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View Full Version : UT -Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City, 6 Dec 2009 - #7



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Tricia
03-07-2010, 04:32 PM
Hi Everyone,

First I would like to say how beautiful the candle light vigil was last night for Susan.

Susan has many people who love and miss her terribly.

I was fortunate enough to meet several of Susan's closest friends and Susan's in-laws. Josh's sister and mother. Very lovely people.

It was brought to my attention last night that the reason some of these people haven't been posting lately is because they don't know where to put what they have to say. The threads are a bit confusing and the last thing they want to do is to post something on the wrong thread.

They said they felt very comfortable posting on the "General Discussion" threads.

We certainly want their input and information about Susan's case so to make things a bit more comfortable I am starting up a general discussion thread.

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS A SUBSTITUTE FOR FORUM TOPICS.

Please don't make this thread grow day and night while the rest of the forum withers away. This is one reason why we eliminate the discussion threads when we open a forum because that is generally what happens.

This thread is for those who know Susan to post on and for us to respond to.

Also, if you feel you want to say something and you are truly not sure where to put it then you can put it here.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

Tricia

Frigga
03-07-2010, 04:54 PM
Tricia, Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I know many of us wish we had been able to attend Susan's vigil and offer our support. I hope her family and friends know how many lives Susan's story has touched and how much we have wished for a different outcome. I am grateful to know that she had many people who loved and adored her, and that Josh was just one small person compared to the love she felt from so many other people, that knew and loved her. Her children deserve to be with THOSE people. I pray every day for justice for Susan, because when that happens, there will be justice, comfort and safety for her sweet and beautiful boys as well! For now, they are in my thoughts and prayers daily!

RubyRed
03-07-2010, 05:29 PM
Why is the WVCPD so quiet? With it being the 3 month mark of Susan going missing, I have wondered why they aren't speaking out.

grayjay
03-07-2010, 05:41 PM
Why is the WVCPD so quiet? With it being the 3 month mark of Susan going missing, I have wondered why they aren't speaking out.

Me too, Ruby! I've been hoping they'd make some comments that would help in the case of a wider search. They sounded very confident. According to Fox13 news yesterday,

West Valley police detectives say nothing dramatic has changed but they continue working on leads and remain confident of a successful conclusion.

dovebar
03-07-2010, 06:20 PM
Is there any way to find out a whole listing of properties that Josh represented while a real estate agent?

IF this wasn't premeditated, it had to be someplace quick, in a snowstorm, to leave her. Since they apparently DIDN'T camp that much, another place might be property adjacent to some he represented.

IF the child really said "woods," than Josh claiming the area he did doesn't fit. Kids this age do know that woods means trees. Since Josh is from Washington and had a lot of time to be gone, I find it more likely that they drove north, the stretch of road between West Valley City and Idaho or Washington that they would have driven before. There are many places that would have been plowed but dark, many lower canyons, many woodsy forested areas.

Do we know if there have been toxicology tests on anything else in the home? Pitchers, pans, glasses, in case she had been being poisoned slowly and then one big final dose.

The big thing that bothers me is that the child's report does fit with abusive partners, who will often hurt an animal or a person in front of others as an "example", to coerce future behavior. Imagine what a child would think about the consequences of being "bad" - it gets you left in dark woods, alone.

sunnydee
03-07-2010, 07:50 PM
Some questions for anyone who knows Josh and Susan:

1. What college did Josh graduate from?
2. When did Susan begin working as a stockbroker?

Bartleby
03-08-2010, 01:03 AM
Is there any way to find out a whole listing of properties that Josh represented while a real estate agent?


He initially worked for HOMEnet Real Estate, you could ring them up and ask.

My understanding is he sold a handful of homes in his time, but no more. He seems to think the best way to eat a melon is to swallow it whole.

sunnydee
03-11-2010, 05:56 AM
So if the Susan Powell.org page is the place to go for updated exclusive photos, videos - why is there so little there?

sunnydee
03-11-2010, 07:12 AM
http://www.everydayhealth.com/family-health/signs-of-domestic-violence.aspx?xid=nl_EverydayHealthEmotionalHealth _20100310

Common sense about emotional abuse, which unfortunately too many people overlook and rationalize as the individual is simply stressed, depressed or worried.

Jules71
03-11-2010, 02:09 PM
What do you make of this?

snipped:
http://www.examiner.com/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m3d10-Josh-Powell-Offered-the-opportunity-to-tell-his-side-of-the-story?cid=examiner-email

In January Examiner.com offered to interview one of Josh's friends. The friend put unusual conditions on sharing his story and has, to date, not agreed to share his story. During a phone conversation he did say, "If I knew Josh was in town at 5 a.m. the day Susan went missing, don’t you think that story would be worth at least $1,000?”

PickieChickie
03-11-2010, 02:27 PM
March 10, 2010 - Examiner.com is not the first, and likely won't be the last, to extend an offer to Josh Powell to share his side of the story in the mysterious disappearance of his wife, Susan Cox Powell. The offer was also extended to Josh's father, Steven Powell aka Steven Chantrey.

Two simultaneous candlelight vigils were held in Susan Cox Powell's honor Saturday evening - one in West Valley City, Utah, Susan's home at the time of her disappearance, and the other in Josh and Susan's hometown of Puyallup, Wash.

Since Susan's disappearance Josh has received strong public criticism for the story he told police and media, and for his actions, and inactions, since Susan went missing.

Several hours before the vigils were scheduled to begin Josh was seen across the street from his father's house with his 3-year old son Braden. Josh then got up, rushed across the street and with his head down, escorted Braden into their back yard, then into the house.

Braden could be heard crying as they approached the house. It is believed Josh rushed inside when he spotted a TV camera crew on his front porch.

A short time later Examiner.com spoke with Josh and his father, Steven Powell, in front of their Country Hollow home. Both Josh and Steven were offered a chance to share their side of the story.

Steven denied the offer, stating he'd read the news and did not believe their side of the story would be told.

Before long Steven was raising his voice, threatening he'd called the police after spotting media in the neighborhood - a Q13Fox TV camera crew and Examiner.com. Evidently he did not realize we were invited guests.

Both of Josh's sons, 5-year old Charlie and 3-year old Braden, were in the front yard with Steven and Josh.

During the conversation Charlie stood next to Steven several feet from the car. A deep, sad look could be seen in Charlie's eyes and his facial expressions were in stark contrast to earlier photos of Charlie - a happy, well-adjusted looking kid.

An attempt was made to let Steven and Josh know their story would be told in a fair and truthful manner and that Examiner.com is willing to share with its reader's information Josh and/or Steven believe has either been overlooked or that they feel has unfairly put either of them in a negative light to the public.

Steven repeatedly refused our offer stating there would be no fair reporting. He became confrontational, raising his voice and coming closer to the car.

Josh, with Braden next to his side, spoke for the first time, urging his father to stop and go inside the house, which they ultimately did.

SOURCE: Isabelle Zehnder - Seattle Examiner
http://www.examiner.com/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m3d10-Josh-Powell-Offered-the-opportunity-to-tell-his-side-of-the-story?cid=examiner-email

Dr.Fessel
03-11-2010, 02:31 PM
What do you make of this?

snipped:
http://www.examiner.com/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m3d10-Josh-Powell-Offered-the-opportunity-to-tell-his-side-of-the-story?cid=examiner-email

In January Examiner.com offered to interview one of Josh's friends. The friend put unusual conditions on sharing his story and has, to date, not agreed to share his story. During a phone conversation he did say, "If I knew Josh was in town at 5 a.m. the day Susan went missing, don’t you think that story would be worth at least $1,000?”


Well I hope the Examiner turned that tip into the police back in January.

PickieChickie
03-11-2010, 02:34 PM
Well I hope the Examiner turned that tip into the police back in January.

I recall around that time Wayne Hamburg posting on the wall of the "susan powell part 2" Facebook group that the Seattle Examiner called him wanting an interview. The fact that I've not read an interview published by Isabelle containing quotes from him leads me to deduct this is who made that statement!

grayjay
03-11-2010, 02:50 PM
Well I hope the Examiner turned that tip into the police back in January.
Me too. I don't think this guy is figuring the $10,000 reward is easy pickings for him. I would love to read what the terms and conditions were that he wanted. He sounds like he could actually eventually need a lawyer himself. LOL.

Jules71
03-11-2010, 03:03 PM
snipped:
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m3d9-Susan-Cox-Powell-Timeline-of-days-surrounding-Susans-disappearance

2:30 p.m.: JoVonna arrives to the Powell home to help Susan untangle yarn
For the next hour-and-a-half to two hours, Susan and JoVonna work on untangling yard; boys play, Josh continues cooking brunch
4 or 4:30 p.m.: Josh served a late brunch; he served everyone individually rather than buffet-style
5 or 5:30 p.m.: Susan went to take a nap; JoVonna saw Josh take the boys out to the garage; Josh told her he was taking them sledding
Before JoVonna left, she told Josh she could bring the yarn back that evening
Josh declined her offer stating Susan wouldn't get a chance to work on it until her next days off
8 or 8:30 p.m.: JoVonna states neighbor said they saw Josh come home
11:45 p.m.: It was reported a car alarm went off for about 2 minutes at the Powell home; police were not called
Midnight: Josh claims Susan went to bed
12:30 a.m.: Josh claims he took the boys on an impromptu camping trip to the West Utah Desert during a snowstorm and subfreezing weather

So within an hour of Susan eating, she went to take a nap (was that normal or abnormal for her?). I believe he put something in her food. 3 hours later Josh returns from sledding with the boys. Did the boys see Susan then? When did they go to bed? I bet they did not see her and he put them to bed right away. I am assuming the two fans and wet spot were not there when JoVonna left the Powell home.

I believe Josh killed Susan between the time he returned from sledding (8-8:30 pm) and the time the car alarm went off (11:45 pm). I believe the car alarm went off when he was loading Susan’s body into the van. I believe he then got the boys into the van and drove somewhere and disposed of Susan’s body.

What is the layout of the home? Did Susan go to her bedroom to take a nap? Where in relation to her room was the wet spot on the floor? Did he kill her in her room or at the location of the wet spot? I believe Josh killed her by drugging, strangling, or suffocation. I think the wet spot was either vomit or bodily fluids, not blood.

How far could Josh drive and return that would take him from let’s say 12:30 am to 6:00 pm. 17.5 hours. To me the search area would be in any direction he could get to in 9 hours. But what about purchasing the torch? What time? And how far away?

This is frustrating to say the least. If this post should be somewhere else, please let me know.

grayjay
03-11-2010, 07:17 PM
What is the layout of the home? Did Susan go to her bedroom to take a nap?
How far could Josh drive and return that would take him from let’s say 12:30 am to 6:00 pm.

There was a post a while back, and I'd have a hard time finding it, where OK5 provided a layout of the home. The bedrooms are on the left, the living room and behind it the kitchen in the middle, and the garage on the right.

It was worded that Susan went to take a nap.

Josh may have returned to WVC in the morning according to rumors, so I've revised my ideas considerably and think he didn't go so far away.

dovebar
03-11-2010, 07:53 PM
Remember that there wouldn't just be driving time, there would be time to leave the body, although if there was snow, one would just need to find a quiet stretch of highway or a river.

Somewhere with woods. Somewhere he had passed before, somewhere plowed or passable at that time of night and weather. To me, this all argues for a remote stretch of highway north of Ogden, possibly north of the Utah line. It's still interstate but very remote and quiet at that time of night. They would likely have driven this stretch either on the move down or on visits north. It's only a couple of hours to the state line, and a couple hours back. There are also numerous canyons in between that would be quiet and remote yet passable - Huntsville canyon.

It's possible that they went further into the Oquirrh mountains to the west of West Valley City, but these areas would be less likely to have been plowed, and too much in the direction of where he claimed they camped. I don't believe for a minute that the police would have been told the general direction truthfully.

RubyRed
03-11-2010, 08:35 PM
There was a post a while back, and I'd have a hard time finding it, where OK5 provided a layout of the home. The bedrooms are on the left, the living room and behind it the kitchen in the middle, and the garage on the right.

It was worded that Susan went to take a nap.

Josh may have returned to WVC in the morning according to rumors, so I've revised my ideas considerably and think he didn't go so far away.

here it is

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - UT-Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City; thread #6

hollyblue
03-12-2010, 12:22 AM
http://www.everydayhealth.com/family-health/signs-of-domestic-violence.aspx?xid=nl_EverydayHealthEmotionalHealth _20100310

Common sense about emotional abuse, which unfortunately too many people overlook and rationalize as the individual is simply stressed, depressed or worried.

BBM
This doesn't have to come from just a partner. It could be other relatives, "friends", co-workers, bosses, etc. If someone has stepped over your boundary line, and has little respect.....it's emotional, verbal abuse. No doubt about it. Best way is to nip it in the bud. "That's not very nice." or "I really don't care for you saying that." Some it will do....others like Joshy Poo will enjoy it and keep on. Best then to just ignore them and stay away from their world. (or introduce them to Mr. Griswold!---JK!) I know, I had a relative that had a skull as thick as a brick. That person is no longer a part of my life.
Getting along with someone is not letting them step on your tail all the time.

Thank you for the link Sunnydee---nice informative website. People need to be educated what abuse truly is...and it's not just "joking around".

hollyblue
03-12-2010, 12:27 AM
Well I hope the Examiner turned that tip into the police back in January.

What a soul selling sucker this guy is. Hope LE did give him a call!

PickieChickie
03-12-2010, 12:29 AM
If this post should be somewhere else, please let me know.

If you have specific questions that can be answered by friends, neighbors and family of Susan Powell, I started a new thread called something to the effect of "Questions you want to ask Susan's family and friends".

hollyblue
03-12-2010, 12:30 AM
I recall around that time Wayne Hamburg posting on the wall of the "susan powell part 2" Facebook group that the Seattle Examiner called him wanting an interview. The fact that I've not read an interview published by Isabelle containing quotes from him leads me to deduct this is who made that statement!

I've noticed anytime there is an article about Josh, he is normally spewing his glib in the comment section of the
Trib.

PickieChickie
03-12-2010, 12:32 AM
What a soul selling sucker this guy is. Hope LE did give him a call!

The West Valley City Police did call Wayne Hamberg on February 1, 2010 and asked him to be down at police headquarters the following morning, February 2, 2010, at 08:30 AM!

I know this to be a fact because he posted this on the wall of the susan powell part 2 Facebook group and I saved a pdf file of the wall.

PickieChickie
03-12-2010, 12:34 AM
I've noticed anytime there is an article about Josh, he is normally spewing his glib in the comment section of the
Trib.

Get a Facebook account and join the group "susan powell part 2" if you want to see some spewing! He goes on and on for MILES!

hollyblue
03-12-2010, 12:35 AM
Remember that there wouldn't just be driving time, there would be time to leave the body, although if there was snow, one would just need to find a quiet stretch of highway or a river.

Somewhere with woods. Somewhere he had passed before, somewhere plowed or passable at that time of night and weather. To me, this all argues for a remote stretch of highway north of Ogden, possibly north of the Utah line. It's still interstate but very remote and quiet at that time of night. They would likely have driven this stretch either on the move down or on visits north. It's only a couple of hours to the state line, and a couple hours back. There are also numerous canyons in between that would be quiet and remote yet passable - Huntsville canyon.

It's possible that they went further into the Oquirrh mountains to the west of West Valley City, but these areas would be less likely to have been plowed, and too much in the direction of where he claimed they camped. I don't believe for a minute that the police would have been told the general direction truthfully.

This is something I speculated about in the beginning.
The Snake River is along that route. If the kids were asleep, he could easily have thrown her over on a bridge.

PickieChickie
03-12-2010, 12:36 AM
There was a post a while back, and I'd have a hard time finding it, where OK5 provided a layout of the home. The bedrooms are on the left, the living room and behind it the kitchen in the middle, and the garage on the right.

It was worded that Susan went to take a nap.

Josh may have returned to WVC in the morning according to rumors, so I've revised my ideas considerably and think he didn't go so far away.

If Wayne Hamberg is the person Isabelle spoke with, and Josh was indeed in West Valley City at 5:00 AM, perhaps he dropped by Wayne Hamberg's house! How else would he know Josh was in West Valley City at 5:00 AM?

PickieChickie
03-12-2010, 12:38 AM
What is the layout of the home?

I have a jpeg image of the layout of the home (without the furniture) if you want to send an e-mail to joshpowellbankruptcy@gmail.com. I'll throw in the bankruptcy papers too! Lol! Just label it layout.

sunnydee
03-12-2010, 12:43 AM
http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/cfapps/linx/calendar/GetCivilCase.cfm?cause_num=01-2-11918-0

I just saw this link among the comments from the SL Tribune. Seems as though Josh Powell was a defendant in an eviction case in 2001.

Breathe
03-12-2010, 01:18 AM
http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/cfapps/linx/calendar/GetCivilCase.cfm?cause_num=01-2-11918-0

I just saw this link among the comments from the SL Tribune. Seems as though Josh Powell was a defendant in an eviction case in 2001.

10/04/2001 DECLARATION OF JOSH POWELL TIMELINE Public
10/04/2001 DECLARATION OF DANA A LEWIS Public
10/04/2001 DECLARATION OF STEVEN C POWELL Public
10/04/2001 DECLARATION OF JENNIFER GRAVES Public
10/05/2001 DECLARATION OF TERRICA R POWELL Public

What does this mean? Did his father, mother and sister testify? Great sleuthing sunnydee!!

hollyblue
03-12-2010, 01:24 AM
http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/cfapps/linx/calendar/GetCivilCase.cfm?cause_num=01-2-11918-0

I just saw this link among the comments from the SL Tribune. Seems as though Josh Powell was a defendant in an eviction case in 2001.


This was only 5 months after he and Susan were married. Wonder if this has anything to do with their property management jobs. He might have been part of the maintenance crew too. Wonder what type of trouble he got himself into that time? Who is Dana A Lewis? Attorney?

Sunnydee, what article was this under? TIA

PickieChickie
03-12-2010, 01:50 AM
10/04/2001 DECLARATION OF JOSH POWELL TIMELINE Public
10/04/2001 DECLARATION OF DANA A LEWIS Public
10/04/2001 DECLARATION OF STEVEN C POWELL Public
10/04/2001 DECLARATION OF JENNIFER GRAVES Public
10/05/2001 DECLARATION OF TERRICA R POWELL Public

What does this mean? Did his father, mother and sister testify? Great sleuthing sunnydee!!

A declaration is a written statement filed with the court which the declarant must sign under the penalty of perjury under the laws of the state of (insert state) that the foregoing is true and correct.

What I am gathering from the filings is that Josh Powell was served with a 30 Day Notice To Vacate which he did not voluntarily comply with. Because of this, the landlord filed an Unlawful Detainer petition to evict Josh Powell with the court.

In order to attempt to prove why he should not be evicted, Josh obtained declarations from the people listed in an attempt to persuade the judge the plaintiff/landlord was not within his rights to evict Josh Powell, et all.

When an Unlawful Detainer petition is granted, a move out date is ordered by the court. If the defendant(s) have not vacated the premises by midnight on the particular date at which time the sheriff's department goes to the residence (to make sure it is vacant and posts the Sherrif's Notice on the door that anyone named in the Unlawful Detainer case will be arrested if they are caught on the property), the residence must be vacant or the occupants will be arrested on the spot and forfeit all their possessions remaining on the property!

Breathe
03-12-2010, 02:14 AM
A declaration is a written statement filed with the court which the declarant must sign under the penalty of perjury under the laws of the state of (insert state) that the foregoing is true and correct.

What I am gathering from the filings is that Josh Powell was served with a 30 Day Notice To Vacate which he did not voluntarily comply with. Because of this, the landlord filed an Unlawful Detainer petition to evict Josh Powell with the court.

In order to attempt to prove why he should not be evicted, Josh obtained declarations from the people listed in an attempt to persuade the judge the plaintiff/landlord was not within his rights to evict Josh Powell, et all.

When an Unlawful Detainer petition is granted, a move out date is ordered by the court. If the defendant(s) have not vacated the premises by midnight on the particular date at which time the sheriff's department goes to the residence (to make sure it is vacant and posts the Sherrif's Notice on the door that anyone named in the Unlawful Detainer case will be arrested if they are caught on the property), the residence must be vacant or the occupants will be arrested on the spot and forfeit all their possessions remaining on the property!

Thank you!! (Sometimes his backbone suprises me)

Resolution: 10/01/2001 Uncontested Resolution I'm having a hard time finding out the WA Court defination of uncontested resolution. Does this mean he moved anyway? A little surprised that Susan didn't testify but three of his family members did. (I assume Susan was the only one that lived in the apartment with him but who knows.) Thanks for your help!!!!

PickieChickie
03-12-2010, 02:18 AM
Thank you!! (Sometimes his backbone suprises me)

Resolution: 10/01/2001 Uncontested Resolution I'm having a hard time finding out the WA Court defination of uncontested resolution. Does this mean he moved anyway? A little surprised that Susan didn't testify but three of his family members did. (I assume Susan was the only one that lived in the apartment with him but who knows.) Thanks for your help!!!!

EDIT: I see the 10/01/2001: Uncontested Resolution at the very top. That is puzzling!
And he apparently tried to contest the eviction after the move out order which was denied. If any other resolution had been reached, the motions would have been granted and it would have been noted that the case Unlawful Detainer case was dismissed.

However, Josh was evicted:
10/11/2001 MOTION TO VACATE Public
10/12/2001 SHERIFF S RETURN ON WRIT Public 2214-2777
10/17/2001 MEMORANDUM IN OPPOSITION Public
10/17/2001 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE Public 2216-4101
10/17/2001 NOTICE OF ATTY CHANGE OF ADDRESS Public
10/18/2001 CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE Public 2217-1088
10/24/2001 MOTION AND AFFIDAVIT/DECLARATION Public
10/26/2001 ORDER DENYING MOTION/PETITION Public 2220-2237
10/26/2001 VERBATIM RPT TRANSMITTED IN CT FILE Public
10/26/2001 VERBATIM RPT TRANSMITTED IN CT FILE Public
10/26/2001 MOTION HEARING Public
12/30/2008 ARCHIVED RECORD

I don't understand what 10/26/2001 MOTION HEARING is all about. But, there were no further entries after that.

He filed a Motion For Reconsideration with the accompany declarations you listed asking the court to reconsider granting the plaintiff's/landlord's Unlawful Detainer petition which was denied. (I am sure the declarations contained statements as to why Josh should NOT be evicted.)

gwenabob
03-12-2010, 03:03 AM
I seem to remember reading that Josh and Susan lived with OMP for a little while after they married. Am I remembering that correctly? If so, perhaps it was after the eviction.

PickieChickie
03-12-2010, 04:09 AM
1 Uncontested Resolution [/B][/I] I'm having a hard time finding out the WA Court defination of uncontested resolution. Does this mean he moved anyway?

7.A.c UNCONTESTED RESOLUTION

Uncontested Resolution (UNDS) - Final resolution for a case that is not contested in superior court, and is not given a default judgment (e.g., a case in which the respondent did not answer to the claims and no order of default was handed down as the final resolution). Use for initial pre-placement reports filed without a pre-existing adoption file.

Consolidated Case (CONS) - Final resolution for a case being consolidated into another case.

There was a judgment issued.

sunnydee
03-12-2010, 08:46 AM
This was only 5 months after he and Susan were married. Wonder if this has anything to do with their property management jobs. He might have been part of the maintenance crew too. Wonder what type of trouble he got himself into that time? Who is Dana A Lewis? Attorney?

Sunnydee, what article was this under? TIA

This information wasn't in the text of an article. It was something that a poster had written on the message board for the story about the police being unable to confirm that Josh was at the strip bar.

sunnydee
03-12-2010, 09:01 AM
What do you make of this?

snipped:
http://www.examiner.com/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m3d10-Josh-Powell-Offered-the-opportunity-to-tell-his-side-of-the-story?cid=examiner-email

In January Examiner.com offered to interview one of Josh's friends. The friend put unusual conditions on sharing his story and has, to date, not agreed to share his story. During a phone conversation he did say, "If I knew Josh was in town at 5 a.m. the day Susan went missing, don’t you think that story would be worth at least $1,000?”

It's hard to imagine WH selling a story for $1000. I've read his comments in the past when he was bragging about the national news wanting to interview him. I feel pretty sure he would want a lot more than $1000.

I am curious about the use of the word "friend" and wonder if the person identified themselves as a friend or if the Examiner used the term themselves. Perhaps, the person with the knowledge of Josh being in WVC at 5 am could be someone from a store he went to?

grayjay
03-12-2010, 10:44 AM
A motion for reconsideration? Who in Josh's family is the legal adviser? It looks like he fought and got everyone involved and pretty much stretched his case of eviction as far as he could, exercising his rights. Since he didn't have rent money, it seems to me someone else had to be coaching him.

PickieChickie
03-12-2010, 11:03 AM
It's hard to imagine WH selling a story for $1000. I've read his comments in the past when he was bragging about the national news wanting to interview him. I feel pretty sure he would want a lot more than $1000.

I am curious about the use of the word "friend" and wonder if the person identified themselves as a friend or if the Examiner used the term themselves. Perhaps, the person with the knowledge of Josh being in WVC at 5 am could be someone from a store he went to?

The reason I chose him is because Isabelle has interviewed and published articles about Jovanna Owings, Debbie Caldwell, Kirsii Hellewell, Chuck Cox and about every other "major player" in this case EXCEPT for Wayne Hamberg and I simply cannot fathom her NOT trying to get an interview from Wayne, unless it was Tim Peterson but I doubt that because he so freely spoke with the Salt Lake Tribune and KSL.

Furthermore, Wayne Hamberg announced, on the wall of the Facebook group "susan powell 2" that the Seattle Examiner had contacted him wanting an interview yet an article was never published.

PickieChickie
03-12-2010, 11:09 AM
A motion for reconsideration? Who in Josh's family is the legal adviser? It looks like he fought and got everyone involved and pretty much stretched his case of eviction as far as he could, exercising his rights. Since he didn't have rent money, it seems to me someone else had to be coaching him.

Most likely Steven C. Powell. Check out how long he kept Josh's mother, his ex-wife, tied up in court: http://dw.courts.wa.gov/index.cfm?fa=home.casesummary&crt_itl_nu=S32&casenumber=92-3-02909-8&searchtype=sName&token=1EA5FFDE0EC5227A0CA3BA5FB91C8CAD&dt=0A01C356CC01DFD88FBBBDC67AC3BAE9

grayjay
03-12-2010, 01:59 PM
Most likely Steven C. Powell. Check out how long he kept Josh's mother, his ex-wife, tied up in court: http://dw.courts.wa.gov/index.cfm?fa=home.casesummary&crt_itl_nu=S32&casenumber=92-3-02909-8&searchtype=sName&token=1EA5FFDE0EC5227A0CA3BA5FB91C8CAD&dt=0A01C356CC01DFD88FBBBDC67AC3BAE9
For those who are short of patience in this case and wonder what's going on behind the scenes, this should explain a lot. This kind of guy would still be filing legal arguments five minutes before execution if the case were cut and dried and there were nothing to argue. They are saving the taxpayers a lot of extra court time, if they really nail it dead on the first time.

dovebar
03-12-2010, 04:13 PM
Have any of Josh Powell's former girlfriends come forward? It's hard to believe that Susan was the first to encounter his behavior.

I'm sure the police are doing a very thorough job of interviewing. But I wonder whether there is anyone who has discussed places Josh might have gone on prior trips to Utah, places he liked to go with his family before he met Susan, places he might have taken other women in Utah, Idaho, Washington, Oregon. Everyone has "favorite" spots and I wonder what his were.

PickieChickie
03-12-2010, 04:22 PM
Have any of Josh Powell's former girlfriends come forward? It's hard to believe that Susan was the first to encounter his behavior.

I'm sure the police are doing a very thorough job of interviewing. But I wonder whether there is anyone who has discussed places Josh might have gone on prior trips to Utah, places he liked to go with his family before he met Susan, places he might have taken other women in Utah, Idaho, Washington, Oregon. Everyone has "favorite" spots and I wonder what his were.

Yes, the police have been informed about the campground Josh and Susan went camping at near the state line. I believe that is where the searches have been conducted by the Tooele County Sheriff's department.

Believe me, all of Josh and Susan's friends, except the Powell clan, have been cooperating with police and telling them everything they know, at least one would have to assume so! There is an $11,000.00 reward! (That ain't much but it's still not a drop in the bucket!)

Jules71
03-12-2010, 04:30 PM
here it is

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - UT-Susan Powell, 28, West Valley City; thread #6 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4757643&postcount=1270)

Thanks for the floor plan. Does anyone know where the wet spot and fans were? And was it in route to the garage?

Is is possible to get from the basement to the garage without going outside?

grayjay
03-12-2010, 04:42 PM
There is an $11,000.00 reward! (That ain't much but it's still not a drop in the bucket!)

I'm just curious if it might be useful, to include somewhere in the sticky note section, something for those who would like to see the amount increased, to help direct them to the appropriate entity. It could be implemented for all missing person threads on the site, maybe just as a push button that says "REWARD." :twocents:

PickieChickie
03-12-2010, 05:00 PM
Thanks for the floor plan. Does anyone know where the wet spot and fans were? And was it in route to the garage?

Is is possible to get from the basement to the garage without going outside?

I would post this question in the "Questions I want Susan's Family and friends to answer".

Jules71
03-12-2010, 05:05 PM
I would post this question in the "Questions I want Susan's Family and friends to answer".

Thanks PC - just did.

grayjay
03-12-2010, 05:26 PM
Thanks for the floor plan. Does anyone know where the wet spot and fans were? And was it in route to the garage?

Is is possible to get from the basement to the garage without going outside?
Somewhere in the thread where the floor plan was posted, it was stated that the wet spot was in front of a sofa which was in front of the front window.

From what I saw in the floor plan, the basement opens upstairs facing the front entry. Someone would turn left after climbing to the top of the basement steps to go to the garage.

Jules71
03-12-2010, 08:49 PM
I just mapped WVC, UT to Steven P's house in Puyallup and takes between 14.5 - 18.5 hours to drive there. Here's a thought - did Josh drive 1/2 way and meet his Dad, who then took Susan's body to dispose of?

Were there any calls from Josh to his Dad that night or morning? Was his Dad at work the day of the 7th? I would imagine LE has the answers to these questions - I would hope so anyway. (sorry if this has already been discussed)

Did the kids see their Grandpa on the 7th?

hollyblue
03-13-2010, 04:46 AM
I just mapped WVC, UT to Steven P's house in Puyallup and takes between 14.5 - 18.5 hours to drive there. Here's a thought - did Josh drive 1/2 way and meet his Dad, who then took Susan's body to dispose of?

Were there any calls from Josh to his Dad that night or morning? Was his Dad at work the day of the 7th? I would imagine LE has the answers to these questions - I would hope so anyway. (sorry if this has already been discussed)

Did the kids see their Grandpa on the 7th?

Halfway would be approximately the border of Id & Or. If it's true that SP may have a brother (Major, in the Idaho State Police, Forensics) working in Meridian, Id., that would be VERY interesting.
I checked the time and mileage from WVC to the area where I-84 crosses over the Snake River and it's about 2.5 hours and 180 miles. Also Hell's Canyon National Recreational Park and vicinity is in eastern Oregon. Since the Powells lived in Spokane, likely, they would be very familiar with this area.

http://www.bing.com/maps/explore/#/vhzxoh9jh9fc8op3

PickieChickie
03-13-2010, 11:13 AM
Halfway would be approximately the border of Id & Or. If it's true that SP may have a brother (Major, in the Idaho State Police, Forensics) working in Meridian, Id., that would be VERY interesting.
I checked the time and mileage from WVC to the area where I-84 crosses over the Snake River and it's about 2.5 hours and 180 miles. Also Hell's Canyon National Recreational Park and vicinity is in eastern Oregon. Since the Powells lived in Spokane, likely, they would be very familiar with this area.

http://www.bing.com/maps/explore/#/vhzxoh9jh9fc8op3
Maybe he went to go see MAJOR RALPH POWELL on the day he rented the car. It was reported he drove 300 plus miles and that would be about 360 miles round trip! Here: http://www.isp.idaho.gov/forensic/index.html


http://www.isp.idaho.gov/forensic/pic_rpowell.jpg

AlexisFresca
03-13-2010, 12:08 PM
Not trying to hijack this thread topic, but saw the bankruptcy papers and have just a few questions.

Does anyone know why their furnishings are placed at such a low value?

Why is Susan Powell's name on the list of people Josh owed money to? (saw it on the last page of the documents). Or is that a list of the people who get a copy of the bankruptcy filing?

Also noticed that Countrywide is on the list of debtors, and they screwed over a lot of people who were buying with interest rate misreprsentations and other things.
I ask in that I wonder how much of their mortgage was a problem and related to the bankruptcy filing, is all.

On page 28, is their home listed twice due to a second mortgage?

Is page 24 blurry or is that my computer? Personal info that should not be released, is that why it is blurry? Like a social number and so on?

PickieChickie
03-13-2010, 12:49 PM
Not trying to hijack this thread topic, but saw the bankruptcy papers and have just a few questions.

Does anyone know why their furnishings are placed at such a low value?

Why is Susan Powell's name on the list of people Josh owed money to? (saw it on the last page of the documents). Or is that a list of the people who get a copy of the bankruptcy filing?

Also noticed that Countrywide is on the list of debtors, and they screwed over a lot of people who were buying with interest rate misreprsentations and other things.
I ask in that I wonder how much of their mortgage was a problem and related to the bankruptcy filing, is all.

On page 28, is their home listed twice due to a possible second mortgage?

Is page 24 blurry or is that my computer? Personal info that should not be released, is that why it is blurry? Like a social number and so on?

Does anyone know why their furnishings are placed at such a low value? Because Josh didn't want his creditors to realize the true value of his possessions due to the fact they could have filed documents with the court requesting a court order forcing him to sell various items and give the proceeds to them.

Why is Susan Powell's name on the list of people Josh owed money to? (saw it on the last page of the documents). Or is that a list of the people who get a copy of the bankruptcy filing? The last page is a list of the people/businesses who were officially served with a notice that Josh Powell's Bankruptcy petition had been granted by the court. The reason there is no address for Susan Powell is because she didn't need to be mailed the documents as she was living with Josh Powell at the time.

I ask in that I wonder how much of their mortgage was a problem and related to the bankruptcy filing, is all. With a payment of approximately $1,200.00 per month, clearly the Powells had to manage their finances properly to come up with that amount every month on top of their van payment, auto insurance, groceries, fuel, utilities, etc.

On page 28, is their home listed twice due to a possible second mortgage? It appears this is the case.

Is page 24 blurry or is that my computer? Personal info that should not be released, is that why it is blurry? Like a social number and so on? Page 24 is not blurry on my document and there is nothing of importance on that page at all. Did you obtain the document from JoshPowellBankruptcy@gmail.com? If not, send me an e-mail and I'll send you the clear copy.

Jules71
03-13-2010, 01:56 PM
Maybe he went to go see MAJOR RALPH POWELL on the day he rented the car. It was reported he drove 300 plus miles and that would be about 360 miles round trip! Here: http://www.isp.idaho.gov/forensic/index.html


http://www.isp.idaho.gov/forensic/pic_rpowell.jpg

I also wondered if he drove the rental car to the place he claimed to have been camping, in order to place evidence to support his claim of being there. What kind of car did he rent? Was it something that would be able to drive those snowy roads better than his van?

Bartleby
03-13-2010, 02:02 PM
I also wondered if he drove the rental car to the place he claimed to have been camping, in order to place evidence to support his claim of being there. What kind of car did he rent? Was it something that would be able to drive those snowy roads better than his van?

Your questions have been discussed in great detail about ten weeks ago, please go back and read all the previous threads to bring yourself up to date.

The car he hired is visible in the video interview when a reporter caught him off guard as he returned from an outing. This was the one time he spoke semi-candidly, and it was very obvious he was holding back a lot of information, and possibly lying about everything else.

PickieChickie
03-13-2010, 02:03 PM
I also wondered if he drove the rental car to the place he claimed to have been camping, in order to place evidence to support his claim of being there. What kind of car did he rent? Was it something that would be able to drive those snowy roads better than his van?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCXDpQEfZm8
It is believed, since this interview took place during the time Josh had the rental car, that the car Josh got out of is the rental car. And, in my opinion, the answer would be no.

AlexisFresca
03-13-2010, 02:20 PM
Does anyone know why their furnishings are placed at such a low value? Because Josh didn't want his creditors to realize the true value of his possessions due to the fact they could have filed documents with the court requesting a court order forcing him to sell various items and give the proceeds to them.

Why is Susan Powell's name on the list of people Josh owed money to? (saw it on the last page of the documents). Or is that a list of the people who get a copy of the bankruptcy filing? The last page is a list of the people/businesses who were officially served with a notice that Josh Powell's Bankruptcy petition had been granted by the court. The reason there is no address for Susan Powell is because she didn't need to be mailed the documents as she was living with Josh Powell at the time.

I ask in that I wonder how much of their mortgage was a problem and related to the bankruptcy filing, is all. With a payment of approximately $1,200.00 per month, clearly the Powells had to manage their finances properly to come up with that amount every month on top of their van payment, auto insurance, groceries, fuel, utilities, etc.

On page 28, is their home listed twice due to a possible second mortgage? It appears this is the case.

Is page 24 blurry or is that my computer? Personal info that should not be released, is that why it is blurry? Like a social number and so on? Page 24 is not blurry on my document and there is nothing of importance on that page at all. Did you obtain the document from JoshPowellBankruptcy@gmail.com? If not, send me an e-mail and I'll send you the clear copy.



TY Pickie. :) Yes, I did obtain the document via the email addie posted.(the extras were funny, btw). But if theres nothing of importance on that page, I won't worry about it.

The SP & Terrica divorce hearing dockets (for lack of a better wording on my part) were interesting as well. I had wondered what the reasons were for the readjustment of child support? The reasons could be many, like change of income, a child reaching age 18 and not needing to provide child support for that child no longer, and so on.

OH - the big one on that. I noticed early on a request for a restraining order, but it did not specify if the restraining order was filed against Terrica or Steven. Its easy to assume it was him due to what we've learned about him. But in all fairness, we have heard nothing of or from her and really don't know her, so we don't know if it could have been filed against her.

Even in marriages where one spouse is the main problem, there are still two sides and the other parent is usually guilty as well, even if on a lesser scale (like if they instigate, manipulate or so on - possibly as a means of coping with a crappy situation or their marriage as a whole).

Jules71
03-13-2010, 02:26 PM
Your questions have been discussed in great detail about ten weeks ago, please go back and read all the previous threads to bring yourself up to date.

The car he hired is visible in the video interview when a reporter caught him off guard as he returned from an outing. This was the one time he spoke semi-candidly, and it was very obvious he was holding back a lot of information, and possibly lying about everything else.

Thanks. I appreciate your suggestion to go back and read all the threads. I have been reading as much as possible while still trying to contribute to the discussion. I realize it can be a little annoying when someone comes along who hasn't been on the thread since the beginning (I know this firsthand from the Lindsey Baum and Elizabeth Olten threads) - however, you just never know if discussing something for the 100th time might bring new light, new questions, or new theories to the discussion.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.

grayjay
03-13-2010, 02:37 PM
I respect Terrica and her situation, and think it's quite reasonable that she would avoid the spotlight. This stuff about both people being guilty isn't always the case, but the dirt certainly rubs off on good people and tends to be hard to get completely rid of. I don't doubt for a second that a hard working woman who got sick of the abuse can get dragged through the courts over and over. The facts that I have to defend her decency are
1) She was instrumental in reporting Susan missing in the first place, and
2) The daughter that is closest to her and most influenced by her is cooperating fully in the investigation even when the POI is her own brother.

PickieChickie
03-13-2010, 02:41 PM
TY Pickie. :) Yes, I did obtain the document via the email addie posted.(the extras were funny, btw). But if theres nothing of importance on that page, I won't worry about it.

The SP & Terrica divorce hearing dockets (for lack of a better wording on my part) were interesting as well. I had wondered what the reasons were for the readjustment of child support? The reasons could be many, like change of income, a child reaching age 18 and not needing to provide child support for that child no longer, and so on.

OH - the big one on that. I noticed early on a request for a restraining order, but it did not specify if the restraining order was filed against Terrica or Steven. Its easy to assume it was him due to what we've learned about him. But in all fairness, we have heard nothing of or from her and really don't know her, so we don't know if it could have been filed against her.

Even in marriages where one spouse is the main problem, there are still two sides and the other parent is usually guilty as well, even if on a lesser scale (like if they instigate, manipulate or so on - possibly as a means of coping with a crappy situation or their marriage as a whole).

Because Steve C Powell was the respondant, Terrica Powell, Josh's mother, is the one who filed for a dissolution of the marriage.

Because all of the following documents were filed on the same day, Terrica Powell is the party who filed for the restraining order:

Superior Court Case Summary
Court: Spokane Superior
Case Number: 92-3-02909-8
Sub Docket Date Docket Code Docket Description Misc Info
1 10-27-1992 SMPTDS Summons & Pet For Dissolution
2 10-27-1992 FNST Financial Statement
3 10-27-1992 DCLR Declaration Re Parent Plan--5 Children
4 10-27-1992 PPP Proposed Parenting Plan
5 10-27-1992 AFPT Affidavit Of Petitioner Re Show Cause
6 10-27-1992 RSTOSC Restraining Ord & Ord To Show Cause

Get your copy of the Terrica Powell vs. Steve C. Powell divorce docket (a detailed list of every document filed, etc.) here: joshpowellbankruptcy@gmail.com

AlexisFresca
03-13-2010, 02:56 PM
Because Steve C Powell was the respondant, Terrica Powell, Josh's mother, is the one who filed for a dissolution of the marriage.

Because all of the following documents were filed on the same day, Terrica Powell is the party who filed for the restraining order:

Superior Court Case Summary
Court: Spokane Superior
Case Number: 92-3-02909-8
Sub Docket Date Docket Code Docket Description Misc Info
1 10-27-1992 SMPTDS Summons & Pet For Dissolution
2 10-27-1992 FNST Financial Statement
3 10-27-1992 DCLR Declaration Re Parent Plan--5 Children
4 10-27-1992 PPP Proposed Parenting Plan
5 10-27-1992 AFPT Affidavit Of Petitioner Re Show Cause
6 10-27-1992 RSTOSC Restraining Ord & Ord To Show Cause

Get your copy of the Terrica Powell vs. Steve C. Powell divorce docket (a detailed list of every document filed, etc.) here: joshpowellbankruptcy@gmail.com


Thanks again! This documentation I've read is new to me so I'm still learning to interpret it all. I'm just not seeing were it was she who filed (not saying I don't believe you) and like I said, learning how to read and understand. I so wish I could have completed my paralegal studies. :(

RubyRed
03-13-2010, 03:15 PM
Thanks. I appreciate your suggestion to go back and read all the threads. I have been reading as much as possible while still trying to contribute to the discussion. I realize it can be a little annoying when someone comes along who hasn't been on the thread since the beginning (I know this firsthand from the Lindsey Baum and Elizabeth Olten threads) - however, you just never know if discussing something for the 100th time might bring new light, new questions, or new theories to the discussion.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.

That is true. It never hurts to go over info. Something new might just come to light , when it is talked about again.

Jules71
03-13-2010, 03:16 PM
Thanks again! This documentation I've read is new to me so I'm still learning to interpret it all. I'm just not seeing were it was she who filed (not saying I don't believe you) and like I said, learning how to read and understand. I so wish I could have completed my paralegal studies. :(

It shows here she is the petitioner and he is the respondent:

PickieChickie
03-13-2010, 03:19 PM
Thanks again! This documentation I've read is new to me so I'm still learning to interpret it all. I'm just not seeing were it was she who filed (not saying I don't believe you) and like I said, learning how to read and understand. I so wish I could have completed my paralegal studies. :(

Click here: http://dw.courts.wa.gov/
Click on "Find a person"
Type: Steven Powell (do not put in the initial C)
Scroll down to until you find: Powell, Steven C, Respondent *Currently number 98 on the list

Dr.Fessel
03-13-2010, 03:37 PM
Is the snow gone yet in the area he was supposed to be camping in?

gwenabob
03-13-2010, 03:44 PM
Because Steve C Powell was the respondant, Terrica Powell, Josh's mother, is the one who filed for a dissolution of the marriage.

Because all of the following documents were filed on the same day, Terrica Powell is the party who filed for the restraining order:

Superior Court Case Summary
Court: Spokane Superior
Case Number: 92-3-02909-8
Sub Docket Date Docket Code Docket Description Misc Info
1 10-27-1992 SMPTDS Summons & Pet For Dissolution
2 10-27-1992 FNST Financial Statement
3 10-27-1992 DCLR Declaration Re Parent Plan--5 Children
4 10-27-1992 PPP Proposed Parenting Plan
5 10-27-1992 AFPT Affidavit Of Petitioner Re Show Cause
6 10-27-1992 RSTOSC Restraining Ord & Ord To Show Cause

Get your copy of the Terrica Powell vs. Steve C. Powell divorce docket (a detailed list of every document filed, etc.) here: joshpowellbankruptcy@gmail.com

I just want to make clear something about the restraining order. We usually think of them with regards to physical abuse, but they can be used for other purposes as well.

It is common, and maybe even usual, for the petitioner in a divorce to file a restraining order at the beginning. It asks the court to order the couples from refraining to incur new joint debts (such as running up a credit card with the idea both will pay half) selling or spoiling assets (such as purposely destroying a car or house or selling off items that belong to the absent party), and so on. It can also include language that prevents the other partner from coming onto the property for a set period of time. It DOES NOT NECESSARILY mean anybody was being physically abused.

Although, in this case, I wouldn't be surprised. But that sort of restraining order usually comes BEFORE a petition for divorce is filed, in a separate court under separate circumstances. Wouldn't be surprised to hear there were other restraining orders filed for physical abuse over the years--if she had the courage.

gwenabob
03-13-2010, 03:47 PM
I also wondered if he drove the rental car to the place he claimed to have been camping, in order to place evidence to support his claim of being there. What kind of car did he rent? Was it something that would be able to drive those snowy roads better than his van?

I think it is interesting that Officer Powell has also recently retired. I do not remember where I saw it, but someone had found a webpage showing him in a posed photo with a couple other men and it said he was retiring from the police force.

I think it was in Jan or Feb. Interesting timing.

PickieChickie
03-13-2010, 03:53 PM
I think it is interesting that Officer Powell has also recently retired. I do not remember where I saw it, but someone had found a webpage showing him in a posed photo with a couple other men and it said he was retiring from the police force.

I think it was in Jan or Feb. Interesting timing.

Fall 2008 Department of Public Policy and Administration, Boise State University

Ralph Powell (2000) is Professor of Criminology at the University of Phoenix, Idaho Campus. He continues as Operations Commander over the Forensic Labs for the Idaho State Police. http://ppa.boisestate.edu/publications/_PAreport/v-alumni.html

grayjay
03-13-2010, 05:57 PM
Fall 2008 Department of Public Policy and Administration, Boise State University

Ralph Powell (2000) is Professor of Criminology at the University of Phoenix, Idaho Campus. He continues as Operations Commander over the Forensic Labs for the Idaho State Police. http://ppa.boisestate.edu/publications/_PAreport/v-alumni.html
If Unca Ralph instilled a lifelong curiosity in Joshy as a young boy, the kid sure had a strange way of showing it. I would bet a professional doesn't share as much of what he knows as a kid thinks, either. I totally think the odds are against POI and he will get caught.

dovebar
03-13-2010, 06:52 PM
Fall 2008 Department of Public Policy and Administration, Boise State University

Ralph Powell (2000) is Professor of Criminology at the University of Phoenix, Idaho Campus. He continues as Operations Commander over the Forensic Labs for the Idaho State Police. http://ppa.boisestate.edu/publications/_PAreport/v-alumni.html

Josh has a close relative who is commander of the evidence labs in the state that borders Utah? And in terms of how long Josh could have been gone, that state is within driving range of where he and Susan lived.

sunnydee
03-13-2010, 07:16 PM
Has anyone who knows confirmed yet if Ralph Powell is Josh's uncle (or related in any way)? Or is this still speculation?

PickieChickie
03-13-2010, 07:50 PM
Josh has a close relative who is commander of the evidence labs in the state that borders Utah? And in terms of how long Josh could have been gone, that state is within driving range of where he and Susan lived.

We do NOT know if Commander Ralph Powell is related to Steve Powell. However, they look an awful lot alike!


http://stevechantrey.com/Images/SteveSeattleSkyline.jpg


Josh Powell's father, Steve C. Powell, aka Steve Chantrey

http://stevechantrey.com


http://www.isp.idaho.gov/forensic/pic_rpowell.jpg

Major Ralph Powell: Forensic Services Commander
http://www.isp.idaho.gov/forensic/index.html

seekingsusan
03-13-2010, 08:46 PM
Interesting, I just listened to the notorious 6 minute interview again and noticed something. At around 1:40 Josh says that he found out "they were looking for Susan" when he and the boys "got home." He then quickly corrects himself to say he actually found out "on the way home." It's very subtle, but to me it almost supports the strip club stuff. His neighbors claim he couldn't have been at a strip club when they called because he was "on his way home." But in the video, Josh slips and says he already was home when he found out Susan was missing! By "home" he probably just meant "home from camping" or back in the Salt Lake Valley. Does anyone else hear his slip up?

ETA: To whomever asked about the snow melting - here in Utah, it's been snowing all day. Spring can't come soon enough!

sunnydee
03-13-2010, 09:41 PM
Interesting, I just listened to the notorious 6 minute interview again and noticed something. At around 1:40 Josh says that he found out "they were looking for Susan" when he and the boys "got home." He then quickly corrects himself to say he actually found out "on the way home." It's very subtle, but to me it almost supports the strip club stuff. His neighbors claim he couldn't have been at a strip club when they called because he was "on his way home." But in the video, Josh slips and says he already was home when he found out Susan was missing! By "home" he probably just meant "home from camping" or back in the Salt Lake Valley. Does anyone else hear his slip up?

ETA: To whomever asked about the snow melting - here in Utah, it's been snowing all day. Spring can't come soon enough!

I don't think this supports his having been at the strip club.

1. Strip club witnesses do disagree, some think it was Josh, some don't think it was Josh.

2. Strip club witnesses said that they confiscated his cell phone for awhile because he was trying to take photos, which they do not permit. If they had his phone, how would he be speaking with Jovanna and Jennifer when they called him?

3. Strip club witnesses don't mentioned rude customer speaking on his cell phone at all while he was in their club. They described other actions, but no one mentioned the rude guy speaking on his cell phone.

4. Jovanna and Jennifer both called and spoke with Josh during the time, the rude customer was at the strip bar. Neither of them heard any back ground noise. (Strip clubs are VERY LOUD), he would not be able to control the background noise while speaking with either of them.

5. The police say they were at his house when he arrived, and he did not smell of alcohol when they interviewed him.

PickieChickie
03-13-2010, 09:51 PM
I don't think this supports his having been at the strip club.

1. Strip club witnesses do disagree, some think it was Josh, some don't think it was Josh.

2. Strip club witnesses said that they confiscated his cell phone for awhile because he was trying to take photos, which they do not permit. If they had his phone, how would he be speaking with Jovanna and Jennifer when they called him?

3. Strip club witnesses don't mentioned rude customer speaking on his cell phone at all while he was in their club. They described other actions, but no one mentioned the rude guy speaking on his cell phone.

4. Jovanna and Jennifer both called and spoke with Josh during the time, the rude customer was at the strip bar. Neither of them heard any back ground noise. (Strip clubs are VERY LOUD), he would not be able to control the background noise while speaking with either of them.

5. The police say they were at his house when he arrived, and he did not smell of alcohol when they interviewed him.

If Josh had the boys with him, he would have been going outside to check on them, one would think. He could have answered the phone during that time.

People were constantly trying to call Josh all day. Yet, he only spoke to two people.

We don't know when the cell phone was taken. It could have been just before he was ready to leave.

If Josh only stayed 1 1/2 hours and arrived at 2:00, he would have left at 3:30.

If Josh arrived home 2 hours after he was told Susan was missing, that call could have been answered as he was leaving the bar at approximately 3:30.

Josh didn't arrive home until between 5:00 and 6:00 PM.

If Josh arrived at 2:00 and stayed until 2:30, that would have given him three hours to "sober up" if he arrived home at 5:30.

Josh may have had gum or breath mints with him to disguise the odor of alcohol on his breath.

What time exactly did Josh speak to these two women?

diphi
03-13-2010, 09:59 PM
If Josh had the boys with him, he would have been going outside to check on them, one would think. He could have answered the phone during that time.

People were constantly trying to call Josh all day. Yet, he only spoke to two people.

We don't know when the cell phone was taken. It could have been just before he was ready to leave.

If Josh only stayed 1 1/2 hours and arrived at 2:00, he would have left at 3:30.

If Josh arrived home 2 hours after he was told Susan was missing, that call could have been answered as he was leaving the bar at approximately 3:30.

Josh didn't arrive home until between 5:00 and 6:00 PM.

If Josh arrived at 2:00 and stayed until 2:30, that would have given him three hours to "sober up" if he arrived home at 5:30.

Josh may have had gum or breath mints with him to disguise the odor of alcohol on his breath.

What time exactly did Josh speak to these two women?

Yeah...I'm still having trouble with the strip bar idea. Seems like if he was going outside to check on the kids that would be very noticeable to others in the bar, yet no one mentioned that, did they?

I really don't think gum or mints would hide the smell, but then again my nose is pretty sensitive. I know someone whose nose doesn't seem to work as well as mine when it comes to smelling, though. I'm just saying mints wouldn't work for me...

sunnydee
03-13-2010, 10:14 PM
http://www.examiner.com/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m3d9-Strip-club-owner-says-Josh-Powell-came-into-his-bar-Dec-14-a-week-after-Susan-Powell-went-missing

"Finally, at 4:48 p.m. Jennifer Graves, Josh's sister, received a call from Josh. When she realized Susan was not with Josh, she informed him Susan was missing. While Josh said he was in town it took him nearly an hour to get home." ....

"Witnesses claim they saw Josh at the bar from about 2:30 p.m. to approximately 5 p.m. that afternoon."


.................................................. .............statements are from the above article.

It has been stated in several different articles that Jovanna had called and spoken with Josh. The times hasn't been consistent, I've seen it stated it was 3pm and I've seen it stated at 4 pm.

Whether Jovanna called at 3 or 4 pm - either time would place Josh inside the bar (if indeed he was the guy). Jennifer's call would also have been during the time some witnesses claim that Josh was in the bar.

sunnydee
03-13-2010, 10:22 PM
Yeah...I'm still having trouble with the strip bar idea. Seems like if he was going outside to check on the kids that would be very noticeable to others in the bar, yet no one mentioned that, did they?

I really don't think gum or mints would hide the smell, but then again my nose is pretty sensitive. I know someone whose nose doesn't seem to work as well as mine when it comes to smelling, though. I'm just saying mints wouldn't work for me...

................................................I think it would definitely be noticeable to others in the bar if he kept stepping in and out, since they said everyone applauded when he left.

RayO
03-13-2010, 10:28 PM
Is the snow gone yet in the area he was supposed to be camping in?

http://espcgis.nesdis.noaa.gov/website/ssdsnow/viewer.htm

You can zoom in. There are no county boundaries, but the area is south-southwest of the Great Salt Lake. Seems to be clear of snow today, March 13.

Temperatures in SLC are suppose to reach 60 by mid-week.

grayjay
03-13-2010, 10:35 PM
http://www.examiner.com/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m3d9-Strip-club-owner-says-Josh-Powell-came-into-his-bar-Dec-14-a-week-after-Susan-Powell-went-missing

"Finally, at 4:48 p.m. Jennifer Graves, Josh's sister, received a call from Josh. When she realized Susan was not with Josh, she informed him Susan was missing. While Josh said he was in town it took him nearly an hour to get home." ....

"Witnesses claim they saw Josh at the bar from about 2:30 p.m. to approximately 5 p.m. that afternoon."


.................................................. .............statements are from the above article.

It has been stated in several different articles that Jovanna had called and spoken with Josh. The times hasn't been consistent, I've seen it stated it was 3pm and I've seen it stated at 4 pm.

Whether Jovanna called at 3 or 4 pm - either time would place Josh inside the bar (if indeed he was the guy). Jennifer's call would also have been during the time some witnesses claim that Josh was in the bar.
:waitasec:
There is that rumor about him being in town in the morning. Is there any chance he has a friend who he is so comfortable being with, that he feels like he's at home there, and thus the slip?

Also, if they took his phone because he was trying to take photos, wouldn't it be likely it'd be ringing while they had it, if it was him?

PickieChickie
03-13-2010, 10:49 PM
Yeah...I'm still having trouble with the strip bar idea. Seems like if he was going outside to check on the kids that would be very noticeable to others in the bar, yet no one mentioned that, did they?

I really don't think gum or mints would hide the smell, but then again my nose is pretty sensitive. I know someone whose nose doesn't seem to work as well as mine when it comes to smelling, though. I'm just saying mints wouldn't work for me...

Nobody asked these people if Josh went outside. Altoids curiously strong peppermint mints work! If it was Josh at that bar, I believe with every fiber of my being he would not have gone home without using Binaca or some strong breath freshener to mask his alcohol breath.

dovebar
03-14-2010, 12:20 AM
It also depends on what he was drinking. Many closet drinkers stick to vodka.

PickieChickie
03-14-2010, 12:23 AM
It also depends on what he was drinking. Many closet drinkers stick to vodka.

Precisely. I used to go down to the little country store every morning to keep my friend company while he opened up the store. I could NOT believe how many people bought a 1/2 pint of vodka every morning! It was astounding! And, if you watch The Blue Cap interview, Josh acts like he's been drinking! Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's plastered. It just seems like his speech is very delayed, which could be an indication he's had a drink or is medicated. Also notice a 03:40 when he says, "I don't know where she's at" he gets uncomfortable and shifts his weight from one foot to the other and back. Also note he calls Susan "she" and never "Susan" or "my wife".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCXDpQEfZm8

Dr.Fessel
03-14-2010, 12:34 AM
http://espcgis.nesdis.noaa.gov/website/ssdsnow/viewer.htm

You can zoom in. There are no county boundaries, but the area is south-southwest of the Great Salt Lake. Seems to be clear of snow today, March 13.

Temperatures in SLC are suppose to reach 60 by mid-week.

Thank you RayO, I wonder if searches will start soon.

sunnydee
03-14-2010, 12:47 AM
It also depends on what he was drinking. Many closet drinkers stick to vodka.

If you happen to believe the "witnesses" at the bar (which I have my doubts on the credibility of their memory) - then you would trust their memory that he drank 2 beers and a shot during the 2 1/2 hours he was there being totally obnoxious before he left and everyone was so happy that they applauded.

If you don't trust their memory of how long he was there, or what he was drinking - then you ought to have some doubt as to their ability to positively identify Josh as well. There were other people who were at the bar at the same time, who do not believe the person was Josh. The fact that the owner, who is one of the people who believes it was Josh, didn't have the intellectual curiosity to review his own security tape, or to hold on to it once he realize that a customer had called the police seems a bit odd. He also never checked the driver license scanner to confirm that they had scanned Josh's driver's license when he came in.

PickieChickie
03-14-2010, 12:50 AM
If you happen to believe the "witnesses" at the bar (which I have my doubts on the credibility of their memory) - then you would trust their memory that he drank 2 beers and a shot during the 2 1/2 hours he was there being totally obnoxious before he left and everyone was so happy that they applauded.

Josh Powell has been reported to be an obnoxious person who never stops talking and who nobody likes so it wouldn't surprise me at all that people applauded when he left, even if he hadn't had one drink! Lol! Can you imagine an obnoxious, self righteous know-it-all with some alcohol in him?

sunnydee
03-14-2010, 01:01 AM
Josh Powell has been reported to be an obnoxious person who never stops talking and who nobody likes so it wouldn't surprise me at all that people applauded when he left, even if he hadn't had one drink! Lol! Can you imagine an obnoxious, self righteous know-it-all with some alcohol in him?

There are more than just one obnoxious person in Utah though. We have had a lot of high profile criminals with extremely odd personalities.

Dr.Fessel
03-14-2010, 01:02 AM
There are more than just one obnoxious person in Utah though. We have had a lot of high profile criminals with extremely odd personalities.

Sunny, any ideas why no big searches yet?

sunnydee
03-14-2010, 01:14 AM
Sunny, any ideas why no big searches yet?

Just things that I've read on various message boards is that there have been searches - but it's not the kind of places where they would have your average citizens looking. Places like mines. I'm aware of some volunteer searches going on and they are coordinating with the police.

I can't exactly say why I feel the way that I feel, but I do get a sense that the police have an idea of where she might be. I don't think he will get away with it.

(Changing the subject here) Several years ago, a boy scout wandered off while on a camping trip in the mountains. He actually was with his father fishing, when he left to walk back to the campsite less than 1/2 mile away. He never made it back to the campsite. (Very odd case) - the boy scouts immediately started searching for him, and then they brought in professionals within a fairly short period of time with infrared equipment (less than a couple of hours). Then they had lots and lots of volunteers searching. They had the exact area, and started looking so quickly once he was known to be gone - and his body has never been found.

Unfortunately, we do have some terrain that is difficult to really search.

hollyblue
03-14-2010, 01:21 AM
http://www.examiner.com/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m3d9-Strip-club-owner-says-Josh-Powell-came-into-his-bar-Dec-14-a-week-after-Susan-Powell-went-missing

"Finally, at 4:48 p.m. Jennifer Graves, Josh's sister, received a call from Josh. When she realized Susan was not with Josh, she informed him Susan was missing. While Josh said he was in town it took him nearly an hour to get home." ....

"Witnesses claim they saw Josh at the bar from about 2:30 p.m. to approximately 5 p.m. that afternoon."


.................................................. .............statements are from the above article.

It has been stated in several different articles that Jovanna had called and spoken with Josh. The times hasn't been consistent, I've seen it stated it was 3pm and I've seen it stated at 4 pm.

Whether Jovanna called at 3 or 4 pm - either time would place Josh inside the bar (if indeed he was the guy). Jennifer's call would also have been during the time some witnesses claim that Josh was in the bar.

I went back and forth with myself about the strip bar, but I now think it was not Josh. 1. the cell phone calls, and 2. I can't imagine Josh letting anyone take something of his. (the cell phone)

hollyblue
03-14-2010, 01:29 AM
Just things that I've read on various message boards is that there have been searches - but it's not the kind of places where they would have your average citizens looking. Places like mines. I'm aware of some volunteer searches going on and they are coordinating with the police.

I can't exactly say why I feel the way that I feel, but I do get a sense that the police have an idea of where she might be. I don't think he will get away with it.

(Changing the subject here) Several years ago, a boy scout wandered off while on a camping trip in the mountains. He actually was with his father fishing, when he left to walk back to the campsite less than 1/2 mile away. He never made it back to the campsite. (Very odd case) - the boy scouts immediately started searching for him, and then they brought in professionals within a fairly short period of time with infrared equipment (less than a couple of hours). Then they had lots and lots of volunteers searching. They had the exact area, and started looking so quickly once he was known to be gone - and his body has never been found.

Unfortunately, we do have some terrain that is difficult to really search.

BBM I remember that incident---- and think someone nabbed him.

sunnydee
03-14-2010, 02:33 AM
Dr. Fessel,

Locally a lot of people are feeling discouraged about the prospect of Susan’s body being found, or an arrest being made. Some people posting on message boards claim to have some insider contact (I definitely don’t) are saying the police have no good evidence.

I question this. Perhaps it is true, but the reason I question it is why did the judge “sealed” the search warrants? The local papers sued for the information, and the judge permitted their attorney to take a peek, but prevented the attorney from sharing the information with anyone else. What is with the privacy, if they had NOTHING?

I have faith in the police because this case is the reason men and women join the police force. They do not punch a time clock, and are constantly thinking the case on the job, off the job and in their sleep. They do not want the bad guy to get away.

Even after Mark Hacking confessed to murdering his wife, the policemen and women volunteered their time (city couldn’t afford to pay over time) to search the dump after midnight (when the temperature dropped) because the stench was too extreme during the summer heat. They used searchlights throughout the night while they combed areas as to not do possible further damage to Lori’s remains. Even the cadaver dogs could not handle the extreme smells and could only work for short periods of time, and needed days of rest in between. They eventually recover a total of 16 pounds of bone fragments and hair to give to Lori’s parents for a “proper burial”. They didn’t need to do this for a conviction, because Mark’s parents convinced him to plea guilty and avoid a trial. They did it because they felt it was the right thing to do.

I have faith in the West Valley Police department that they will solve this crime. I do not think Josh is smarter than their force.

PickieChickie
03-14-2010, 07:15 AM
http://www.examiner.com/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m3d9-Strip-club-owner-says-Josh-Powell-came-into-his-bar-Dec-14-a-week-after-Susan-Powell-went-missing

"Finally, at 4:48 p.m. Jennifer Graves, Josh's sister, received a call from Josh. When she realized Susan was not with Josh, she informed him Susan was missing. While Josh said he was in town it took him nearly an hour to get home." ....

"Witnesses claim they saw Josh at the bar from about 2:30 p.m. to approximately 5 p.m. that afternoon."


.................................................. .............statements are from the above article.

It has been stated in several different articles that Jovanna had called and spoken with Josh. The times hasn't been consistent, I've seen it stated it was 3pm and I've seen it stated at 4 pm.

Whether Jovanna called at 3 or 4 pm - either time would place Josh inside the bar (if indeed he was the guy). Jennifer's call would also have been during the time some witnesses claim that Josh was in the bar.

Why are the times different in this article than the other articles? First she writes as a title that Josh was in the bar one week after Susan disappeared now she gives conflicting times.

The people who were interviewed on TV stated Josh was in the bar from 1 to 1 1/2 hours, that he arrived at 2:00 PM. which would make Josh NOT in the bar at 4:48. If he arrived home two hours after 4:48, that would bring him home at almost 7:00.

sunnydee
03-14-2010, 08:27 AM
Why are the times different in this article than the other articles? First she writes as a title that Josh was in the bar one week after Susan disappeared now she gives conflicting times.

The people who were interviewed on TV stated Josh was in the bar from 1 to 1 1/2 hours, that he arrived at 2:00 PM. which would make Josh NOT in the bar at 4:48. If he arrived home two hours after 4:48, that would bring him home at almost 7:00.

PC, I remember Peterson saying that it took Josh two hours after being informed by neighbors who had called Josh that the police were looking for Susan and to get home. (I think he was aware of and was referring to Jovanna's phone call which some sources are giving to be 3 pm and other times 4 pm). So the 2 hours after the 4 pm call would be 6 pm.

sunnydee
03-14-2010, 09:04 AM
PC - These are two local news sources who interviewed the club witnesses:

http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story/Did-Josh-Powell-visit-strip-club-the-day-after/666gpASkxkaAnXq87NEPgA.cspx

He caused such a ruckus, that when he left the bar around 4:30 p.m. Sherman said, “Everybody applauded.”




http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=9941987

Josh showed up to his home with the kids between 5:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. that evening.
The man strip club employees identified as Powell came in around 2 p.m. wearing a hat. He ordered two beers and a shot and left after about an hour-and-a-half to two hours. Burkholder says customers moved away from him and actually applauded as he walked out the door.


BBM

sunnydee
03-14-2010, 09:28 AM
One more local source who interviewed witnesses:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700015183/Police-doubt-Powell-strip-club-story.html
There were a handful of people in the bar at the time, Cooper said, most of them regular patrons. This man was not.
The man was in the club between 4 and 5 p.m., Cooper said. Other patrons from the club have told KSL Radio that the man was in the bar about 2 p.m.

...................................
BBM There are a lot of discrepancies in their time frame (which would be a common occurrence with any witnesses, but could be further compounded by the fact that these witnesses are "regulars" in the afternoon at a strip bar. I think an attorney would be questioning how much have these witnesses been drinking themselves and a lot of other questions that may put into question the reliability of their memory.

sunnydee
03-14-2010, 12:59 PM
http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_14670710

The above link is not related to Susan's situation, but I hope you won't mind if I post it here for some thoughts. Susan and Josh were not seeking counseling through this agency. (I just wanted to make that clear)

The story is about treating "low level" domestic violence couples in treatment together. In the past, the victim was in treatment separately from the perp (if both were in counseling).

My concern is wouldn't Susan and Josh's relationship be considered "low level" as far as their criteria goes. It wasn't physical abuse - until she vanished.

To call verbal or emotional abuse "low level" seems to suggest a lower risk, and it doesn't seem to be the case. In some cases the first physical attack is the last - (and not in a good way).

I suppose in a way, it is good to have them labeling the behavior as "abuse" and not just tell them that they are in couples counseling.

PickieChickie
03-14-2010, 01:15 PM
http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_14670710

The above link is not related to Susan's situation, but I hope you won't mind if I post it here for some thoughts. Susan and Josh were not seeking counseling through this agency. (I just wanted to make that clear)

The story is about treating "low level" domestic violence couples in treatment together. In the past, the victim was in treatment separately from the perp (if both were in counseling).

My concern is wouldn't Susan and Josh's relationship be considered "low level" as far as their criteria goes. It wasn't physical abuse - until she vanished.

To call verbal or emotional abuse "low level" seems to suggest a lower risk, and it doesn't seem to be the case. In some cases the first physical attack is the last - (and not in a good way).

I suppose in a way, it is good to have them labeling the behavior as "abuse" and not just tell them that they are in couples counseling.

I suspect the majority of people who go to domestic violence counseling do so because they were ordered by the court, either because they battered their significant other, their child or another family member.

Most of the people who are ordered to attend counseling are resentful for being forced to attend, and in many cases, pay for the services they never wanted to begin with.

I would suspect the majority of couples who, on their own accord, seek domestic violence counseling will benefit from the services.

When a person has been found guilty of domestic violence, there is generally a restraining order in place which prohibits contact between the victim and perpetrator, so joint counseling is not practical.

It won't surprise me to learn the results of this study show that the majority of couples benefited from the counseling because they wanted to save their marriage by learning how to properly interact with each other.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that joint counseling will work when the participants are willingly attending the sessions.

grayjay
03-14-2010, 02:32 PM
Time passes, often many years, where verbal insults or other assaults wear down self esteem of one or both partners in an abusive relationship, and maybe there are fights for control on various fronts, to the point where both partners feel they're getting a bad deal somehow. Meanwhile, a person who needs to learn new skills doesn't see it and refuses to participate of any sort of therapy, putting the problem entirely on the other person.

Because of these things, problems will escalate while the abuse is not yet attracting external attention. Unless the questions asked to each individual at the beginning of any process to evaluate what is going on help that person to see the nature and level of abuse and give it a name, I don't think these new approaches will reach these well-educated people.

I think for some reason couples like Susan and Josh lack basic communication skills. Otherwise, how is it that Susan is setting goals for Josh.

PickieChickie
03-14-2010, 02:35 PM
Time passes, often many years, where verbal insults or other assaults wear down self esteem of one or both partners in an abusive relationship, and maybe there are fights for control on various fronts, to the point where both partners feel they're getting a bad deal somehow. Meanwhile, a person who needs to learn new skills doesn't see it and refuses to participate of any sort of therapy, putting the problem entirely on the other person.

Because of these things, problems will escalate while the abuse is not yet attracting external attention. Unless the questions asked to each individual at the beginning of any process to evaluate what is going on help that person to see the nature and level of abuse and give it a name, I don't think these new approaches will reach these well-educated people.

I think for some reason couples like Susan and Josh lack basic communication skills. Otherwise, how is it that Susan is setting goals for Josh.

Exactly. And I am most certain Susan's goal setting really pissed Josh off. Did you know his goal for her was that she wouldn't tell her mother things about him?

RayO
03-15-2010, 02:22 PM
Exactly. And I am most certain Susan's goal setting really pissed Josh off. Did you know his goal for her was that she wouldn't tell her mother things about him?

Seems to me that both of them had a very poor handle on the concept of personal goals. Both sound like demands or ultimatums to me. Neither of which are very constructive, in my opinion. I would hope their counselor told them that.

PickieChickie
03-15-2010, 06:34 PM
Seems to me that both of them had a very poor handle on the concept of personal goals. Both sound like demands or ultimatums to me. Neither of which are very constructive, in my opinion. I would hope their counselor told them that.

It appears this counselor was highly incompetent. Of course we do not know how much Susan told this TRAINED PROFESSIONAL, but if they had the proper education, they would have been able to recognize the RED FLAGS of domestic abuse Susan was forced to suffer through.

This counselor certainly advised Susan poorly. Rather than advise Susan to leave Josh, they encourage her to set goals/ultimatums for a man who was clearly demanding that he be the supreme master of his home to the point where his children had to wear shoes that were too small, Susan had to bike 14 miles round trip to work, etc.? GIVE ME A BREAK!

A lot of blame should be cast towards this counselor for the outcome of the Susan and Josh Powell union!

diphi
03-15-2010, 07:29 PM
It appears this counselor was highly incompetent. Of course we do not know how much Susan told this TRAINED PROFESSIONAL, but if they had the proper education, they would have been able to recognize the RED FLAGS of domestic abuse Susan was forced to suffer through.

This counselor certainly advised Susan poorly. Rather than advise Susan to leave Josh, they encourage her to set goals/ultimatums for a man who was clearly demanding that he be the supreme master of his home to the point where his children had to wear shoes that were too small, Susan had to bike 14 miles round trip to work, etc.? GIVE ME A BREAK!

A lot of blame should be cast towards this counselor for the outcome of the Susan and Josh Powell union!

We don't know what kinds of conversations they had. Perhaps the counselor did recommend she leave him, but Susan wasn't in that "place" at the time. Perhaps the counselor resorted to an approach that was more acceptable to Susan. We just don't know...Counseling isn't a one-way proposition...seems like you might have to work with what you have.

grayjay
03-15-2010, 07:54 PM
We don't know what kinds of conversations they had. Perhaps the counselor did recommend she leave him, but Susan wasn't in that "place" at the time. Perhaps the counselor resorted to an approach that was more acceptable to Susan. We just don't know...Counseling isn't a one-way proposition...seems like you might have to work with what you have.
Do we even know if they went back and discussed these so-called goals they had come up with, with the counselor? I would definitely place some blame with the professional who failed to point out to them that their homework results could aggravate their situation and weren't goals at all, if that's what happened.

gwenabob
03-15-2010, 07:56 PM
We don't know what kinds of conversations they had. Perhaps the counselor did recommend she leave him, but Susan wasn't in that "place" at the time. Perhaps the counselor resorted to an approach that was more acceptable to Susan. We just don't know...Counseling isn't a one-way proposition...seems like you might have to work with what you have.

I think we should wait to pass judgment on the counselor. The only information we have is second or third hand. I doubt the counselor really made it an assignment for the two of them to "make goals" for each other. I suspect it is more nuanced that that.

Probably more along the lines of each telling each other what behavior they exhibit that makes them unhappy, then going a step further and compromising or negotiating--"If I stop doing this, then you promise to do that" sort of thing. That, I can see happening.

As far as the abuse, I do think the counselor should have spotted that, but it is completely possible it was never disclosed.

PickieChickie
03-15-2010, 07:57 PM
We don't know what kinds of conversations they had. Perhaps the counselor did recommend she leave him, but Susan wasn't in that "place" at the time. Perhaps the counselor resorted to an approach that was more acceptable to Susan. We just don't know...Counseling isn't a one-way proposition...seems like you might have to work with what you have.

I am sure the counselor asked Susan WHY she wanted to attend marriage counseling. I am sure Susan told the counselor "because Josh won't do this and that and because he does do this and that".

Susan was sharing the various abusive things Josh was doing with Tim Peterson. I'm sure she shared the same with this counselor. Susan set the goals during the counseling sessions. Clearly, she didn't come up with the idea on her own or she would have done that prior to going to see the MORMON/LDS counselor.

Also, there was a deadline for Josh to be "confirmed" by the church or whatever the term is: April of 2010.

Josh also was asked to set goals for Susan.

This clearly sounds like the counselor had everything to do with the goal setting approach.

gwenabob
03-15-2010, 08:11 PM
I am sure the counselor asked Susan WHY she wanted to attend marriage counseling. I am sure Susan told the counselor "because Josh won't do this and that and because he does do this and that".

Susan was sharing the various abusive things Josh was doing with Tim Peterson. I'm sure she shared the same with this counselor. Susan set the goals during the counseling sessions. Clearly, she didn't come up with the idea on her own or she would have done that prior to going to see the MORMON/LDS counselor.

Also, there was a deadline for Josh to be "confirmed" by the church or whatever the term is: April of 2010.

Josh also was asked to set goals for Susan.

This clearly sounds like the counselor had everything to do with the goal setting approach.

Well, if that is truly what happened, then it was not a good approach. I think the first thing a marriage counselor would learn is that we cannot control the behavior of others. We can only control our own behavior.

But like I said, it is second and third hand information and it may have happened a little differently than how we understand it.

grayjay
03-15-2010, 08:35 PM
This clearly sounds like the counselor had everything to do with the goal setting approach.
There's nothing wrong with a goal setting approach, if indeed GOALS get discussed and set. This doesn't sound like what happened, and we can be sure of a lot of things but not about what actually took place. Do we even know how many hours they met?

GrandmaTo4
03-15-2010, 08:43 PM
I think we should wait to pass judgment on the counselor. The only information we have is second or third hand. I doubt the counselor really made it an assignment for the two of them to "make goals" for each other. I suspect it is more nuanced that that.

Probably more along the lines of each telling each other what behavior they exhibit that makes them unhappy, then going a step further and compromising or negotiating--"If I stop doing this, then you promise to do that" sort of thing. That, I can see happening.

As far as the abuse, I do think the counselor should have spotted that, but it is completely possible it was never disclosed.

(bbm)

It seems pretty strange that a year ago from her Wells Fargo journals Susan would have:

1. Set up a separate bank account --
2. Written a statement to her boys that she would never commit suicide or never leave them on her own accord --
3. Set up an escape plan to have a safe place to go if/when she left Josh --

But she did NOT tell the ward counselor what was truly going on in her marriage. :waitasec:

Perhaps the counselor was trained to encourage an acceptance, or even preference of male superiority/dominance within a marriage? That could certainly have kept Susan in the marriage longer than she knew was wise.

Frankly, I think a patriarchal mindset is dangerous for all women! :mad:
imho

gwenabob
03-15-2010, 09:02 PM
(bbm)

It seems pretty strange that a year ago from her Wells Fargo journals Susan would have:

1. Set up a separate bank account --
2. Written a statement to her boys that she would never commit suicide or never leave them on her own accord --
3. Set up an escape plan to have a safe place to go if/when she left Josh --

But she did NOT tell the ward counselor what was truly going on in her marriage. :waitasec:

Perhaps the counselor was trained to encourage an acceptance, or even preference of male superiority/dominance within a marriage? That could certainly have kept Susan in the marriage longer than she knew was wise.

Frankly, I think a patriarchal mindset is dangerous for all women! :mad:
imho

When she wrote in the diary, it was private. When she met with the counselor, it was with Josh. Don't you think there might be a difference in what is disclosed in the two different scenarios?

BTW, it is not a ward counselor. It is a licensed marriage counselor who happens to work with LDS couples. And please, please, please, stop with the male superiority and patriarchal schtick. I am LDS. I know NOBODY in my church who thinks it is ok for a man to treat a woman as an inferior. NOBODY who thinks it is ok to abuse a spouse. NOBODY who thinks it is ok to look the other way when it is happening. Will you believe me? Please?

gwenabob
03-15-2010, 09:05 PM
I have never been to (or needed) marriage counseling. I am learning a lot about the different theories and styles because of this case. I am convinced from what I have read lately that it is a big mistake for couples to meet together until the counselor is confident from meeting several times with each partner individually, that there is no abuse going on. What spouse would feel free to discuss abuse with a third party with the abuser sitting right next to them? That just seems counterintuitive!

grayjay
03-15-2010, 09:59 PM
And please, please, please, stop with the male superiority and patriarchal schtick.

LOL I never thought of it as a schtick before, but it is. I hear they're planning to take Thomas Jefferson out of the textbooks in Texas and replace him with a woman. Oh, wait! I mean John Calvin.

If you live in the US of A you are part of a patriarchal system. Any women on your coins or paper money? Not mine.

PickieChickie
03-15-2010, 10:04 PM
LOL I never thought of it as a schtick before, but it is. I hear they're planning to take Thomas Jefferson out of the textbooks in Texas and replace him with a woman. Oh, wait! I mean John Calvin.

If you live in the US of A you are part of a patriarchal system. Any women on your coins or paper money? Not mine.


http://i.treehugger.com/images/2007-3-21/US%2520one%2520dollar%2520coin.jpg
http://www.teacupmammoths.com/Susan%20B%20Anthony%20coin.jpg

grayjay
03-15-2010, 10:21 PM
The same things that went on between Josh and Susan go on in countless other families based in many religions in this country, and religion plays a part in the well intended effort to keep marriages together. The underlying sickness and lack of communication skills is not addressed. As important as goals are, why are people not learning how to recognize them and to start setting them in seventh grade?

gwenabob
03-15-2010, 10:30 PM
Those coins are lovely, and about time!

And for those who want to accuse the LDS church of being anti-women, please keep in mind the Utah was the first state in which women voted! (Wyoming was the first to allow women to vote, but Utah had an actual election first). They were way ahead of the pack on women's suffrage.

For those who don't know, my sister was murdered by her husband in 1980. She was 22. Guess what? She was not LDS. She was Methodist. Her husband? Muslim. Where were their religious leaders when the abuse was going on? Please, everyone. This happens all over regardless of religion. Let's not pretend otherwise.

GrandmaTo4
03-16-2010, 12:13 AM
When she wrote in the diary, it was private. When she met with the counselor, it was with Josh. Don't you think there might be a difference in what is disclosed in the two different scenarios?

(bbm)

No, because there were plenty of Susan's friends and family who also knew the terrible things that were going on in the marriage, including Josh's sister. How else would we know?

No, because anytime someone writes an official, saved letter that says she would never commit suicide or leave her boys on her own accord, she has to be mighty darned scared!

Have you ever written a letter that said you would not commit suicide and made sure it was saved somewhere where your husband couldn't discover it and dispose of it? I certainly have not!

Josh told Susan she was crazy. Susan saw a mental health therapist on her own to make sure she wasn't crazy.

No, If Susan was seeing a marriage counselor within the church at that stage -- in FEAR for her life -- what was the point of NOT telling the truth about her marriage if she was seeing the counselor at all?

I also believe that Tim Peterson said that Josh didn't always participate in the marriage counseling sessions. If Susan was worried about speaking in front of Josh, she certainly could/would have communicated with the counselor during individual sessions that Josh didn't attend.



BTW, it is not a ward counselor. It is a licensed marriage counselor who happens to work with LDS couples. And please, please, please, stop with the male superiority and patriarchal schtick. I am LDS. I know NOBODY in my church who thinks it is ok for a man to treat a woman as an inferior. NOBODY who thinks it is ok to abuse a spouse. NOBODY who thinks it is ok to look the other way when it is happening. Will you believe me? Please?

It might be "a licensed marriage counselor who happens to work with LDS couples" - but 99% of the time the marriage counselor is a member in good standing of the LDS Church.

I'll be glad to believe anything you tell me about YOUR LDS congregation and/or YOUR experiences. Apparently the LDS teachings are different in Utah than in parts of California. My experience are obviously different from yours.

Our Constitutionally Protected opinions are ALL about individual perceptions and real, INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCES, don't you think?

I live in an area with a very high LDS population. My three daughters grew up with many of their best friends, Mormon. I KNOW how their friends' marriages have evolved - with ward counseling.

All but two of the Mormon girls (women) have left the LDS church mostly because of the sanctioned excuses for almost any unacceptable husband-behavior.

I don't believe women should be told to constantly forgive a husband when he has multiple affairs over and over again -- or when he spends the mortgage money again and again on gambling. Do you?

All but one of the women have remarried non-Mormon men, and so far, they're doing fine. If the non-Mormon men screw-up there is no one telling the women to pray harder to forgive the husband to keep the eternal family intact.

The men know they won't have anyone in power defending them if their behavior is unacceptable. There are no sanctioned excuses from high religious authorities in their non-Mormon marriages. IMO, the relationships are much more equal and not patriarchal.

To be fair, I know a family with 5 Mormon sons and ALL of them are honorable and wonderful to their wives and children. Besides the LDS Church the boys (men) have fantastic role models with their devoted Mormon parents, who I know and deeply respect.

There are many patriarchal religions. IMO, Islam is at the head of the list. I'm very, very sorry about your sister as I'm very, very sorry about Susan. :mad:

Bartleby
03-16-2010, 12:31 AM
(bbm)

It seems pretty strange that a year ago from her Wells Fargo journals Susan would have:

1. Set up a separate bank account --
2. Written a statement to her boys that she would never commit suicide or never leave them on her own accord --
3. Set up an escape plan to have a safe place to go if/when she left Josh --

But she did NOT tell the ward counselor what was truly going on in her marriage. :waitasec:

Perhaps the counselor was trained to encourage an acceptance, or even preference of male superiority/dominance within a marriage? That could certainly have kept Susan in the marriage longer than she knew was wise.

Frankly, I think a patriarchal mindset is dangerous for all women! :mad:
imho

I was unaware that this much detail had been released about her journal, could you give your source please?

dovebar
03-16-2010, 12:41 AM
(bbm)

No, because there were plenty of Susan's friends and family who also knew the terrible things that were going on in the marriage, including Josh's sister. How else would we know?

No, because anytime someone writes an official, saved letter that says she would never commit suicide or leave her boys on her own accord, she has to be mighty darned scared!

Have you ever written a letter that said you would not commit suicide and made sure it was saved somewhere where your husband couldn't discover it and dispose of it? I certainly have not!

Josh told Susan she was crazy. Susan saw a mental health therapist on her own to make sure she wasn't crazy.

No, If Susan was seeing a marriage counselor within the church at that stage -- in FEAR for her life -- what was the point of NOT telling the truth about her marriage if she was seeing the counselor at all?

I also believe that Tim Peterson said that Josh didn't always participate in the marriage counseling sessions. If Susan was worried about speaking in front of Josh, she certainly could/would have communicated with the counselor during individual sessions that Josh didn't attend.



It might be "a licensed marriage counselor who happens to work with LDS couples" - but 99% of the time the marriage counselor is a member in good standing of the LDS Church.

I'll be glad to believe anything you tell me about YOUR LDS congregation and/or YOUR experiences. Apparently the LDS teachings are different in Utah than in parts of California. My experience are obviously different from yours.

Our Constitutionally Protected opinions are ALL about individual perceptions and real, INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCES, don't you think?

I live in an area with a very high LDS population. My three daughters grew up with many of their best friends, Mormon. I KNOW how their friends' marriages have evolved - with ward counseling.

All but two of the Mormon girls (women) have left the LDS church mostly because of the sanctioned excuses for almost any unacceptable husband-behavior.

I don't believe women should be told to constantly forgive a husband when he has multiple affairs over and over again -- or when he spends the mortgage money again and again on gambling. Do you?

All but one of the women have remarried non-Mormon men, and so far, they're doing fine. If the non-Mormon men screw-up there is no one telling the women to pray harder to forgive the husband to keep the eternal family intact.

The men know they won't have anyone in power defending them if their behavior is unacceptable. There are no sanctioned excuses from high religious authorities in their non-Mormon marriages. IMO, the relationships are much more equal and not patriarchal.

To be fair, I know a family with 5 Mormon sons and ALL of them are honorable and wonderful to their wives and children. Besides the LDS Church the boys (men) have fantastic role models with their devoted Mormon parents, who I know and deeply respect.

There are many patriarchal religions. IMO, Islam is at the head of the list. I'm very, very sorry about your sister as I'm very, very sorry about Susan. :mad:

Good balance here. I also think it is important to note that what a Mormon woman is told may vary from one ward to the next. Also, Utah wards are known as much more conservative than wards in many other places in terms of support for a woman who is being abused.

Anyone who knew, though, that Susan had written such a letter and did not advise her to LEAVE IMMEDIATELY really has blood on their hands. People should not be living with their abusers or those they are afraid of. Couples can separate and work towards getting back together, if they think it's possible.

If there are women out there reading (or abused men), if you are afraid, please leave immediately. Please listen to your instincts screaming at you and be safe. Call family, call a shelter and take your kids and go, and worry about the logistics later. Many women have done this and avoided ending up like Susan. Some people just aren't meant to live together and you do not have to be unsafe in order to be righteous.

gwenabob
03-16-2010, 12:52 AM
Good balance here. I also think it is important to note that what a Mormon woman is told may vary from one ward to the next. Also, Utah wards are known as much more conservative than wards in many other places in terms of support for a woman who is being abused.

Anyone who knew, though, that Susan had written such a letter and did not advise her to LEAVE IMMEDIATELY really has blood on their hands. People should not be living with their abusers or those they are afraid of. Couples can separate and work towards getting back together, if they think it's possible.

If there are women out there reading (or abused men), if you are afraid, please leave immediately. Please listen to your instincts screaming at you and be safe. Call family, call a shelter and take your kids and go, and worry about the logistics later. Many women have done this and avoided ending up like Susan. Some people just aren't meant to live together and you do not have to be unsafe in order to be righteous.

AFAIK, it was only her co-workers at Wells Fargo who knew about the secret journal that she kept in her desk. I have not heard of any other friends outside of work who knew of it first hand.

gwenabob
03-16-2010, 12:56 AM
(bbm)

No, because there were plenty of Susan's friends and family who also knew the terrible things that were going on in the marriage, including Josh's sister. How else would we know?

No, because anytime someone writes an official, saved letter that says she would never commit suicide or leave her boys on her own accord, she has to be mighty darned scared!

Have you ever written a letter that said you would not commit suicide and made sure it was saved somewhere where your husband couldn't discover it and dispose of it? I certainly have not!

Josh told Susan she was crazy. Susan saw a mental health therapist on her own to make sure she wasn't crazy.

No, If Susan was seeing a marriage counselor within the church at that stage -- in FEAR for her life -- what was the point of NOT telling the truth about her marriage if she was seeing the counselor at all?

I also believe that Tim Peterson said that Josh didn't always participate in the marriage counseling sessions. If Susan was worried about speaking in front of Josh, she certainly could/would have communicated with the counselor during individual sessions that Josh didn't attend.



It might be "a licensed marriage counselor who happens to work with LDS couples" - but 99% of the time the marriage counselor is a member in good standing of the LDS Church.

I'll be glad to believe anything you tell me about YOUR LDS congregation and/or YOUR experiences. Apparently the LDS teachings are different in Utah than in parts of California. My experience are obviously different from yours.

Our Constitutionally Protected opinions are ALL about individual perceptions and real, INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCES, don't you think?

I live in an area with a very high LDS population. My three daughters grew up with many of their best friends, Mormon. I KNOW how their friends' marriages have evolved - with ward counseling.

All but two of the Mormon girls (women) have left the LDS church mostly because of the sanctioned excuses for almost any unacceptable husband-behavior.

I don't believe women should be told to constantly forgive a husband when he has multiple affairs over and over again -- or when he spends the mortgage money again and again on gambling. Do you?

All but one of the women have remarried non-Mormon men, and so far, they're doing fine. If the non-Mormon men screw-up there is no one telling the women to pray harder to forgive the husband to keep the eternal family intact.

The men know they won't have anyone in power defending them if their behavior is unacceptable. There are no sanctioned excuses from high religious authorities in their non-Mormon marriages. IMO, the relationships are much more equal and not patriarchal.

To be fair, I know a family with 5 Mormon sons and ALL of them are honorable and wonderful to their wives and children. Besides the LDS Church the boys (men) have fantastic role models with their devoted Mormon parents, who I know and deeply respect.

There are many patriarchal religions. IMO, Islam is at the head of the list. I'm very, very sorry about your sister as I'm very, very sorry about Susan. :mad:

No, I don't believe women should be expected to forgive husbands bad behavior over and over. Nope.

This reminds me of a co-worker of mine. She has two boys and her husband has had multiple affairs. She almost left him last year, but didn't. She felt that she needed to be more forgiving. She's Catholic. And a lawyer.

Let's face it. Men and women of all faiths screw up. Let's stop blaming any one faith for it. This is turning into another Grandma Mormon bashing session and if it doesn't stop, I will complain.

dovebar
03-16-2010, 02:20 AM
No one is bashing Mormons, nor has anyone denied that abusive marriages span many religions and those who are not religious.

Susan and Josh were Mormon and their counseling was connected to the faith, apparently. Posters need to be able to realistically talk about elements of this case, including the counseling and who might have known what, without being accused of "bashing."

For instance, it is sad that if Susan's co-workers were the only one who knew about the abuse, why? Why did Susan not feel she could tell others about the abuse, if indeed she did not? Is it true that others didn't know anything, if not about the journal? Actually, we have had people come forward with "Josh stories" about his behavior that they thought was disturbing. People need to know that these red flags are serious. A lot of people are following this case and although it looks like it is too late for Susan, it is not for many others.

The point remains, if you are hiding a secret abuse journal at work, you need to get real and quit thinking that will protect you. And whoever knows about it needs to urge you to leave for your own safety. People often ignore warnings so we will probably never know if Susan did. But it is not too late for others to quit with the goal-setting or whatever hare-brained ideas counselors of all stripes might dream up and just get safe.

gwenabob
03-16-2010, 02:23 AM
No one is bashing Mormons, nor has anyone denied that abusive marriages span many religions and those who are not religious.

Susan and Josh were Mormon and their counseling was connected to the faith, apparently. Posters need to be able to realistically talk about elements of this case, including the counseling and who might have known what, without being accused of "bashing."

For instance, it is sad that if Susan's co-workers were the only one who knew about the abuse, why? Why did Susan not feel she could tell others about the abuse, if indeed she did not? Is it true that others didn't know anything, if not about the journal? Actually, we have had people come forward with "Josh stories" about his behavior that they thought was disturbing. People need to know that these red flags are serious. A lot of people are following this case and although it looks like it is too late for Susan, it is not for many others.

The point remains, if you are hiding a secret abuse journal at work, you need to get real and quit thinking that will protect you. And whoever knows about it needs to urge you to leave for your own safety. People often ignore warnings so we will probably never know if Susan did. But it is not too late for others to quit with the goal-setting or whatever hare-brained ideas counselors of all stripes might dream up and just get safe.

It's like watching a slasher flick and screaming at the actors to get out of the house! Easy for us to see from the outside. Not so easy for those involved.

AlexisFresca
03-16-2010, 03:03 AM
I am sure the counselor asked Susan WHY she wanted to attend marriage counseling. I am sure Susan told the counselor "because Josh won't do this and that and because he does do this and that".

Susan was sharing the various abusive things Josh was doing with Tim Peterson. I'm sure she shared the same with this counselor. Susan set the goals during the counseling sessions. Clearly, she didn't come up with the idea on her own or she would have done that prior to going to see the MORMON/LDS counselor.

Also, there was a deadline for Josh to be "confirmed" by the church or whatever the term is: April of 2010.

Josh also was asked to set goals for Susan.

This clearly sounds like the counselor had everything to do with the goal setting approach.


Okay, I find myself confused here. Are we talking about two different counselors simultaneously here? If so, who is this other counselor and where did he/she come from and when did they become a part of their equation? I had the impression that the only one they were talking to (more Susan than Josh) was Tim Peterson. :waitasec:

As for the 'setting goals' angle, I have mixed thoughts on it. Perhaps it was recommended as a way for them to see that if things didn't work out between them, that there would be a plan in place they could implement. No??

AlexisFresca
03-16-2010, 03:20 AM
Those coins are lovely, and about time!

And for those who want to accuse the LDS church of being anti-women, please keep in mind the Utah was the first state in which women voted! (Wyoming was the first to allow women to vote, but Utah had an actual election first). They were way ahead of the pack on women's suffrage.

For those who don't know, my sister was murdered by her husband in 1980. She was 22. Guess what? She was not LDS. She was Methodist. Her husband? Muslim. Where were their religious leaders when the abuse was going on? Please, everyone. This happens all over regardless of religion. Let's not pretend otherwise.


Gwenabob, I'm so sorry to hear that that happened to your sister. I hope he was tried and convicted, and not able to escape prosecution or even flee the country for that matter?

You make a valid point, in that, it happens regardless of religion and no religion is exempt (though I do feel Muslims have the least respect for women, imo).

Without knowing what was said at these counseling sessions, its all speculation on our parts. That aside, I think its obvious that anyone seeking counseling through a church will be encouraged to stay in a marriage and that the counseling will obviously be Biblically based. The success of any counseling, imo, weighs heavily on the participants being honest and telling the truth about why they are there, and being sincere about wanting to get help/taking the steps necessary to make the improvements in their relationship. Without that, all efforts are in vain and the best course for action cannot be suggested with complete accuracy jmo.

hollyblue
03-16-2010, 03:25 AM
Okay, I find myself confused here. Are we talking about two different counselors simultaneously here? If so, who is this other counselor and where did he/she come from and when did they become a part of their equation? I had the impression that the only one they were talking to (more Susan than Josh) was Tim Peterson. :waitasec:

As for the 'setting goals' angle, I have mixed thoughts on it. Perhaps it was recommended as a way for them to see that if things didn't work out between them, that there would be a plan in place they could implement. No??

Susan and Josh were seeking marriage counselling from the church. Susan more so than Josh. He apparently quit going. Just my feelings, but I think the counselor either didn't have the full picture of their scenario, or was a total airhead. I think he was trying to give Susan advice on how to accomplish her goal--whether to pray and fast, and if that didn't work to have a back up plan in place----not knowing the scope of Josh's behavior and the father's involvement.

ETA: I think Susan was just a young woman wanting her marriage to work.....sooo badly. How could she really tell the counsellor of the hideous things he had done and expect him to help her save her marriage? This had been going on for more than half the marriage. I'm sure she thought--if I just have kids. If I just do this....maybe when I.........She had been putting all the earnest on herself for so long and was wanting him to man up.....Something he still can't do. I don't think Susan told all and I think Josh hid himself from the counselor...he wasn't going to church any longer...

GrandmaTo4
03-16-2010, 04:27 AM
AFAIK, it was only her co-workers at Wells Fargo who knew about the secret journal that she kept in her desk. I have not heard of any other friends outside of work who knew of it first hand.

Did they know about THESE things? :confused: >>>>>>

How about Susan being forced to ride a bicycle 14 miles on a busy road back and forth to work?

How about Susan not being able to buy fruits and vegetables for her small growing boys?

How about Susan receiving a belligerent tongue-lashing from Josh -- for buying shoes for Charlie and Braden when their shoes were outgrown?

How about Josh undermining Susan's reasonable and proper discipline of the boys?

How about Josh attempting to bribe the boys to NOT go to church with Susan?

How about Josh making Susan and the boys WALK back and forth to church in subfreezing weather when the van was sitting in the garage unused?

How about yelling at Susan to "SHUT-UP" for no good reason, in front of their friends?

How about Josh refusing to allow Susan to have a set of car keys?

How about Josh refusing Susan the use the home computer?

How about Josh changing the pin number on the bank accounts so Susan couldn't have access -- even though it was Susan who earned the majority of the family's money -- and who earned ALL the money during plenty of their marriage?

How about the one time (at least) that Josh got PHYSICALLY ABUSIVE with Susan?

Those incidents did NOT come from the journals at Wells Fargo -- they came from Susan's friends and family from personally witnessing them or first hand information.

As far as I can tell, the only person who cared enough about Susan and had big enough cojones to advise her to kick selfish-abuser-Josh to the curb was Tim Peterson. He's the ONLY one of the bunch who has my total respect and admiration!

Perhaps if ALL the rest of them hadn't been so MALE-SUPPORTIVE Susan would be alive today! :mad:

GrandmaTo4
03-16-2010, 04:32 AM
I was unaware that this much detail had been released about her journal, could you give your source please?

I've read all of those details from several sources, Bartleby. They have all been discussed here on Websleuths several times, too.

I'll google to see if I can find the original source. It was early-on in the investigation, IIRC.

Someone on the SL Trib comments site claimed they had a relative who worked at Wells Fargo who told him/her that Josh had come storming into the Bank demanding to know everything contained in Susan's Journals. I don't think anyone believed that! But it seemed well known that the journals DID exist.

GrandmaTo4
03-16-2010, 05:35 AM
Okay, I find myself confused here. Are we talking about two different counselors simultaneously here? If so, who is this other counselor and where did he/she come from and when did they become a part of their equation? I had the impression that the only one they were talking to (more Susan than Josh) was Tim Peterson. :waitasec:

As for the 'setting goals' angle, I have mixed thoughts on it. Perhaps it was recommended as a way for them to see that if things didn't work out between them, that there would be a plan in place they could implement. No??

(bbm)

AlexisFresca -

Susan AND Josh were going to a marriage counselor through the Church. Josh was reluctant to go at all and told Susan she was crazy -- i.e., mentally unbalanced, I assume.

Susan went to a mental health therapist on her own to find out if she could possibly be *crazy.* The therapist told her she was NOT!

Josh DID go to the Church Marriage Counselor with Susan - but probably not for every session.

Susan confided to LDS neighbor Tim Peterson regarding the ongoing Church Marriage Counseling and it was Tim Peterson who thought their marriage was soooo bad it was not salvageable. HE, Peterson, recommended that Susan divorce Josh.

It's been stated over and over that no one liked Josh. It appears that everyone knew he was extremely controlling and obnoxious. Why then was he treated with such kid-gloves deference?

Even after his totally lame alibi when Susan went suddenly missing he still got waaay more support than anyone can logically explain.

He's STILL DEFENDED even though everyone KNOWS Josh won't cooperate AT ALL with LE to find his missing wife -- or do a single darn thing to look for her -- or help her be found -- or allow Charlie & Braden to see their Cox or Graves families >>>>>
"Josh would NEVER drink alcohol! -- Josh would NEVER patronize a strip joint -- Josh would NEVER leave the boys in the van alone!"

R E A L L Y ? :waitasec: :banghead:

grayjay
03-16-2010, 06:13 AM
Okay, I find myself confused here. Are we talking about two different counselors simultaneously here? If so, who is this other counselor and where did he/she come from and when did they become a part of their equation? I had the impression that the only one they were talking to (more Susan than Josh) was Tim Peterson. :waitasec:

As for the 'setting goals' angle, I have mixed thoughts on it. Perhaps it was recommended as a way for them to see that if things didn't work out between them, that there would be a plan in place they could implement. No??
Tim Peterson was a friend and not the counselor. I wanted a friend who received a direct death threat from a spouse to get out of the marriage. It took a year. It was hard to watch, and I think that's what happened with Tim.

No clue here what happened with the goals thing, but a goal is so far from what either of them conjured up, it's mind boggling to me.

GrandmaTo4
03-16-2010, 08:17 AM
No one is bashing Mormons, nor has anyone denied that abusive marriages span many religions and those who are not religious.

Susan and Josh were Mormon and their counseling was connected to the faith, apparently. Posters need to be able to realistically talk about elements of this case, including the counseling and who might have known what, without being accused of "bashing."

For instance, it is sad that if Susan's co-workers were the only one who knew about the abuse, why? Why did Susan not feel she could tell others about the abuse, if indeed she did not? Is it true that others didn't know anything, if not about the journal? Actually, we have had people come forward with "Josh stories" about his behavior that they thought was disturbing. People need to know that these red flags are serious. A lot of people are following this case and although it looks like it is too late for Susan, it is not for many others.

The point remains, if you are hiding a secret abuse journal at work, you need to get real and quit thinking that will protect you. And whoever knows about it needs to urge you to leave for your own safety. People often ignore warnings so we will probably never know if Susan did. But it is not too late for others to quit with the goal-setting or whatever hare-brained ideas counselors of all stripes might dream up and just get safe.

(bbm)

AMEN ! _ dovebar - EVERYTHING you said is sooo TRUE ! _ :clap:

Thank you very much for your support regarding perceived bashing which isn't !

The real question is WHY didn't Susan tell her closest ward friends and family about the extent and totality of the serious abuse -- and her realistic FEARS about its escalation?

Her friends and family definitely knew about some of the abuse because it was they who made the information available for the Cox - Gifford press conference:

"Shelby Gifford, spokeswoman for Susan Cox Powell's family, said, 'The family now knows without reservation that Susan was a victim of domestic abuse in her own home.' They also say her husband, Josh Powell, was controlling."

http://www.examiner.com/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m3d1-Susan-Cox-Powell-Victim-of-domestic-abuse-experts-say-controlling-behavior-a-red-flag (http://www.examiner.com/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner%7Ey2010m3d1-Susan-Cox-Powell-Victim-of-domestic-abuse-experts-say-controlling-behavior-a-red-flag)

Like you, I would hope that from now on, no one will discount the plight of a controlled woman who's treated with less respect than a 19 Century slave.

There were enough red flags regarding Josh's treatment of Susan that if a person sees only 3 or 4 similar red flags with another controlled woman, I would hope they would intervene in every way possible to help keep the woman safe.

None of us want another woman hurt or killed by a cowardly wimp of a man who no one dares to challenge for whatever reason! :mad:

imho

PickieChickie
03-16-2010, 09:51 AM
Susan and Josh were seeking marriage counselling from the church. Susan more so than Josh. He apparently quit going. Just my feelings, but I think the counselor either didn't have the full picture of their scenario, or was a total airhead. I think he was trying to give Susan advice on how to accomplish her goal--whether to pray and fast, and if that didn't work to have a back up plan in place----not knowing the scope of Josh's behavior and the father's involvement.

ETA: I think Susan was just a young woman wanting her marriage to work.....sooo badly. How could she really tell the counsellor of the hideous things he had done and expect him to help her save her marriage? This had been going on for more than half the marriage. I'm sure she thought--if I just have kids. If I just do this....maybe when I.........She had been putting all the earnest on herself for so long and was wanting him to man up.....Something he still can't do. I don't think Susan told all and I think Josh hid himself from the counselor...he wasn't going to church any longer...

Someone wrote me saying a Mormon woman can't get to heaven unless her husband gives permission. Is this a true fact? If so, could that be part of the reason Susan wanted her marriage to work out so badly? Could fear of not making it to heaven have kept her in this dangerous union?

gwenabob
03-16-2010, 10:19 AM
Someone wrote me saying a Mormon woman can't get to heaven unless her husband gives permission. Is this a true fact? If so, could that be part of the reason Susan wanted her marriage to work out so badly? Could fear of not making it to heaven have kept her in this dangerous union?


sigh. Pickie, no, that is complete balderdash!!!!!

grayjay
03-16-2010, 10:44 AM
My own daughter isn't a Mormon. There are plenty of religions that say something strong about the evils of divorce. Plus, just like in the case with Josh and Susan, she has internalized her own opinions about divorce from a young age by watching what happens with close friends and family members who have gone through it and it scares her. Plus, by the time a Josh type character has finished breaking down her self-esteem and squandered all the assets along with all family goodwill, she hasn't a pot to piss in, so to speak.

If it's a challenge to phrase your position without blaming the Mormons, maybe it's your own bias that's in the way.

Bartleby
03-16-2010, 11:37 AM
I've read all of those details from several sources, Bartleby. They have all been discussed here on Websleuths several times, too.

I'll google to see if I can find the original source. It was early-on in the investigation, IIRC.

Someone on the SL Trib comments site claimed they had a relative who worked at Wells Fargo who told him/her that Josh had come storming into the Bank demanding to know everything contained in Susan's Journals. I don't think anyone believed that! But it seemed well known that the journals DID exist.

I agree it is publicly knowledge from early in the case that a journal existed, and discussed on this website, but I was unaware that any details of the contents of the journal had been publicly released. If you or anyone can find a link to the contents, I'd be interested. It won't help Susan now, but it might help other victims of domestic abuse to recognise the symptoms and get out safe.

PickieChickie
03-16-2010, 11:47 AM
I agree it is publicly knowledge from early in the case that a journal existed, and discussed on this website, but I was unaware that any details of the contents of the journal had been publicly released. If you or anyone can find a link to the contents, I'd be interested. It won't help Susan now, but it might help other victims of domestic abuse to recognise the symptoms and get out safe.

Susan wrote note she kept in her desk: "If I end up dead, it won't be by suicide."
Reporter also states, "You can see Josh Powell's hands and they appear very red."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nER_uvjjBtU

Bartleby
03-16-2010, 11:57 AM
Tim Peterson was a friend and not the counselor. I wanted a friend who received a direct death threat from a spouse to get out of the marriage. It took a year. It was hard to watch, and I think that's what happened with Tim.

No clue here what happened with the goals thing, but a goal is so far from what either of them conjured up, it's mind boggling to me.

Tim is an ex-neighbour and friend to Susan, and someone who had gone through marriage counselling himself. My understanding is that Susan spoke to him first about her marriage concerns and fears of Josh's behaviour, and he strongly suggested she leave Josh immediately. She didn't want to for whatever reasons, but did attempt to start marriage counselling sessions, which Josh initially attended and supported, but like everything Josh does, he failed to carry through his commitment.

IMO any marriage counselling that is not fully supported by both husband and wife is doomed to fail. Both partners have to accept they have a problem in their marriage, and want to fix the problem, before there's any hope of success.

As suggested a couple of pages ago, I would expect each partner to attend separate sessions until the counsellor feels they can be brought together for mutual sessions. Then, and only then, could any goals be set which have a hope of success, as the partner who has to achieve the goals obviously has to acknowledge the need for the goals.

Josh's failure to attend sessions, as he has failed at so many other tasks, doomed the marriage guidance plan. It takes two to steer the marriage boat, and Josh didn't seem to feel the need to face up to their problems.

From his POV, everything was fine. He had a wife who would support him financially, produce babies for him, and allow him to hold the family purse strings and van keys. Why would he wish to change this cosy situation? He didn't care whether Susan was actually happy in their marriage, that much is obvious from the patronising tone of the susanpowell.org website.

LaLaw2000
03-16-2010, 12:00 PM
On one of the newsclips, I saw that an 'expert' stated that the controversial picture on Josh's website was not photoshopped. I have never heard of this expert and I do not agree with him at all.

JMO

PickieChickie
03-16-2010, 12:11 PM
On one of the newsclips, I saw that an 'expert' stated that the controversial picture on Josh's website was not photoshopped. I have never heard of this expert and I do not agree with him at all.

JMO
I posted the article about the expert in the "Josh Powell SusanPowell.org" topic. I don't agree either. I looked at that photo very carefully and I can see, for one thing, a jagged edge along the outside of Susan's pant leg on the leg that Charlie is sitting on as though someone "drew" crop line around the photo to plant it into the snow scene or to merge the photo of Josh and Braden into the photo of Josh and Charlie.

I had a friend who is 52 years old and employed at a college as a graphic artist look at the photo and she wrote, without knowing the history behind the photo, "If this photo is not fake, I'll fall off my chair."

Gin
03-16-2010, 12:23 PM
On one of the newsclips, I saw that an 'expert' stated that the controversial picture on Josh's website was not photoshopped. I have never heard of this expert and I do not agree with him at all.

JMO

I agree with you. :)
Beyond that, I seriously doubt any authentic expert would put their reputation on the line without much more information, especially when the source is someone like JP. ;)

grayjay
03-16-2010, 12:24 PM
On one of the newsclips, I saw that an 'expert' stated that the controversial picture on Josh's website was not photoshopped. I have never heard of this expert and I do not agree with him at all.

JMO
I am a member of National Assoc. of Photoshop Professionals and have taken over two thousand photos of campfires and over 50,000 photos in the past two years, and published in numerous photography books.

I performed the same forensic tests on Josh's photo, and found it is one he could rightly be proud to have produced. He used too much flash, and clearly is a beginner, but has spent quite a chunk of his ill-gotten gains on some fancy equipment. I think he'd botch it big time if he tried to fake a fire, and one look at his purple ribbon thing shows off his level of photoshop skills quite accurately.

Fire is pretty hard to fake, and the expert explained the lighting issues very well. In fact, that is why I have created such a huge reference of fire photos for my own work.

PickieChickie
03-16-2010, 12:33 PM
I am a member of National Assoc. of Photoshop Professionals and have taken over two thousand photos of campfires and over 50,000 photos in the past two years, and published in numerous photography books.

I performed the same forensic tests on Josh's photo, and found it is one he could rightly be proud to have produced. He used too much flash, and clearly is a beginner, but has spent quite a chunk of his ill-gotten gains on some fancy equipment. I think he'd botch it big time if he tried to fake a fire, and one look at his purple ribbon thing shows off his level of photoshop skills quite accurately.

Fire is pretty hard to fake, and the expert explained the lighting issues very well. In fact, that is why I have created such a huge reference of fire photos for my own work.

It appears all these experts are looking at is to determine if the fire is fake. I have not focused on the fire but the photo details themselves. There are too many strange things about the photo which I've pointed out before. The fire is the least of my concerns.

Regardless if the photo is genuine, or not, Josh certainly did blur out his shirt and one has to wonder why. Also, his hand around Charlie's waist appears very strange and I do NOT see a wedding band on it although it is the hand men wear the band on.

grayjay
03-16-2010, 12:44 PM
It appears all these experts are looking at is to determine if the fire is fake. I have not focused on the fire but the photo details themselves. There are too many strange things about the photo which I've pointed out before. The fire is the least of my concerns.

Regardless if the photo is genuine, or not, Josh certainly did blur out his shirt and one has to wonder why. Also, his hand around Charlie's waist appears very strange and I do NOT see a wedding band on it although it is the hand men wear the band on.
I agree, it looks like the sweatshirt might have said BYU on it, and he wouldn't want that on his website, since he didn't go there. I tried to find the exact color combination on a sweatshirt on the school's website currently for sale and couldn't. It's probably old. I think I've seen it before.

Strange he's not wearing a wedding band? I don't wear mine when it's cold, because I've had it fall off and almost lost it. The shadows at Susan's thigh and behind her are from too much flash. Not sure what's wrong with his hand, I don't see the problem, but do know a four year old gets excited about a fire.

Chickie, I'd have posted these remarks the other week, but I posted a link you asked for and got a time out while the discussion was going on so I couldn't give my comments.

PickieChickie
03-16-2010, 12:49 PM
On one of the newsclips, I saw that an 'expert' stated that the controversial picture on Josh's website was not photoshopped. I have never heard of this expert and I do not agree with him at all. JMO

http://images.classmates.com/imgsvc//d?p=5106501
Mark Throckmorton
Taylorsville High School
Taylorsville, UTAH
Class of 1996
Biography: Life I'm working as a graphic designer for one of our local news stations.
Source: http://www.classmates.com/directory/public/memberprofile/list.htm?regId=216813471

Gin
03-16-2010, 12:53 PM
http://images.classmates.com/imgsvc//d?p=5106501
Mark Throckmorton
Taylorsville High School
Taylorsville, UTAH
Class of 1996
Biography: Life I'm working as a graphic designer for one of our local news stations.
Source: http://www.classmates.com/directory/public/memberprofile/list.htm?regId=216813471

Here's a link with his opinion. Worth a quick look, especially when compared with the input we have from Websleuth members.

http://mobile.abc4.com/content/news/state/story/GETTING-RESULTS-Is-photo-of-Powell-family-fake/nkRLbJnS2kG64yr-udJ8sw.cspx

PickieChickie--just realized this is essentially the same link you posted on another thread--it's just more in blog form. Didn't mean to repeat.

FWIW, I'm not an expert in photo shop at all. But, that photo looks like an absolute fake to me--it's not a normal photo in many ways.

Vegas Bride
03-16-2010, 01:13 PM
Someone wrote me saying a Mormon woman can't get to heaven unless her husband gives permission. Is this a true fact? If so, could that be part of the reason Susan wanted her marriage to work out so badly? Could fear of not making it to heaven have kept her in this dangerous union?

From what I understand, when they are married in the Mormon faith, the husband then gives his wife a secret name. When they die, he will call for her using that name and that is how she is able to reach their heaven.

VB

hollyblue
03-16-2010, 04:14 PM
Someone wrote me saying a Mormon woman can't get to heaven unless her husband gives permission. Is this a true fact? If so, could that be part of the reason Susan wanted her marriage to work out so badly? Could fear of not making it to heaven have kept her in this dangerous union?

Pickie, I'm not of the LDS religion, so can't answer the question to that. BUT, I will say I think Susan was very strong willed, a rebel of sorts, and a go getter. She would be someone that would not given in or give up on something she believed in -with ferocity. She would be a fighter to the end---especially for her children and no matter what that entailed. I think Josh "found out" something she was doing--WHAT, I don't know. It could be something really stupid (knowing his outlook of things) or something more serious.

PickieChickie
03-16-2010, 04:29 PM
I started a new thread - topic: "Powell Family Camp Fire Photo - FAKE or REAL?" I found a blog entry of Mark Throckmorton I posted there. Here:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4935397&posted=1#post4935397

His blog entry tells about how he was contacted to look at the Josh and Susan Powell family camping photo.

grayjay
03-16-2010, 07:01 PM
Someone wrote me saying a Mormon woman can't get to heaven unless her husband gives permission. Is this a true fact? If so, could that be part of the reason Susan wanted her marriage to work out so badly? Could fear of not making it to heaven have kept her in this dangerous union?
I have one friend who is going through a divorce who told me there's this hormone, oxytocin, that changes the brain as soon as the couple sees each other again, even after months of separation. I watched her go from resolved to jello in the space of an hour in a meeting with attorneys from both sides, and all the caring, bonding emotions came back even when this man had been caught on camera doing perverted and illegal things as well as making death threats. This woman is almost 60.

In another situation, my daughter tells me maybe she is the only one who understands the abuse and can help him to be more mature, and even though he has done very bad things to her, she still loves him and this decision will take time.

Oxytocin. It's plenty enough all alone to explain a lot of why someone will hang on in a hopeless situation. I've sure seen plenty of it. Plus social conditioning since the age of Barbies. Plus maybe knowing life after divorce isn't always a basket of peaches.

gwenabob
03-16-2010, 07:11 PM
Regarding the fake degree from University of Washington in Seattle:

I emailed the registrar asking if a Joshua Powell received a degree from that institution in the last 15 years and this is the response I got today:

2 have attended, neither have received degrees as of this date.

University of Washington
Office of the Registrar
209 Schmitz Hall
Seattle WA 98105
Fax 206-685-3660

PickieChickie
03-16-2010, 07:21 PM
Regarding the fake degree from University of Washington in Seattle:

I emailed the registrar asking if a Joshua Powell received a degree from that institution in the last 15 years and this is the response I got today:

2 have attended, neither have received degrees as of this date.

University of Washington
Office of the Registrar
209 Schmitz Hall
Seattle WA 98105
Fax 206-685-3660

Will you please forward that e-mail, including the e-mail you sent the registrar, to joshpowellbankruptcy@gmail.com please . I will NOT forward it to anyone I promise.

dovebar
03-16-2010, 07:28 PM
Another Mark Hacking similarity?

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 12:09 AM
I was unaware that this much detail had been released about her journal, could you give your source please?

You're right, Bartleby! :blushing:

I couldn't find any article that specifically says the three statements I repeated came directly from Susan's journal. The articles state only that the journals contained threats Joshua had made against Susan.

I must have assumed the other information was also contained in the journals because of the following reasons >>>

None of Susan's church friends have admitted to knowing about:

1. Susan's note of NO suicide - or never voluntarily leaving the boys.
2. Susan's separate bank account.
3. That Susan made plans of where to stay when she escaped from Josh.

Kiirsti implied that whoever was making the above statements was not telling the truth because Susan told her everything and Susan had never mentioned those things to her. Kiirsti said she had never heard ANY OF IT from Susan.

Therefore, I assumed that these stories were coming from Susan's coworker-friends at the Wells Fargo Bank -- and probably at least some of the statements are written within Susan's journals.

I find it puzzling that Susan reportedly said she was poised to return to Washington with the help of her parents -- when Mom and Dad Cox didn't seem to know anything about Susan perhaps leaving Josh and returning home.

The first article specifically mentions that Susan had plans of where to stay if she and the boys ran from Josh.

Note, Susan began marriage counseling in late summer which corresponds to her decision to fast, pray and stay in the marriage.

I have snipped text we've read many times and that doesn't relate to the marriage counseling or what Susan's friends knew.

(bolding & underlining is mine)

Susan Powell mulled divorce, plan to escape husband, friends say


By Brooke Adams
And Melinda Rogers

The Salt Lake Tribune

Updated: 12/22/2009 08:49:16 AM MST

A year before she disappeared, Susan Powell told a wide circle of friends she was preparing for the worst if she sought a divorce: that her husband might try to kidnap their sons and break her financially.

She said she had set up a separate bank account, arranged a place to stay if she decided to leave, and had informally written a will, according to friends who requested anonymity because they are not authorized by police to speak about the investigation. And Susan Powell made sure many knew of her preparations.

Susan Powell ultimately decided to stay and work on the relationship after fasting and praying.

<<snip>>

Friends said they told her the relationship wasn't healthy and confirm that they encouraged Susan Powell to leave her husband, whom they have described as controlling and emotionally abusive. A friend has said Susan Powell was at one point poised to return to Washington with the aid of her parents.

Joshua Powell, 33, was upset his wife was depositing money into an account he didn't have access to, said friends who added that they encouraged Susan to stand up to him. Family members have said the couple got marital counseling at Susan Powell's urging.

McLachlan said he did not know of any financial motive, such as a life insurance policy, that could give anyone an incentive to harm her.

<<snip>>

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_14042094?source=most_viewed

************************************************** *******************************************
[B]Searching for Susan Powell: Neighbor describes husband's odd behavior

<<snip>>
"Josh is really possessive about his things," Peterson said. "He treated everything as his possessions, including his wife and kids. He was very controlling."

Peterson is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and attends the same ward as the Powells. He and Susan Powell became close late this summer, when she asked him questions about marriage counseling, which Peterson and his wife previously had gone through.

On the day of the Powells' first meeting with the LDS Family Service counselor, she told Peterson about Joshua Powell's controlling behavior, and how he had become more possessive and obsessive since moving to Utah five years ago. She told Peterson she wanted her husband to become active in the LDS Church again and get his temple recommend by their anniversary in 2010, or she was seriously considering divorcing him.

"She went to the marriage counselor hoping it would save their marriage," Peterson said.

But Joshua's behavior showed a lack of caring for Susan's well-being, Peterson said.

<<snip>>

Joshua Powell also became increasingly erratic.

Powell once yelled at the Petersons for taking off their shoes and socks in his home, saying he'd have to spend all night cleaning the floors from the germs on their bare feet.

Susan Powell talked with Peterson about her first four marriage counseling sessions, but stopped after Peterson counseled her to leave her husband, whom he didn't see making any effort to improve their relationship.

"I told her she was a beautiful, talented woman who could be so much happier in a different situation," Peterson said. "I told her her husband was an energy suck and no one could stand to be around him."

Peterson said Susan Powell wanted to be more social and have friends over more often, but fellow ward members "couldn't stand" Joshua and would avoid him.

Even though Peterson and Susan Powell stopped talking about the Powell marriage, they stayed in touch. She sent him an e-mail thanking him for a backyard play set for her two boys, saying it would be great to have next summer to entertain the boys while she did yard work.

"This was not a woman who wanted to leave," Peterson said.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_14058397?source=most_viewed

************************************************** ******************************************


E-mails from Susan Powell told of marriage struggles

Friends of Susan Powell turn over correspondence from 2008 to W.V. police

By Pat Reavy

Deseret News
Published: Tuesday, Dec. 22, 2009 10:52 p.m. MST

WEST VALLEY CITY — E-mails sent last year by Susan Powell to friends told of marriage struggles between her and her husband to the point that she seemed to be in fear of him.

Several of her friends, who wished to remain anonymous, confirmed to the Deseret News that they had turned over to police e-mails that she sent them in June and July of 2008, the point when all friends agreed the Powells' marriage was at its worst.

One friend confirmed that in one of the e-mails, Susan Powell said she was afraid Josh Powell might kidnap her two boys, divorce her or worse.

The friend said Susan Powell had talked to her one day about something she had written and left in her desk at work.

"She had mentioned about writing something so that no one would ever think she committed suicide. She said it would be so her boys would know that she would never kill herself, because she would never leave her boys alone," the friend said.

"I didn't really know the context in which she was talking. I didn't even know what to say to that."

The friend said that was the only time Susan Powell brought up that topic.

West Valley police on Tuesday declined to talk about any potential evidence in the case. Other friends had reported earlier that a notebook Susan Powell kept in her desk at work at Wells Fargo was among the items seized by police.

The notebook, according to one source, detailed threats allegedly made about a year ago against her.

<<snip>>

For Susan Powell's friends and family, a red flag to them that foul play is likely involved is that she never would have left her two young boys, ages 2 and 4.

"She wouldn't even go visiting teaching for an hour without the boys," one friend said.

Susan Powell remained active in her LDS ward, even after her husband stopped going to church, according to friends. She was in the Relief Society and recently had accepted a new calling prior to her disappearance.

Friends say 2008 was a tough year for the Powells' marriage. They confirmed previous reports that Josh Powell was very controlling and that his wife had confided to a few friends that she was considering whether to leave him.

"She'd talk about how she was debating about how she should get divorced. But she wanted to give him a chance to change to how he was when they first met. She said if they tried counseling, she'd give him another chance," a friend said, but added, "I don't know if anything was really changing."

"She prayed about it. She felt like she should stay and keep working on the marriage," another friend said.

One friend said counseling was supposed to be once a week, but they didn't always keep to that schedule.

The Powells filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy in 2007. Money issues seemed to continue to be a point of contention between the couple in the years following.

But as far as friends could tell, Josh and Susan Powell were doing much better in 2009. And despite her e-mails, friends say she always tried to be optimistic.

"She's just very outgoing and bubbly. When she was having a hard time, you wouldn't know. She always tried to be positive and uplifting to others," a friend said.

But friends say she also started standing up more to her husband. She gained more confidence, they said.

"They knew how to push each other's buttons," a friend said.

Friends also noted that going on a spur of the moment camping trip wasn't necessarily out of the ordinary for Josh Powell. One friend recalled a time when Susan Powell had to get a ride home from work from another person because of a miscommunication with her husband. He decided one afternoon to take his two boys camping, the friend said. They returned about 3 a.m. because it got too cold, and the boys subsequently got sick.

"I don't know if he thinks things through sometimes," the friend said. "He just kind of picks up and decides to do it."

<<snip>>

As for whether Josh Powell had anything to do with his wife's disappearance, at least one friend didn't want to go there.

"At the very beginning, I was really hoping he had nothing to do with it, just because he has a different personality. The way he came across on the news wasn't good for people who didn't know him," the friend said. "At this point, I don't want to say anything. It's hard to talk about, anyway."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705353467/E-mails-from-Susan-Powell-told-of-marriage-struggles.html

************************************************** *****************************************

This seems to indicate it was Susan's COWORKERS who knew the most about Susan's marriage problems and FEAR of Josh -- and were the main informants to the media.

(b&u mine)

UPDATE: Susan's friends have been handing over notes and e-mails from as far back as last summer that portray a woman who feared her husband.

Susan had warned that Josh might kidnap their children, file for divorce or worse. She was setting up alternate bank accounts so he couldn't steal her money and had written an informal will, just in case.

Police have confiscated a journal she kept at work detailing the threats against her. And one of her coworkers said she once found a chilling note written by Susan that described how she'd never commit suicide. She had written it, says the coworker, so that her boys would know their mom would never desert them should she ever disappear.
http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2009/12/stockbroker_susan_powell_still.php

grayjay
03-17-2010, 12:51 AM
Kiirsti implied that whoever was making the above statements was not telling the truth because Susan told her everything and Susan had never mentioned those things to her. Kiirsti said she had never heard ANY OF IT from Susan.
http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2009/12/stockbroker_susan_powell_still.php
On reading this now in the rear-view mirror, I'm thinking of how Kiirsi has stayed friends with POI longer than most, and how Susan might have sensed or known that some of her girlfriend confidences could or did end up being shared with POI when she didn't want that to happen. Kiirsi might have loved Susan like a sister but in many ways she seems more a friend of the family than a friend to Susan in the sense of confidante.

gwenabob
03-17-2010, 01:14 AM
We have all seen Kiirsi's personality via Facebook--"don't say anything mean."

I somehow doubt she would have been a good listener to Susan's problems. Kiirsi is a simple woman, home-schooled all her life and I think she lacks a wide range of life experience and wisdom. Perhaps Susan put her toe in the water to test Kiirsi's reaction to marital problems the Powells were having, and felt Kiirsi was not the right person to confide in. I wouldn't confide in someone who refused to hear or speak ill of someone who was abusing me.

I think we all have a wide range of friends. Some friends you talk about certain things with, other friends you talk about different things. Apparently she felt more free to talk about her marriage difficulties with her work friends. Kiirsi lives in a land of unicorns, rainbows, and little tweeting birds happy in their nest. What would she know about the kind of problems Susan was dealing with? For this reason, I truly believe Kiirsi was in the dark.

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 01:18 AM
Regarding the fake degree from University of Washington in Seattle:

I emailed the registrar asking if a Joshua Powell received a degree from that institution in the last 15 years and this is the response I got today:

2 have attended, neither have received degrees as of this date.

University of Washington
Office of the Registrar
209 Schmitz Hall
Seattle WA 98105
Fax 206-685-3660

But OK5 said that Josh went to Washington STATE University -- NOT the University of Washington. They are totally different institutions.

Verifying a degree at the University of Washington can be done online -- but I think one must pay for verification at Washington State Univ.

Vegas Bride
03-17-2010, 01:23 AM
On reading this now in the rear-view mirror, I'm thinking of how Kiirsi has stayed friends with POI longer than most, and how Susan might have sensed or known that some of her girlfriend confidences could or did end up being shared with POI when she didn't want that to happen. Kiirsi might have loved Susan like a sister but in many ways she seems more a friend of the family than a friend to Susan in the sense of confidante.

I was thinking the same thing.
There are people I know who I would not be completely open with about everything. They would be quick to say we are friends, but I am a private person in many ways and have learned that with certain people I don't open up with so much. Some people like to talk and before you know it the whole neighborhood knows your business. I think it's very telling that Susan was talking to her neighbor about the marriage councelling rather than to Kirsi, I think Susan knew who she could really talk to about sensitve manners and who she couldn't.

VB

gwenabob
03-17-2010, 01:33 AM
But OK5 said that Josh went to Washington STATE University -- NOT the University of Washington. They are totally different institutions.

Verifying a degree at the University of Washington can be done online -- but I think one must pay for verification at Washington State Univ.

The problem is there is no Washington State University in Seattle. Only the University of Washington. So what she said is in error one way or the other. Personally, I think it would be easier to mix up WSU over U of W before I would confuse which city it was in. For that reason, I am thinking it was probably U of W she meant to say. I suspect he attended, but did not finish.

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 01:52 AM
We have all seen Kiirsi's personality via Facebook--"don't say anything mean."

I somehow doubt she would have been a good listener to Susan's problems. Kiirsi is a simple woman, home-schooled all her life and I think she lacks a wide range of life experience and wisdom. Perhaps Susan put her toe in the water to test Kiirsi's reaction to marital problems the Powells were having, and felt Kiirsi was not the right person to confide in. I wouldn't confide in someone who refused to hear or speak ill of someone who was abusing me.

I think we all have a wide range of friends. Some friends you talk about certain things with, other friends you talk about different things. Apparently she felt more free to talk about her marriage difficulties with her work friends. Kiirsi lives in a land of unicorns, rainbows, and little tweeting birds happy in their nest. What would she know about the kind of problems Susan was dealing with? For this reason, I truly believe Kiirsi was in the dark.


I am not stating anything *mean.* I am stating the TRUTH - with Kiirsti's OWN WORDS as published on several different Sites. :banghead:


Susan Powell's best friend says recent reports could be damaging to investigation

Last Update: 12/24/2009 8:11 am


Susan Powell's best friend talks exclusively with ABC4 tonight, saying the information from "anonymous leaks" to local publications may be hurting the police investigation.

Kiirsi Hellewell says she's questioning why these so called sources are going to local news outlets instead of the police. Kiirsi says she's skeptical about some of the recent revelations printed in local publications. She says Susan told her "pretty much everything". She's worried the recent leaks might be hindering the work of the police.

Hellewell says, “I'm just surprised by some of the things that came out this week because it's not anything she's ever told me before, and she pretty much told me everything.” She adds that she doesn't know who these “anonymous sources” are, but she encourages anyone with fact-based valuable information to go straight to the police. Hellewell says, “A lot of us, even though we really want to help, it's really not helping. It's hurting more by talking about all these details that really should be kept between the police.”

Hellewell says there are a couple items she found especially shocking. Local reports stated Susan was “afraid Josh Powell might kidnap her two boys… divorce her or worse." Hellewell says Susan never told her that.
She also said she had never heard of any sort of will with "writing something so that no one would ever think she committed suicide," or stating "it would be so her boys would know that she would never kill herself, because she would never leave her boys alone."

Susan's best friend told us she has complete faith in the police and wants to respect their work. Hellewell says, “They know so many things that they're not sharing with us, and they can't, because they're investigating it.”

She told us she hopes the focus stays on bringing Susan back home to her two children because she says Susan's oldest son is starting to miss his mommy. Hellewell says, “I know that he doesn't understand why she's gone, somebody whose always been there for him, for every step of his life.”

Susan's family put out a press release today asking those who want to help to go out and do an act of service over the holidays, in the name of Susan. They say Susan was a person of service and they hope this will help to honor her.

http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/Susan-Powells-best-friend-says-recent-reports/MBlD-1qZiU6rVNfZLj874A.cspx

gwenabob
03-17-2010, 01:57 AM
I am not stating anything *mean.* I am stating the TRUTH - with Kiirsti's OWN WORDS as published on several different Sites. :banghead:


Susan Powell's best friend says recent reports could be damaging to investigation



I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I meant that "don't say anything mean" is Kiirsi's take on life in general. Because of that, Susan felt she couldn't divulge to Kiirsi the things that were going on with Josh. Kiirsi didn't want to hear it because she didn't have the capacity to fully understand it due to her upbringing and naivete. I think you and I agree on this issue in general.

crocus
03-17-2010, 02:03 AM
We have all seen Kiirsi's personality via Facebook--"don't say anything mean."

I somehow doubt she would have been a good listener to Susan's problems. Kiirsi is a simple woman, home-schooled all her life and I think she lacks a wide range of life experience and wisdom. Perhaps Susan put her toe in the water to test Kiirsi's reaction to marital problems the Powells were having, and felt Kiirsi was not the right person to confide in. I wouldn't confide in someone who refused to hear or speak ill of someone who was abusing me.

I think we all have a wide range of friends. Some friends you talk about certain things with, other friends you talk about different things. Apparently she felt more free to talk about her marriage difficulties with her work friends. Kiirsi lives in a land of unicorns, rainbows, and little tweeting birds happy in their nest. What would she know about the kind of problems Susan was dealing with? For this reason, I truly believe Kiirsi was in the dark.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Subservient, to an extent, is the term that comes to my mind about Kirsii and her "way" in life. I mean absolutely no disrespect with this.........but rather maybe a speculation from an outsider of how maybe this family operates under the LDS spectrum. It reminds me of a way of life from generations ago.

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 02:05 AM
The problem is there is no Washington State University in Seattle. Only the University of Washington. So what she said is in error one way or the other. Personally, I think it would be easier to mix up WSU over U of W before I would confuse which city it was in. For that reason, I am thinking it was probably U of W she meant to say. I suspect he attended, but did not finish.

Michael Powell DID attend Washington State ... but graduated from the University of Washington after an additional year and a half of classes.

I think there's a good chance Alina attended Washington State too. She lived in the Spokane area for a time - as did Michael during 2003-2005.

Did you check to see if there's an auxiliary branch of Washington State Univ. in the Seattle area?

If the younger Powells attended Washington State it's possible that Josh did too.

I agree with you though. I don't think Josh has a degree from anywhere.

gwenabob
03-17-2010, 02:09 AM
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Subservient, to an extent, is the term that comes to my mind about Kirsii and her "way" in life. I mean absolutely no disrespect with this.........but rather maybe a speculation from an outsider of how maybe this family operates under the LDS spectrum. It reminds me of a way of life from generations ago.

Mmmm, I don't get the idea Kiirsi is "subservient." I think she is intelligent, talented and has a lot of initiative. I doubt she would bow down to any man simply because she is a woman. I do think she has lived a very sheltered life, however, and just doesn't have a lot of experience dealing with domestic abuse. I suspect it is just an abstract concept to her. JMO

gwenabob
03-17-2010, 02:11 AM
Michael Powell DID attend Washington State ... but graduated from the University of Washington after an additional year and a half of classes.

I think there's a good chance Alina attended Washington State too. She lived in the Spokane area for a time - as did Michael during 2003-2005.

Did you check to see if there's an auxiliary branch of Washington State Univ. in the Seattle area?

If the younger Powells attended Washington State it's possible that Josh did too.

I agree with you though. I don't think Josh has a degree from anywhere.

I did check. The main campus is in Pullman, with extensions in Spokane, Tri-Cities, and Vancouver. None in Seattle. So, I just really don't know what to make of this information. Regardless, we agree that any degree talk is most likely bunk. Also, The registrar did say that there were two different Joshua Powells who did attend U of W.

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 02:16 AM
I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I meant that "don't say anything mean" is Kiirsi's take on life in general. Because of that, Susan felt she couldn't divulge to Kiirsi the things that were going on with Josh. Kiirsi didn't want to hear it because she didn't have the capacity to fully understand it due to her upbringing and naivete. I think you and I agree on this issue in general.

I didn't realize Kiirsti was THAT naive. Doesn't she have a college education? I thought I read that she met John in college in the Midwest, IIRC. We certainly do agree that Susan most certainly did not tell Kiirsti "most everything."

gwenabob
03-17-2010, 02:25 AM
I didn't realize Kiirsti was THAT naive. Doesn't she have a college education? I thought I read that she met John in college in the Midwest, IIRC. We certainly do agree that Susan most certainly did not tell Kiirsti "most everything."

I believe she does have a college degree. From which college, I have no idea. What degree does she have? No idea. Early childhood education? Home economics? Family science? Just guesses, and I could be wildly off. But I just wanted to point out that a "college degree" does not necessarily make one "worldly." JMO

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 02:34 AM
I did check. The main campus is in Pullman, with extensions in Spokane, Tri-Cities, and Vancouver. None in Seattle. So, I just really don't know what to make of this information. Regardless, we agree that any degree talk is most likely bunk. Also, The registrar did say that there were two different Joshua Powells who did attend U of W.

Josh sure is the huge BS'r, isn't he? I don't know how he could have the unmitigated gall to claim his high honors academic fraternity PLUS graduating magna cum laude. That's about as good as it gets!

Just think of all the crap he's apparently gotten away with. He should have been jailed for his fraudulent bankruptcy claims, too. I just hope his luck has run out big-time - so Susan and the Coxs will have some justice.

Joshua's middle name is Steven, BTW -- in case that would help differentiate him from the other Joshua Powell

gwenabob
03-17-2010, 02:39 AM
I have sisters-in-law who are like Kiirsi in some ways. They are intelligent, capable, talented women. They all went to college, but they didn't all finish. They have lots going for them, but like Kiirsi, their lives revolve completely around their families and church. They don't read the paper. They only read "clean" romance books because that's what their mother read. They lead very sheltered, innocent lives. I find them rather naive and a little boring, but they are extremely wonderful women. They are the first to show up with a meal or babysitting for someone in need. They have tremendous faith and it shows in every way. They are strong in many ways, and certainly not "subservient" to their husbands, but they show respect for their husbands and their husbands respect them. They are true salt-of-the-earth kind of people, but the last women I would go to if I were being abused. Not because they wouldn't care, but because they have never experienced it and have not experienced very much of what is going on beyond their home and church. They have never been abused, nor did they grow up in an abusive home. They just wouldn't get it. It would be like asking for sex advice from a nun. Pointless.

gwenabob
03-17-2010, 02:42 AM
Josh sure is the huge BS'r, isn't he? I don't know how he could have the unmitigated gall to claim his high honors academic fraternity PLUS graduating magna cum laude. That's about as good as it gets!

Just think of all the crap he's apparently gotten away with. He should have been jailed for his fraudulent bankruptcy claims, too. I just hope his luck has run out big-time - so Susan and the Coxs will have some justice.

Joshua's middle name is Steven, BTW -- in case that would help differentiate him from the other Joshua Powell

Like Mark Hacking, there are two different Joshes. The one that is, and the one he wishes he were.

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 02:50 AM
I believe she does have a college degree. From which college, I have no idea. What degree does she have? No idea. Early childhood education? Home economics? Family science? Just guesses, and I could be wildly off. But I just wanted to point out that a "college degree" does not necessarily make one "worldly." JMO

I agree that a degree does not make one worldly -- nor necessarily smart. But if she was homeschooled all her life at least she would have been more exposed to *real life* during her college years.

I don't know what type of degree Kiirsti has -- of IF she has one, for sure. Home ec or early childhood education are excellent guesses. :)

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 02:52 AM
Like Mark Hacking, there are two different Joshes. The one that is, and the one he wishes he were.

Boy, aint that the truth! :loser:

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 02:59 AM
I have sisters-in-law who are like Kiirsi in some ways. They are intelligent, capable, talented women. They all went to college, but they didn't all finish. They have lots going for them, but like Kiirsi, their lives revolve completely around their families and church. They don't read the paper. They only read "clean" romance books because that's what their mother read. They lead very sheltered, innocent lives. I find them rather naive and a little boring, but they are extremely wonderful women. They are the first to show up with a meal or babysitting for someone in need. They have tremendous faith and it shows in every way. They are strong in many ways, and certainly not "subservient" to their husbands, but they show respect for their husbands and their husbands respect them. They are true salt-of-the-earth kind of people, but the last women I would go to if I were being abused. Not because they wouldn't care, but because they have never experienced it and have not experienced very much of what is going on beyond their home and church. They have never been abused, nor did they grow up in an abusive home. They just wouldn't get it. It would be like asking for sex advice from a nun. Pointless.

I totally understand what you're saying. I've met a few of those kind of women -- though mighty few. You can't help but love them. They are genuinely kind, generous and warmhearted; but I would feel terrible burdening them with really bad problems.

grayjay
03-17-2010, 09:33 AM
I have sisters-in-law who are like Kiirsi in some ways. They are intelligent, capable, talented women. They all went to college, but they didn't all finish. They have lots going for them, but like Kiirsi, their lives revolve completely around their families and church. They don't read the paper. They only read "clean" romance books because that's what their mother read. They lead very sheltered, innocent lives. I find them rather naive and a little boring, but they are extremely wonderful women. They are the first to show up with a meal or babysitting for someone in need. They have tremendous faith and it shows in every way. They are strong in many ways, and certainly not "subservient" to their husbands, but they show respect for their husbands and their husbands respect them. They are true salt-of-the-earth kind of people, but the last women I would go to if I were being abused. Not because they wouldn't care, but because they have never experienced it and have not experienced very much of what is going on beyond their home and church. They have never been abused, nor did they grow up in an abusive home. They just wouldn't get it. It would be like asking for sex advice from a nun. Pointless.


I totally understand what you're saying. I've met a few of those kind of women -- though mighty few. You can't help but love them. They are genuinely kind, generous and warmhearted; but I would feel terrible burdening them with really bad problems.

There's one more thing that seems to come out now, too. These people are more controlling with FaceBook because it's not easy to keep the world of complexity and bad things at bay. Plus they're more judgmental than they realize because they're trying so hard to stay clean and keep themselves above the grittiness of life.

A long time ago, I remember thinking about divorce at a time when it was totally not OK with those in my circle of friends. It was failure and disaster, and everything is supposed to work out because the dresses are white and the wedding cake is white, and the mate is highly respected and graduated phi beta kappa from the ivy league school. A quiet, gentle and good person.

I remember the first mentor who sensed the torment in my expression and so carefully and quietly said that divorce can sometimes be a needed thing. A needed thing! What an interesting word, but apt of the culture and the time and so perceptive of my own state of mind. I can see this happening with Susan. My life mentor was someone I met at work.

dovebar
03-17-2010, 02:16 PM
I agree that a degree does not make one worldly -- nor necessarily smart. But if she was homeschooled all her life at least she would have been more exposed to *real life* during her college years.

I don't know what type of degree Kiirsti has -- of IF she has one, for sure. Home ec or early childhood education are excellent guesses. :)

Even if she went to a secular college, lots of fundamentalist Baptist or other Protestant kids, Muslims, conservative Catholics go to secular colleges but manage to keep to a certain circle of friends. By choosing certain majors, as you point out, they can restrict the classes they take, and frat parties are optional, not required. Similarly, many "highly educated" Mormons with graduate degrees from big, important schools in the East manage to have little interaction outside of their wife and church friends.

It's not surprising to me at all that Susan, like all of us, had a sense about who she could tell certain things to. We shouldn't forget that some of the things coming out were witnessed, not just told. It must be painful for Kiirsti to realize that her close friend could not trust her with the darkest goings on of her marriage - and therefore sort of insulting. If you're the "best friend," the knowledge that there was a lot you didn't know is hard to process, and you might decide not to process it but to deny it. That would just be your coping strategy.

PickieChickie
03-17-2010, 02:39 PM
I believe she does have a college degree. From which college, I have no idea. What degree does she have? No idea. Early childhood education? Home economics? Family science? Just guesses, and I could be wildly off. But I just wanted to point out that a "college degree" does not necessarily make one "worldly." JMO

The dark side of the Search for Susan Powell - by Kirsii Hellewell
About me: I’m 34 years old, originally from northern Wisconsin, a beautiful land covered in deep green forests and thousands of lakes and rivers.

I’m the oldest of 7 kids. I was homeschooled (except for one semester of high school when I attended full-time so I could take driver’s training) until college, which I attended in Utah. I graduated from LDS Business College (LDSBC) with an Associate of Science degree, transferred to BYU, and graduated with honors with a Bachelor of Arts in English.

John and I moved into our current home in West Valley in 2003. Since we had both recently finished college and had 3 small kids, we were excited to make new friends and meet people. But most young people in our area were still in school and working and too busy to have time for friends. In the spring of 2004, Josh and Susan Powell bought a house in our neighborhood and came to church. Their first Sunday at church we introduced ourselves and told them we’d love to have them over sometime to get to know them. They said “Sure, that sounds great!”
http://crosscountryadventures.wordpress.com/2009/12/28/the-dark-side-of-the-search-for-susan/

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 03:41 PM
There's one more thing that seems to come out now, too. These people are more controlling with FaceBook because it's not easy to keep the world of complexity and bad things at bay. Plus they're more judgmental than they realize because they're trying so hard to stay clean and keep themselves above the grittiness of life.

A long time ago, I remember thinking about divorce at a time when it was totally not OK with those in my circle of friends. It was failure and disaster, and everything is supposed to work out because the dresses are white and the wedding cake is white, and the mate is highly respected and graduated phi beta kappa from the ivy league school. A quiet, gentle and good person.

I remember the first mentor who sensed the torment in my expression and so carefully and quietly said that divorce can sometimes be a needed thing. A needed thing! What an interesting word, but apt of the culture and the time and so perceptive of my own state of mind. I can see this happening with Susan. My life mentor was someone I met at work.
(bbm)

Exactly -- and 'at work' is no doubt where Susan would meet any mentors who would have an ounce of understanding and advice regarding the intolerance of her miserable marriage.

'Judgmental' is an excellent description of Susan's usual group of friends. I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but I've never seen fasting and prayer fix a narcissistic, mean bully yet!

DomCasual
03-17-2010, 03:49 PM
I believe she does have a college degree. From which college, I have no idea. What degree does she have? No idea. Early childhood education? Home economics? Family science? Just guesses, and I could be wildly off. But I just wanted to point out that a "college degree" does not necessarily make one "worldly." JMO

I could be mistaken. But I vaguely remember reading that she had a BA in English from BYU.

DomCasual
03-17-2010, 03:56 PM
No, I don't believe women should be expected to forgive husbands bad behavior over and over. Nope.

This reminds me of a co-worker of mine. She has two boys and her husband has had multiple affairs. She almost left him last year, but didn't. She felt that she needed to be more forgiving. She's Catholic. And a lawyer.

Let's face it. Men and women of all faiths screw up. Let's stop blaming any one faith for it. This is turning into another Grandma Mormon bashing session and if it doesn't stop, I will complain.

I am knowing I am probably making a mistake by getting sucked into this, but c'est la vie.

The problem I see is when people use anecdotal evidence to make far-reaching statements.

"I know a Mormon woman who is in a marriage with a scumbag; hence, all Mormon men are scumbags!"

I'm exaggerating, obviously; but not much.

At any level, it's ignorant and offensive.

Josh Powell isn't a good guy. Ironically, based on some of the statements made about Mormon gender roles in some of these threads, he isn't really an active Mormon. I know hundreds - probably thousands - of Mormon men. I don't know one that is like Josh Powell.

grayjay
03-17-2010, 04:09 PM
Thanks for your comment, Dom. It needs to be said. The same goes for the generalizations about women. It's fine that there are strong opinions, but not when they get disrespectful to others who are posting here.

JMO

SuziQ
03-17-2010, 04:11 PM
I agree that a degree does not make one worldly -- nor necessarily smart. But if she was homeschooled all her life at least she would have been more exposed to *real life* during her college years.

I don't know what type of degree Kiirsti has -- of IF she has one, for sure. Home ec or early childhood education are excellent guesses. :)

Not if she went to BYU. I personally know this. It's a great school and the students there are fantastic....but it's not the typical college campus. Not too many colleges have an honor code that regulates behavior off campus. I know many a parent who sent their daughters there in an effort to keep them innocent. Oh sure stuff goes on, but if the school gets wind of it you are outta there. I've personally seen that too. Their off campus housing is strictly regulated as well. In many cases the rules are more strict than what they had living at home with mom and dad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_University_Honor_Code

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 04:16 PM
The dark side of the Search for Susan Powell - by Kirsii Hellewell
About me: I’m 34 years old, originally from northern Wisconsin, a beautiful land covered in deep green forests and thousands of lakes and rivers.

I’m the oldest of 7 kids. I was homeschooled (except for one semester of high school when I attended full-time so I could take driver’s training) until college, which I attended in Utah. I graduated from LDS Business College (LDSBC) with an Associate of Science degree, transferred to BYU, and graduated with honors with a Bachelor of Arts in English.

John and I moved into our current home in West Valley in 2003. Since we had both recently finished college and had 3 small kids, we were excited to make new friends and meet people. But most young people in our area were still in school and working and too busy to have time for friends. In the spring of 2004, Josh and Susan Powell bought a house in our neighborhood and came to church. Their first Sunday at church we introduced ourselves and told them we’d love to have them over sometime to get to know them. They said “Sure, that sounds great!”
http://crosscountryadventures.wordpress.com/2009/12/28/the-dark-side-of-the-search-for-susan/

Hmmm, I guess Kiirsti's college experiences wouldn't have introduced her to the extensive spectrum of the 'real world' after all.

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 04:29 PM
Not if she went to BYU. I personally know this. It's a great school and the students there are fantastic....but it's not the typical college campus. Not too many colleges have an honor code that regulates behavior off campus. I know many a parent who sent their daughters there in an effort to keep them innocent. Oh sure stuff goes on, but if the school gets wind of it you are outta there. I've personally seen that too. Their off campus housing is strictly regulated as well. In many cases the rules are more strict than what they had living at home with mom and dad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_University_Honor_Code

I totally agree, SuziQ. I didn't know that Kiirsti received both her A.S. and B.A. degrees from LDS institutions.

Besides, if she and John were both attending BYU with 3 small children, their typical college type experiences would have been EXTREMELY limited. Babies have a way of putting the kibosh on almost everything. ;)

DomCasual
03-17-2010, 04:37 PM
Not if she went to BYU. I personally know this. It's a great school and the students there are fantastic....but it's not the typical college campus. Not too many colleges have an honor code that regulates behavior off campus. I know many a parent who sent their daughters there in an effort to keep them innocent. Oh sure stuff goes on, but if the school gets wind of it you are outta there. I've personally seen that too. Their off campus housing is strictly regulated as well. In many cases the rules are more strict than what they had living at home with mom and dad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young_University_Honor_Code

Here's the thing about BYU, Suzi. It is a unique college experience. It is sheltered. But that being said, I hope my son gets the grades in high school to be able to go there (it's gotten to be really difficult to get in). In my opinion, it's a great school, and a great college experience.

You will be thrown out if you "party." You will be thrown out if you have non-married sex (although a lot of kids there still do). Yet, my years at BYU were some of the best years of my life. I'm glad I learned there that I didn't need some of those things to be happy. It was a great lesson I've drawn on in other phases of my adult life.

I used to have this thing about living in Utah. I was raised outside the LDS Church in Denver. I always thought that I'd never be interested in raising my kids in Utah. I almost got divorced, rather than living here - but that's a whole different story. (In the end, I made a HUGE concession for my wife - as a controlling, Mormon husband, it almost caused my head to pop right off my torso. :)) I always just thought that I'd want my kids to be outside a sheltered environment. In some ways, I still think that - at least in theory. In practice, it's a different story.

Living here now, I have changed a little. I see nephews and nieces that live elsewhere, and I am saddened by what I see them have to face at school. Early teens are in such a precarious spot - they're old enough to make life-altering decisions; but too young to understand the repercussions of said decisions. I don't want my kids living in a box. But at the same time, I don't see anything positive about my young nephews and nieces facing the things they constantly seem to face in places less sheltered than Utah. Life is long, and they'll have to make those decisions eventually. When they're kids, I want the blinders of their innocence to be removed incrementally. I think a lot of kids have those blinders taken off too early and too fast. It's not that kids here don't face some of the same things they might face elsewhere. But generally speaking, there does seem to be a greater prevalence of old-fashioned values here.

Anyway, that's a tangent. But it's something I've thought about ad nauseum as an adult.

gwenabob
03-17-2010, 04:45 PM
I totally agree, SuziQ. I didn't know that Kiirsti received both her A.S. and B.A. degrees from LDS institutions.

Besides, if she and John were both attending BYU with 3 small children, their typical college type experiences would have been EXTREMELY limited. Babies have a way of putting the kibosh on almost everything. ;)

I want to make clear that I have nothing against Kiirsi. I am sure she is a talented, intelligent woman, a wonderful mother and wife and daughter and sister. I just want people to understand the kind of world she comes from. It is a very innocent place that probably does not understand the kind of pain and suffering Susan was going through.

Susan grew vegetables to feed the family. Among the Mormons, it is in no way unusual to have a garden. The church has recommended it for decades. No one would think twice about a mom gardening for the health of her family. Josh's sister knew why, but it wouldn't necessarily raise a red flag to anyone else.

Susan rode her bike to work. Some of her friends asked her about it, but she waived it off and said she needed the exercise. Lots of people ride bikes these days. Portland, where I live, is the bike capital and all hip young people are doing it. That alone would not waive a red flag.

There are lots of other examples. One person might have seen one thing. Another a different thing. It wasn't until they all put their stories together that it started to form a complete picture. It didn't help that Josh was obviously pressuring Susan not to talk about things with her friends and family.

This sort of scenario is not unusual in DV cases. It is very common for close friends and family not to understand the full extent of the abuse. The abuser manipulates it that way.

Kiirsi might have been a great friend to Susan, but because of the type of sheltered life she has led she may not have picked up on the signs. Susan may not have really understood herself what was happening to her until it was too late.

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 05:03 PM
Even if she went to a secular college, lots of fundamentalist Baptist or other Protestant kids, Muslims, conservative Catholics go to secular colleges but manage to keep to a certain circle of friends. By choosing certain majors, as you point out, they can restrict the classes they take, and frat parties are optional, not required. Similarly, many "highly educated" Mormons with graduate degrees from big, important schools in the East manage to have little interaction outside of their wife and church friends.

It's not surprising to me at all that Susan, like all of us, had a sense about who she could tell certain things to. We shouldn't forget that some of the things coming out were witnessed, not just told. It must be painful for Kiirsti to realize that her close friend could not trust her with the darkest goings on of her marriage - and therefore sort of insulting. If you're the "best friend," the knowledge that there was a lot you didn't know is hard to process, and you might decide not to process it but to deny it. That would just be your coping strategy.
(bbm)

Excellent point, dovebar!
It explains several things that have puzzled me to no end -- especially the defense/support that Josh still receives from some of Susan's friends. Though I think their denial is waaay more powerful than it logically should be, I can tolerate it better when I understand it's all about their coping-survival. Many of Susan's friends must be tormented with inner conflict. That's sad. :( _ For their own sake, I hope their denial lessens with time.

Excellent, informative post! ;)

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 05:37 PM
I want to make clear that I have nothing against Kiirsi. I am sure she is a talented, intelligent woman, a wonderful mother and wife and daughter and sister. I just want people to understand the kind of world she comes from. It is a very innocent place that probably does not understand the kind of pain and suffering Susan was going through.

Susan grew vegetables to feed the family. Among the Mormons, it is in no way unusual to have a garden. The church has recommended it for decades. No one would think twice about a mom gardening for the health of her family. Josh's sister knew why, but it wouldn't necessarily raise a red flag to anyone else.

Susan rode her bike to work. Some of her friends asked her about it, but she waived it off and said she needed the exercise. Lots of people ride bikes these days. Portland, where I live, is the bike capital and all hip young people are doing it. That alone would not waive a red flag.

There are lots of other examples. One person might have seen one thing. Another a different thing. It wasn't until they all put their stories together that it started to form a complete picture. It didn't help that Josh was obviously pressuring Susan not to talk about things with her friends and family.

This sort of scenario is not unusual in DV cases. It is very common for close friends and family not to understand the full extent of the abuse. The abuser manipulates it that way.

Kiirsi might have been a great friend to Susan, but because of the type of sheltered life she has led she may not have picked up on the signs. Susan may not have really understood herself what was happening to her until it was too late.
(bbm)

Hey gwenabob, you don't have to convince me! I have never once thought you had anything against Kiirsti -- or didn't believe she was an intelligent, wonderful woman. I appreciate knowing more about Kiirsti's educational background and lifestyle. It helps me to better understand what was at first a totally mystifying and frustrating set of statements, actions and inactions.

I cannot imagine anyone would think you were speaking negatively of Kiirsti. You simply stated some truthful facts that were not at all disparaging.

Bartleby
03-17-2010, 06:04 PM
(bbm)

Hey gwenabob, you don't have to convince me! I have never once thought you had anything against Kiirsti -- or didn't believe she was an intelligent, wonderful woman. I appreciate knowing more about Kiirsti's educational background and lifestyle. It helps me to better understand what was at first a totally mystifying and frustrating set of statements, actions and inactions.

I cannot imagine anyone would think you were speaking negatively of Kiirsti. You simply stated some truthful facts that were not at all disparaging.

Kiirsi, not Kiirsti.

dovebar
03-17-2010, 06:08 PM
Susan grew vegetables to feed the family. Among the Mormons, it is in no way unusual to have a garden. The church has recommended it for decades. No one would think twice about a mom gardening for the health of her family. Josh's sister knew why, but it wouldn't necessarily raise a red flag to anyone else.

Susan rode her bike to work. Some of her friends asked her about it, but she waived it off and said she needed the exercise. Lots of people ride bikes these days. Portland, where I live, is the bike capital and all hip young people are doing it. That alone would not waive a red flag.

There are lots of other examples. One person might have seen one thing. Another a different thing. It wasn't until they all put their stories together that it started to form a complete picture. It didn't help that Josh was obviously pressuring Susan not to talk about things with her friends and family.

This sort of scenario is not unusual in DV cases. It is very common for close friends and family not to understand the full extent of the abuse. The abuser manipulates it that way.

Kiirsi might have been a great friend to Susan, but because of the type of sheltered life she has led she may not have picked up on the signs. Susan may not have really understood herself what was happening to her until it was too late.

This is really profound, I think, and something we need to understand in order to avoid more Susan Powells. A lot of abuse is hiding in plain sight this way.

And definitely there is a strain of people not quite believing that someone could kill them. They believe enough to make a will and write a letter that they wouldn't commit suicide, but they also can't quite believe that something completely out of their control could happen.

Somehow we need to find better ways of convincing them otherwise. I'm not sure what that will take. It seems as though there are multiple psychological barriers that we need to find a way to address.

grayjay
03-17-2010, 06:37 PM
Yes, profound, dovebar, and I see that this might be like it is with drugs, that once one is addicted it may be too late. The bonding is strong, which is the intention of all involved in the industry of marriage, and it's sealed by nature with that oxytocin as well.

A woman who is at retirement age tells friends that her husband, a world respected research biochemist, gets very angry and tells her that he has a way to kill her that nobody can detect and he will get away with, and she stays in that home and they fight about his philandering for another year? I think we're lucky that more bad things aren't happening, given this type of misplaced confidence.

What to do about it, I'm not sure.

GrandmaTo4
03-17-2010, 08:05 PM
Kiirsi, not Kiirsti.

Oh oh, I'm so sorry. :blushing: I think I have been misspelling her name every time I wrote it. Thanks Bartleby. I'll be sure to spell it correctly if I write it again.

DomCasual
03-17-2010, 08:07 PM
Did they know about THESE things? :confused: >>>>>>

How about Susan being forced to ride a bicycle 14 miles on a busy road back and forth to work?

How about Susan not being able to buy fruits and vegetables for her small growing boys?

How about Susan receiving a belligerent tongue-lashing from Josh -- for buying shoes for Charlie and Braden when their shoes were outgrown?

How about Josh undermining Susan's reasonable and proper discipline of the boys?

How about Josh attempting to bribe the boys to NOT go to church with Susan?

How about Josh making Susan and the boys WALK back and forth to church in subfreezing weather when the van was sitting in the garage unused?

How about yelling at Susan to "SHUT-UP" for no good reason, in front of their friends?

How about Josh refusing to allow Susan to have a set of car keys?

How about Josh refusing Susan the use the home computer?

How about Josh changing the pin number on the bank accounts so Susan couldn't have access -- even though it was Susan who earned the majority of the family's money -- and who earned ALL the money during plenty of their marriage?

How about the one time (at least) that Josh got PHYSICALLY ABUSIVE with Susan?

Those incidents did NOT come from the journals at Wells Fargo -- they came from Susan's friends and family from personally witnessing them or first hand information.

As far as I can tell, the only person who cared enough about Susan and had big enough cojones to advise her to kick selfish-abuser-Josh to the curb was Tim Peterson. He's the ONLY one of the bunch who has my total respect and admiration!

Perhaps if ALL the rest of them hadn't been so MALE-SUPPORTIVE Susan would be alive today! :mad:

So, with all due respect...

Let's say they did know at least some of those things. Let's say they did know the reason she was growing vegetables. They did know the reason she rode a bike to work. Let's say that they not only knew how controlling he was, but they even witnessed some of his behavior first-hand - maybe not anything physical, but the verbal abuse.

I'm not asking this rhetorically. I'm curious about what you, in that situation, would do. For people in that situation who have witnessed something like this with a friend, what would you suggest they do to help matters?

SuziQ
03-17-2010, 08:47 PM
Here's the thing about BYU, Suzi. It is a unique college experience. It is sheltered. But that being said, I hope my son gets the grades in high school to be able to go there (it's gotten to be really difficult to get in). In my opinion, it's a great school, and a great college experience.

You will be thrown out if you "party." You will be thrown out if you have non-married sex (although a lot of kids there still do). Yet, my years at BYU were some of the best years of my life. I'm glad I learned there that I didn't need some of those things to be happy. It was a great lesson I've drawn on in other phases of my adult life.

I used to have this thing about living in Utah. I was raised outside the LDS Church in Denver. I always thought that I'd never be interested in raising my kids in Utah. I almost got divorced, rather than living here - but that's a whole different story. (In the end, I made a HUGE concession for my wife - as a controlling, Mormon husband, it almost caused my head to pop right off my torso. :)) I always just thought that I'd want my kids to be outside a sheltered environment. In some ways, I still think that - at least in theory. In practice, it's a different story.

Living here now, I have changed a little. I see nephews and nieces that live elsewhere, and I am saddened by what I see them have to face at school. Early teens are in such a precarious spot - they're old enough to make life-altering decisions; but too young to understand the repercussions of said decisions. I don't want my kids living in a box. But at the same time, I don't see anything positive about my young nephews and nieces facing the things they constantly seem to face in places less sheltered than Utah. Life is long, and they'll have to make those decisions eventually. When they're kids, I want the blinders of their innocence to be removed incrementally. I think a lot of kids have those blinders taken off too early and too fast. It's not that kids here don't face some of the same things they might face elsewhere. But generally speaking, there does seem to be a greater prevalence of old-fashioned values here.

Anyway, that's a tangent. But it's something I've thought about ad nauseum as an adult.

It's the school I would like my kids to go to. They might actually get into the learning experience instead of partying that goes on at most colleges. I'm not LDS, but I am glad I raised my kids in Utah.

omegagal
03-17-2010, 10:24 PM
It appears this counselor was highly incompetent. Of course we do not know how much Susan told this TRAINED PROFESSIONAL, but if they had the proper education, they would have been able to recognize the RED FLAGS of domestic abuse Susan was forced to suffer through.

This counselor certainly advised Susan poorly. Rather than advise Susan to leave Josh, they encourage her to set goals/ultimatums for a man who was clearly demanding that he be the supreme master of his home to the point where his children had to wear shoes that were too small, Susan had to bike 14 miles round trip to work, etc.? GIVE ME A BREAK!

A lot of blame should be cast towards this counselor for the outcome of the Susan and Josh Powell union!
Many "Thanks" to you on this one... you have hit on a very important aspect of this case...

omegagal
03-17-2010, 10:33 PM
sigh. Pickie, no, that is complete balderdash!!!!!
Sorry that is NOT balderdash... the man has to bring the woman across the veil....

gwenabob
03-17-2010, 10:36 PM
Sorry that is NOT balderdash... the man has to bring the woman across the veil....

And if he can't someone else will. No woman would be denied her just reward because her husband didn't do right by her.

omegagal
03-17-2010, 10:46 PM
Regarding Susan and Josh Powell's counseling services

12 Reasons Why Couples Counseling is Not Recommended When Domestic Violence is Present:http://unrighteous-dominion.com/?p=105

gwenabob
03-17-2010, 10:56 PM
Regarding Susan and Josh Powell's counseling services

12 Reasons Why Couples Counseling is Not Recommended When Domestic Violence is Present:http://unrighteous-dominion.com/?p=105

I totally agree. How could an abused person feel free to talk about it with the abuser sitting right next to them? It defies logic.

omegagal
03-17-2010, 10:57 PM
And if he can't someone else will. No woman would be denied her just reward because her husband didn't do right by her.
If she was not worthy to have a husband someone else will:

LDS Apostle Erastus Snow preached the following on Sunday, Oct. 4, 1857:

Do the women, when they pray, remember their husbands?... Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? "What!—my husband to be my lord?" I ask, Can you get into the celestial kingdom without him? Have any of you been there? You will remember that you never got into the celestial kingdom [during the temple ceremony] without the aid of your husband. If you did, it was because your husband was away, and some one had to act proxy for him. No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 291)

gwenabob
03-17-2010, 11:00 PM
You will note that was written in 1857.

AlexisFresca
03-17-2010, 11:21 PM
Hmmm ... is 'Journal of Discourses' one of the books in the Book of Mormon? Another thing that comes to mind, is that in Christianity there is an endless debate of quoting OT scripture -vs- NT scripture to back up your debate topic at the time. So even if this was taught in 1857, would it still be applicable in the same way OT scripture is? Does that make sense?

As far as Susan and who she confided what in, I think its fair to say that we show different sides of ourselves to different people, the ones we know will accept certain things about us without judging, or like in the case of life experiences (Kiirsi and Susan) it stands to reason to confide in the person who seems to understand the best. I am actually closer to Mrs Outlaw than I am my own mom, in that I can talk to her about anything while with my mom I get lectures, unsolicited advice and so on. Depending on the persons or the problem, I will confide in some from various backgrounds (but can still relate) because different POV's are also interesting in someone thinking of something/perspective someone else hasn't. I think being open to different POV's can be beneficial if they are the right personalities. Does that make sense?

grayjay
03-18-2010, 12:13 AM
You will note that was written in 1857.
LOL.

A man we know (not mormon) says he shouldn't have to pay spousal support for the time since he and his wife separated, because his estranged wife has not been performing her wifely duties during this time. He says this at a table with their two female attorneys plus several other professionals involved in the settlement of their finances.

We decided to surf for the term, and learned that up until the end of the 1800's such a thing existed and the law was changed. As far as I know this document has to be considered as quaint as that concept.

Great grandma told us about a time when couples had to sleep with a board between them in the bed, too. She was a Methodist.

Oh, right. And should we bring up polygamy about now, too then? I think that's also long gone, except among a few backwards cults and it's illegal?

omegagal
03-18-2010, 10:23 PM
You will note that was written in 1857.

Yes and it was written by an Apostle.... the church doesn't exactly change what an Apostle says.... it would be bad business.... that's why these quotes are saved....

And the temple ceremony is still practiced every half hour at your local neighborhood temple... with the advent of the internet, it seems the temple ceremony is easy enough to find.

hollyblue
03-19-2010, 05:36 AM
So, with all due respect...

Let's say they did know at least some of those things. Let's say they did know the reason she was growing vegetables. They did know the reason she rode a bike to work. Let's say that they not only knew how controlling he was, but they even witnessed some of his behavior first-hand - maybe not anything physical, but the verbal abuse.

I'm not asking this rhetorically. I'm curious about what you, in that situation, would do. For people in that situation who have witnessed something like this with a friend, what would you suggest they do to help matters?

"If you don't take care of yourself, you can't/won't be able to take care of your children." I've told this to a friend--to help her see the light. My mother always told me "If you don't love yourself first, (respect) you can never truly love someone else."

grayjay
03-19-2010, 08:56 AM
"If you don't take care of yourself, you can't/won't be able to take care of your children." I've told this to a friend--to help her see the light. My mother always told me "If you don't love yourself first, (respect) you can never truly love someone else."

EXCELLENT! And the converse has been said to me, to help me evaluate if the person belongs in my life or not, "If they can't love themselves and show self respect they can't love you."

Myst
03-19-2010, 08:53 PM
I've been following along with this case, and wonder how far was their home from the Temple? I've read that Josh didn't always attend with Susan and the boys, and that he didn't let her use the van often if at all. So she and those little boys walked each time?

gwenabob
03-19-2010, 09:13 PM
I've been following along with this case, and wonder how far was their home from the Temple? I've read that Josh didn't always attend with Susan and the boys, and that he didn't let her use the van often if at all. So she and those little boys walked each time?

Susan and the boys would not be walking to the Temple on Sunday. Sunday services are held at a local chapel. It was a few blocks to church. But even a few blocks is too far with little ones in the snow. Josh had no business denying her use of the car. I have to wonder what lame excuse he gave her for needing it himself? And if he really did "need" it, why didn't he just give them a ride?

grayjay
03-19-2010, 09:21 PM
I've been following along with this case, and wonder how far was their home from the Temple? I've read that Josh didn't always attend with Susan and the boys, and that he didn't let her use the van often if at all. So she and those little boys walked each time?
Strange. This comment made me think of how they were already a bit estranged. It made me wonder if Susan was sleeping on the couch. :silenced:

Myst
03-19-2010, 10:12 PM
Susan and the boys would not be walking to the Temple on Sunday. Sunday services are held at a local chapel. It was a few blocks to church. But even a few blocks is too far with little ones in the snow. Josh had no business denying her use of the car. I have to wonder what lame excuse he gave her for needing it himself? And if he really did "need" it, why didn't he just give them a ride?

Gwenabob, thanks for explaining!

And yep, I think even a few blocks is too far to walk with little ones, especially in the snow. I'm amazed that Susan was able to put up with what she was able to for so long. And that's just the stuff we're reading about, Lord only knows what else went on in that home.

hollyblue
03-19-2010, 10:31 PM
Strange. This comment made me think of how they were already a bit estranged. It made me wonder if Susan was sleeping on the couch. :silenced:

Tim P stated they were living more or less as roommates....soooo....

PickieChickie
03-19-2010, 11:13 PM
Strange. This comment made me think of how they were already a bit estranged. It made me wonder if Susan was sleeping on the couch. :silenced:

If Susan was sleeping on the couch, the BIG WET SPOT on the living room carpet with the two box fans aimed at it discovered by law enforcement on December 7, 2009 when they broke into the Powell home makes more sense!

Perhaps Josh went into the living room to try to "get some" from his wife who was sleeping on the couch, hoping Susan was in the mood after he'd made her pancakes and eggs, covered her with a blanket when she mentioned she was chilled and "got the boys out of her hair" so she could take a nap by taking them sledding.

I believe Josh killed Susan while in a rage due to feeling rejected. IMO

dovebar
03-20-2010, 01:18 AM
I think she could have been poisoned and vomited onto the carpet that night.

The more I think about the similarities between Mark Hacking and JP, the more it seems likely that he simply drove somewhere and put her in a landfill or dumpster. Anyone who followed the Hacking case, as JP's father probably did, would see that Hacking almost got away with it.

He could have driven a body to a dumpster in Ogden or Provo, or even further away, anywhere he saw from cans at the curb that Monday was trash day, and it would have gone out the next morning. He would have had a time advantage that Hacking didn't have, so it would be difficult to figure out where among all the landfills in Utah, Idaho, and Nevada to search. Trash would have been dumped atop her at the time and ever since.

mysticrose
03-24-2010, 12:56 AM
Did any of you know that one of Josh's uncles is Commander of Forensics, State Police, Idaho ?

Link to where I found the info, comment section:

http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/Brent-Hunsaker-My-ride-to-the-west-desert-with/fkTWAxuCK0eg60RkyrnE6g.cspx?p=Comments

Link :

http://www.isp.idaho.gov/forensic/index.html

PickieChickie
03-24-2010, 01:00 AM
Did any of you know that one of Josh's uncles is Commander of Forensics, State Police, Idaho ?

Link to where I found the info, comment section:

http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/Brent-Hunsaker-My-ride-to-the-west-desert-with/fkTWAxuCK0eg60RkyrnE6g.cspx?p=Comments

Link :

http://www.isp.idaho.gov/forensic/index.html


http://www.isp.idaho.gov/forensic/pic_rpowell.jpg
Someone claims Ralph Powell is Steve Powell's younger brother and would be Josh Powell's uncle.
Link to Idaho State Police site with Ralph Powell's photo: http://www.isp.idaho.gov/forensic/index.html

hollyblue
03-24-2010, 01:23 AM
http://www.isp.idaho.gov/forensic/pic_rpowell.jpg
Someone claims Ralph Powell is Steve Powell's younger brother and would be Josh Powell's uncle.
Link to Idaho State Police site with Ralph Powell's photo: http://www.isp.idaho.gov/forensic/index.html

My guess would be 95% yea and 5% na, but this is not confirmation. Wonder if they got the news here and are just speculating as we are. Maybe the media will pick it up and confirm.

I truly believe Mr. Cox is walking a tightrope....we know what kind of people have his grandkids and Susan's boys in their hands. How unfair.

PickieChickie
03-26-2010, 04:59 PM
Has anyone saved the Powell family fire photo from http://susanpowell.org to their computer?

A commenter on the article about the http://susanpowell.org site suggested it wouldn't be wise to save any of the photos on the http://susanpowell.org site to our computers.

Has anyone been having trouble with their computer after saving photos from that site?

gwenabob
03-28-2010, 12:19 AM
Had a family party tonight. My in-laws from Puyallup were there. They are in the same stake as the Coxes, and he knows the Coxes pretty well. He doesn't know how they have held up so well.

I asked him if Josh was still attending church, and he said no, he didn't think he was. I would love to hear from the websleuth who attends the same ward and see if they can verify this.

My relative said everybody at church believes Josh is guilty. Everyone. Probably why he doesn't dare attend. Uncomfortable for everyone.

jmarple
03-28-2010, 12:34 AM
The disappearance of Susan Powell and her husband's involvement have struck a tender nerve with many of the Puyallup LDS community. Two years ago, another young mother of two boys(about the age of Susan's boys) was shot in the parking lot of an LDS church in Lehi, Utah. Her husband shot her on her 30th birthday in front of her mother. This girl was from the Puyallup area, as is her mother. Her parents now have custody of the boys. They also are friends of the Cox family. Josh is using the same attorney.

dovebar
03-28-2010, 12:42 AM
The disappearance of Susan Powell and her husband's involvement have struck a tender nerve with many of the Puyallup LDS community. Two years ago, another young mother of two boys(about the age of Susan's boys) was shot in the parking lot of an LDS church in Lehi, Utah. Her husband shot her on her 30th birthday in front of her mother. This girl was from the Puyallup area, as is her mother. Her parents now have custody of the boys. They also are friends of the Cox family. Josh is using the same attorney.

The same attorney as the guy who shot his wife?

How tremendously sad for everyone who knew these young women.

We need to do a much better job of helping young women know what to look for in dating. Control tendencies are visible early on, if only you know what to look for.

jmarple
03-28-2010, 12:51 AM
The same attorney as the guy who shot his wife?

How tremendously sad for everyone who knew these young women.

We need to do a much better job of helping young women know what to look for in dating. Control tendencies are visible early on, if only you know what to look for.

Yes, the same attorney as the guy who shot his wife. He eventually changed attorneys and plea bargained for a life sentence.

RubyRed
04-14-2010, 04:38 PM
I am starting to think without her remains, they are not going to be able to prosecute.
I feel if there was something in the wet spot tests would be back by now. So either there is nothing or too little evidence to prosecute.

PickieChickie
04-14-2010, 04:41 PM
I am starting to think without her remains, they are not going to be able to prosecute.
I feel if there was something in the wet spot tests would be back by now. So either there is nothing or too little evidence to prosecute.

Don't get discouraged. Suspects are rarely indicted when there is no body until a few years have passed.

izehnder
04-17-2010, 07:53 PM
Examiner.com article: Two coasts apart, touching the lives of people around the world: Haleigh Cummings and Susan Powell (http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m4d16-Two-coasts-apart-touching-the-lives-of-people-around-the-world-Haleigh-Cummings-and-Susan-Powell)

April 16, 2010 - (Slideshow) Two missing persons cases spanning two coasts have touched the hearts of people all over the world - the Susan Cox Powell case in Washington/Utah, and the Haleigh Cummings case in Florida.

Haleigh Cummings is the adorable 5-year old Florida girl who has been missing for over a year. Her father came home from the night-shift and his daughter was missing, allegedly taken from her bed while her new step-mother, Misty Croslin, slept. Croslin has flunked four polygraph tests and a voice stress test.

Susan Cox Powell is the 28-year old West Valley City, Utah mother of two young boys who went missing over four months ago. Her husband, Josh Powell, is the last person to see her and remains the only person of interest in what police call a missing person's case with suspicious criminal overtones. Josh left Utah two weeks after Susan went missing and is living in Puyallup, Washington, with his father, Steven Powell, several of his siblings, and his two young sons.

The world is waiting for answers in both cases... click here (http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m4d16-Two-coasts-apart-touching-the-lives-of-people-around-the-world-Haleigh-Cummings-and-Susan-Powell) for article.

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af351/SusanPowell-7/Missing%20Person%20Flier%202010/Susan%20and%20Haleigh/HaleighCummingsFamilyphoto2.jpg http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af351/SusanPowell-7/NicephotoofSusanFandFCropped.jpg

hollyblue
04-17-2010, 08:37 PM
Could Josh have picked someone up to help him when he was supposedly sledding? Even two hours of playing in the snow, late in the eveninng, will zonk children---maybe he drove around for awhile until the children fell asleep and then picked someone up. No one would know because of the garage. Was there any truth to SP being in the area shortly after her disappearance? It has never been mentioned exactly where he took them sledding....were there witnesses? I have never heard of this part of the investigation....being investigated.

RubyRed
04-18-2010, 02:22 PM
These Susan threads sure are slowing down.

:+:MrTT:+:
04-18-2010, 02:49 PM
These Susan threads sure are slowing down.

Now that i read he has moved out of the home in one of the above articles, i would get another search warrant and go back to the house with the dogs, and any spot they hit on i would tear it apart inch by inch.

RubyRed
04-18-2010, 03:01 PM
Now that i read he has moved out of the home in one of the above articles, i would get another search warrant and go back to the house with the dogs, and any spot they hit on i would tear it apart inch by inch.

Shouldn't that have been done at the start? I sure hope they went through that home. It is just like the rental car he got and It has been said LE did not know where he went with it. I hope LE is just saying that, because if they didn't follow him after that lame alibi, then that is a major screw up.

:+:MrTT:+:
04-18-2010, 03:24 PM
Shouldn't that have been done at the start? I sure hope they went through that home. It is just like the rental car he got and It has been said LE did not know where he went with it. I hope LE is just saying that, because if they didn't follow him after that lame alibi, then that is a major screw up.

yes, they should have, and maybe they did with the house, i just have not read about it.
To me it seems the camping trip, and the rental of the vehicle was to through LE off track, and have them go look in areas, where he knew she would not be.......But its all speculation on my part.

RubyRed
04-18-2010, 03:45 PM
yes, they should have, and maybe they did with the house, i just have not read about it.
To me it seems the camping trip, and the rental of the vehicle was to through LE off track, and have them go look in areas, where he knew she would not be.......But its all speculation on my part.



Yeah the famous S'more camping trip. I don't think he went anywhere near where he said. More than likely the opposite direction. I think he was caught off guard with LE being at the house. He didn't expect family to call them so soon.
I also think something was happening at the time the van alarm was heard. I think Susan pressed the panic button on the keys. Just my opinion .

diphi
04-18-2010, 08:02 PM
These Susan threads sure are slowing down.

I have very little to add to the conversation at this point. However, I check here EVERY day hoping for some news.

I have many questions that have been discussed here over and over. It all boils down to this one - Where in the world did he put her?

And maybe this one - When could/should you arrest someone on circumstantial evidence?

RubyRed
04-18-2010, 08:20 PM
I have very little to add to the conversation at this point. However, I check here EVERY day hoping for some news.

I have many questions that have been discussed here over and over. It all boils down to this one - Where in the world did he put her?

And maybe this one - When could/should you arrest someone on circumstantial evidence?

Given the weather that night, I think she is closer to home.

diphi
04-18-2010, 09:29 PM
Don't get discouraged. Suspects are rarely indicted when there is no body until a few years have passed.

And even when there is a body it can take several years to completely nail the killer.

It can be very frustrating for all, I'm sure.

izehnder
04-20-2010, 09:07 PM
Tiffany Tehan: Another young mom missing; can her family learn from Susan Powell’s case? (Video) (http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m4d20-Tiffany-Tehan-Another-young-mom-missing-can-her-family-learn-from-Susan-Powells-case-Video)

PHOTOS OF MALE COMPANION AND ATM VIDEO

April 20, 2010 - Another young mother, Tiffany Tehan, 31, is missing, this time in Ohio. Can her friends and family learn from the search for Susan Cox Powell? Click here (http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m4d20-Tiffany-Tehan-Another-young-mom-missing-can-her-family-learn-from-Susan-Powells-case-Video) for article.

RubyRed
04-20-2010, 10:21 PM
Tiffany Tehan: Another young mom missing; can her family learn from Susan Powell’s case? (Video) (http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m4d20-Tiffany-Tehan-Another-young-mom-missing-can-her-family-learn-from-Susan-Powells-case-Video)

PHOTOS OF MALE COMPANION AND ATM VIDEO

April 20, 2010 - Another young mother, Tiffany Tehan, 31, is missing, this time in Ohio. Can her friends and family learn from the search for Susan Cox Powell? Click here (http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m4d20-Tiffany-Tehan-Another-young-mom-missing-can-her-family-learn-from-Susan-Powells-case-Video) for article.


I really do not see any similarities in these two cases.

KaylynnCouture
04-22-2010, 12:59 PM
Praying for Susan. :rose:

gwenabob
04-22-2010, 05:03 PM
Tiffany Tehan: Another young mom missing; can her family learn from Susan Powell’s case? (Video) (http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m4d20-Tiffany-Tehan-Another-young-mom-missing-can-her-family-learn-from-Susan-Powells-case-Video)

PHOTOS OF MALE COMPANION AND ATM VIDEO

April 20, 2010 - Another young mother, Tiffany Tehan, 31, is missing, this time in Ohio. Can her friends and family learn from the search for Susan Cox Powell? Click here (http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-34328-Seattle-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m4d20-Tiffany-Tehan-Another-young-mom-missing-can-her-family-learn-from-Susan-Powells-case-Video) for article.


So, how much $ do you think Old Man Powell spent hiring Tiffany and her beau to run away to Miami? How long until people start claiming Susan "ran away just like Tiffany?" LOL.

snupy
04-23-2010, 07:54 AM
So, how much $ do you think Old Man Powell spent hiring Tiffany and her beau to run away to Miami? How long until people start claiming Susan "ran away just like Tiffany?" LOL.

I thought the same thing!!

hollyblue
04-23-2010, 11:19 AM
So, how much $ do you think Old Man Powell spent hiring Tiffany and her beau to run away to Miami? How long until people start claiming Susan "ran away just like Tiffany?" LOL.

She was also very committed to her church and family. Had a one year old little girl too. Just goes to show, again, this does happen. All through her thread, the friends said how devoted she was to her family, child and church. She would never "just leave" them. But it happens.

One thing did strike me "weirdly" in this case. The DH made a comment about not being mad at his wife. He made a remark how everyone has problems when trying to deal with "life". (paraphrasing) The way he said it, sounded just like JP in the beany interview. Just gave me the willies for a few seconds.

FrustratedoveSCPcase
04-23-2010, 12:29 PM
This case appears to be as cold as a Utah winter.

Using the Caylee Anthony case as a model, it seems that most of the damaging statements/lies (by the killer) were made during police questioning.

Perhaps it was because Casey wasn't yet lawyered up (wereas Josh already is), but all I've heard is that Josh has an "invitation" to come and talk to LE.

Why don't they bring him in for extended questioning, making the lawyer spend billable time with truth deflection?

With apparently so little forensic evidence (or they would have made an arrest by now), and little hope of finding a body in such a state that would yield any MORE physical evidence (it's in an abandoned mine of which there are 1000s in the SLC area), putting at least SOME pressure on the killer and the father (financial) is about all they have.

Obviously, they have detailed the father's movements (cell phone, pings, etc.) around that time period, as he was obviously the person w/Josh when the Channel 4 interviewed Josh outside the house took place ("I gotta go get my boys"). As he's brushing past the reporter and they ask "Are you his father?" he says "Friend" and goes on into the house.

While Casey Anthony's lies hung herself (needed no help from mom and dad), I think it will be the combination of Josh and father's lies about their activities and movements during this time period that will provide the answers here.

RubyRed
04-23-2010, 12:40 PM
This case appears to be as cold as a Utah winter.

Using the Caylee Anthony case as a model, it seems that most of the damaging statements/lies (by the killer) were made during police questioning.

Perhaps it was because Casey wasn't yet lawyered up (wereas Josh already is), but all I've heard is that Josh has an "invitation" to come and talk to LE.

Why don't they bring him in for extended questioning, making the lawyer spend billable time with truth deflection?

With apparently so little forensic evidence (or they would have made an arrest by now), and little hope of finding a body in such a state that would yield any MORE physical evidence (it's in an abandoned mine of which there are 1000s in the SLC area), putting at least SOME pressure on the killer and the father (financial) is about all they have.

Obviously, they have detailed the father's movements (cell phone, pings, etc.) around that time period, as he was obviously the person w/Josh when the Channel 4 interviewed Josh outside the house took place ("I gotta go get my boys"). As he's brushing past the reporter and they ask "Are you his father?" he says "Friend" and goes on into the house.

While Casey Anthony's lies hung herself (needed no help from mom and dad), I think it will be the combination of Josh and father's lies about their activities and movements during this time period that will provide the answers here.

Welcome. Are you talking about the guy in the red coat?

FrustratedoveSCPcase
04-23-2010, 12:47 PM
Thanks; long-time listener, first-time caller.

Yes, guy in the red coat.

RubyRed
04-23-2010, 12:52 PM
I thought he was identified as someone else. I have read so much so maybe I am mistaken. IIRC it was OK5 who said who it was. Does anyone else remember this?

FrustratedoveSCPcase
04-23-2010, 01:01 PM
Seriously? I could be mistaken, but that warbly voice sounds like you-know-who, and it appears to be not a young man, and not wanting to make face/eye contact.

But, I'm terrible at searching these threads, so it may have already been addressed?

FrustratedoveSCPcase
04-23-2010, 01:07 PM
Actually, I'm prevented from text seaching the threads/forums (not sure why), so there is no way I can find out if someone already knows this. So I guess it's just my opinion! Just like everyone else's!

grayjay
04-23-2010, 05:17 PM
Welcome. Are you talking about the guy in the red coat?

I'm pretty sure he was there from the church and that OK5 gave us his name. His name might have started with brother. OK. Laugh. That's my failing good memory on something that seemed important until she gave him a name. :D Maybe search through OK5's posts.

RubyRed
04-23-2010, 05:33 PM
Actually, I'm prevented from text seaching the threads/forums (not sure why), so there is no way I can find out if someone already knows this. So I guess it's just my opinion! Just like everyone else's!


I'm pretty sure he was there from the church and that OK5 gave us his name. His name might have started with brother. OK. Laugh. That's my failing good memory on something that seemed important until she gave him a name. :D Maybe search through OK5's posts.

Here is the post on the "red coat" guy.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - SL Tribune Article with Steven P. and Susan website created by Josh

Bartleby
04-24-2010, 10:53 AM
I really do not see any similarities in these two cases.

Young mother goes missing, leaving child/children behind. Family/friends say this is not normal behaviour.

Last person known to see her named as a person of interest, but not as a suspect, because there is not yet any proof that a crime has been committed.

Missing woman was involved in a church.

Missing woman was attending some form of marriage class or guidance through that church.

Family/friends create thousands of fliers to try to get missing woman's name and face widely recognised.

You do not see these similarities? :waitasec:

mysticrose
04-24-2010, 11:04 AM
I just can't believe how quiet this case is.
I do not believe Susan is in the area Josh states he was camping, I am going to try and find the video where he is talking about where he went camping. He starts to say one thing and then corrects himself....
brb

ETA: At about 5:25 in this video is where he starts talking about where he went w/the kids. Watch his face as he talks about it, first he states he went south and then states "we actually just went to the Pony Express" it is apparent he has no idea about this area as the reporter asks about any camoing sites in the area...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCXDpQEfZm8

RubyRed
04-24-2010, 11:26 AM
Young mother goes missing, leaving child/children behind. Family/friends say this is not normal behaviour.

Last person known to see her named as a person of interest, but not as a suspect, because there is not yet any proof that a crime has been committed.

Missing woman was involved in a church.

Missing woman was attending some form of marriage class or guidance through that church.

Family/friends create thousands of fliers to try to get missing woman's name and face widely recognised.

You do not see these similarities? :waitasec:


In my opinion it was just a sensational story to get readers.

mysticrose
04-24-2010, 11:35 AM
I just wanted to post this. It is Josh neighbor talking to reporters :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSXNz2J_bLM&feature=fvw

Dr. Know?
04-24-2010, 01:59 PM
I just read this. This area is less than 60 miles from Susan's hometown. The first article I read said it was believed to be a man. This one says it is undetermined and that is why I am posting the article. The life jacket is throwing me off though.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14952167?source=rss

Dr. Know?
04-24-2010, 02:27 PM
WILLARD, Box Elder County — Utah State Parks officials recovered a body Saturday morning in Willard Bay.

Fishermen saw something floating near the north dike of the bay around 10 a.m. and called park rangers. When rangers responded, they recovered the body of a person wearing a life jacket.

"The decomposition is very severe, and the gender is unknown," said Deena Loyola, a state parks spokeswoman. "It looks like the body has been in the water for quite a while."

The body is being transferred to the state medical examiner's office for identification and cause of death.

Loyola said officers think the body might belong to an Idaho man reported missing about three weeks ago who may have been kayaking in the area.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_14952167?source=rss

ETA,

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/news/breaking/article_07577766-48d6-11df-842a-001cc4c03286.html