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TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 09:01 PM
Since I couldn't take any photos actually today or get anywhere near that direction, I went back to the south side of the lake.

Cops are consistently in a few places - in some places just keeping people out of trails, in some places just watching particular areas, and in some places closing off roads. I'll show some of that on my map when I get this done.

The south side is:
- the side where Chelsea's clothes were found
- where she went running
- where the first attack happened
- where his family lived and he seems likely to have accessed the back running trails
- where her car was
- and where the waterfalls and the Bernardo Bay portion that has been very heavily searched the last few days (where I have many pictures in my earlier post)

In other words, while the arrest was on the north side and it seems they are searching for evidence and in case her body was placed there, ALL of the other key areas, and where the original crime seems to have occurred are on the south side.

It's between two key areas, which I will mark on the map and include in my next post, that the helicopter seems to do the most hovering between, which further seems to add to the idea that there are areas of split focus at the moment.

Heading past the park (still closed to the public at the signal heading toward the back area by trails and where her car was parked, etc., but the front park where the ballfields are and where the street access parking lots are seem to be open to the public) I drove down West Bernardo to try to photograph a few places.

This is looking north at what's called the Green Valley Bridge - that's 1-15 right there overhead - from this area right around the bridge to the east side here...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4039/4399178379_910a245be5_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4399178379/)

to the west side here (this is the back of the streets of Aguamiel and Alborada, etc.) is where the helicopter and steady search light were much of Friday evening and Friday night.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4036/4399178043_e936119805_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4399178043/in/photostream/)

I'm guessing that was an area they initially thought she may have run the trails by the road there and then gone back into the park/lake area, but have now ruled out (but since I'd talked about them before I wanted to take photos!)

A few of these are out my car window - and while I was trying to go slowly enough along the side of the road to take them but not stop (LOL) - so sorry they're not super clear.

This is the helicopter as it's leaving from over the area near the Bernardo Bay area and about to fly back to near the north side again. I'll also indicate this chopper/gate on my map in the next post.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4069/4399177725_1ec83bb79c_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4399177725/in/photostream/)

Not a great photo, but this was then as I was driving up Aguacate toward Alborada that the helicopter was high to loop back around and then go to the north side.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2757/4399945202_2e9a1ff256_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4399945202/in/photostream/)

This is the gate many people were asking about. It's the gate at the end of Monticook that gives (obviously) fire/utility access to the backroads/trails here AND to the utility station.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4399944772/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4399944772/in/photostream/)

There were a bunch of people and a cop looking down from the top of Smokesignal and Alborada - that's where my photos from yesterday of the search activity were taken from.

The trail access at Poblado - between Moonsong and Smokesignal - the area with the yellow $ on my map AND the area where the earlier attack occurred AND the area with very heavy LEO/SAR staging area presence yesterday was still has a round the clock LEO presence to keep people from entering - it's also the neighbhood access to the waterfall/bay area, and where JAG likely accessed it from.

This is essentially what the Poblado access looks like, minus the lack of cops (obviously this is from a media source since I couldn't take it with the activity there today):

http://xetv.img.entriq.net/img/dp_thumbs/thumb_1262071489841_0p2914894199766447.jpg (http://xetv.img.entriq.net/img/dp_thumbs/thumb_1262071489841_0p2914894199766447.jpg)

This is one of the other access points that someone was inquiring about as far as how people could get to that utility station in the valley near the waterfall and the bays. Beside the Monticook point, here's another of the locked arm gate things off of Caranazza, it (the access road) then runs along behind the edge of the Legends neighborhood, basically parallel to High Mesa Court. From there, the access road goes a) to the end of the peninsula area seen in my photos here AND b) down toward the waterfalls/Bernardo Bay/utility station area.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2760/4399176641_976fb9f4c1_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4399176641/in/photostream/)

I drove down Matinal to try and photo the canyon access there, where JAG likely could have used the trail - orange on my map - to get to the Poblado access point, but there was too much activity there.

I continued up Matinal and it was very obvious, just a bit up from the school (or a bit in to the neighborhood from the Matinal stoplight at West Bernardo), where JAG had been staying with family.

There are flare remanents at both sides of the home where it was blocked off last night.

One more post to come with my map and the pictures linked to it (AFTER the news now at the top of the hour) and I'll answer questions!

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 09:03 PM
TravelerBug,

A new poster to WS indicated he is a psychic and indicated an area of eucalyptus trees of medium height and a clearing where he felt a strong feeling that someone had buried something. Read post back for details. Do you know of any area like what he describes, and is the area if it exists in the park or around the lake in the general area of the searching being conducted today?

Just saw this real fast - I posted the other day that the predominant type of tree in the area is, in part, Eucalyptus.

Honestly, anyone who has read what I've written or looked at photos would probably see that pretty much - clearing included - characterizes the area ALL around the park, the lake, this part of town, etc.

So yes, I had seen that post earlier today, but honestly, that post gives zero specificity whatsoever as all that's said is true of basically all of this area. :angel:

lurkeyloo
03-01-2010, 09:06 PM
IS their a water refinery or reservoir close?

Starry Night
03-01-2010, 09:07 PM
for all the work that the RSO registry and treatment needs (to include harsher sentences and more weight put to psychological exams) I think we can all, at least, be thankful that the registry was in place when this happened... or we would have clothing by a creek with DNA.. but no one to match it to.

*2 cents alert*
1) they system turned loose a known predator to do it again
2) the system banked his prints and dna when he was arrested initially and it tied back to Chelsea's case and an arrest has been made before we have even found Chelsea.

bottom line: triumphs (dna banking of RSOs) and tribulations (setting predators like him free) abound.

Very positive post-progress is slow but steady Nurse! That is how crime-solving evolves. And we do have to remember that the Officers and Investigators on the street are limited to what the law allows. Very complex indeed.

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 09:08 PM
Channel 8 (KFMB) news at 5:

A shoe, sweatshirt and sunglasses were among the evidence discovered.

There were still nearly 1000 volunteers out today, even with work and school back - the number is NOT much less than it was when people were off over the weekend.

KFMB has their chopper showing one of the two dive boats out in the lake area.

They showed the area where TWO dive team boats have been spending the day. That location is right in the little area I kept calling the "finger" area.

There's another marshy area the helicopter has been over, but I'm still trying to locate that to post it in my next map update coming shortly.

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 09:16 PM
KGTV (10) at 5:

Also showing the dive team so it's letting me see better - FBI is in the marshy area here.

Basically the finger of the lake is where the focus is and the marshy area right next to it.

The area at the edge of this photo here from yesterday is basically the area in focus.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4057/4395717729_d7d7a2d7d8_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4395717729/)

It's the area where my photo of the Sheriff Astria helicopter earlier is hovering over, it's the area near the falls where there was a lot of searching, it's where the FBI is out over the marshy area, it's the area where TWO dive teams of 20+ divers (each, is what I think she said) were out - one's on shore at the moment - clearly this is where they believe something key happened.

This is the area that from the neighborhood JAG could have accessed from Poblado. (the Yellow $ on the map)

jnTexas
03-01-2010, 09:18 PM
Channel 8 (KFMB) news at 5:

A shoe, sweatshirt and sunglasses were among the evidence discovered.
There were still nearly 1000 volunteers out today, even with work and school back - the number is NOT much less than it was when people were off over the weekend.

KFMB has their chopper showing one of the two dive boats out in the lake area.

They showed the area where TWO dive team boats have been spending the day. That location is right in the little area I kept calling the "finger" area.

There's another marshy area the helicopter has been over, but I'm still trying to locate that to post it in my next map update coming shortly.

BBM that stuff was heard on the scanner earlier and posted in the scanner thread.

ETA: scanner thread scoped the news. hehe

Billylee
03-01-2010, 09:19 PM
Women's medium gray hooded sweatshirt found in a ravine!!!! Officer wants to know if there is interest in this find, or should it be ignored?

I'm listening live on the Scanner: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96799)

Amber Dubois was wearing a black hoodie when she disappeared. Do you suppose it could be hers? Is this place his "dumping ground"? Yikes!

TheMentalist
03-01-2010, 09:19 PM
[QUOTE=TravelingBug;4870171]Just saw this real fast - I posted the other day that the predominant type of tree in the area is, in part, Eucalyptus.

Honestly, anyone who has read what I've written or looked at photos would probably see that pretty much - clearing included - characterizes the area ALL around the park, the lake, this part of town, etc.

So yes, I had seen that post earlier today, but honestly, that post gives zero specificity whatsoever as all that's said is true of basically all of this area. :angel:[/QUOTE

Not knowing the area or the park structure I had no idea if the post was being specific or not but I did realize that if this person had something of a specific nature to contact WB instead of the authorities would not be a good way to get this information in front of the searchers or LE. But after reading another post regarding the company that couldnt contact Law Enforcement when they had photos and possible pertinent information to relay was a bit dissappointing. Im sure the LE and the FBI have some really good info that they are operating from but you never know if someone has something useful unless you are willing to allow people to be heard. Thanks for responding to my question.

soyesterday
03-01-2010, 09:19 PM
Good for you! You are very strong and brave. Find comfort that you've undoubtedly saved others from the same fate. You'll be in my prayers for continued healing and peace.

Thank you so much

sarx
03-01-2010, 09:19 PM
Have they brought cadaver dogs in to that area? They can be taken on boats and smell through the water to help pinpoint if a body was "pushed" into deeper water.

soyesterday
03-01-2010, 09:21 PM
YOU GO GIRL - keep up that fight! You're important and so is everyone else he has/will hurt. Good for you!!!!!! :furious:

Thank you too so much...really....

Starry Night
03-01-2010, 09:22 PM
God in Heaven bless the searchers-what a relentless group of human beings.

TheMentalist
03-01-2010, 09:23 PM
I pulled this thread up in a search and then realized it has nothing to do with Chelsea King at all. I guess Im desperate for an update on this poor girls fate.

http://www.thelondondailynews.com/police-shot-chelseas-kings-road-update-shot-dead-ipcc-investigate-p-563.html

Billylee
03-01-2010, 09:23 PM
Do we know where on the map they found the hoodie?

nadjatheresa
03-01-2010, 09:25 PM
Correct - it's the orange cop guy on my google map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=105214839277198153112.000480c3d41935b598566&ll=33.056227,-117.101469&spn=0.033307,0.059738&t=h&z=14) and it's called Hernandez Hideaway - it's on the NORTH side of the lake.

That is the most awesome map you created on google! And it is very easy and clear to reference it when looking at your photos and get a good perspective on the area.

Thank you so much for the amazing work!

Curious Me
03-01-2010, 09:28 PM
Psychics having a vision of common trees is not enough in this case. For those who are interested in seeing some of the Astrological charts having to do with Amber Dubois which is the other case JAG is being investigated for doing you'll want to check out what Tuba and Soulscape have to say.

Forensic Astrology - CASE BRIEFINGS only - Page 16 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Ghostwheel
03-01-2010, 09:28 PM
Is that from a PR firm?

Wouldn't LE have a pretty good database?I can speak to this. Not really. Different LE has different format for their databases, they don't all talk nice to each other all the time (a field from one database gets jumbled up when sent to another branch of LE, for example). Sometimes, information gets lost in cyberland.

TheMentalist
03-01-2010, 09:32 PM
After thinking about day Chelsea went missing...how fast the parents responded...then law enforcement....I am starting to wonder if the SO could of been hiding with Chelsea until nightfall. Maybe then sneaking out of the park and dropping her clothing in the process of trying to flee. Just a thought as the clothing was found the next day not the first day of her abduction.

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 09:32 PM
Almost done with the map, they're also (news chopper 10) showing the end of Moonsong Court.

That's where the trail access from Poblado then runs past and overlooks the marshy area, the waterfall area, and basically is the opposite perspective of the search photos I took yesterday.

This photo shows the end of Moonsong. The lowest house (which is toward the middle of the photo on the very left) is the end of the cul-de-sac where there is additional trail access from an open space between homes. It's also marked on my map as a COP area.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2749/4396487228_62c0f12efa_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4396487228/)

soyesterday
03-01-2010, 09:33 PM
KNSD (news 7) at 4:

The search is now RECOVERY not rescue.

Some of her clothing was found along the shoreline and that had his DNA on it.

Neighbors are outraged.

Witnesses say his pants were wet and a bit muddy from the knee down.

Neighbors are angry that the description from the December attack (which they ARE saying was JAG) wasn't made public because they would have found him before this.

They mention his history and his fascination with very young girls (which doesn't fit Chelsea or the other runner - and makes me increasingly thankful nothing happened at the elementary school right by JAG's family's home)

Chelsea's parents are still hoping she will be found.

Searchers and the community are even more determined to find answers and to find her, even with news of the arrest. Even Chargers players came out to search. (Way to go community!! Way to rally for one of our own!)

Her family is currently meeting with the DA to know what they will be facing.

JAG will be arraigned tomorrow.

They said it was a very rough day at Poway High and most of the campus (and community - per my own observations out and about) was dressed in blue and emotions are very high and parents are very concerned and worried about their own kids.

OMG i'm so angry right now....:(
It really makes me wonder....i hope i say this right...what i'm thinking....what makes a child molester turn into a murderer?...like should we always consider someone who is capable of molesting a child capable of murder?...it's so hard to understand.....
like being abused myself for so many years....i want to do what i have to do to keep him from doing it again...even though i know he won't be in jail for very long and he'll just be out like all the others are.....but i honestly can't imagine him capable of murder.....what makes them go that much further to actually take someone's life??? :(
I hope i explained that right...
and also....i'm so frustrated that there are people out there that think these people won't ever do it again....WHY????

sarx
03-01-2010, 09:37 PM
There was evidence at Moonsong Ct area earlier, which would make sense as to why the chopper was there. This is the same area as where the divers are correct?

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 09:40 PM
KFMB (8) at 5:30:

says neighbors in Lake Elsinore are worried for their children if someone that people knew in their neighborhood, who many thought was a nice guy who helped with his gparents at times, turned out to be this horrible guy.

They're showing the chopper very low again blowing the brush back. The chopper landed for a bit and now is up again but very very low.

They intend to search all night still, and are bringing out lifeguard crews in the morning to do more diving.

jnTexas
03-01-2010, 09:41 PM
OMG i'm so angry right now....:(
It really makes me wonder....i hope i say this right...what i'm thinking....what makes a child molester turn into a murderer?...like should we always consider someone who is capable of molesting a child capable of murder?...it's so hard to understand.....
like being abused myself for so many years....i want to do what i have to do to keep him from doing it again...even though i know he won't be in jail for very long and he'll just be out like all the others are.....but i honestly can't imagine him capable of murder.....what makes them go that much further to actually take someone's life??? :(
I hope i explained that right...
and also....i'm so frustrated that there are people out there that think these people won't ever do it again....WHY????

My thoughts on that after being on this site for almost 2 years is. They move on to murder to cover up the crime. Getting rid of the witness so they cannot testify.
Why people think they won't do it again is beyond me.

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 09:41 PM
Have they brought cadaver dogs in to that area? They can be taken on boats and smell through the water to help pinpoint if a body was "pushed" into deeper water.

Still saying nothing about cadaver dogs.

Ghostwheel
03-01-2010, 09:42 PM
After thinking about day Chelsea went missing...how fast the parents responded...then law enforcement....I am starting to wonder if the SO could of been hiding with Chelsea until nightfall. Maybe then sneaking out of the park and dropping her clothing in the process of trying to flee. Just a thought as the clothing was found the next day not the first day of her abduction.I think not, as the park was packed with Search and Rescue that night, and we don't know exactly when anything was found. They weren't saying anything, if you remember, trying not to tip their hand and have a suspect disappear before they were ready to arrest. At least, that's what I get out of it.

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 09:42 PM
KGTV (10):

They have their helicopter now hovering over the Poblado access point - the yellow $ on my map that I reference often - showing cops holding people out from going down there because it leads to the area of intensive search.

sarx
03-01-2010, 09:44 PM
they're fast running out of light for the helicopters to do that effectively.

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 09:48 PM
After thinking about day Chelsea went missing...how fast the parents responded...then law enforcement....I am starting to wonder if the SO could of been hiding with Chelsea until nightfall. Maybe then sneaking out of the park and dropping her clothing in the process of trying to flee. Just a thought as the clothing was found the next day not the first day of her abduction.

I don't think so, based on knowing that neighbhood very well.

People would be out in their yards every time helicopters came over on a boring day just to watch - helicopters hovering as they were Thursday night would have attracted A LOT of attention, and there are A LOT of homes with a 'front row view' of what's going on right now - meaning the area where something apparently happened Thursday.

I think the reason evidence wasn't found until Friday late afternoon is because the initial search was almost TOTALLY of the mindset that this was a SAR of a runner who had gotten injured or something on the trails. They were focusing MUCH closer to the park initially, and the area that juts out by the bridge by the freeway, and the area by the Green Valley Bridge off of West Bernardo, and the front part of the park.

As soon as they worked farther out - the area where the evidence was found and the activity is now - they started finding evidence. The first seeming to have been the shoe and pedometer.

TheMentalist
03-01-2010, 09:49 PM
OMG i'm so angry right now....:(
It really makes me wonder....i hope i say this right...what i'm thinking....what makes a child molester turn into a murderer?...like should we always consider someone who is capable of molesting a child capable of murder?...it's so hard to understand.....
like being abused myself for so many years....i want to do what i have to do to keep him from doing it again...even though i know he won't be in jail for very long and he'll just be out like all the others are.....but i honestly can't imagine him capable of murder.....what makes them go that much further to actually take someone's life??? :(
I hope i explained that right...
and also....i'm so frustrated that there are people out there that think these people won't ever do it again....WHY????

IF ...ONLY...we could understand the pathological mind of a sex offender but I dont believe they can

Paulette
03-01-2010, 09:50 PM
TravelerBug,

A new poster to WS indicated he is a psychic and indicated an area of eucalyptus trees of medium height and a clearing where he felt a strong feeling that someone had buried something. Read post back for details. Do you know of any area like what he describes, and is the area if it exists in the park or around the lake in the general area of the searching being conducted today?

Why would he bury her? That implies he brought a shovel along. So much easier to put her in the lake. How far could he carry her? Wouldn't he be worried someone would come along and spot him? He must have attacked her in a secluded place.

If his pants were wet up to the knees, that's how far he walked into water - and that's not very deep. Now, if he had a car, she could be anywhere.

soyesterday
03-01-2010, 09:52 PM
My thoughts on that after being on this site for almost 2 years is. They move on to murder to cover up the crime. Getting rid of the witness so they cannot testify.
Why people think they won't do it again is beyond me.
It's all so disgusting :(

sarx
03-01-2010, 09:53 PM
where is camino del sur in relation to all this?

Curious Me
03-01-2010, 09:54 PM
10News at 6 pm is going to have the mother of one of JAG's victims.

Formerslueth
03-01-2010, 09:57 PM
I don't think so, based on knowing that neighbhood very well.

People would be out in their yards every time helicopters came over on a boring day just to watch - helicopters hovering as they were Thursday night would have attracted A LOT of attention, and there are A LOT of homes with a 'front row view' of what's going on right now - meaning the area where something apparently happened Thursday.

I think the reason evidence wasn't found until Friday late afternoon is because the initial search was almost TOTALLY of the mindset that this was a SAR of a runner who had gotten injured or something on the trails. They were focusing MUCH closer to the park initially, and the area that juts out by the bridge by the freeway, and the area by the Green Valley Bridge off of West Bernardo, and the front part of the park.

As soon as they worked farther out - the area where the evidence was found and the activity is now - they started finding evidence. The first seeming to have been the shoe and pedometer.

Makes sense because that is where he would exit the park to headback to the condo. That's also where he might dump evidence as he's exiting. Exiting there would be the furthest point away from the comm center; where LE started showing up and her father was yelling for her.

Lot's of activity there right now.

TheMentalist
03-01-2010, 09:58 PM
I don't think so, based on knowing that neighbhood very well.

People would be out in their yards every time helicopters came over on a boring day just to watch - helicopters hovering as they were Thursday night would have attracted A LOT of attention, and there are A LOT of homes with a 'front row view' of what's going on right now - meaning the area where something apparently happened Thursday.

I think the reason evidence wasn't found until Friday late afternoon is because the initial search was almost TOTALLY of the mindset that this was a SAR of a runner who had gotten injured or something on the trails. They were focusing MUCH closer to the park initially, and the area that juts out by the bridge by the freeway, and the area by the Green Valley Bridge off of West Bernardo, and the front part of the park.


As soon as they worked farther out - the area where the evidence was found and the activity is now - they started finding evidence. The first seeming to have been the shoe and pedometer.

It sounds like that makes more sense what you have said and I realize that if he knocked her out like so many many posters are hypothesizing I doubt she would be out very long mayBE 10 min. or so and Im sure she would be fighting for her life. So, it will be interesting to find out if he killed her first and then raped her post mortem. I know that sounds gross but I just dont see how he was able to subdue for any lenght of time without tying her up or something.

Formerslueth
03-01-2010, 09:59 PM
Why would he bury her? That implies he brought a shovel along. So much easier to put her in the lake. How far could he carry her? Wouldn't he be worried someone would come along and spot him? He must have attacked her in a secluded place.

If his pants were wet up to the knees, that's how far he walked into water - and that's not very deep. Now, if he had a car, she could be anywhere.

Missing something on the muddy pants. He was arrested on Sunday. Is someone theorizing he was in the water on Sunday? Or is the theory he was wearing the same clothes he wore on Thrursday?

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 10:01 PM
There was evidence at Moonsong Ct area earlier, which would make sense as to why the chopper was there. This is the same area as where the divers are correct?

The area was below Moonsong, but the street coordinates were Moonsong and Poblado.

The green circled area on my map was the heavy search yesterday, the yellow circle is the area where the evidence was apparently found.

It's the shore NOT really visible here where they are basically panning to when they say "where evidence was found" and this is the area where dive teams are - the waterfall and rocks are just off to the left of the 'finger' of water in the photo

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4057/4395717729_d7d7a2d7d8_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4395717729/)

Voice4theSilent
03-01-2010, 10:07 PM
TravelingBug - Do you know where on your map the "reservoir" is that they are talking about on the Scanner Chatter thread? (sorry if this has already been pointed out!)

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 10:12 PM
Now, for going back to the map.

Here (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=105214839277198153112.000480c3d41935b598566&t=h&ll=33.049825,-117.088723&spn=0.015432,0.038581&z=15) is my current map.

You can click and zoom on the map and I have my photos clipped where there are the little purple cameras.

Here is the panned out map:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2753/4399445413_e064f9fb15_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4399445413/)

Here it is more zoomed in so you can see the perspective between the current heavy search area and the access point to the trails, where the choppers in my pictures were, where the dive team was, where the park is where she began, etc.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4399445379_4e0a892133_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4399445379/)

And here's one more picture zoomed in even more of the area

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2725/4400214036_8d33ce7f58_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4400214036/)

All the labels are on the map, but here are some key things:

Yellow $ = Poblado access to trails near Moonsong Court (currently policed, also easy access from JAG's family home)

Red crosses = areas that are closed off/prohibited by cops

Blue sailboats = dive team areas today

Red ! in a triangle = FBI onshore in the marshy area

green circled area = heavy searches Saturday and Sunday

yellow circled area = area where evidence was reportedly found, area of intensive searches today, area where my photo of the chopper was, area the news media is showing the chopper flying very low and landing and taking off and shining the light

orange cop = where arrest happened

green arrow and star = waterfall area

yellow gas pump = utility station for city workers, etc.

several of the camera locations also show where the access points are to the roads by vehicle for those who asked.

Questions? How can I help clarify?

Curious Me
03-01-2010, 10:17 PM
Missing something on the muddy pants. He was arrested on Sunday. Is someone theorizing he was in the water on Sunday? Or is the theory he was wearing the same clothes he wore on Thrursday?

Please tell me he wasn't going around bragging how he was part of a search team, hence, the muddy pants. :sick: :banghead: :furious:

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 10:19 PM
where is camino del sur in relation to all this?

South quite quite a ways.

Isabella
03-01-2010, 10:19 PM
Travelling Bug I am in England and read these forums after getting into the Caylee and then the Hayleigh cases. I initially read this case somewhere else and decided to put Chelseas name in to see if she had a thread.

I just wanted to say that i think you are absolutely awesome :) I know next to nothing about California but you have put so many pictures up and so many desciptions of the area its almost like we are there with you. I also wanted to say the area looks lovely.

Thank you very very much. I am sure we all appreciate it. :clap:

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 10:20 PM
TravelingBug - Do you know where on your map the "reservoir" is that they are talking about on the Scanner Chatter thread? (sorry if this has already been pointed out!)

The whole thing is considered Lake Hodges Reservoir

LilysMom
03-01-2010, 10:26 PM
OMG i'm so angry right now....:(
i'm so frustrated that there are people out there that think these people won't ever do it again....WHY????

Because this country is big on "redemption". Unfortunately, that should not be extended to EVERY citizen because, as we are finding out more and more frequently, a lot of people can't be redeemed.

We seem to have this need to "fix" people. And some people just can't be fixed either.

Sometimes you just have to put them down.

Tink56
03-01-2010, 10:26 PM
Correct - it's the orange cop guy on my google map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=105214839277198153112.000480c3d41935b598566&ll=33.056227,-117.101469&spn=0.033307,0.059738&t=h&z=14) and it's called Hernandez Hideaway - it's on the NORTH side of the lake.

This truly IS an incredible map, pics, symbols, etc. You should be able to sell it to the prosecution!

MLE
03-01-2010, 10:28 PM
It looks like JAG is heavy set. I think I read somewhere about a marsh. Would it be possible for him to have taken her into the marsh and stand on her body to sink it down into the wet ground, getting his pants wet and muddy in the process?

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 10:32 PM
KFMB (8) at 6:30

They're using extensive sonar equipment to search the bottom of the lake and to search the shoreline, and are hoping by some miracle she might be found alive. 14 miles of shoreline are being examined, though some far more closely than others.

Helicopters will continue to stay up all night searching.

Dogs were brought into JAG's mother home.

Curious Me
03-01-2010, 10:32 PM
This truly IS an incredible map, pics, symbols, etc. You should be able to sell it to the prosecution!

TravelingBug, You Rock!

Tink56 is right. You have a marketable talent, TB.:clap::clap::clap:

TheMentalist
03-01-2010, 10:33 PM
Please tell me he wasn't going around bragging how he was part of a search team, hence, the muddy pants. :sick: :banghead: :furious:

Am I missing something? I have no idea who mentioned mud on his legs or waist high mud. I know it was mentioned...I traced the thread back to CuriousMe but did not get a response as to where this information came from when I asked. What I remember reading is that this was determined when he was arrested and booked...I dont know if that came from the police scanner or where that originated. At the time that info made it to this thread alot was going on with the breaking news of his arrest. Does anyone know where that came from? I know after reading it I had put a few theories out there about how hard it is to get lake mudd off of you and it can stay on you for days. I dont think anyone said anything about the SO in the water Sunday night and I dont even remember it being muddy pants. My recollection was mud on his legs. Hope that helps.

nursebeeme
03-01-2010, 10:33 PM
The 22-year-old college student usually runs with her pit bull and a can of mace when she is back home in Colorado Springs.

But Candice was on her own the morning of Dec. 27 as she set off for an eight- to 10-mile jog in Rancho Bernardo Community Park — an outing that quickly turned violent when she was attacked by a man in jeans.

Her mother, Lorie, talked publicly for the first time Monday about the assault on her daughter and news that the same man has been arrested in connection with the disappearance of 17-year-old Chelsea King.

King, a Poway High School senior, went jogging in the same area Thursday but never came home.

“I really feel for the mother. That could’ve been my daughter,” said Candice’s mother. She agreed to be interviewed by The San Diego Union-Tribune only if her family's last name was not used.

Investigators have positively linked the Dec. 27 attack to John Albert Gardner III, a 30-year-old registered sex offender arrested Sunday on suspicion of murder and rape in connection with Chelsea’s disappearance, San Diego police Capt. Jim Collins confirmed Monday.

He declined to say how the link was made, citing the ongoing sheriff’s investigation, but said local authorities are working with police in Colorado Springs.

San Diego police are also reviewing any evidence that might have been recovered in the initial attack and were working to see if it could yield any further clues.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/01/december-attack-jogger-linked-chelsea-king/

sarx
03-01-2010, 10:35 PM
Info from another board on the way the search volunteers are being handled

How it worked:
You first stand in a line with your information and they verify your license number with your id.
Next you receive a wrist band that has a number on it and they have you sign in with wrist band number and cell phone number.
You are accounted for before, after and during the search.
There is an information briefing you go to before you go to a designated leader (ours was a fireman).
There are approx. 20 people per group and you are given instruction and choices of what type of volunteer work you will choose to do:
Ground search (Through brush) or knocking on doors in groups (Never alone)
They say the knocking has gotten the most results so far.
The leader has been given a map sent over I believe from police.
They show you the boundaries and how they will account for you before during and after the search.
The search is suppose to be broken into approx. 1 1/2 hour search times and then 1/2 before for briefing plus 1/2 hour afterward for Debriefing. A total of atleast 2 1/2 hours after you get into a group.

If you are doing the ground search you walk through brush and creeks, etc. looking for any items of interest. You flag and write details regarding any identified items.
You try to search in a line 20 feet apart and never out of eyesight. They say this has about an 80% success rate at this spread.
All leave together after everyone is accounted for and you go back to base for debriefing.
The leader is the main one explaining items that were found and of interest that have been marked.
These are marked and labeled on map in greater detail with another debriefing advisor who will send authorities in to "discover" suspicious items. Then you cut off your wrist band and they check again at end of day to assure all accounted for.

The Lake Hodges area is Closed off for Police only. There are other areas they need searching around this perimeter. They are also looking for items over 1 year old in connection with the other girl Amber (Dubois) from last year (Feb. 2009).

MLE
03-01-2010, 10:35 PM
One thing they might want to look for is places where heavy rocks may have been lifted up off the ground. When big rocks are picked up, a big dent (the shape of the bottom of the rock) is left in the ground and no grass is there as a result of the rock. I'm saying this could be possible if he used rocks to weigh her body down in the water. These dents in the ground would probably be somewhat close to the water, because rocks like that are heavy and a pain in the ass to carry a long way.

Cubbies2010
03-01-2010, 10:37 PM
I thought someone said it came from a Facebook post... Not sure though.

ETA: re: the mud on his legs/pants

sarx
03-01-2010, 10:37 PM
I would guess that they made the positive link to the Dec. 27 case by a photo line up.

Curious Me
03-01-2010, 10:37 PM
KFMB (8) at 6:30

They're using extensive sonar equipment to search the bottom of the lake and to search the shoreline, and are hoping by some miracle she might be found alive. 14 miles of shoreline are being examined, though some far more closely than others.

Helicopters will continue to stay up all night searching.

Dogs were brought into JAG's mother home.


Which kind of dogs? Were they cadaver dogs?

I don't think JAG's going to talk. It's really is tell tale and I'm sick, worried, and so darn angry.

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 10:38 PM
Travelling Bug I am in England and read these forums after getting into the Caylee and then the Hayleigh cases. I initially read this case somewhere else and decided to put Chelseas name in to see if she had a thread.

I just wanted to say that i think you are absolutely awesome :) I know next to nothing about California but you have put so many pictures up and so many desciptions of the area its almost like we are there with you. I also wanted to say the area looks lovely.

Thank you very very much. I am sure we all appreciate it. :clap:

:blushing:

I'm glad to be able to help...though sorry for the reason I'm finally able to contribute more than normal on here.

In some ways maybe this makes it easier, trying to approach in 'how would I be able to convey this place, what's happening, etc. for others.'

Instead of thinking about what's unfolding in my own backyard...to a girl who's family is close with many of my friends and neighbors...from a school I also competed at and where many of my former students have been anticipating graduating with Chelsea...on trails I know like the back of my hand...in a park and a lake area that I go to for both peace and exercise, to escape....in a community I call home, I try to think of what would help me if I were in your shoes and following this case - the role I'm in far more often.

And I try to figure out how to capture this place...a a place that is so much more than an anomaly of a crime or a neighborhood known for being devastated in the recent wildfires... how to depict a community that truly does rally around one another, not just say they do...a law enforcement department that has undertaken a never-before-seen-in-its-scope search for a girl beloved by many, and determined not to rest until there are answers...how to make this place where a tragedy seems to have occurred not come across to everyone else as a place that's only filled with this recent ugliness, but to convey the beauty, the peace, and the uniqueness that those of us who live here see and know and experience every day.

I guess this is one small way I can help - by bringing awareness of what's going on, and also what this place really is to all of us who call it home - whether to my fellow neighbors, or to those of you halfway around the world!

Thanks to everyone who cares about Chelsea and is praying she'll be found, for those who have commented on observations of odd things here, and those who have prompted others to report those observations or experiences, for those of you who have asked questions and challenged our perspective, but really, as I started out, mostly for all of you who are praying for Chelsea and her family and hoping that in the midst of what appears to be tragedy, we'll also see justice eventually come and the see the beauty of people caring about others.

LilysMom
03-01-2010, 10:39 PM
It looks like JAG is heavy set. I think I read somewhere about a marsh. Would it be possible for him to have taken her into the marsh and stand on her body to sink it down into the wet ground, getting his pants wet and muddy in the process?

There's an image I could do without. I never would have thought of that! Is that even possible? I mean, I know it is possible to stand on her body to sink it, but once his weight is off her, wouldn't it pop back up?

WHERE is she? I just don't understand with the line search why they haven't found her if she isn't in the water??

TravelingBug, any thoughts?

I know I heard on the scanner that they had an FBI team waiting for quads or a low flying helicopter because they found evidence that they couldn't reach, but my husband is upset that I am following this so closely so I had to pull away and make him a nice big dinner (currently cooking) to appease him. :furious: I never heard what happened with that.

I just want them to find her.

MLE
03-01-2010, 10:40 PM
Do we know what type of pants JAG was wearing? Maybe would could wear a similar pair of the same fabric and gradually run the water deeper in a bathtub to see how deep the water would have to be for the pants to wick the water up to the knee level. That could be an indicator of the depth of the water where he went.

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 10:41 PM
Am I missing something? I have no idea who mentioned mud on his legs or waist high mud. I know it was mentioned...I traced the thread back to CuriousMe but did not get a response as to where this information came from when I asked. What I remember reading is that this was determined when he was arrested and booked...I dont know if that came from the police scanner or where that originated. At the time that info made it to this thread alot was going on with the breaking news of his arrest. Does anyone know where that came from? I know after reading it I had put a few theories out there about how hard it is to get lake mudd off of you and it can stay on you for days. I dont think anyone said anything about the SO in the water Sunday night and I dont even remember it being muddy pants. My recollection was mud on his legs. Hope that helps.

I posted an hour or so ago that the news just stated that he was wet and had some mud on his pants up to his knees.

Billylee
03-01-2010, 10:41 PM
Is there much of a current in this lake? Anybody know? and which way it flows?

TheMentalist
03-01-2010, 10:42 PM
Which kind of dogs? Were they cadaver dogs?

I don't think JAG's going to talk. It's really is tell tale and I'm sick, worried, and so darn angry.

They are probably trying to pick up a scent of Chelsea King or rule out the mothers home.

SusanB
03-01-2010, 10:42 PM
TravelingBug, You Rock!

Tink56 is right. You have a marketable talent, TB.:clap::clap::clap:

I totally agree. Thank you so much for your input!:blowkiss:

TheMentalist
03-01-2010, 10:48 PM
http://video.ap.org/?f=AP&pid=F8z2Kg6uTbegafbROWXZqRGiGWEPUA21

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 10:52 PM
Is there much of a current in this lake? Anybody know? and which way it flows?

Not much of a current, especially at the area they're looking at and near the freeway. Much, much further down, even past the restaurant and nearer the dam there's a slight current, but that's really it, and it's not considerable.

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 10:52 PM
Which kind of dogs? Were they cadaver dogs?

I don't think JAG's going to talk. It's really is tell tale and I'm sick, worried, and so darn angry.

News didn't specify the type of dog searching the home. I'm sure we'll hear soon!

IzzyBlanche
03-01-2010, 10:54 PM
Hello.

Longtime lurker (since Danielle van Dam case) here.

I cannot remember if the white pickup mentioned early on in connection with Amber Dubois' disappearance was later ruled out, but if you go to the link below and scroll down, there is a picture of what is supposed to be JAG's Lake Elsinore home, and that sure looks to me like a white pickup in the driveway.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/feb/28/lake-elsinore-man-arrested-poway-teens-disappearan/

Billylee
03-01-2010, 10:58 PM
Not much of a current, especially at the area they're looking at and near the freeway. Much, much further down, even past the restaurant and nearer the dam there's a slight current, but that's really it, and it's not considerable.

If the items of evidence could have washed up, I was just trying to figure out from where. So, is the dam NSE orW?
Great job on the map by the way!

Billylee
03-01-2010, 11:00 PM
I posted an hour or so ago (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4869862&postcount=731) that the news just stated that he was wet and had some mud on his pants up to his knees.

So I'm thinking maybe he was at the restaurant because he just went back to make sure she was submerged and/or possibly recover a piece of telling evidence?

sarx
03-01-2010, 11:01 PM
The waterfall is flowing into the lake at that spot correct? If there is a creek/stream coming in then there will be a current, not nec. strong, but it does take much to float something out to a different area of the lake. It only takes 6 inches of moving water to move a car, so you can see how little it takes to move 100 or so pounds.

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 11:06 PM
There's an image I could do without. I never would have thought of that! Is that even possible? I mean, I know it is possible to stand on her body to sink it, but once his weight is off her, wouldn't it pop back up?

WHERE is she? I just don't understand with the line search why they haven't found her if she isn't in the water??

TravelingBug, any thoughts?

I know I heard on the scanner that they had an FBI team waiting for quads or a low flying helicopter because they found evidence that they couldn't reach, but my husband is upset that I am following this so closely so I had to pull away and make him a nice big dinner (currently cooking) to appease him. :furious: I never heard what happened with that.

I just want them to find her.

Yes, there is marshy area - many, in fact. Typically much of the area by the footbridge is actually marshy, whereas now it's got water because of all of our rain.

The area near the yellow circle on my map is marshy, there are some marshy areas around much of the shoreline, including on the north side. Honestly, you really would almost have to characterize many areas as marshy...but they seemed to be almost solely focused on the marshy area near the yellow and green circles on my map, and one area on the north shore.

ATVs are there and have been used off and on since she went missing Thursday night. The news at 6 showed ATVs down by where the chopper was shining the light in the marshy area.

I question his being muddy with anything to do with hiding her body because I really think that had to have happened immediately (or within an hour or two) of her abduction/assault/murder. As I said, too much happened too quickly, and by midday Friday the entire lake and park area all the way around was swarming with authorities.

In addition, on Sunday, while there was public access to at least most of the north side (where he was arrested at the restaurant) there was WAY too much foottraffic by locals on the north side trying to see what was going on. People were on HIGH alert. ANYTHING even remotely suspicious would be reported and I just can't see him taking that risk. I could be wrong, but that just seems WAY risky to me :waitasec: seeing what I was seeing...and with him having to have been aware of all that was going on b/c of the non-stop news, choppers, cops EVERYWHERE - marked and unmarked, etc.

The area on the north side (now circled in purple on the map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=105214839277198153112.000480c3d41935b598566&t=h&ll=33.070937,-117.110438&spn=0.015428,0.038581&z=15)) is actually right by Del Dios Community Park, at least in part.

~~~

My feeling is - the attack/assault/etc. happened on the south side in the green and yellow circled areas, or thereabouts. That's been the area of intense focus. I believe they are searching there looking for evidence of what happened, and more evidence tying the two of them to that place besides whatever they already found clothing, etc. wise.

I'm guessing they are thinking she was disposed of (or additional evidence - or, honestly, maybe even evidence that makes them look there b/c of Amber?) in the area I now have circled on the map in purple on the north side. Perhaps he went out trying to look like a looky-loo on Sunday and was trying to sneak around, making sure she hadn't been found, got muddy, and then went to eat at the restaurant when he was arrested.

I'd also suspect he was being followed based on the DNA evidence and that's why they are searching both sides of the lake in two very different areas because they know exactly where he was over there.

ETA, I think that they are NOT really looking for her on land, only evidence. I think they believe she's either in the water or somewhere else. I get the feeling that's why it's the water's edge focus and in the water and dive teams, and they're not out combing the shore in other areas, just in the water and immediately around two specific areas.

JenB
03-01-2010, 11:11 PM
It sounds like that makes more sense what you have said and I realize that if he knocked her out like so many many posters are hypothesizing I doubt she would be out very long mayBE 10 min. or so and Im sure she would be fighting for her life. So, it will be interesting to find out if he killed her first and then raped her post mortem. I know that sounds gross but I just dont see how he was able to subdue for any lenght of time without tying her up or something.

He is freaking enormous and she is 115 lbs, if I recall correctly. If you come to/wake up with a 250 lb person on top of you, there isn't a lot of fighting you can do. And, she may have assessed the situation, realized her physical disadvantage, and decided not to fight back at that time.

I hope and pray Chelsea is alive and may one day read up on her case, and I know other rape victims are reading this, and I want to be careful to clarify that physically fighting your attacker or being killed trying to fight aren't the only valid options when one is being attacked.

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 11:11 PM
If the items of evidence could have washed up, I was just trying to figure out from where. So, is the dam NSE orW?
Great job on the map by the way!

sort of south west (I marked it now on the map - it's much further than it looks to be on the map if you're actually on the water or driving it)

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 11:14 PM
The waterfall is flowing into the lake at that spot correct? If there is a creek/stream coming in then there will be a current, not nec. strong, but it does take much to float something out to a different area of the lake. It only takes 6 inches of moving water to move a car, so you can see how little it takes to move 100 or so pounds.

There's actually NOT really a creek or stream...it's just overflow from rain right now really. Most people don't even realize there are sometimes those waterfalls there because it's so rare and it's not like there's waterflowing there (I added photos to another post that'll show it)

In fact, the area where they're searching near there is often totally dry and the water level much further toward the main part of the lake.

sarx
03-01-2010, 11:16 PM
Looking at the map and pictures it doesn't look like there is any quick and easy access down to that area where the searching is focused. Is that correct?

If I'm looking at it right and that is where clothing was found, it is highly unlikely that he would have carried her or walked out with her. While 115 lbs is light, it's a lot of weight (dead weight, meaning not moving, not nec. dead) for someone even of his size to carry out of that area.

sarx
03-01-2010, 11:17 PM
Is the water flowing into the lake at all or does it just kind of fizzle out before it gets into the inlet?

SDJFig
03-01-2010, 11:27 PM
HERE IS ONE THING WE ALL CAN DO THAT I WANT TO GET OUT THERE. PROTECT YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY BY BEING AWARE OF WHO IS LIVING IN YOUR AREA.

You just need the zip codes to find out how many Sex Offenders are living in your zip code, and you can see their photos if you press on a name. Some of these sites map it out by street, and have a picture of the RSO on your street.

Please if you have children you really need to do this.

National Sex Offenders:
http://www.nsopw.gov/Core/Conditions...ookieSupport=1
Advanced Search by Zip Code

Also:
http://www.arjis.org/


http://www.familywatchdog.us/ShowMap.asp?frm=0
Type in State then the zip code you want to check out

National Registry by State:http://www.nsopw.gov/Core/PublicRegistrySites.aspx

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 11:32 PM
Besides Chargers coming out to show their support, Millenium Laboratories has said they will provide meals for the searchers for the rest of the week!

Wow! That's awesome!

That's a reflection of our community...not this whackadoo who's caused all of this by bringing harm to one of our own!

Tink56
03-01-2010, 11:35 PM
:blushing:

I'm glad to be able to help...though sorry for the reason I'm finally able to contribute more than normal on here.

In some ways maybe this makes it easier, trying to approach in 'how would I be able to convey this place, what's happening, etc. for others.'

Instead of thinking about what's unfolding in my own backyard...to a girl who's family is close with many of my friends and neighbors...from a school I also competed at and where many of my former students have been anticipating graduating with Chelsea...on trails I know like the back of my hand...in a park and a lake area that I go to for both peace and exercise, to escape....in a community I call home, I try to think of what would help me if I were in your shoes and following this case - the role I'm in far more often.

And I try to figure out how to capture this place...a a place that is so much more than an anomaly of a crime or a neighborhood known for being devastated in the recent wildfires... how to depict a community that truly does rally around one another, not just say they do...a law enforcement department that has undertaken a never-before-seen-in-its-scope search for a girl beloved by many, and determined not to rest until there are answers...how to make this place where a tragedy seems to have occurred not come across to everyone else as a place that's only filled with this recent ugliness, but to convey the beauty, the peace, and the uniqueness that those of us who live here see and know and experience every day.

I guess this is one small way I can help - by bringing awareness of what's going on, and also what this place really is to all of us who call it home - whether to my fellow neighbors, or to those of you halfway around the world!

Thanks to everyone who cares about Chelsea and is praying she'll be found, for those who have commented on observations of odd things here, and those who have prompted others to report those observations or experiences, for those of you who have asked questions and challenged our perspective, but really, as I started out, mostly for all of you who are praying for Chelsea and her family and hoping that in the midst of what appears to be tragedy, we'll also see justice eventually come and the see the beauty of people caring about others.



From a "city" San Diegan who also loves RB and its communities, you've brought tears to my eyes, thanks in my heart, and special prayers for that special girl...

Formerslueth
03-01-2010, 11:37 PM
I would guess that they made the positive link to the Dec. 27 case by a photo line up.

DNA from her elbow also from when she elbowed him in the nose.

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 11:38 PM
Looking at the map and pictures it doesn't look like there is any quick and easy access down to that area where the searching is focused. Is that correct?

If I'm looking at it right and that is where clothing was found, it is highly unlikely that he would have carried her or walked out with her. While 115 lbs is light, it's a lot of weight (dead weight, meaning not moving, not nec. dead) for someone even of his size to carry out of that area.

There's actually very easy access via the trail from Poblado, or even at the end of Moonsong. There's road access that they can use to get around the utility station area that's nearby at the end of Monticook, as well. I'm trying to zoom in here (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=105214839277198153112.000480c3d41935b598566&ll=33.043772,-117.087833&spn=0.002082,0.003734&t=h&z=18) for you so you can see the access.

It narrows from there a bit. But that's one of the favorite trails around the lake there, so it's very passable and not a difficult way to go really.

I would guess he may have hidden her initially, and then come back with a vehicle or something and moved her (assuming she's not right there - which, with the amount of divers that have been there and the searchers in that area now three day straight, very much focusing there - I'm guessing she'd have been found.

But yes, carrying her all the way out would be very hard - especially because if he came the whole way on foot initially (my hunch) he'd have to cross Poblado to continue the trail over to Matinal...

Whereas by car he could park along Poblado near Moonsong to access easily. I don't see how he could have done that unless it was on the earlier side - 3:30 ish before as many people are home and out and about, and when families are still picking up kids from school, etc. or else he'd have been seen.

SuziQ
03-01-2010, 11:39 PM
Channel 8 (KFMB) news at 5:

A shoe, sweatshirt and sunglasses were among the evidence discovered.

There were still nearly 1000 volunteers out today, even with work and school back - the number is NOT much less than it was when people were off over the weekend.

KFMB has their chopper showing one of the two dive boats out in the lake area.

They showed the area where TWO dive team boats have been spending the day. That location is right in the little area I kept calling the "finger" area.

There's another marshy area the helicopter has been over, but I'm still trying to locate that to post it in my next map update coming shortly.

Fwiw, our scanner experts in the scanner thread picked up on and reported this before the media did. Definitely up to the minute news in the scanner thread. You will hear it there first. They have had me on the edge of my seat all day.

Major kudos to our scanner peeps!

sarx
03-01-2010, 11:39 PM
Ooh, hadn't heard the elbow part. That helps! Where'd you find that?

SuziQ
03-01-2010, 11:41 PM
BBM that stuff was heard on the scanner earlier and posted in the scanner thread.

ETA: scanner thread scoped the news. hehe

Yes they did!

Sorry y'all for being so far behind and thanks to everyone for their maps, photos, and boots on the ground reporting!

jnTexas
03-01-2010, 11:42 PM
DNA from her elbow also from when she elbowed him in the nose.

that would be aweful if they had his dna off her elbow in the Dec 27th attack case. That would mean they never ran it in the system. This guy's dna should be in the system since he is a RSO. If that is the case they could've prevented Chelsea being attacked by this guy.

Has this been in the media? Just wondering if this is a fact or just a thought?

sarx
03-01-2010, 11:43 PM
It would be really risky on his part to carry her out especially in daylight. Was this area covered by police on Thursday night or could he have gone back that first night?

TravelingBug
03-01-2010, 11:48 PM
Is the water flowing into the lake at all or does it just kind of fizzle out before it gets into the inlet?

Historically it's more fizzled out into just a few trickles that even get to the lake. But I've not been down there the last six weeks with all this rain, so I can only say what I saw from the end of the streets above looking down at it.

It really more pools at the bottom and is basically separate from the lake in a rocky area.

If you look at the photo here zoomed in (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48023608@N08/4396482152/sizes/l/), you can see the lack of any water source above them.

sarx
03-01-2010, 11:50 PM
According to 10 news she made a positive id and dna from her elbow "may" have tied him to the attack.

sarx
03-01-2010, 11:53 PM
I tried to measure the distance up to the road (moonsong) via the map. Looks to be about an 1/8 of a mile, is that right?

passionflower
03-01-2010, 11:55 PM
How many victims lives has this creep ruined???
Are the Le just looking for Chelsea? or are there others???

socalsuz
03-01-2010, 11:56 PM
To all my fellow San Diegans- and especially to my north county sisters and brothers, you show that our big county is really just a collection of small communities who stick together!!!!!! Hearts go out to you in RB and Poway. Everyone cares!!!!!!!!!!!

sarx
03-01-2010, 11:57 PM
Passionflower, they have connected him to an attack in Dec., are looking into him for the Amber Dubois case from a year ago and hopefully are looking at any others that fit this marker.

Tink56
03-01-2010, 11:58 PM
It would be really risky on his part to carry her out especially in daylight. Was this area covered by police on Thursday night or could he have gone back that first night?

I suppose he could have used a large garbage bag or ruck sack to move her during daylight or night without too much notice early in the investigation. I do think he must have been surprised how quickly LE arrived. Hopefully that could work to Chelsea's advantage.

sarx
03-02-2010, 12:02 AM
TB, how frequented is this area? Steady stream of hikers/joggers, a couple an hour, couple a day?

Tink, Don't know about your area, but someone in my area heads out of a park carrying a large bag over their shoulder I'm going to look twice and remember that! Though, if you it's not a much traveled area then that could be easier to get away with.

Billylee
03-02-2010, 12:02 AM
How is the access to the lake from Superior Ready Mix where they sell "concrete blocks"?

TravelingBug
03-02-2010, 12:02 AM
It would be really risky on his part to carry her out especially in daylight. Was this area covered by police on Thursday night or could he have gone back that first night?

Cops were swarming and helicopters were all over, so it'd have been hard - although the major focus was closer to the park itself they were still all over and that was obvious, and there were a lot of sirens for awhile, so he'd have known instantly people knew something was amiss.

That cul-de-sac, and that Legends community there (the streets of Moon Song, Sun Maiden, and High Mesa Court, and Bear Dance which sort of perpendicularly connects the three) is QUITE close knit and people very much are aware of their neighbors and what's going on and if there's a strange car parked on the street people are talking about it...so it'd be very hard for him to do anything by dinner time or later because people are too alert. And after that, although it'd be dark, with all the commotion, they'd be even more aware of anyone unusual there. And the Poblado access point is on a relatively highly traveled street - everyone going back into the west part of Westwood uses it -so that'd have been a risk.

I think she's in the water in the area...I think there's more evidence he may have tried to dispose of (or, like I said earlier, maybe something giving them cause to investigate if something having to do with Amber is over there) on the north side...because unless he did it during the earlier afternoon hours before the alert was sounded (and then that's the huge risk of daylight) I just don't see him having had a window to remove her after that.

socalsuz
03-02-2010, 12:03 AM
Question...Did we ever confirm or deny that he was wet when they found him at The Hideaway? If true, what do you think it may signify? What a sick little puppy that he was enjoying himself while people searched for this sweet girl all around him on Sunday.

Also, wondering if the gal that thought she saw him hiking on Mount Woodson is on to something? Was he muddy from taking her there? Anyway he could have gotten her up there on Thursday night and maybe went back up on Sunday to check up on his work?

sarx
03-02-2010, 12:08 AM
I'm thinking the same thing TB, he's dumb, but they're generally cowards and wouldn't risk it. It just looks like it's too exposed with the potential for too many people to see him carrying her out.

As far as his pants go, it would no surprise me at all if he had been one of the 1000 searchers. They can't check the id's and if he was they're not going to tell us, it'll take someone that was on a team with him coming forward to find out. I doubt seriously he was still muddy from 2 days prior.

TravelingBug
03-02-2010, 12:10 AM
TB, how frequented is this area? Steady stream of hikers/joggers, a couple an hour, couple a day?

Tink, Don't know about your area, but someone in my area heads out of a park carrying a large bag over their shoulder I'm going to look twice and remember that! Though, if you it's not a much traveled area then that could be easier to get away with.


Oh it varies. On a nice day there are a relatively steady stream throughout the day. On a nice weekend even more than that.

It's hard to say how many exactly because there are so many different webs of trails that I'm not sure how to even begin to guess how many at a given time because some go out there and branch off one way and some another and so on, so...it all sort of depends on where you're looking.

Not sure how to answer that helpfully - also because you have those who start out from the park area, those who start from Poblado, those those who start behind the neighborhood, or Moonsong or Monticook, etc., and those who started even further west and worked their way in.

It's a complicated area - and I think really the searchers deserve a lot of credit for having worked and found anything as quickly they did in such a vast and confusing place with some difficult terrain.

TravelingBug
03-02-2010, 12:13 AM
How is the access to the lake from Superior Ready Mix where they sell "concrete blocks"?

I had to even google to see where that was. I mean, it's close as in 12-ish miles, but...not like right here. It's much much closer to where Amber lived.

socalsuz
03-02-2010, 12:13 AM
TB, that makes sense. He may have killed her instantly after attacking her. No witness...and then thrown her in the water.

TravelingBug
03-02-2010, 12:14 AM
Locals - tomorrow is wear "orange" day to show solidarity for Chelsea's family and the searchers.

cluciano63
03-02-2010, 12:14 AM
one of the scariest parts of this whole horror is that LE started looking so quickly and yet here we are...it was not soon enough apparently, i wonder if they can ever make it soon enough as by the time someone is noticed to be late coming home, the event has probably already transpired...like with poor Somer

sarx
03-02-2010, 12:16 AM
Fair enough, though it does sound like there are enough people coming and going that he would have known that he wasn't in a completely isolated area and that would affect the risks he would take.

What is the elevation change between the lake and the streets/houses? Do any of the houses have views down into that area?

TravelingBug
03-02-2010, 12:17 AM
Question...Did we ever confirm or deny that he was wet when they found him at The Hideaway? If true, what do you think it may signify? What a sick little puppy that he was enjoying himself while people searched for this sweet girl all around him on Sunday.

Also, wondering if the gal that thought she saw him hiking on Mount Woodson is on to something? Was he muddy from taking her there? Anyway he could have gotten her up there on Thursday night and maybe went back up on Sunday to check up on his work?

I posted earlier that the news at 4 said that he was wet and there was some mud on his pants from the knees down.

Mount Woodson is even MORE popular for hikers and climbers. If he'd been on Woodson then we'd have hundreds of reports pouring in from people who saw him. I think that person is probably mistaken. I "buy" the sightings of him near Lake Hodges - on the trails, on the north side, etc., but Woodson? This weekend? I think we'd know if he had been there because there'd be many more people saying it, and that's not at all the case.

He shouldn't have been wet from Woodson, either. Muddy a bit, maybe if he fell, but not wet with some mud, especially below the legs. That to me says having stepped in water, and that wouldn't fit with Woodson.

socalsuz
03-02-2010, 12:18 AM
It also appears that this scumbag used Grannie's address in Lake Elsinore, but really still lived mostly down here if we are to believe the Rock Springs address and then also he frequented the fam's home on Matinal...

Billylee
03-02-2010, 12:20 AM
I had to even google to see where that was. I mean, it's close as in 12-ish miles, but...not like right here. It's much much closer to where Amber lived.

It shows on your map as being just above where the inlet is that they're searching, just the other side of the lake. Your yellow area is darn pointing to their location. (North I'd guess it would be, as I can't seem to find a legend for direction on the google map.) Are we talking about the same place? I'm still wondering if the items could have washed to a different area, that's what took me across the lake. This guy I don't think would drag her dead body to the lake when he could have driven her someplace and dumped her off.

cloudajo
03-02-2010, 12:21 AM
Has anyone been able to find out any details about JAG's job(s) if he worked? I think someone mentioned an automotive repair company?

Has anyone been able to find a facebook, myspace, linkedin, etc. profile for him? I haven't been able to find anything.

TravelingBug
03-02-2010, 12:22 AM
Fair enough, though it does sound like there are enough people coming and going that he would have known that he wasn't in a completely isolated area and that would affect the risks he would take.

What is the elevation change between the lake and the streets/houses? Do any of the houses have views down into that area?

Virtually all of the homes on many of the streets there have varying. It's gorgeous - and typically very quiet. You don't often wind up there if you don't belong there because they're out of the way. And unless you know the area, most people wouldn't even know the trail access points and views beyond some of the homes.

That's why so many people love that part of Westwood. We're talking about homes on about 5 streets having those varying views of that area. They are staggered up the hillside both ways, so the elevation changes as far as the distance down.

cloudajo
03-02-2010, 12:24 AM
I know this has been asked, but I too am wondering if they are using water search dogs...

How Water Search Dogs Work

A brief explanation of the makeup of human scent will assist in the understanding of how a dog's nose can penetrate the surface of water. Remember that human scent is composed of numerous chemicals, some produced by the human body and others applied to the body and clothing in the form of various hygiene products (soap, deodorant, shampoo, laundry detergent, etc.). While many of the hygiene products are readily water soluble, many of those produced by the body are not. A number of those are volatile oils and other substances that do not readily dissolve in water and are in fact lighter than water. When these molecules are released into the water they float to the surface. Upon contact with air they "dissolve" in the air as gaseous vapor that is carried on the wind to the dog's nose. (An analogy would be our ability to smell gasoline released into the water which floats to the surface and produces an odor we can detect. Since a dog's scenting ability is up to 100 million times more sensitive than a human's, it stands to reason that we would be unaware of what the dog is detecting.)

So in reality the dog is detecting the point at which the scent has risen to the water surface, rather than the actual underwater source of the scent. This is an important point to remember, and we will come back to it later when discussing the human part of the dog team.

Advantages of Using Dogs

With the understanding of how dogs are able to detect scent, it becomes easier to answer the question of when and how to use them in the search effort. Some other common methods of searching water include visual searches from shore, boats, bridges, and airplanes, draglines, pike poles, underwater sonar and of course divers. It must be emphasized that dogs are not a substitute for these other methods, but rather a complementary resource to improve the efficiency of any of them.
[snipped]

http://www.absarokasearchdogs.org/training/fielding_a_water_search_dog.php

AmandaReckonwith
03-02-2010, 12:24 AM
http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Chelsea%20King/?action=view&current=22-1.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Chelsea%20King/?action=view&current=22-1.jpg)

http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Chelsea%20King/?action=view&current=24-1.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Chelsea%20King/?action=view&current=24-1.jpg)

Gardner being arrested at Hernandez Hideaway

Mick
03-02-2010, 12:27 AM
TravelerBug,

A new poster to WS indicated he is a psychic and indicated an area of eucalyptus trees of medium height and a clearing where he felt a strong feeling that someone had buried something. Read post back for details. Do you know of any area like what he describes, and is the area if it exists in the park or around the lake in the general area of the searching being conducted today?

In the vision I had, the vantage point would have been possible from either the secon or third 'hill' down view in this picture - lookinng towards the water. Or it could have ben from somewhere along the closest shore

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2533/4151250886_d3777c8da2.jpg

Are there eucs oneither of those 'hills?

glitterghost
03-02-2010, 12:28 AM
Sorry if this has already been said, this boards pages are growing rapidly. Muddy from the knees down means w/e he was doing cant be too deep, thus easier to find.
His pants being wet= the waterfall area?

TravelingBug
03-02-2010, 12:29 AM
It shows on your map as being just above where the inlet is that they're searching, just the other side of the lake. Your yellow area is darn pointing to their location. (North I'd guess it would be, as I can't seem to find a legend for direction on the google map.) Are we talking about the same place? I'm still wondering if the items could have washed to a different area, that's what took me across the lake. This guy I don't think would drag her dead body to the lake when he could have driven her someplace and dumped her off.

That's actually mislabeled on the map (as are the RB community park, the rec center, the Joselyn Center, etc. )

That's totally and completely trail over there where it's labeled as the Ready Mix place, there's nothing there that's business, etc. whatsoever.

The TRUE address 1508 W. Mission Road Escondido CA 92029 per their website, http://www.superiorrm.com/contact.htm

And that is the place I was saying that's 12 miles north.

Here it is on google. West Mission is near 78, not that little surface trail area by the lake :) and that is all industrial type places right there along Mission. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1508%20W.%20Mission%20Road%20Escondido%20CA %2092029&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

AmandaReckonwith
03-02-2010, 12:30 AM
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Chelsea%20King/Integrascan.jpg

cloudajo
03-02-2010, 12:30 AM
http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Chelsea%20King/?action=view&current=22-1.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Chelsea%20King/?action=view&current=22-1.jpg)

http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Chelsea%20King/?action=view&current=24-1.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Chelsea%20King/?action=view&current=24-1.jpg)

Gardner being arrested at Hernandez Hideaway

Thanks. Here's another one - same pic - just different resolution I think.

http://www.sandiego6.com/media/lib/38/b/8/e/b8e5c153-4863-4582-8317-a88d8b0972a9/Original.jpg

glitterghost
03-02-2010, 12:31 AM
Has anyone been able to find out any details about JAG's job(s) if he worked? I think someone mentioned an automotive repair company?

Has anyone been able to find a facebook, myspace, linkedin, etc. profile for him? I haven't been able to find anything.
He is only 30 right? And I read he owned a repair shop in the 90s. Wouldnt that make him awfully young to own and operate an auto repair shop???

jnTexas
03-02-2010, 12:32 AM
Sorry if this has already been said, this boards pages are growing rapidly. Muddy from the knees down means w/e he was doing cant be too deep, thus easier to find.
His pants being wet= the waterfall area?

LE can compare the mud from his pants/legs/shoes to the mud in the area and try to see if that is where he was.
I think it takes a while to do that testing though.

jnTexas
03-02-2010, 12:34 AM
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Chelsea%20King/Integrascan.jpg

OMG those pics his neck has really grown. Wonder if he was on steroids? His neck has that steroid thickness to it. JMO

cluciano63
03-02-2010, 12:34 AM
oh those photos of him gave me such chills...why don't we do a scarlet letter on these creeps as soon as they are first convicted...the law is far too forgiving of the worst possible crime man can commit...

Billylee
03-02-2010, 12:35 AM
That's actually mislabeled on the map (as are the RB community park, the rec center, the Joselyn Center, etc. )

That's totally and completely trail over there where it's labeled as the Ready Mix place, there's nothing there that's business, etc. whatsoever.

The TRUE address 1508 W. Mission Road Escondido CA 92029 per their website, http://www.superiorrm.com/contact.htm

And that is the place I was saying that's 12 miles north.

Here it is on google. West Mission is near 78, not that little surface trail area by the lake :) and that is all industrial type places right there along Mission. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1508%20W.%20Mission%20Road%20Escondido%20CA %2092029&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

Well that's weird, but thanks for the trail information. I'm thinking this guy drove her somewhere from the point he attacked her. But who knows if he was even that smart!

TravelingBug
03-02-2010, 12:35 AM
Sorry if this has already been said, this boards pages are growing rapidly. Muddy from the knees down means w/e he was doing cant be too deep, thus easier to find.
His pants being wet= the waterfall area?

In my opinion from what I've heard and see both, there is NO way he was at the waterfalls Saturday or Sunday. They were ONLY letting authorities back there or very specific (non volunteer) teams.

And if any person made an attempt to gain access if they found a way from a non-access point (meaning a yard or whatever) that would have shot red flags up all over and I would think have been taken into questioning on the spot.

I truly think the only way he could wet/muddy knee down would be if he was on the north side trying to conceal something. He could simply not have had access to the water over there on the south side the last 60 or so hours. That's been a very restricted area.

passionflower
03-02-2010, 12:36 AM
O/T how safe is your child is on NIGHTLINE............just saw JAG on there!!!!

passionflower
03-02-2010, 12:36 AM
yep the story on Gardner!!!!

Salem
03-02-2010, 12:37 AM
Please continue here: CA CA - Chelsea King (17) Rancho Bernardo (north San Diego County) #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thanks,

Salem

LLLindsayy
03-02-2010, 12:38 AM
OMG those pics his neck has really grown. Wonder if he was on steroids? His neck has that steroid thickness to it. JMO



Yes, it REALLY does. Creep.

Billylee
03-02-2010, 12:38 AM
oh those photos of him gave me such chills...why don't we do a scarlet letter on these creeps as soon as they are first convicted...the law is far too forgiving of the worst possible crime man can commit...

LOVE THAT IDEA! Isn't it weird that other than the first picture (I assume these are all mug shots?) he has that same quirky smile on his face, like "you'll never guess what I just did!" YUK!

cluciano63
03-02-2010, 12:41 AM
wonder is some defense attorney will dare try the 'Roid Rage BS...he does look like his head grew sort of Barry Bond-ish (no offense to BB fans...I am one too)

passionflower
03-02-2010, 12:42 AM
oh those photos of him gave me such chills...why don't we do a scarlet letter on these creeps as soon as they are first convicted...the law is far too forgiving of the worst possible crime man can commit...

and a tracking device for life!

Personally, there is no cure..................I am for the DP in this case if he did it!!!