:16 AM
Breaking news this AM, I will post the article from the OWH then follow jup later today with other linkas and comments:

A pathologist who attended medical school in Omaha — and who was interviewed by police in connection with two unsolved Dundee homicides — is now the subject of an inquiry by Canadian authorities.

They are reviewing the accuracy of autopsies performed by Dr. Michael Belenky, who left his post last month as assistant chief medical examiner in Calgary.

Belenky's name surfaced in the investigation of the March 2008 Omaha slayings of Thomas Hunter, 11, and Shirlee Sherman, 57, the Hunter family's housekeeper, the Calgary Herald reported.

Omaha homicide detectives interviewed Belenky about two years ago in Calgary. Omaha police said Belenky is one of at least 10 people they have looked at in connection with the stabbing deaths.

They have said they don't consider him a suspect or person of interest.

Dr. William Hunter, Thomas Hunter's father, is a professor of pathology at Creighton University Medical Center. He is the former director of the residency program for pathology at Creighton.

Belenky was one of Hunter's residents before leaving the program in the summer of 2007. Belenky previously was a pathology student at the University of Nebraska Medical Center.

At the time of the killings, Belenky worked as assistant medical examiner in Pittsburgh.

Dr. Hunter has repeatedly told The World-Herald he does not believe Belenky was responsible for the slayings.

“We do not have any suspicions about Mike being involved,” Hunter said Tuesday. “I felt I got along with him rather cordially. He was what I would consider a solid resident.”


Contact the writer: 402-444-1056, john.ferak@owh.com

http://omaha.com/article/20110202/NEWS97/702029911/0


This was a lead story last night on CBC radio in Calgary, I have an internet radio and heard the story, they were quoting Dr Hunter, etc. Strange feeling
to hear this getting international coverage. More soon..

colette
02-02-2011, 10:40 AM
Dr Hunter says:
“My family has had no personal suspicions that any of our residents are involved — including Belenky,” Hunter told the Herald.

According to the health department, Belenky was a resident for two years and four months — but left before finishing the program.

Hunter said Belenky decided to switch his specialty from anatomical and clinical pathology to forensic pathology and moved to Pennsylvania when he got a fellowship position in his new discipline.

“He did reasonably well (at Creighton). He was a good, solid resident,” said Hunter.

I wonder how long after the murders did he leave....

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Calgary+pathologist+connected+double+slaying+inves tigation/4206015/story.html#ixzz1CoQtVnjZ

colette
02-02-2011, 10:46 AM
Oh here it is, he left before the murders but was working in Pittsburg at time of murders.

Belenky was one of Hunter's residents before leaving the program in the summer of 2007. Belenky previously was a pathology student at the University of Nebraska Medical Center.

At the time of the killings, Belenky worked as assistant medical examiner in Pittsburgh.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20110202/NEWS97/702029911/1014


oh snick had it in her link too..

waltzingmatilda
02-02-2011, 10:58 AM
Great news! I am so glad to hear OPD is moving this case along!

This is mind boggling and it's just sinking in. Many of us have felt a CU connection for a while now! I feel sure that OPD has confirmed whether MB was at work in Pittsburgh on the day of the murders and tracked his movements, etc.

Where is he now that he quit the job in Alberta I wonder?

MOO

wm

Snick1946
02-02-2011, 10:58 AM
Link to an article in the Edmonton Journal:

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Calgary+pathologist+connected+double+slaying+inves tigation/4206015/story.html?cid=megadrop_story

This represents a major news story in Alberta, even if no link exists in the Omaha killings. This man is being accused of falsifhying pathology reports some of which resulted in possible wrongful convictions.

The RCMP is involved and I have much more confidence in them than in OPD; I would hope they have him under close watch as he is a flight risk IMO. I think he still has a Russian passport.

waltzingmatilda
02-02-2011, 11:19 AM
I sure sounds like Dr H has no reason to feel suspicious of MB. Dr H may have pizzed this guy off and not even known he did so. Tom and Shirlee were murdered less than a year after his departure from CU. That's months of simmering emotions, cunning, plotting and planning (IF he is our perp) . This scenario seems quite different from most University related murders where the disturbed student goes on a gun rampage on campus.

Two thoughts about this potential POI. One, he is obviously very intelligent...Two, he is from another culture. Something that is not a big deal to US citizens MAY be taken as a slight in other cultures. I'll try and do a bit o research on the subject.

This is all MOO

wm

colette
02-02-2011, 12:00 PM
“Other detectives have spoken to him. That doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a suspect. There’s been a lot of people in different locations that our investigators have talked to in that case, so he’s one of them because he did know Dr. Hunter and was in town at the time,” Pecha said.

OK he was in town at the time...

http://www.calgarysun.com/news/alberta/2011/02/02/17121046.html

omaha
02-02-2011, 12:00 PM
I sure sounds like Dr H has no reason to feel suspicious of MB. Dr H may have pizzed this guy off and not even known he did so. Tom and Shirlee were murdered less than a year after his departure from CU. That's months of simmering emotions, cunning, plotting and planning (IF he is our perp) . This scenario seems quite different from most University related murders where the disturbed student goes on a gun rampage on campus.

Two thoughts about this potential POI. One, he is obviously very intelligent...Two, he is from another culture. Something that is not a big deal to US citizens MAY be taken as a slight in other cultures. I'll try and do a bit o research on the subject.

This is all MOO

wm

Interesting to note that in the OWH article, it says he was interviewed 2 Years ago. This jives with the rumors around town at the time.

What I found VERY interesting is that despite the hubbub about this guy, they are STILL going somewhere ELSE to interview people -- and not internationally.

Also, that they at least very seriously looked at around 10 people. Assume those are at least some of the people they lie-detected.

Three cheers for more press!

waltzingmatilda
02-02-2011, 12:20 PM
Interesting to note that in the OWH article, it says he was interviewed 2 Years ago. This jives with the rumors around town at the time.

What I found VERY interesting is that despite the hubbub about this guy, they are STILL going somewhere ELSE to interview people -- and not internationally.

Also, that they at least very seriously looked at around 10 people. Assume those are at least some of the people they lie-detected.

Three cheers for more press!

Yes! yes! three cheers for more press!

Omaha, do you think this guy could possibly be a red herring?

Also, have you any idea how many have been lie detected in this case? It's cool if you do not know or don't wish to answer. My curiosity gets the best of me sometimes so I cannot help but ask. TIA

wm

omaha
02-02-2011, 12:41 PM
Yes! yes! three cheers for more press!

Omaha, do you think this guy could possibly be a red herring?

Also, have you any idea how many have been lie detected in this case? It's cool if you do not know or don't wish to answer. My curiosity gets the best of me sometimes so I cannot help but ask. TIA

wm

I know it was mentioned on that external website, but it was not specific, in terms of who or how many were tested. Very curious.

I can definitely see the resemblance to the sketch, but I have been seeing a resemblance a lot, I think I'm looking for it. And it definitely might be our guy.

Certain things definitely fit, and I think the med student angle has been very compelling from the beginning. I hope that 2 years after interviewing him they would have some sort of evidence by now.

I want them to find the killers as soon as possible, and even if he's not the guy, I hope this press and bringing him in for more questioning may lead to information that gets the killer.

Snick1946
02-02-2011, 12:48 PM
Heres a link to another article, this one has a video:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Calgary+pathologist+connected+double+slaying+inves tigation/4206015/story.html

I was looking for a link on this papers website to email the reporter up there a link to our discussion. If anyone has time this morning, maybe you could do that, thanks.

waltzingmatilda
02-02-2011, 12:50 PM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67963&page=11

I am linking this page from the first thread. Our WS poster, Ryuzaki, mentioned a Russian male connected to the H family 'in a wierd way'. 'R', I wish you would come back and elaborate on this for us, considering this new info.

Here's the link...IIRC it is post # 274

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67963&page=11

wm

Snick1946
02-02-2011, 01:09 PM
I have emailed links to our discussion to news staff at the Calgary Herald and Vancouver Sun.
If we have any lurkers on here from Canada we'd love to hear from you and how this story is playing, seems now to be mainly confined to Western Canada.
Also maybe someone with more skill than I have can post a side by side comparison of MB's photo with that of the POI from earlier?

waltzingmatilda
02-02-2011, 01:13 PM
OhhKayyee!! conflicting information here!

http://www.omaha.com/article/20110202/NEWS97/702029911/1014

Above article states he left CU in summer 2007.

http://www.calgarysun.com/news/alberta/2011/02/02/17121046.html

Above link states:

There has been no arrest in the March 2008 case, in which Dr. William Hunter of Omaha found the bodies of Shirlee Sherman and son Thomas Hunter, 11, at his home.

At the time, Belenky was said to be a pathology resident at Creighton University medical school and under Hunter’s supervision.

THEN:

On Tuesday, officer Michael Pecha, a spokesman for the Omaha Police Department confirmed Belenky is part of an ongoing probe into that double-slaying investigation.“Other detectives have spoken to him. That doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a suspect. There’s been a lot of people in different locations that our investigators have talked to in that case, so he’s one of them because he did know Dr. Hunter and was in town at the time,” Pecha said.



wm

noZme
02-02-2011, 01:22 PM
I was so frustrated about no progress & am not really current on this case but in light of new posts, I have a couple of thoughts:

1- Belenky's appearance seems somewhat similar to the person seen in the Hunter's neighborhood the afternoon of the murders.

2- Omaha detectives traveled to Calgary to see Belenky 2 years ago. That seems an adequate time for him to have proven he was elsewhere at the time of the killings, in which case the investigation would refer to him as a person who had been questioned & ruled out.

Snick1946
02-02-2011, 01:27 PM
So far as I know, MB was residing in Pittsburgh at the time of the killings. It would have been easy for a determined perp to hop a plane and and back however, wonder if LE is checking airline records, etc.
I'd be interested to see if this is a story in the Pittsburgh area, will check and advise later if so.

waltzingmatilda
02-02-2011, 01:29 PM
I know it was mentioned on that external website, but it was not specific, in terms of who or how many were tested. Very curious.

I can definitely see the resemblance to the sketch, but I have been seeing a resemblance a lot, I think I'm looking for it. And it definitely might be our guy.

Certain things definitely fit, and I think the med student angle has been very compelling from the beginning. I hope that 2 years after interviewing him they would have some sort of evidence by now.

I want them to find the killers as soon as possible, and even if he's not the guy, I hope this press and bringing him in for more questioning may lead to information that gets the killer.

Omaha or anyone, Can you please provide a link for the external web site when you have the time. It think it will assist sleuths who have not yet viewed it.

Sorry for the inconvenience, I'm sure you all are weary of hearing my lamentations about losing all of my links!

I want them to find the killers as soon as possible too. let's try and keep the faith!

wm

omaha
02-02-2011, 01:44 PM
OhhKayyee!! conflicting information here!

http://www.omaha.com/article/20110202/NEWS97/702029911/1014

Above article states he left CU in summer 2007.

http://www.calgarysun.com/news/alberta/2011/02/02/17121046.html

Above link states:

There has been no arrest in the March 2008 case, in which Dr. William Hunter of Omaha found the bodies of Shirlee Sherman and son Thomas Hunter, 11, at his home.

At the time, Belenky was said to be a pathology resident at Creighton University medical school and under Hunter’s supervision.

THEN:

On Tuesday, officer Michael Pecha, a spokesman for the Omaha Police Department confirmed Belenky is part of an ongoing probe into that double-slaying investigation.“Other detectives have spoken to him. That doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a suspect. There’s been a lot of people in different locations that our investigators have talked to in that case, so he’s one of them because he did know Dr. Hunter and was in town at the time,” Pecha said.



wm

I'm thinking the World Herald probably has better direct info on this.

noZme
02-02-2011, 01:55 PM
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr16/katzkatz_bucket/belskch.jpg

dgfred
02-02-2011, 02:10 PM
Wow, that is as close as it ever gets.

Snick1946
02-02-2011, 02:20 PM
Wow, that is as close as it ever gets.

Check out the nose, eyebrows and lips. It's a bit difficult as one is profile while the newer one is frontal. It'd be nice if anyone can locate a profile view of MB.
One thought- if he is arrested by the RCMP in connection with the fraud on the medical examinations, they will do a DNA test I'd assume. If they got any DNA from the crime scene he may be toast.

omaha
02-02-2011, 02:51 PM
Check out the nose, eyebrows and lips. It's a bit difficult as one is profile while the newer one is frontal. It'd be nice if anyone can locate a profile view of MB.
One thought- if he is arrested by the RCMP in connection with the fraud on the medical examinations, they will do a DNA test I'd assume. If they got any DNA from the crime scene he may be toast.

Agreed. Also, he may beunlikely to be described as olive-skinned… but it's always possible, under the right lighting.

He'd also likely be dressed wearing a jacket as described.

Snick1946
02-02-2011, 03:14 PM
Check out the WOWT news posting on this and see if you notice what's missing:

http://www.wowt.com/news/headlines/115072324.html

Nowhere do they give the name of the POI or say much about all the details of the case as it is being reported on the web in Canada and also in the OWH.

A very strange article - its as if they are just rehashing the old story because they know it's going to be back in the news but they dont want to be first to give details.

noZme
02-02-2011, 03:15 PM
For a long time, I have felt so bad about this case. Today, I dare to be hopeful on a resolution.

Being a visual person & having training in art & photography, I see this man in the artist's rendering. Cut his hair & turn his head... bingo! I have added a hastily done image.

Couldn't the perception of "olive-skinned" have been enhanced by a heavy beard, unshaven face or suntan? His skintone may have been lightened in the original photo. That is a common "correction" in portrait photography.


http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr16/katzkatz_bucket/Picture2-1.jpg

omaha
02-02-2011, 03:58 PM
Check out the WOWT news posting on this and see if you notice what's missing:

http://www.wowt.com/news/headlines/115072324.html

Nowhere do they give the name of the POI or say much about all the details of the case as it is being reported on the web in Canada and also in the OWH.

A very strange article - its as if they are just rehashing the old story because they know it's going to be back in the news but they dont want to be first to give details.

Though I don't have high standards with our local tv reporters, my guess is that since they police have explicitly said he was not a POI, they're not going to name him where it relates to this story. However, they should name him in the investigation relating to his autopsy reports.

fran
02-02-2011, 04:19 PM
OK, reading around about this case is making me cross-eyed. This story has now hit the news pretty good in the states. It's even on MSNBC. Anyway, it's difficult to put everything together, because the articles are a little this and a little that.

One article said the Omaha detectives RECENTLY came to interview Dr MB. Curious that after two years as the asst medical examiner, he suddenly resigns in January. Ehhhhh...............was that JUST AFTER OPD came for a little talk?

One article said they didn't know where he received his residency and another said he received it at Nebraska. But................we KNOW that's not true as he left Nebraska after a month to go to Omaha, which he left BEFORE he got his residency, after 2 years and IIRC 5 months.......:waitasec:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Calgary+pathologist+connected+double+slaying+inves tigation/4206015/story.html
The Nebraska Department of Health and Human Services said Tuesday Belenky began a residency at the University of Nebraska Medical Center in 2005 before moving to Creighton University’s medical school in Omaha a month later.



Oh, but wait! Here's an article that contradicts what's in the last paragraph!....

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=cp_EG206.xml&show_article=1
Belenky, who is still listed as an active member of the Alberta College of Physicians and Surgeons, attended the Gigienceskij Med Institute in Leningrad, Russia. He graduated in 1990 and completed his medical residency at the University of Nebraska Medical Center in anatomic and clinical pathology.

Several of the articles say he received his doctor's degree from Russia. Really? Did he?

Another article said they do NOT KNOW WHERE HE IS?:eek:

Well, just some things to think about.

JMHO
fran

PS.....he may NOT be connected to this case, other than he was a former student of the Doctors, but I think Canada has a problem. I think they just opened the proverbial can of worms! :maddening:

omaha
02-02-2011, 04:22 PM
OK, reading around about this case is making me cross-eyed. This story has now hit the news pretty good in the states. It's even on MSNBC. Anyway, it's difficult to put everything together, because the articles are a little this and a little that.

One article said the Omaha detectives RECENTLY came to interview Dr MB. Curious that after two years as the asst medical examiner, he suddenly resigns in January. Ehhhhh...............was that JUST AFTER OPD came for a little talk?

One article said they didn't know where he received his residency and another said he received it at Omaha. But................we KNOW that's not true as he left BEFORE he got his residency, after 2 years and IIRC 5 months. Not only did he not complete his residency in Omaha, he left after only a month of his residency in Nebraska......:waitasec:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Calgary+pathologist+connected+double+slaying+inves tigation/4206015/story.html
The Nebraska Department of Health and Human Services said Tuesday Belenky began a residency at the University of Nebraska Medical Center in 2005 before moving to Creighton University’s medical school in Omaha a month later.



Oh, but wait! Here's an article that contradicts what's in the last paragraph!....

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=cp_EG206.xml&show_article=1
Belenky, who is still listed as an active member of the Alberta College of Physicians and Surgeons, attended the Gigienceskij Med Institute in Leningrad, Russia. He graduated in 1990 and completed his medical residency at the University of Nebraska Medical Center in anatomic and clinical pathology.

Several of the articles say he received his doctor's degree from Russia. Really? Did he?

Another article said they do NOT KNOW WHERE HE IS?:eek:

Well, just some things to think about.

JMHO
fran

PS.....he may NOT be connected to this case, other than he was a former student of the Doctors, but I think Canada has a problem. I think they just opened the proverbial can of worms! :maddening:

Agreed. Cross-eyed, be I.

waltzingmatilda
02-02-2011, 04:41 PM
I am thinking maybe he transferred out of CU to a school in PA before aquiring his position with the MEO in Pittsburgh. Just speculation though, considering he changed his concentration from clinical pathology to forensic pathology.

MOO

wm

fran
02-02-2011, 04:53 PM
First of all, the articles say he graduated from medical school in Russia in 1990. Ehhhhh...............what did he do in between 1990 and 2005?

He's been in Canada for two years, that would be '08.

He left his residency at Creighton in '07. He received some kind of a fellowship? or something like that. 'in his news discipline? in PA. I don't believe that would give him time do do-over his residency IF he had to begin again.

I don't know if you can carry over your time spent at a residency at another school?

Does anyone know?

LOL, is there a doctor in the house? :)

fran

fran
02-02-2011, 04:58 PM
According to this article, when he was in Pittsburgh, he worked as an assistant medical examiner. So, he could not have been doing his residency.

Besides, the one article from Canada, said their records indicated he got his residency at Nebraska, when we know he was only there for one month before going to Creighton, where he stayed 2 years and 4 months (I was incorrect in previous post, not 5 mos)......and left before he completed his residency.

I don't know if you can get your residency when you're an asst. ME???

fran


http://www.omaha.com/article/20110202/NEWS97/702029911/1014
At the time of the killings, Belenky worked as assistant medical examiner in Pittsburgh

waltzingmatilda
02-02-2011, 05:03 PM
fran, You ask great questions. Yes, we need a Dr in the house to advise us of the protocol. Something seems hinky about this timeline, eh?

wm

BTW, thank you for the links.

Snick1946
02-02-2011, 05:20 PM
'Another article said they do NOT KNOW WHERE HE IS?'

I believe he left the Alberta job abruptly after realizing the circle was closing on him. I wonder if he wasn't contacted by someone in the media and told of the impending stories and asked to comment. So he skipped.

I wonder if the RCMP can track him- also I fear he may have fled back to Russia.

omaha
02-02-2011, 05:21 PM
'Another article said they do NOT KNOW WHERE HE IS?'

I believe he left the Alberta job abruptly after realizing the circle was closing on him. I wonder if he wasn't contacted by someone in the media and told of the impending stories and asked to comment. So he skipped.

I wonder if the RCMP can track him- also I fear he may have fled back to Russia.

I was wondering this too.

I was reading between the lines of Kangar saying in one of the articles that they're going to follow a lead not internationally. Perhaps he's back inside the US and they're going to go follow up with him?

fran
02-02-2011, 05:28 PM
Canada is beginning to question his credentials. :eek:

fran

http://www.globaltvcalgary.com/pathologist+qualifications+scrutinized/4206721/story.html

Pathologist’s qualifications scrutinized

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<article and video at link>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Snick1946
02-02-2011, 06:14 PM
Link to KMTV article:

http://www.kmtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13954738

This article is of interest in that it seems to suggest detectives are currently travelling to investigate related leads.

waltzingmatilda
02-02-2011, 06:31 PM
Snick, I am also concerned that MB may have fled to Russia. It would be easy for him to do if he has a passport. His behavior by leaving his job in the midst of all this is certainly questionable.

fran, thank you so much for your help! I will try to compile a timeline with the links provided. It will be tomorrow before I can work on it because real life takes precedence at this time. Please feel free to jump in during the meantime and don't hesitate to contribute sleuths!

To our guests....WELCOME! Please join WS and contribute to our discussion. We have a great group here:)

wm

waltzingmatilda
02-02-2011, 06:50 PM
Link to KMTV article:

http://www.kmtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13954738

This article is of interest in that it seems to suggest detectives are currently travelling to investigate related leads.

You Know What? (Don't take this the wrong way snick as it is not directed toward you at all.)

I'll bet Shirlee would be mortified at that pic of her with her cleaning kerchief on her head. Of all pics, this one is plastered on the news. I would be ticked off if I were her.

Certainly there are more file photos which capture this pretty lady in a more favorable light. For goodness sake, have some respect.

Rant over...nothing to see here...everybody move on...Moo and all that jazz.

wm

dontknow
02-02-2011, 07:32 PM
fran, You ask great questions. Yes, we need a Dr in the house to advise us of the protocol. Something seems hinky about this timeline, eh?

wm

BTW, thank you for the links.

I am a doctor and have read this thread. I can only address the questions raised about training:

1. First of all, the articles say he graduated from medical school in Russia in 1990. Ehhhhh...............what did he do in between 1990 and 2005?
It would not be uncommon for someone coming from another country to need time before starting a residency - learning the language, getting papers in order etc.Or there may have been training in the country of origin. There can be lots of reasons.

2. I don't know if you can carry over your time spent at a residency at another school? Yes, as long as the first school is accredited, the time spent there can carry over to another program.

3. I don't know if you can get your residency when you're an asst. ME??? Assistant ME's can be residents - in that case, they may be the person who takes the initial information about a crime, but will not make any final determinations.

geojeffrey
02-02-2011, 08:07 PM
I guess there are still questions of whether MB was in Omaha at the time of the murders or not, but even if he was for sure in Pittsburgh, the distance makes driving possible:


1. 15 hours 16 mins
I-80 E
917 mi
2. 15 hours 53 mins
I-80 E and US-30 E
931 mi
3. 16 hours 10 mins
I-80 E, I-74 E and I-70 E
968 mi

I remember reading the old post about the Russian Guy and didn't understand it at the time. I sure hope OPD is working this aggressively. This really seems to be coming together..it seems improbable now that he is NOT involved!

noZme
02-02-2011, 08:32 PM
Welcome to the discussion dontknow! We are happy to have new voices.

Snick1946
02-02-2011, 09:05 PM
Canadian authorities are on the lookout for him: (Update from 40 minutes ago CTV)

Calgary police confirm officers on the street are keeping an eye out for Dr. Michael Belenky, the former assistant medical examiner.

Belenky is the pathologist whose autopsies are now under review by Alberta Justice for possible errors.

Police say officers were briefed about Belenky Wednesday morning and were told to alert investigators from the major crimes unit if they come across him.

"What happened today is a bit of a briefing note to field officers. Basically, the point is that given the high profile of what's happened, the allegations in Omaha, we did a security risk assessment," says Kevin Brookwell with CPS.

Brookwell is referring to a double murder investigation in Omaha, Nebraska.

Belenky once worked there, alongside Dr. William Hunter.

In 2008, Hunter's 11-year-old son, Thomas and the family housekeeper were murdered in the family's home.

Omaha police, who came to Calgary more than a year ago, acknowledge they've known about Michael Belenky throughout the investigation.

He has not been named a suspect, but it's one of the leads cold case investigators have been following.

Belenky has no warrants and is not accused of any crime.

In an interview in an Omaha newspaper, Dr. Hunter says he had a cordial relationship with Belenky, they always got along very well and he's never believed Belenky was involved in any way.


It sounds as if the Calgary PD thinks there is a good chance he is implicated in these murders and is cautioning their officers to use care with him. Full article at:

http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110202/CGY_Belenky_police_110202/20110202/?hub=CalgaryHome

colette
02-02-2011, 11:57 PM
Belenky never became a board-certified pathologist in the U.S. or in Canada.

Despite that in Calgary he landed a $300,000-a-year job as a medical examiner, a position that called for forensic pathologist certification but didn't demand it.



Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2011/02/02/calgary-medical-examiner-belenky-forensic-pathologist-certification.html#ixzz1CrfwkmqJ

Snick1946
02-03-2011, 12:20 AM
Just watched the 10PM news on KMTV, this was one of the lead stories. A reporter standing outside the Hunter home stated that unnamed soures in OPD are telling him 'We're close now..' The report also stated the Calgary cops are indeed trying to locate him actively. Lots of pictures of Tom and Shirlee...

YellowDog
02-03-2011, 01:02 AM
If this is the killer, it would make sense that Tom would have allowed him into the house from probably meeting him through his father at some point in the time he was at CU.
It does sound like they are closing in. I hope he doesn't escape out of the North America.

Jaerose
02-03-2011, 02:44 AM
My heartfelt sympathy to the families and friends of Shirley and Tom....and prayers for justice and some closure as well.
I am a Canadian and Albertan and following this story a bit obsessively. There are news updates here every few hrs and each one is more and more alarming. This story isn't just a story to me, but deeply personal and an everyday part of my life.
If there are any Canadian links that could be useful please let me know?
Here are the late news from one station here.
A few minutes ago the Calgary Major Crimes Unit issued a release that if any officers come across him on patrol they are to use extreme caution in approaching him.


http://www.globaltvcalgary.com/Pathologist+qualifications+scrutinized/4206721/story.html


http://www.globaltvcalgary.com/Pathologist+qualifications+scrutinized/4206721/story.html

proudmama
02-03-2011, 03:59 AM
It's been a year, maybe two since I've visited this thread (how did life get so hectic and time pass so quickly??? lol), but as soon as I heard the news I stopped in to see what info you guys had - Snick and YD I'm so glad you are still on top of it! and everyone else posting great info too!

I have one question - it was a Honda CRV or similiar SUV, with out of state plates. those arent common rental cars so I am curious to know what kind of car MB owned or had access to in 2008. Does anyone have access to motor vehicle dbases to see if there is a connection?

The composite is a dead ringer for him, in my opinion. The strong features always struck me and as soon as I saw his pic, those same strong features jumped out. amazing!

Thanks again for all of the great information - you guys rock!!

proudmama
02-03-2011, 04:24 AM
I am a doctor and have read this thread. I can only address the questions raised about training:

1. First of all, the articles say he graduated from medical school in Russia in 1990. Ehhhhh...............what did he do in between 1990 and 2005?
It would not be uncommon for someone coming from another country to need time before starting a residency - learning the language, getting papers in order etc.Or there may have been training in the country of origin. There can be lots of reasons.

2. I don't know if you can carry over your time spent at a residency at another school? Yes, as long as the first school is accredited, the time spent there can carry over to another program.

3. I don't know if you can get your residency when you're an asst. ME??? Assistant ME's can be residents - in that case, they may be the person who takes the initial information about a crime, but will not make any final determinations.

dontknow - i have a few questions if you would be so kind to answer them.

is it common/normal to switch medical schools midway thru a program?
is it common/normal to switch residency programs midway thru?

If someone did switch schools, what would be typical reasons? would it be hard to get into a 2nd school, if you were already into one program? UNMC and Creighton are both in Omaha, so it's not like a need to relocate would be a valid reason for quitting one school and going to another.

Same two questions for the residency.

Any insight you can provide would be appreciated because I am really puzzled by all of the school and program jumping.

davehead21
02-03-2011, 08:58 AM
I don't think I have ever posted in this thread but have followed it very closely since I don't live too far from Omaha. Wow....I have to say that I was starting to honestly think this crime would never be solved. I am so glad that there is a new lead. I also think that the composite sketch is a dead ringer for this man.

Hopefully the families will soon get some answers.

waltzingmatilda
02-03-2011, 09:07 AM
Welcome to all of new posters! Thank you for joining the discussion!

I saw this article before this latest news about MB came to light. I am posting it in hopes that MB's photo has been distributed to the border patrol guards.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41378701/ns/world_news/

I was just thinking about where this guy might flee. What would be the chances of him attempting to flee via Alaska? I don't know how difficult that would be to do but this guy made 300,00 dollars per year so it may not be too 'out there' for him to try and charter private transportation back to Russia.

Just thinking out loud. MOO

wm

fran
02-03-2011, 10:43 AM
I had followed this case in the beginning, but I hadn't commented because I couldn't add to the discussion. Frankly, I was stumped. I had some ideas, but nothing really, as there were no names to go along with the suspicions and honestly, no facts.

Going back through the first part of the thread #1 of this case, which was begun by out own Snick1946, I was reminded of a few things that could be relevant to some of what has popped up the past day or so.

1.The vehicle the suspicious person was driving that day, had an out of state license plate, but the witness couldn't read what state.

The person who's name is being brought up at this time, Dr. MB, at the time of the murders was living in Pittsburgh. So he MAY have been driving a car with Pa plates.

2. a.The person that's being discussed now, Dr. MB, worked for 2 1/3 years towards his residency and then moved on to another job, and or changed his mind as to his ultimate goal.

b. At the time of the murders, Dr. William Hunter directed the Pathology Residency Program at Creighton and had been MB's instructor or whatever it was called, and Dr. Claire Hunter was the associate program director for evaluation and credentialing in the Department of Medicine, in which I believe she would be the final say on if someone met qualifications to move on with their medical career.

c. It was stated in previous posts, RUMOR, that the Hunters had a Russian friend and MB is Russian.

IF MB was actually, in addition to be a student or up and coming doctor, why would he leave before he got his residency credentials? I mean if they were friends and he was a good doctor, he would have been almost assured a good reference from the Hunters.

3. And last but not least, at the time of the double murder, it was the nail-biting week when the up and coming doctors at Crieghton, were awaiting their responses to hospitals, where they were applying to further their career, after finishing their residency. Their acceptance was dependant on their individual evaluation and recommendation from the staff at Creighton, which included Dr. Claire Hunter's stamp of approval.

I don't recall which article it was from yesterday, so through the last few pages of this thread, I saw a statement by Dr. William Hunter about the person being discussed, Dr. MB, and his words about the qualifications or type of resident MB was sounded so,..................benign, at least to me. It was something like he was 'acceptable' (NOT exact word), and he was a solid resident, or something like that. "Acceptable" (not exact word)?

Then MB moves onto Canada and says he got his 'residency' from Nebraska?

I'm still not quite clear on just exactly when OPD went to Canada to question MB. But it was stated in one article it was recently and others it said some time ago. It was also said in the articles, that OPD went up to Canada on a 'tip.' The 'tip' must have been interesting for the OPD to finance detectives to fly all the way to Canada.

Something is not right. Or at the least, warrant LE to dig deeper.

JMHO
fran

fran
02-03-2011, 11:20 AM
This is interesting:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Omaha double murder

"The Hunters and other Creighton faculty provided detectives with the names of a half dozen former medical residents and students who may have left the university disgruntled, Bill Hunter said. Police tracked residents to locations as far away as Mexico and Canada, he said."

waltzingmatilda
02-03-2011, 11:47 AM
fran, Thanks for linking that post with the OWH article. It answers alot of questions that we have pondered recently.

1) Shirlee usually wrapped up her work by 4:30 pm.

2) Tom's game system was an x-box.

You are a great researcher. Thanks for all your help!

wm

Snick1946
02-03-2011, 11:56 AM
My heartfelt sympathy to the families and friends of Shirley and Tom....and prayers for justice and some closure as well.
I am a Canadian and Albertan and following this story a bit obsessively. There are news updates here every few hrs and each one is more and more alarming. This story isn't just a story to me, but deeply personal and an everyday part of my life.
If there are any Canadian links that could be useful please let me know?
Here are the late news from one station here.
A few minutes ago the Calgary Major Crimes Unit issued a release that if any officers come across him on patrol they are to use extreme caution in approaching him.


http://www.globaltvcalgary.com/Pathologist+qualifications+scrutinized/4206721/story.html


http://www.globaltvcalgary.com/Pathologist+qualifications+scrutinized/4206721/story.html

Thanks and welcome! I have an internet radio and have been listening for updates on your local media. AM 660 in Calgary had coverage Tuesday evening but I have been listening to their newscasts off and on since and now hear nothing about this story. What news outlets in Calgary are covering this story?
The fallout on this will be interesting- how did a man with apparently bogus credentials get a Provencial job with such responsibility? This guy must be a real con artist.
We had an ME here in Nebraska that was falsifying evidence, he is now serving time.

waltzingmatilda
02-03-2011, 12:45 PM
I was re-reading the articles posted thus far and noticed that MB spent time in British Columbia. I wonder if he was there during the missing block of time for 1990 to 2005.

He sure traveled around and transferred alot!

IMO, this is a red flag. Universities enjoy a veil of privacy for they have their own police force and handle disciniplary actions 'in house'. Troubled students are many times reprimanded by the review board for their actions by suspension or expulsion. I think the review board could/do encourage troubled students that their university program is 'just not for them' and they should consider other options. Then the board gives a glowing recommendation for the troubled student in the transfer request. Now someone elses problem.

This is all MOo based on following a few cases, one of which changed laws in NC and allows students discinplinary records to be shared amongst colleges in the UNC university system.

On the other hand, maybe he skipped around so often to avoid the system catching up with him. There sure is some conflicting information. My poor head!!!!!

JMO

wm

Snick1946
02-03-2011, 01:14 PM
You Know What? (Don't take this the wrong way snick as it is not directed toward you at all.)

I'll bet Shirlee would be mortified at that pic of her with her cleaning kerchief on her head. Of all pics, this one is plastered on the news. I would be ticked off if I were her.

Certainly there are more file photos which capture this pretty lady in a more favorable light. For goodness sake, have some respect.

Rant over...nothing to see here...everybody move on...Moo and all that jazz.

wm

I know what you mean, it bothers me too. That is the photo the FBI uses on their web site writeup. I would guess that maybe they want to depict her as she would have looked while at work. It's too bad it has gone viral.
This was a truly beautiful woman who struggled to raise her kids and apparently overcame a lot of issues; she was making a decent living and loved her granddaughter. I believe some of her family still follow our discussion. Our hearts are with you all as we wait and see..

kemo
02-03-2011, 02:21 PM
This is a very interesting development. There is a lot we don't know. I wouldn't expect one "sub par" autopsy to get the DR. fired that fast; obviously there is more to his problems in Canada. There is no obvious connection with the Omaha case but the press in Canada has certainly pick up and ran with it.

From what I have read, MB was one of three people with ties to Creighton Med School that were checked out. That suggests that he may have had a know beef with one or both of the Hunters. Still, it wasn't like his career was ruined by some action of either of them. He went on to practice pathology in Pittsburg and later got a lucrative job in Canada. Motives don't have to be rational.

Of the top of my head, most of the cases of "Doctors who kill" (Swango, Shipman,Charalambous, Bradley Schwartz etc) had serious ethical breeches before they ever killed. This case could be interesting.

YellowDog
02-03-2011, 03:25 PM
I just found a photo of a Pennsylvania license plate with a 12/07 sticker on it that has peach at the top of the license plate. Couldn't figure out how to get the photo on here.

They do not have front license plates in Pennsylvania.

Snick1946
02-03-2011, 03:26 PM
Dont know if this will work, this is a PA license plate that would have been in use at the time:

http://www.15q.net/us4/pa08a.jpg

Not sure if it fits the eyewittness description of a peach colored plate, the perp easily could have put something else on for the time it took to do the deed.

noZme
02-03-2011, 03:29 PM
So are we back to questioning if there was a personal (Love, real or percieved) relationship between the killer (Belenky?) & one of the Hunters?

YellowDog
02-03-2011, 03:38 PM
Here is an interesting read if it hasn't already been posted.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2011/02/01/calgary-forensic-pathologist-belenky-review.html

Snick, that's not the same plate I have a photo of which had a 12/07 sticker on it. If the plates stay with the vehicle like they do in Texas, they could just require a new sticker each year until the plate is 10 years old at which time it is retired.

YellowDog
02-03-2011, 03:40 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2011/02/01/calgary-forensic-pathologist-belenky-review.html

Here is an article about Dr. Belenky's departure.

YellowDog
02-03-2011, 03:42 PM
http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110203/CGY_murder_trial_110203/20110203/?hub=CalgaryHome

More info about a murder trial affected by Dr. Belenky's autopsy report.

YellowDog
02-03-2011, 03:59 PM
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Death+likely+came+quickly+testifies/3841283/story.html

Reading this article gave me "chills". The method of murder is eerily similar to the Omaha murders.

YellowDog
02-03-2011, 04:03 PM
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Autopsy+error+sparks+probe/4200597/story.html

Another link that repeats a lot of what has already been posted on here about Dr. Belenky.

Jaerose
02-03-2011, 04:11 PM
I have not read all the posts to this thread, however the whole license plate issue keeps niggling at me. I don't even know what type of license plate was reported.
In Alberta, there are no front plates required. I'm not sure about other provinces. Here is a link to all Canadian license plates:
http://members.shaw.ca/kcic1/license.html

Re: Snick's question about how would someone with bogus credentials get into such a job???? haha...Another Dr. in Alberta who did reports on the same deceased Dr. Belenky did the autopsy on was found to not have any Canadian credentials and only a sketchy Dr.s degree obtained in India. A friend of the victim launched an inquiry into that Dr. and his incompetence and the top officials found that he was doing a fine job.
Coincidence? That two Dr.s on one murder trial are both found to be unqualified?
Just had to voice this connection. The Canadian government is in big turmoil right now, in particular in Alberta with the leader/Premier who quit last week.

Jaerose
02-03-2011, 04:22 PM
The major news networks in Alberta and Canada are:
www.cbc.ca ; http://calgary.ctv.ca/ ; http://www.globaltvcalgary.com/ ;
Newspapers in Calgary:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/index.html ; http://www.calgarysun.com

I don't think I have seen this story posted here yet. It is the only one I've seen from a news station where comments are allowed. All of the other stories I've looked at are closed to commenting.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2011/01/31/calgary-forensic-pathologist-autopsy-cases-review.html

Frigga
02-03-2011, 04:40 PM
I read here occasionally but never post. I watched this program last night on PBS. Imagine my surprise at the events unfolding right now, in this case. If any of you have the time, it is interesting and disturbing, to say the least.

Here is the Link to the Frontline show entitled "Post Mortem". Some interesting characters come to these positions, not all of course, as you will see- but some... see for yourselves:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/post-mortem/

I hope this crime is solved and the families of Shirley and Thomas can at least have some closure. It was a horrific, sick, and brutal crime and I hope the person(s) responsible are held accountable in this lifetime.

waltzingmatilda
02-03-2011, 07:02 PM
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Death+likely+came+quickly+testifies/3841283/story.html

Reading this article gave me "chills". The method of murder is eerily similar to the Omaha murders.

Oh my YD, That is chilling! I don't know what else to say....

wm

waltzingmatilda
02-03-2011, 07:22 PM
I had followed this case in the beginning, but I hadn't commented because I couldn't add to the discussion. Frankly, I was stumped. I had some ideas, but nothing really, as there were no names to go along with the suspicions and honestly, no facts.

Going back through the first part of the thread #1 of this case, which was begun by out own Snick1946, I was reminded of a few things that could be relevant to some of what has popped up the past day or so.

1.The vehicle the suspicious person was driving that day, had an out of state license plate, but the witness couldn't read what state.

The person who's name is being brought up at this time, Dr. MB, at the time of the murders was living in Pittsburgh. So he MAY have been driving a car with Pa plates.

2. a.The person that's being discussed now, Dr. MB, worked for 2 1/3 years towards his residency and then moved on to another job, and or changed his mind as to his ultimate goal.

b. At the time of the murders, Dr. William Hunter directed the Pathology Residency Program at Creighton and had been MB's instructor or whatever it was called, and Dr. Claire Hunter was the associate program director for evaluation and credentialing in the Department of Medicine, in which I believe she would be the final say on if someone met qualifications to move on with their medical career.

c. It was stated in previous posts, RUMOR, that the Hunters had a Russian friend and MB is Russian.

IF MB was actually, in addition to be a student or up and coming doctor, why would he leave before he got his residency credentials? I mean if they were friends and he was a good doctor, he would have been almost assured a good reference from the Hunters.

3. And last but not least, at the time of the double murder, it was the nail-biting week when the up and coming doctors at Crieghton, were awaiting their responses to hospitals, where they were applying to further their career, after finishing their residency. Their acceptance was dependant on their individual evaluation and recommendation from the staff at Creighton, which included Dr. Claire Hunter's stamp of approval.I don't recall which article it was from yesterday, so through the last few pages of this thread, I saw a statement by Dr. William Hunter about the person being discussed, Dr. MB, and his words about the qualifications or type of resident MB was sounded so,..................benign, at least to me. It was something like he was 'acceptable' (NOT exact word), and he was a solid resident, or something like that. "Acceptable" (not exact word)?

Then MB moves onto Canada and says he got his 'residency' from Nebraska?

I'm still not quite clear on just exactly when OPD went to Canada to question MB. But it was stated in one article it was recently and others it said some time ago. It was also said in the articles, that OPD went up to Canada on a 'tip.' The 'tip' must have been interesting for the OPD to finance detectives to fly all the way to Canada.

Something is not right. Or at the least, warrant LE to dig deeper.

JMHO
fran

~above BBM~

fran, you bring up some good points. I bolded #3 because it dawned on me that perhaps MB would have been one of those residents had he stayed with the program.

For how long is the residency program? Maybe don'tknow will chime in here with info for us.

MOO

wm

Snick1946
02-03-2011, 08:34 PM
I think some of our newer participants may not be aware of this site:

http://solvethomashuntermurder.tumblr.com/

It was apparently done either by the Hunter family or friends of theirs. Whomever it is they have at times taken a somewhat skeptical view of our discussion but I dont hold that against them.
Anyway I was struck by the new entries. Links to news articles about the new developments etc but also a prominent headline repeating Dr Hunter's belief that MB could not be involved in these killings.
I understand professional relunctance to be open to the fact that a collegue could have murdered your son. But the denials we keep hearing on this issue over the past few days in every interview strike me as strange. Just a thought..

Walker007
02-03-2011, 08:48 PM
I think some of our newer participants may not be aware of this site:

http://solvethomashuntermurder.tumblr.com/

It was apparently done either by the Hunter family or friends of theirs. Whomever it is they have at times taken a somewhat skeptical view of our discussion but I dont hold that against them.
Anyway I was struck by the new entries. Links to news articles about the new developments etc but also a prominent headline repeating Dr Hunter's belief that MB could not be involved in these killings.
I understand professional relunctance to be open to the fact that a collegue could have murdered your son. But the denials we keep hearing on this issue over the past few days in every interview strike me as strange. Just a thought..

Bolded by me. I don't want to make up a bunch of scenarios as not to cause pain to anyone. However, one particular thought comes to mind at the reluctance and it is something that is very much alive and well in our country today.


But it is STRANGE, very strange indeed.

ScorpRising
02-03-2011, 10:50 PM
I just found a photo of a Pennsylvania license plate with a 12/07 sticker on it that has peach at the top of the license plate. Couldn't figure out how to get the photo on here.

They do not have front license plates in Pennsylvania.

Our plates are mostly white with (for cars) 3 blue letters and 4 blue numbers. There is a blue stripe and a yellow stripe at the top / bottom... It didn't fit when I first read about peach plates... Our previous plates were blue with yellow writing and prior to that were yellow with blue writing. I can photo part of my plate to post if need be.

ETA: And then I read... the REST of the thread. Sorry :( I hope for there are some answers soon for Tom and Shirlee. Being that this occurred on my birthday, it has always stuck with me.

Snick1946
02-04-2011, 12:11 AM
Bolded by me. I don't want to make up a bunch of scenarios as not to cause pain to anyone. However, one particular thought comes to mind at the reluctance and it is something that is very much alive and well in our country today.


But it is STRANGE, very strange indeed.

OK, I'll bite: what are you referring to that is very much alive today?

I was hoping someone else would ask but if you prefer not to post your reply feel free to PM me, thanks.

YellowDog
02-04-2011, 12:52 AM
13606

I think I finally figured out how to upload the PA license plate I found that had some peach coloring to it. It may be a special plate, but here it is.

Click on it to see a larger picture.

ScorpRising
02-04-2011, 12:58 AM
13606

I think I finally figured out how to upload the PA license plate I found that had some peach coloring to it. It may be a special plate, but here it is.

Click on it to see a larger picture.

Thanks, YD, I forgot about our specialty plates. We have a few. Do you think MB would've paid for a Wildlife plate if he just moved here? Most opt for the standard. Jumping to conclusions here, but he doesn't appear to want to donate to the wildlife...

YellowDog
02-04-2011, 01:01 AM
Welcome to all of new posters! Thank you for joining the discussion!

I saw this article before this latest news about MB came to light. I am posting it in hopes that MB's photo has been distributed to the border patrol guards.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41378701/ns/world_news/

I was just thinking about where this guy might flee. What would be the chances of him attempting to flee via Alaska? I don't know how difficult that would be to do but this guy made 300,00 dollars per year so it may not be too 'out there' for him to try and charter private transportation back to Russia.

Just thinking out loud. MOO

wm

Might not be too difficult. Didn't Palin say she could see Russia from her front porch? Sorry, couldn't resist that one.

YellowDog
02-04-2011, 01:03 AM
Thanks, YD, I forgot about our specialty plates. We have a few. Do you think MB would've paid for a Wildlife plate if he just moved here? Most opt for the standard. Jumping to conclusions here, but he doesn't appear to want to donate to the wildlife...


I found another PA plate that is still in use (according to the page I read) that is peach. I'll try to find it again.

ScorpRising
02-04-2011, 01:12 AM
I found another PA plate that is still in use (according to the page I read) that is peach. I'll try to find it again.

Railroad?

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/license_plates/plate-train-large.shtml

Flagship Niagara... I can't find an image of just that one...

YellowDog
02-04-2011, 01:16 AM
http://worldlicenseplates.com

Check out the bottom plate on the right at this link. It says it is still current and it is peach across the bottom. You will have to find PA on their menu and then check it out.

I erased the first link I had on here because it wasn't working for me.

ScorpRising
02-04-2011, 01:25 AM
http://worldlicenseplates.com/usa/US_PAXX.html

Check out the bottom plate on the right at this link. It says it is still current and it is peach across the bottom.

Telling me it's an out of date link...

How bout this one?

http://www.battleoflakeerieart.com/plate.php

YellowDog
02-04-2011, 01:27 AM
Telling me it's an out of date link...

How bout this one?

http://www.battleoflakeerieart.com/plate.php

Go back to my post. I just changed the link for you because the first one was not working.

YellowDog
02-04-2011, 01:28 AM
No, that's not the one I'm talking about.

ScorpRising
02-04-2011, 01:38 AM
http://worldlicenseplates.com

Check out the bottom plate on the right at this link. It says it is still current and it is peach across the bottom. You will have to find PA on their menu and then check it out.

I erased the first link I had on here because it wasn't working for me.

I think we'll need to have others weigh in on this one... It's yellow to me.

YellowDog
02-04-2011, 02:24 AM
I think we'll need to have others weigh in on this one... It's yellow to me.

It looks peach and blue and white to me. The one on the bottom at the left looks more yellow.

fran
02-04-2011, 06:52 AM
This is very confusing. By all news accounts, OPD went to Calgary PREVIOUSLY to talk to MB, yet in this article they make it 'present tense,' like yesterday. As the second paragraph mentions '3 years ago,' IMO, it definitely looks as if OPD went to Canada AGAIN.

Whatever it is, it seems OPD MAY be taking a second look at MB.

JMHO
fran




http://www.ketv.com/news/26722599/detail.html

Lt. Ken Kanger, lead detective in the 2008 Dundee murders of an 11-year-old boy and the family housekeeper, said Wednesday his team went to Canada to interview a doctor who may be able to provide new information on the case.

Calgary police said they have opened their city to the Omaha detectives who have come to seek new information on a double murder that happened almost three years ago.

fran
02-04-2011, 07:03 AM
Isn't it weird that he left his post at the medical examiners office in Canada, and he was still contracted 'honorary' to teach for the local university? I mean, you would THINK he'd wait his departure until that contract had expired.

Notice how they say he got his medical license in Russia and it's still in good standing. Yet, the confirmation of his license is made by an outside party.

So say he'd been in Canada for two years, and all this time the confirming company had been attempting to go through red tape to verify his graduation from the Russian school,..................and then they finally got word he hadn't attended and, or graduated and that was why he left his last job? hypothetically, of course!;)

I do notice that the last employer won't give a 'reason' for MB's departure, which tells me, it was NOT the doctor's decison to depart. Otherwise they most likely would have given the usual, 'he had another opportunity or it was for 'personal' reasons.' Nope, deny explanation.

JMHO
fran
PS....I do have to be fair and mention that I do NOT feel MB fits the description of the mysterious stranger who went to the Hunter's door that afternoon. MB is fair complexion while the stranger was described as 'olive skin.' It is noted that OPD also went to Mexico to interview from 'tips,' ie possible former disgruntled students.




http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2011/02/01/calgary-forensic-pathologist-belenky-review.html

Belenky left the medical examiner's office last month. But Dear refused to say what led to his departure, calling it a private human resources issue.

University contract ended Tuesday

Belenky also had a contract to teach clinics for students at the University of Calgary, but it ended Tuesday, the university has said.

Belenky began teaching pathology to students in October 2008. The university said students watched him work at the medical examiner's office and that he didn't lecture on campus.

A university spokesperson said it was an honorary arrangement and he wasn't paid for the work.

The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta's website indicates Belenky graduated as a doctor of medicine in Russia in 1990. His licence is still in good standing.

Kelly Eby, spokeswoman for the college, said an outside agency does the checks on doctors who are trying to qualify for a licence in Alberta.



Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2011/02/01/calgary-forensic-pathologist-belenky-review.html#ixzz1CzCU5nic

dontknow
02-04-2011, 02:22 PM
dontknow - i have a few questions if you would be so kind to answer them.

is it common/normal to switch medical schools midway thru a program?
is it common/normal to switch residency programs midway thru?

If someone did switch schools, what would be typical reasons? would it be hard to get into a 2nd school, if you were already into one program? UNMC and Creighton are both in Omaha, so it's not like a need to relocate would be a valid reason for quitting one school and going to another.

Same two questions for the residency.

Any insight you can provide would be appreciated because I am really puzzled by all of the school and program jumping.

It is possible but not common to switch medical schools - it usually has to do with relocating (family etc). It is not too hard- most medical schools have students that drop out, so spaces become available. In this case: he appears to have completed medical school in Russia, and was already a resident, so changing medical school would not apply. Reasons for changing residency (ex between U of NE and Creighton) are different - see below.

It is possible (and more common than for medical school) to switch residencies. The most common reason is deciding you do not like the specialty you are in - it happens quite a bit, since medical school only gives you so much exposure to specialties - you may find that what you thought you would love is not it. Other reasons are having been cut from the program, personal-family issues.

dontknow
02-04-2011, 02:29 PM
I had followed this case in the beginning, but I hadn't commented because I couldn't add to the discussion. Frankly, I was stumped. I had some ideas, but nothing really, as there were no names to go along with the suspicions and honestly, no facts.

Going back through the first part of the thread #1 of this case, which was begun by out own Snick1946, I was reminded of a few things that could be relevant to some of what has popped up the past day or so.

1.The vehicle the suspicious person was driving that day, had an out of state license plate, but the witness couldn't read what state.

The person who's name is being brought up at this time, Dr. MB, at the time of the murders was living in Pittsburgh. So he MAY have been driving a car with Pa plates.

2. a.The person that's being discussed now, Dr. MB, worked for 2 1/3 years towards his residency and then moved on to another job, and or changed his mind as to his ultimate goal.

b. At the time of the murders, Dr. William Hunter directed the Pathology Residency Program at Creighton and had been MB's instructor or whatever it was called, and Dr. Claire Hunter was the associate program director for evaluation and credentialing in the Department of Medicine, in which I believe she would be the final say on if someone met qualifications to move on with their medical career.

c. It was stated in previous posts, RUMOR, that the Hunters had a Russian friend and MB is Russian.

IF MB was actually, in addition to be a student or up and coming doctor, why would he leave before he got his residency credentials? I mean if they were friends and he was a good doctor, he would have been almost assured a good reference from the Hunters.

3. And last but not least, at the time of the double murder, it was the nail-biting week when the up and coming doctors at Crieghton, were awaiting their responses to hospitals, where they were applying to further their career, after finishing their residency. Their acceptance was dependant on their individual evaluation and recommendation from the staff at Creighton, which included Dr. Claire Hunter's stamp of approval.

I don't recall which article it was from yesterday, so through the last few pages of this thread, I saw a statement by Dr. William Hunter about the person being discussed, Dr. MB, and his words about the qualifications or type of resident MB was sounded so,..................benign, at least to me. It was something like he was 'acceptable' (NOT exact word), and he was a solid resident, or something like that. "Acceptable" (not exact word)?

Then MB moves onto Canada and says he got his 'residency' from Nebraska?

I'm still not quite clear on just exactly when OPD went to Canada to question MB. But it was stated in one article it was recently and others it said some time ago. It was also said in the articles, that OPD went up to Canada on a 'tip.' The 'tip' must have been interesting for the OPD to finance detectives to fly all the way to Canada.

Something is not right. Or at the least, warrant LE to dig deeper.

JMHO
fran

Medicine and Pathology are different departments, and each makes their own decisions concerning residents and students. Neither Dr.would have any decision making power over students or residents taught by the other spouse. Also, Match Day (residency decisions) in March apply only to medical students. The individual in question was a resident - well beyond that step.

Snick1946
02-04-2011, 04:52 PM
Just when you thought things weren't confusing enough on Dr Belenky, check this link out..

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Pathologist+reports+spur+Justice+investigation/4222097/story.html

What I refer to is the offhand comment that reporters reached him AT HIS HOME Thursday, so, he is apparently not in flight. This sort of conflicts with the news article posted yesterday that left the impression LE was looking for him.

I agree with Fran in her statementn that he does not seem to match the POI description in all accounts. I also wonder if two persons were involved that day..

shan32
02-04-2011, 06:50 PM
http://medschool.creighton.edu/gme/programs/pathologyresidencyhome/wheredidtheygo/index.php

This is a link from Creighton's Pathology resident program's list of past residents. Although there are pictures and info on other residents who transferred to other programs, there is no meantion of Michael Belenky. Maybe it means nothing, but maybe it hints at him leaving under negative circumstances...

norest4thewicked
02-04-2011, 11:23 PM
This is a fascinating case and I remember when this happened. I used to live in Omaha and my daughter and son-in-law live there now. As I read through the posts, my theories kept changing. I'm so happy that they are looking for MB about this and it sure would be good to solve the crime. But, the poor dad...if MB killed the boy because of him...how terrible it would be...

brudsaunt
02-05-2011, 10:13 AM
Long interested in this case and just joined WS after article in World Herald
about MB. Looked him up on intelius. Wondered if he had a family, kids.
There's a {mod edit}"M" associated with him. Other addresses in California
prior to Nebraska and Pennsylvania.

If murders done by hit man, Dr. Hunter is SMART to say MB isn't suspected.
He could still be in touch with hit man....

Snick1946
02-05-2011, 12:32 PM
Long interested in this case and just joined WS after article in World Herald
about MB. Looked him up on intelius. Wondered if he had a family, kids.
There's a "M" {mod snip}associated with him. Other addresses in California
prior to Nebraska and Pennsylvania.

If murders done by hit man, Dr. Hunter is SMART to say MB isn't suspected.
He could still be in touch with hit man....


Welcome to the thread and hope to have you here often, same to all new posters!
I personally think Dr Hunter's relunctance to admit the possibility of MB's being involved stems fom some personality factor rather than any attempt at concealment. I do not know him, however I have crossed paths with him briefly in the past couple years and know a friend of his. It is difficult to imagine him involved on that level.
On another topic, someone posted this morning on the Forensic Astrology thread that there was a new article stating MB had been placed in Omaha at the time of the killings. Anyone know about that article? I can't find anything.

Snick1946
02-05-2011, 01:01 PM
Heres a link to a discussion board on this case I havent seen before:

http://www.johndouglasmindhunter.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10484&sid=28c797b4c5cd7f91fb9f70c812a429d7

Nothing much new here but thought some of you would be interested.

YellowDog
02-05-2011, 01:12 PM
Here's a link on some news posted today.

http://www2.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/city/story.html?id=3935ba9d-ce2c-422b-95d6-6365f9387385

waltzingmatilda
02-05-2011, 01:46 PM
Welcome to the thread and hope to have you here often, same to all new posters!
I personally think Dr Hunter's relunctance to admit the possibility of MB's being involved stems fom some personality factor rather than any attempt at concealment. I do not know him, however I have crossed paths with him briefly in the past couple years and know a friend of his. It is difficult to imagine him involved on that level.
On another topic, someone posted this morning on the Forensic Astrology thread that there was a new article stating MB had been placed in Omaha at the time of the killings. Anyone know about that article? I can't find anything.

Snick, I recall reading one article which stated that OPD was interviewing persons who were in Omaha on the day of the murders. It was vague and one had to read between the lines as it never specifically stated MB was there.

I'll try and find a link.

wm

waltzingmatilda
02-05-2011, 01:53 PM
Here's the link!

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Calgary+pathologist+connected+double+slaying+inves tigation/4206015/story.html


In a subsequent e-mail, Tierney didn’t refer to Belenky — but said police have been actively seeking people who may have been in or around Omaha around the time of the killings.

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Calgary+pathologist+connected+double+slaying+inves tigation/4206015/story.html#ixzz1D6lZFjVX

Snick1946
02-05-2011, 04:21 PM
Hopefully we may be approaching an end to the search for the killer.
I've mentioned before about my love of the Sherlock Holmes stories. I wanted to pass on a quote from one of them, Holmes to Watson:

"When a doctor does go wrong," Sherlock Holmes explained to Watson, "he is the first of criminals. He has nerve and he has knowledge."

YellowDog
02-05-2011, 04:40 PM
This is quoted from the article in the Calgary Newspaper today:

"Belenky received his medical degree from a university in St. Petersburg, Russia. The Herald has viewed notarized copies of the Russian diploma, verifying he graduated from the Leningrad Institute of Sanitation and Hygiene in 1990.

Belenky and his family came to Canada a short time later, but a number of years lapsed before he resumed his medical education and became licensed to practice in Canada.

Between 2005 and 2007, Belenky enrolled at Creighton University in Omaha, Nebraska, where he finished a residency in anatomical and clinical pathology."

It says Belenky came to Canada shortly after graduating from medical school in Russia. What was he doing from then until he enrolled at Creighton University?

brudsaunt
02-05-2011, 05:08 PM
Hunter's probably think about this every day--us less often. Both they and the PD
probably know more than we do. If DNA evidence existed, samples would have been collected from MB in 2008 and he'd be in jail. It all fits--a pathologist who uses a scalpel
every day would know how not to cut himself when using a knife. Did he get so wrapped up in his anger that he wasn't totally rational? Why didn't he wear a disguise? You have to admit, the picture of the drawing of the olve skinned man looks a lot like MB. I don't mean to rush to judgement...I just want closure for both families and a feeling of safety for the residents of Dundee. Is he trying to help murders get away with it in Canada? Or is he just incompetent? To be able to get away with this crime,
the murderer had to think about his moves. Forensic pathologists spend their careers
thinking like criminals. It just seems to fit. "When a doctor goes bad"...Whoever did
this has a sick mind and a black heart and it's difficult to conceive of this person
functioning well in society.

On another vein, do you think Websleuths has ever looked into how many criminals log
on to their site? It seems it would be easy to check if, after the criminal is caught, to
check his or her computer's IP against the site.

YellowDog
02-05-2011, 09:11 PM
Could Dr. Belenky been "on the take" on autopsies related to murder trials?

Snick1946
02-06-2011, 03:17 PM
Hunter's probably think about this every day--us less often. Both they and the PD
probably know more than we do. If DNA evidence existed, samples would have been collected from MB in 2008 and he'd be in jail. It all fits--a pathologist who uses a scalpel
every day would know how not to cut himself when using a knife. Did he get so wrapped up in his anger that he wasn't totally rational? Why didn't he wear a disguise? You have to admit, the picture of the drawing of the olve skinned man looks a lot like MB. I don't mean to rush to judgement...I just want closure for both families and a feeling of safety for the residents of Dundee. Is he trying to help murders get away with it in Canada? Or is he just incompetent? To be able to get away with this crime,
the murderer had to think about his moves. Forensic pathologists spend their careers
thinking like criminals. It just seems to fit. "When a doctor goes bad"...Whoever did
this has a sick mind and a black heart and it's difficult to conceive of this person
functioning well in society.

On another vein, do you think Websleuths has ever looked into how many criminals log
on to their site? It seems it would be easy to check if, after the criminal is caught, to
check his or her computer's IP against the site.

I don't want to freak anyone out but I'd guess there is a good chance that the killer has been reading our posts all along. He's not stupid, whether or not he is MB, he is someone with a very savvy grip on things; he'd have to be to have pulled this off and gotten away with it so long. I'd bet he is someone with an interest in technical things and very familiar with the internet. It woudn't at all surprise me to learn that he has even posted in this discussion.
One thought- if this were MB could he have disguised himself, say by using skin bronzer prior to the crime? Anyone smart enojugh to have pulled this off would take that sort of precaution.

fran
02-06-2011, 03:21 PM
I don't want to freak anyone out but I'd guess there is a good chance that the killer has been reading our posts all along. He's not stupid, whether or not he is MB, he is someone with a very savvy grip on things; he'd have to be to have pulled this off and gotten away with it so long. I'd bet he is someone with an interest in technical things and very familiar with the internet. It woudn't at all surprise me to learn that he has even posted in this discussion.
One thought- if this were MB could he have disguised himself, say by using skin bronzer prior to the crime? Anyone smart enojugh to have pulled this off would take that sort of precaution.


BBM: That's exactly what I'd thought the other day when I posted that MB doesn't fit the description of the mysterious man. Hair dye and liquid tanner.

Obviously he, whoever it is, didn't plan on getting caught.

JMHO
fran

brudsaunt
02-06-2011, 04:11 PM
I've tried to get onto Calgary DMV sites, but it's not helpful. Any ideas how to find out
what kind of car MB drives? Wonder why thre's been nothing about extradition to the
US. They mustn't have anything solid...

Regardless of whether or not criminals follow these threads, I think the brainstorming is
good and in some small way, satisfies a desire to help. You have all pulled a lot of information from scant news and have helped me understand a little more about this
nightmare.

thesaint
02-06-2011, 05:25 PM
BBM: That's exactly what I'd thought the other day when I posted that MB doesn't fit the description of the mysterious man. Hair dye and liquid tanner.



one potential snafu with liquid tanner and hair dye is that his altered appearance might set off alarm bells for whomever answered the door at the Hunter household---if the Russian Doc was counting on his prior familiarity with the Hunter family to gain him entrance into the house that day.

also, one detail that maybe argues against the potentially-familiar-to-the-Hunter-family-and-with-their-household russian dr being the person neighbors spotted that day is that the individual in question seemed to be unfamiliar with where the Hunters actually lived--I believe he was spotted starting and stopping and seemed to be checking addresses.

Not to say it wasn't/couldn't have been the doctor, he may well have not been familiar with the Hunter's home. Tho having lived in Omaha and worked with the doctor for years, it seems more likely he at least had some familiarity with the Hunter household--especially if he's the russian family friend with a "weird" relationship to the Hunters.

Perhaps the Russian doc hired someone to do the actual murders.

w/r/t Dr Hunter's statements about the Russian doctor in the media and how he was a "solid resident"--I'd guess those statements are benign and repetitive for legal reasons having more to do with Dr Hunter's role at Creighton than anything else.

And if there is indeed a weird history between the russian doc and the Hunter family, all the more reason to say as little as necessary in the papers.

If as it seems to be reported that the russian Doctor was a suspect from the get-go (he apparently was in Omaha at the time of the murders) , I wonder if the police at least included his photo(s) in photo lineups (perhaps even actual lineups?) for the neighbors who saw the primary POI.

waltzingmatilda
02-06-2011, 06:06 PM
one potential snafu with liquid tanner and hair dye is that his altered appearance might set off alarm bells for whomever answered the door at the Hunter household---if the Russian Doc was counting on his prior familiarity with the Hunter family to gain him entrance into the house that day.

also, one detail that maybe argues against the potentially-familiar-to-the-Hunter-family-and-with-their-household russian dr being the person neighbors spotted that day is that the individual in question seemed to be unfamiliar with where the Hunters actually lived--I believe he was spotted starting and stopping and seemed to be checking addresses.

Not to say it wasn't/couldn't have been the doctor, he may well have not been familiar with the Hunter's home. Tho having lived in Omaha and worked with the doctor for years, it seems more likely he at least had some familiarity with the Hunter household--especially if he's the russian family friend with a "weird" relationship to the Hunters.

Perhaps the Russian doc hired someone to do the actual murders. w/r/t Dr Hunter's statements about the Russian doctor in the media and how he was a "solid resident"--I'd guess those statements are benign and repetitive for legal reasons having more to do with Dr Hunter's role at Creighton than anything else.

And if there is indeed a weird history between the russian doc and the Hunter family, all the more reason to say as little as necessary in the papers.

If as it seems to be reported that the russian Doctor was a suspect from the get-go (he apparently was in Omaha at the time of the murders) , I wonder if the police at least included his photo(s) in photo lineups (perhaps even actual lineups?) for the neighbors who saw the primary POI.

~ above respectfully BBM ~

This is what I am thinking at this point in time. IMO there is more than one person involved in this crime.

There is something that bothers me and I am just being honest here.

Dr. BH has stated in MSM news with certainty that MB could not have committed this crime. How well would a dept. director know a resident, who left the program in 2007, in order to base this opinion?

Dr. BH stated that his relationship with MB while at CU was 'cordial'. The word 'cordial' (to me) indicates detachment, distancing. It infers that the relationship was strictly professional, not personal.

Yet, his statements in news media in defense of MB sounds like he felt he knew him very well in a personal manner.

I am sorry and I mean no disrespect but I must ask these questions. Why does Dr. BH feel such courage of conviction that MB, a resident of CU who transferred out of his pathology program in 2007, would not do such a thing? Something about this just doesn't jive, IMO.

This is all Moo.

wm

brudsaunt
02-06-2011, 06:41 PM
What BH says to the media and what he actually thinks are probably two very different things. Hopefullly he has the benefit of good legal advice. Remember, the killer is
still out there and he has to protect his family. Which reminds me...When this case
is more active, even when it's not, I hope the police are watching the house.

Tommy could have met the killer outside of the home. Doctors and their families socialize. The killer could have been at the Hunter's once and just not been certain which house was theirs.

YellowDog
02-06-2011, 11:40 PM
http://www.kmtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13960271

This article states that MB has not been seen since he quit his job last month. I hope LE knows where he is.

YellowDog
02-06-2011, 11:54 PM
http://www.unmc.edu/media/pathology/newsletters/mjj03.pdf

MB was a new resident in 2003 at the University of Nebraska. There is another photo of him on this link.

brudsaunt
02-07-2011, 09:15 AM
Hasn't been seen since by whom? His co-workers in the pathology department? The
Calgary police? The information in Dave Robert's report depends on the depth of his investigation. He tends to favor the sensational sometimes and may have gotten his
information from other reports.

Whether or not MB is on the lam is uncertain. If he has a family, it
is more difficult to flee.

Wonder if he fits the estimated height and weight...

Jaerose
02-07-2011, 10:13 AM
one potential snafu with liquid tanner and hair dye is that his altered appearance might set off alarm bells for whomever answered the door at the Hunter household---if the Russian Doc was counting on his prior familiarity with the Hunter family to gain him entrance into the house that day.

also, one detail that maybe argues against the potentially-familiar-to-the-Hunter-family-and-with-their-household russian dr being the person neighbors spotted that day is that the individual in question seemed to be unfamiliar with where the Hunters actually lived--I believe he was spotted starting and stopping and seemed to be checking addresses. Not to say it wasn't/couldn't have been the doctor, he may well have not been familiar with the Hunter's home. Tho having lived in Omaha and worked with the doctor for years, it seems more likely he at least had some familiarity with the Hunter household--especially if he's the russian family friend with a "weird" relationship to the Hunters.

Perhaps the Russian doc hired someone to do the actual murders.

w/r/t Dr Hunter's statements about the Russian doctor in the media and how he was a "solid resident"--I'd guess those statements are benign and repetitive for legal reasons having more to do with Dr Hunter's role at Creighton than anything else.

And if there is indeed a weird history between the russian doc and the Hunter family, all the more reason to say as little as necessary in the papers.

If as it seems to be reported that the russian Doctor was a suspect from the get-go (he apparently was in Omaha at the time of the murders) , I wonder if the police at least included his photo(s) in photo lineups (perhaps even actual lineups?) for the neighbors who saw the primary POI.

If this killing was planned, is it possible that part of the killers disguise could be pretending to be unfamiliar with the neighborhood? Appearing to not quite be sure which house he was looking for in case someone spotted him?

fran
02-07-2011, 10:19 AM
http://www.unmc.edu/media/pathology/newsletters/mjj03.pdf

MB was a new resident in 2003 at the University of Nebraska. There is another photo of him on this link.

Interesting, his hair appears to be black in that photo.

JMHO
fran

YellowDog
02-07-2011, 11:40 AM
What could be the ONE WORD in an autopsy report that would make the Medical Examiner's Office question MB and cause them to review 12 of the autopsies he performed, 11 of which were related to criminal cases?

brudsaunt
02-07-2011, 01:26 PM
It's not one word, I don't think. It's a series of words, I would think. It's an obvious mistake, or lack of thoroughness, or a mismatch between the description of the findings and the final impression.

It's probably standard that if they found one mistake that they review the
last few autopsies, especially in high stakes cases.

Salem
02-07-2011, 01:41 PM
I'm gonna start a new thread here. This one is getting pretty long.

Salem

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