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PickieChickie
03-23-2010, 08:32 PM
Video - Josh Powell was obsessed with crime shows and tells friend a mine shaft is the best place to hide a body

Josh Powell's friend reports, via telephone, Josh said the following during a 2008 Christmas party: "Basically it would be deep and it would go straight down and for someone to find something down that would be literally impossible. I couldn't believe I was having this discussion with him about this type of thing and I just couldn't believe it."

MORE AT ABC4 NEWS: (Video player is located in the top right corner of the screen): http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/New-concerns-about-planned-search-for-Susan-Powell/4bqHjEihG0K1aYZpBxo0iQ.cspx

gwenabob
03-23-2010, 08:40 PM
Video - Josh Powell was obsessed with crime shows and tells friend a mine shaft is the best place to hide a body

Josh Powell's friend (blurred out with altered voice) reports Josh said the following during a 2008 Christmas party: "Basically it would be deep and it would go straight down and for someone to find something down that would be literally impossible. I couldn't believe I was having this discussion with him about this type of thing and I just couldn't believe it."

MORE AT ABC4 NEWS: (Video player is located in the top right corner of the screen): http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/New-concerns-about-planned-search-for-Susan-Powell/4bqHjEihG0K1aYZpBxo0iQ.cspx

I bet the police have known about this and that is why they have been searching that area and they don't want volunteers.

fran
03-23-2010, 08:43 PM
This makes me want to cry. Josh is probably laughing his head off at all the people and time being spent to look for Susan.

Bless Susan and her family.

:(
fran

Dr.Fessel
03-23-2010, 08:43 PM
Video - Josh Powell was obsessed with crime shows and tells friend a mine shaft is the best place to hide a body

Josh Powell's friend (blurred out with altered voice) reports Josh said the following during a 2008 Christmas party: "Basically it would be deep and it would go straight down and for someone to find something down that would be literally impossible. I couldn't believe I was having this discussion with him about this type of thing and I just couldn't believe it."

MORE AT ABC4 NEWS: (Video player is located in the top right corner of the screen): http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/New-concerns-about-planned-search-for-Susan-Powell/4bqHjEihG0K1aYZpBxo0iQ.cspx

Doesn't appear to me the cops want any help finding Susan and that is just fine with Mr. Cox. There are some good comments on the story already.


In fact, Sheriff Park said individual searchers are already putting a strain on his resources. He said hardly a weekend goes by with a handful of tips coming in about suspicious mounds. "They've found a lot of interesting things, but nothing to do with Susan Powell." In many cases, he said people have found the remote grave of a family pet.

Still, his deputies investigate every tip. Sheriff Park emphasized, "Volunteers are great. People out on their own are great. It's just becoming a continual drain on our resources."
Chuck Cox added, "We need to let the police do the police work."

Dr.Fessel
03-23-2010, 08:49 PM
Mr. Cox should be begging the state police to take over the investigation. This is nuts.

passionflower
03-23-2010, 08:56 PM
What exactly is with the Cox family?
I would go insane if that was my daughter missing?
and in a mine shaft? OMG!
How many mines shafts in the area?
How would one look for a body in a mine shaft?
Here in PA mine shafts have allot of lime in them.
Nothing would be left????
Please find Susan!

RubyRed
03-23-2010, 08:56 PM
It's just becoming a continual drain on our resources."

UNBELIEVABLE


He made it clear the family does not endorse the search.

UNGRATEFUL

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/New-concerns-about-planned-search-for-Susan-Powell/4bqHjEihG0K1aYZpBxo0iQ.cspx

PickieChickie
03-23-2010, 08:58 PM
Video - Josh Powell was obsessed with crime shows and tells friend a mine shaft is the best place to hide a body

Josh Powell's friend reports, via telephone, Josh said the following during a 2008 Christmas party: "Basically it would be deep and it would go straight down and for someone to find something down that would be literally impossible. I couldn't believe I was having this discussion with him about this type of thing and I just couldn't believe it."

MORE AT ABC4 NEWS: (Video player is located in the top right corner of the screen): http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top%20stories/story/New-concerns-about-planned-search-for-Susan-Powell/4bqHjEihG0K1aYZpBxo0iQ.cspx

I am certain this friend reported what Josh told him to the police right away. This would explain all the search parties various people reported. For Mr. Cox to go out to the desert then say Susan's body couldn't be out there, especially when Josh told this friend "the best place to hide a body is straight down in a mine shaft" is amazing to me.

If Josh disposed of Susan's body down a mine shaft, he would have had to have prior knowledge of it's location and would have had to find the perfect one to accomplish what he set out to do; make it impossible to find Susan's body.

One has to wonder where he was all those times he didn't show up to pick up Susan. Perhaps he was out exploring to find just the perfect shaft.

It would be interesting to know what sort of online research he was doing!

Dr.Fessel
03-23-2010, 09:03 PM
I have no doubt the police will be out there harassing the searchers.

Hey you have two wheels off the road parking like that, you are getting a ticket.

Oh sticking that flag in the ground is littering,,,,,,,,,on and on and on.................

Where is the outrage of the friends. Instead of going to the desert they should go stand in front of the police station and demand answers.

mysticrose
03-23-2010, 09:10 PM
Well a mine shaft would be a good place to hide a body, Josh is right about that, and there are plenty mines out there. Some closed some not, which brings to mind Josh being seen buying a cutting torch. Where we ever able to confirm he bought one ? If he put Susan in a mine shaft he could have picked one that had been sealed, cut it open put her in and re welded it as to show it has not been disturbed ...

mysticrose
03-23-2010, 09:14 PM
I am also a little shocked about them not wanting searchers out there. The sheriff doesnt want the liability ? Well I sure would hope if one of my loved ones came up missing I could find that kind of support ! If they don't want them there Paige Birgfield is still missing here in Grand Junction and I am sure we could line up some area's to search !

RayO
03-23-2010, 10:18 PM
which brings to mind Josh being seen buying a cutting torch. Where we ever able to confirm he bought one ? If he put Susan in a mine shaft he could have picked one that had been sealed, cut it open put her in and re welded it as to show it has not been disturbed ...

Exactly, so any follow-up on the cutting torch lead? The Toole Co people mentioned something about looking mines in the Pony Express Trail area as part of their "thousands of hours" of searching. But there are really scant trees there - no "woods" there - ref Charlie's comment. How about mines up some of the nearby canyons, say in Utah Co, or further south along I-15?

PickieChickie
03-23-2010, 10:27 PM
Mr. Cox should be begging the state police to take over the investigation. This is nuts.

Someone sent me a message stating there is no Utah State Police, that the FBI need to be called in. Why do I get the impression that certain people close to Susan Powell don't want to find her body?

mysticrose
03-23-2010, 10:29 PM
Exactly, so any follow-up on the cutting torch lead? The Toole Co people mentioned something about looking mines in the Pony Express Trail area as part of their "thousands of hours" of searching. But there are really scant trees there - no "woods" there - ref Charlie's comment. How about mines up some of the nearby canyons, say in Utah Co, or further south along I-15?

Hi Ray ...Here is a site with listings for some mines in UT, The list is long and all by degrees, minutes and seconds, daunting task none the less I will keep looking for something more simpler ...

http://www.trainweb.org/utahrails/mining/utmines.html

I also will look into the cutting torch there was a lot of talk about it here on Susans thread, .....

ETA: Here is a link to a map for the counties in UT to help with the list above:

http://geology.com/county-map/utah.shtml

PickieChickie
03-23-2010, 10:32 PM
Well a mine shaft would be a good place to hide a body, Josh is right about that, and there are plenty mines out there. Some closed some not, which brings to mind Josh being seen buying a cutting torch. Where we ever able to confirm he bought one ? If he put Susan in a mine shaft he could have picked one that had been sealed, cut it open put her in and re welded it as to show it has not been disturbed ...

When the person who sold Josh the cutting torch gets tired of keeping quiet, they will probably call the media, either one of the local newspapers or TV stations, just like the fellow in the video has done.

People who have vital information are getting TIRED of keeping it to themselves as asked to by the police because they don't see the police doing anything.

I'm not saying the police aren't doing anything. It's just that people want answers NOW. It's been so long since Susan disappeared and these people who have interesting tidbits of information are going to start coming forward one by one.

IMO

PickieChickie
03-23-2010, 10:37 PM
Exactly, so any follow-up on the cutting torch lead? The Toole Co people mentioned something about looking mines in the Pony Express Trail area as part of their "thousands of hours" of searching. But there are really scant trees there - no "woods" there - ref Charlie's comment. How about mines up some of the nearby canyons, say in Utah Co, or further south along I-15?

Josh could have taken the boys up to a woody area after he ditched the body in the middle of the night so when they woke up, they would describe an entirely different area. If he knew exactly where he was going to dump Susan's body, and the spot was easily accessible, it wouldn't have taken him long.

I doubt Josh slept that night and drove somewhere to go think, unless he was really in WVC at 5:00 AM as has been suggested by someone who wanted $1000.00 for the information from the examiner.com reporter.

grayjay
03-23-2010, 10:53 PM
They can drop cameras down into deep shafts and stay safe. I won't think they can't find her in one of them until they say they've searched them all.

I believe the professionals are being methodical and spending taxpayers money wisely on this case, and I'm very grateful that they are indeed not letting it go cold.

Yes, those close to Susan Powell on the Powell side could reasonably be assumed to not want her body to be found. I think it's grossly unfair to think that's true of the others, though. This is a hurtful statement and drives some who care deeply away from this forum.

You might be in the remote parts of Utah if you drive on a dirt road and learn that the towing charge when your car breaks down starts at over a thousand bucks. It's different there. I'm just sayin'.

RayO
03-23-2010, 10:53 PM
Hi Ray ...Here is a site with listings for some mines in UT, The list is long and all by degrees, minutes and seconds, daunting task none the less I will keep looking for something more simpler ...

http://www.trainweb.org/utahrails/mining/utmines.html

I also will look into the cutting torch there was a lot of talk about it here on Susans thread, .....

ETA: Here is a link to a map for the counties in UT to help with the list above:

http://geology.com/county-map/utah.shtml

Thanks, that's great. Now we need a GIS guru to take the list and match it to a list of road coordinates (from Census data or ESRI files) and find which mines are fairly close to a road (say within 100 yards), and then at an altitude that would be accessible by the minivan in early December (say paved roads below 7000 ft?, unpaved roads below 6000 ft?). That would pare the list. So the searchers could use their GPS to find each of these and note if the entrance seal has been recently cut/re-sealed, look for trace evidence at the opening, etc. Sure would help to have any info from cell phone and credit card records.

grayjay
03-23-2010, 11:13 PM
Hi Ray ...Here is a site with listings for some mines in UT, The list is long and all by degrees, minutes and seconds, daunting task none the less I will keep looking for something more simpler ...

http://www.trainweb.org/utahrails/mining/utmines.html

I also will look into the cutting torch there was a lot of talk about it here on Susans thread, .....

ETA: Here is a link to a map for the counties in UT to help with the list above:

http://geology.com/county-map/utah.shtml
It should be fairly easy for those familiar with the county, to eliminate the quads that don't make sense and find roads on the others.

There are latitude and longitude conversion scripts on the web to translate DMS to decimal GPS. I snagged one and adapted it and I keep it handy. I can't share it, but it came from CSGNetwork.Com in 2006.

mysticrose
03-24-2010, 12:17 AM
Not sure if this helps, maybe.

Utah mining district areas,

http://geology.utah.gov/online/m/m-70.pdf



ETA: Abandoned Coal Mines in Utah

http://geology.utah.gov/databases/umsh/index.html
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................................

ETA: more links:

1912 Utah mining district 1 and 2,

http://menotomymaps.com/map_img.asp?p=map_fdbdown.asp?62&mak=1912_Utah_mining_district

http://menotomymaps.com/map_img.asp?p=map_fdbdown.asp?63&mak=1912_Utah_mining_district
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........

Public records - State of UT Coal mine locations

https://fs.ogm.utah.gov/PUB/MINES/Coal_Related/MAPS/pubrecmap.pdf

harleysnana
03-24-2010, 12:51 AM
Wow... I posted this rumor of the mine a while ago!
My source was my computer guy who said his sister use to work with Josh...
it was at a Christmas party that Josh said this to a number of co workers.

Anyway.... the local police do not want and are not encouraging people to search...
I'm starting to wonder if they have an idea where she is but they just canít get to her.
Itís the only thing that makes senseÖ. IMO.

PickieChickie
03-24-2010, 12:55 AM
Wow... I posted this rumor of the mine a while ago!
My source was my computer guy who said his sister use to work with Josh...
it was at a Christmas party that Josh said this to a number of co workers.

Anyway.... the local police do not want and are not encouraging people to search...
I'm starting to wonder if they have an idea where she is but they just canít get to her.
Itís the only thing that makes senseÖ. IMO.

Thank goodness someone finally came out and said something to the media! I bet the person got ticked off after hearing Mr. Cox, Susan's father, say he doesn't think Susan is "out there".

I believe this man spoke out because he wanted all the searchers to know that they were on the right track and to not be discouraged by Mr. Cox's evaluation of the situation!

dovebar
03-24-2010, 03:23 AM
If a killer bought plastic wrap and a cutting torch in advance, and scouted out dump sites instead of houses to sell, a question that occurs to me is why kill the victim now?

I know there was supposedly a new job the next day, but I'm not sure that would have been dreadful enough to make someone choose that date for that reason. If thye prepared, there goes the idea that there was a spontaneous argument.

Is there any reason why disposing of her in winter would be a better idea? Does this make the mine idea more likely? He knew he wouldn't have to dig a grave, and he knew the place was car-accessible even if it snowed. Perhaps he was counting on a good six months of decomposition before there were even hikers in the area examining mine entrances, and snow to cover any footprints. Perhaps there is water or other substance in the mine that will hurry the decomposition. Perhaps if this had been done in the summer, the mountains would be full of hikers and campers who might have seen someone that night.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/police-change-theory-on-body-in-mine-shaft/2006/03/07/1141701510874.html

dovebar
03-24-2010, 03:34 AM
Top story in the news in the week before Susan died was this.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=8858787

PickieChickie
03-24-2010, 03:54 AM
If a killer bought plastic wrap and a cutting torch in advance, and scouted out dump sites instead of houses to sell, a question that occurs to me is why kill the victim now?

I know there was supposedly a new job the next day, but I'm not sure that would have been dreadful enough to make someone choose that date for that reason. If thye prepared, there goes the idea that there was a spontaneous argument.

Is there any reason why disposing of her in winter would be a better idea? Does this make the mine idea more likely? He knew he wouldn't have to dig a grave, and he knew the place was car-accessible even if it snowed. Perhaps he was counting on a good six months of decomposition before there were even hikers in the area examining mine entrances, and snow to cover any footprints. Perhaps there is water or other substance in the mine that will hurry the decomposition. Perhaps if this had been done in the summer, the mountains would be full of hikers and campers who might have seen someone that night.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/police-change-theory-on-body-in-mine-shaft/2006/03/07/1141701510874.html

Josh allegedly purchased a cutting torch on Monday, December 7th, 2010, a number of hours after he left to go camping.

Josh wasn't starting a new job the next day as he'd been employed by the trucking company as a computer programmer for approximately one year.

I really don't think he planned to kill Susan that night. I do, however, think he thought about it as he realized he would never be able to become the person Susan required him to be. Knowing the deadline of their wedding anniversary was rapidly approaching, I believe he became angrier each day and finally lost his temper that fateful night and either struck, shoved or choked Susan.

He may have already had an idea of which mine shaft would be a good disposal site and was fantasizing about killing Susan.

If he had planned Susan's murder in advance, one would think he would have taken the family on a camping or hiking trip and pushed her off a cliff and claimed she slipped or some caused some other believable accident such as a drowning. At least that would have been more believable than the camping story!

PickieChickie
03-24-2010, 03:59 AM
Wow... I posted this rumor of the mine a while ago!
My source was my computer guy who said his sister use to work with Josh...
it was at a Christmas party that Josh said this to a number of co workers.

Anyway.... the local police do not want and are not encouraging people to search...
I'm starting to wonder if they have an idea where she is but they just canít get to her.
Itís the only thing that makes senseÖ. IMO.

It is an AWESOME thing if many people heard Josh make the statement that a good place to hide a body is down a mine shaft!

If Susan's body is never found, but the police have given the district attorney enough circumstantial evidence to prosecute Josh for murder, these people will make EXCELLENT witnesses!

I know if I was sitting on a jury and learned about Josh's camping trip, watched the video footage of him being interviewed by the reporters then heard witnesses tell of his statement, I'd vote GUILTY!!!!!

Josh Powell will be indicted one day. Let's hope the prosecutor doesn't wait so long that the witnesses are no longer available to testify about hearing Josh make that statement!

Bartleby
03-24-2010, 04:32 PM
Josh allegedly purchased a cutting torch on Monday, December 7th, 2010, a number of hours after he left to go camping.

Josh wasn't starting a new job the next day as he'd been employed by the trucking company as a computer programmer for approximately one year.

I really don't think he planned to kill Susan that night. I do, however, think he thought about it as he realized he would never be able to become the person Susan required him to be. Knowing the deadline of their wedding anniversary was rapidly approaching, I believe he became angrier each day and finally lost his temper that fateful night and either struck, shoved or choked Susan.

He may have already had an idea of which mine shaft would be a good disposal site and was fantasizing about killing Susan.

If he had planned Susan's murder in advance, one would think he would have taken the family on a camping or hiking trip and pushed her off a cliff and claimed she slipped or some caused some other believable accident such as a drowning. At least that would have been more believable than the camping story!

Does anyone have a link to that story? Unless he went to a 24 hour store, he's have had to wait till the morning to buy a cutting torch, or dump the body and then drive back to the store, then go back and retrieve the body to dump it again where the torch would help gain access. I don't think it would be within Josh's ability to cut open a sealed shaft and then seal it again without it being obvious that it had been tampered with. Maybe an expert could do it, but not an amateur.

I agree with your theory PickieChickie, that he could have thought about murder long before it happened, didn't plan it for that particular evening, but once he's committed the crime he was determined to use his previous knowledge to try to cover things up.

If he'd planned it he could have taken Susan on a camping trip in good weather, "helped" her down a mineshaft, and then either reported it as an accident, or as "she wandered away from the family and didn't come back"

RayO
03-24-2010, 06:59 PM
Does anyone have a link to that story? Unless he went to a 24 hour store, he's have had to wait till the morning to buy a cutting torch, or dump the body and then drive back to the store, then go back and retrieve the body to dump it again where the torch would help gain access. I don't think it would be within Josh's ability to cut open a sealed shaft and then seal it again without it being obvious that it had been tampered with. Maybe an expert could do it, but not an amateur.

I agree with your theory PickieChickie, that he could have thought about murder long before it happened, didn't plan it for that particular evening, but once he's committed the crime he was determined to use his previous knowledge to try to cover things up.

If he'd planned it he could have taken Susan on a camping trip in good weather, "helped" her down a mineshaft, and then either reported it as an accident, or as "she wandered away from the family and didn't come back"

My thinking is he did not plan for this to happen that night. When their marital conflict escalated that evening he ended-up killing her, then he scrambled to deal with her body. Otherwise he could have worked-up a better alibi.

He took her somewhere he knew from prior hiking or camping that there were abandoned mines with the idea of disposing her body that way. When he actually did that, he found he could hide the body more thoroughly if he could get past an iron grate or barrier that had been installed to seal a shaft. So, he went back, cut the barrier with the cutting torch and moved the body into the shaft. Possibly resealing when he was done. Even if that was done, the cutting and resealing would likely look fresh compared to the original install, and probably sloppy since I don't think he had prior experience working with such equipment. And he may have returned another time with the rental car to further cover his tracks and/or be sure he didn't leave behind any clothing, etc, on the trail from the road to the mine.

PickieChickie
03-24-2010, 07:50 PM
Does anyone have a link to that story? Unless he went to a 24 hour store, he's have had to wait till the morning to buy a cutting torch, or dump the body and then drive back to the store, then go back and retrieve the body to dump it again where the torch would help gain access. I don't think it would be within Josh's ability to cut open a sealed shaft and then seal it again without it being obvious that it had been tampered with. Maybe an expert could do it, but not an amateur.

I agree with your theory PickieChickie, that he could have thought about murder long before it happened, didn't plan it for that particular evening, but once he's committed the crime he was determined to use his previous knowledge to try to cover things up.

If he'd planned it he could have taken Susan on a camping trip in good weather, "helped" her down a mineshaft, and then either reported it as an accident, or as "she wandered away from the family and didn't come back"

He allegedly went to Air Gas in Salt Lake City early Monday morning. I think they open at 7:00 AM on Monday mornings. Someone should call and find out. It was discussed in the "Was Josh seen buying a roll of shrink wrap?" thread here on Websleuths.

KBH5
03-25-2010, 02:27 PM
Thank goodness someone finally came out and said something to the media! I bet the person got ticked off after hearing Mr. Cox, Susan's father, say he doesn't think Susan is "out there".

I believe this man spoke out because he wanted all the searchers to know that they were on the right track and to not be discouraged by Mr. Cox's evaluation of the situation!

I was under the impression from watching the video and reading the article that Chuck Cox was ONLY referring to the Simpson Springs campground area when he said he didn't think Susan is "out there."

I don't think he meant that she isn't anywhere in the west desert, or down a mine shaft. I think he was only referring to Simpson Springs, since that's where he was at the time and that's where Josh said he went. JMO

PickieChickie
03-25-2010, 03:07 PM
I was under the impression from watching the video and reading the article that Chuck Cox was ONLY referring to the Simpson Springs campground area when he said he didn't think Susan is "out there."

Thank you for your input! I don't think he meant that she isn't anywhere in the west desert, or down a mine shaft. I think he was only referring to Simpson Springs, since that's where he was at the time and that's where Josh said he went. JMO

I have to wonder exactly how many man hours were spent exploring the Simpson Springs area. I think I remember the West Valley City Chief of Police stating they have spent thousands of hours exploring the Simpson Spring area.

If I am correct, clearly they felt Josh Powell could have accessed that area. We have to keep in mind the snow storm had not hit yet when he claims he drove out there.

With good tires and front wheel drive, that van could make it a lot of places, especially if he had chains.

Chains can at times get a CAR where a truck with 4-wheel drive and NO chains can go.

The only thing preventing the van from going particular places would be the low clearance, bushes, trees, rocks, gates, etc.

The ground was FROZEN so there wasn't mud anywhere.

KBH5
03-25-2010, 03:36 PM
Sorry, I wasn't able to get the quote part of your message actually quoted. :) Guess I don't exactly know how these things work.

I'll try to do it by hand. Inside your message, you quote my message above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBH5
I was under the impression from watching the video and reading the article that Chuck Cox was ONLY referring to the Simpson Springs campground area when he said he didn't think Susan is "out there."

Thank you for your input! I don't think he meant that she isn't anywhere in the west desert, or down a mine shaft. I think he was only referring to Simpson Springs, since that's where he was at the time and that's where Josh said he went. JMO
--End quote-- and bbm

I'm really not sure how "Thank you for your input!" got inside my post that you quoted above. Maybe some message board glitch? I didn't write that part, as you can see from my un-edited above post.

:waitasec:

I have to wonder exactly how many man hours were spent exploring the Simpson Springs area. I think I remember the West Valley City Chief of Police stating they have spent thousands of hours exploring the Simpson Spring area.

If I am correct, clearly they felt Josh Powell could have accessed that area. We have to keep in mind the snow storm had not hit yet when he claims he drove out there.
(snipped for space)

I agree about the storm...not sure when the snow started that night (Sunday, Dec. 6) but apparently it came after Josh left the Powell house, whenever he left...because investigators saw no van tracks in the fresh snow on Monday morning in the Powell driveway. That was one reason everyone panicked about the carbon monoxide poisoning possibility...they assumed the van was inside the garage with no tracks in the driveway.

PickieChickie
03-25-2010, 03:54 PM
Sorry, I wasn't able to get the quote part of your message actually quoted. :) Guess I don't exactly know how these things work.

I'll try to do it by hand. Inside your message, you quote my message above:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBH5
I was under the impression from watching the video and reading the article that Chuck Cox was ONLY referring to the Simpson Springs campground area when he said he didn't think Susan is "out there."

Thank you for your input! I don't think he meant that she isn't anywhere in the west desert, or down a mine shaft. I think he was only referring to Simpson Springs, since that's where he was at the time and that's where Josh said he went. JMO
--End quote-- and bbm

I'm really not sure how "Thank you for your input!" got inside my post that you quoted above. Maybe some message board glitch? I didn't write that part, as you can see from my un-edited above post.

:waitasec:

(snipped for space)

I agree about the storm...not sure when the snow started that night (Sunday, Dec. 6) but apparently it came after Josh left the Powell house, whenever he left...because investigators saw no van tracks in the fresh snow on Monday morning in the Powell driveway. That was one reason everyone panicked about the carbon monoxide poisoning possibility...they assumed the van was inside the garage with no tracks in the driveway.

When I typed my response to you, I started it off with "Thank you for your input." What's odd is that I don't see it on my post at all! OK: I accidentally typed it in the quote from you. It was an after thought because I didn't want to sound like I was belittling you.

KBH5
03-25-2010, 03:58 PM
Ah. Thanks for clearing that up. :)

dld804
03-25-2010, 04:02 PM
why don't they just arrest him. This case reminds me more and more of Drew Peterson.

PickieChickie
03-25-2010, 04:17 PM
why don't they just arrest him. This case reminds me more and more of Drew Peterson.

It is very difficult to convict someone for murder when there is no body. Therefore, the district attorney is waiting for Susan's body to be found, for credible witnesses to come forward and/or for the results of their current wire tapping, bugging, GPS monitoring, etc. to pad their case with enough evidence to insure a conviction.

If Susan's body is not found, we can expect to wait at least two years before Josh is indicted and tried for murder on circumstantial evidence alone.

It is critical that the DA has all the evidence they possibly can before they charge Josh with murdering Susan. If they mess up, and Josh is found innocent, he can never be tried again.

It's better to wait than rush into things.

dovebar
03-25-2010, 04:31 PM
The van wouldn't do well on a steep incline, which means he probably didn't go somewhere like up Parley's Canyon.

It wouldn't do well on a deeply rutted dirt road, which means he probably didn't drive deeply into the western mountains, because they get to dirt road pretty quickly.

That means any dump site or mine needs to be pretty accessible by van. Given Susan's dead weight, no one would walk that far with a body in that weather.

Would little boys be trusted to stay in the van?
Would they have been drugged to sleep through it?
Were they enlisted to help carry one end of her body?

I don't know, just wondering.

My money would be on a dump site, mine or otherwise, that would be close to the road for these reasons. Kids could be told to stay in the van and the killer could be gone only a short time, so that the kids wouldn't be tempted to get out.

Perhaps dumped that night and sealed up later when the rental car was available.

RayO
03-25-2010, 06:23 PM
Regarding the snow question, at the Salt Lake International Airport it started snowing at 3am Sunday and snowed until about 10 am. Then it stopped and restarted at 10pm, snowing off and on until about 7 am MST Monday morning.

Here are the highs and lows

Sunday high 24 F, 0.7 inches of new snow, 1 inch of snow on the ground
Monday morning low 17 F, 0.4 inches of new snow, 1 inch of snow on the ground
Monday daytime high 24 F

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSLC/2009/12/6/DailyHistory.html
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSLC/2009/12/7/DailyHistory.html

scroll to the bottom to see the hour-by-hour info

Of course in this sort of terrain there are a lot of variations in temperature and snow with elevation and local slope of the elevation with respect to the wind (upslope or downslope). The SLC airport is pretty close to West Valley City, but may or may represent the weather at the "campsite" or at whatever location Josh and the kids spent the night.

RubyRed
03-25-2010, 07:13 PM
why don't they just arrest him. This case reminds me more and more of Drew Peterson.

I feel the same way and then I read what pickie wrote and it makes sense why they are waiting.



It is very difficult to convict someone for murder when there is no body. Therefore, the district attorney is waiting for Susan's body to be found, for credible witnesses to come forward and/or for the results of their current wire tapping, bugging, GPS monitoring, etc. to pad their case with enough evidence to insure a conviction.

If Susan's body is not found, we can expect to wait at least two years before Josh is indicted and tried for murder on circumstantial evidence alone.

It is critical that the DA has all the evidence they possibly can before they charge Josh with murdering Susan. If they mess up, and Josh is found innocent, he can never be tried again.

It's better to wait than rush into things.

grayjay
03-25-2010, 09:21 PM
Very interesting and useful about the amounts of snow, Ray. Nice work.

I realize the boys may not have been near real "woods" or may have been fooled about where they were. Then I started to think some more about how they had to be told mommy was staying there because they knew she left the van and didn't come back. They didn't think she was at home sleeping.

I had been picturing either she had to walk out of the van or be in some sort of a bundle not easily recognized by a four year old. Now I'm wondering all over again about this and am trying to come up with a picture of just what had to be explained away.

It might have made Charlie very upset if he made the connection between the bad weather and mommy staying in the woods. But quite possibly not, because I remember my own four year old packing her tiny backpack to run away from home at that age.

PickieChickie
03-25-2010, 09:32 PM
Very interesting and useful about the amounts of snow, Ray. Nice work.

I realize the boys may not have been near real "woods" or may have been fooled about where they were. Then I started to think some more about how they had to be told mommy was staying there because they knew she left the van and didn't come back. They didn't think she was at home sleeping.

I had been picturing either she had to walk out of the van or be in some sort of a bundle not easily recognized by a four year old. Now I'm wondering all over again about this and am trying to come up with a picture of just what had to be explained away.

It might have made Charlie very upset if he made the connection between the bad weather and mommy staying in the woods. But quite possibly not, because I remember my own four year old packing her tiny backpack to run away from home at that age.

I have heard the Charlie Powell quote "Mommy stayed in the woods" but don't remember reading it in a newspaper article with a source for the quote.

Do you know where this comment came from?

grayjay
03-25-2010, 09:54 PM
I have heard the Charlie Powell quote "Mommy stayed in the woods" but don't remember reading it in a newspaper article with a source for the quote.

Do you know where this comment came from?

Hmmm. That's funny, Chickie, but when searching I find mentions of it by you. It took longer to track this one down...
<snipped>

That honestly sounds plausible, IMHO. He was seen returning at 8:30. That may have been when he told his boy 'mommy is going to stay in the woods for a while.'
....
PS..To anyone who wonders, this statement of mommy staying in the woods is not necessarily 'truth' but could just be 'rumor.' It was posted on one of the news sites in the blog. The person said something about knowing someone in LE and they revealed a couple of things that were being discussed behind the scenes and this was one of the items. It was alleged to have been said by the child when LE talked to the child while the dad was being questioned also.

hollyblue
03-26-2010, 11:25 PM
Very interesting and useful about the amounts of snow, Ray. Nice work.

I realize the boys may not have been near real "woods" or may have been fooled about where they were. Then I started to think some more about how they had to be told mommy was staying there because they knew she left the van and didn't come back. They didn't think she was at home sleeping.

I had been picturing either she had to walk out of the van or be in some sort of a bundle not easily recognized by a four year old. Now I'm wondering all over again about this and am trying to come up with a picture of just what had to be explained away.

It might have made Charlie very upset if he made the connection between the bad weather and mommy staying in the woods. But quite possibly not, because I remember my own four year old packing her tiny backpack to run away from home at that age.

LOL! I think we all did that. I took my pillow and parents wished me luck and said good-bye.. Pop gave me an apple incase I got hungry!!! LOL

Bartleby
03-27-2010, 11:45 AM
He allegedly went to Air Gas in Salt Lake City early Monday morning. I think they open at 7:00 AM on Monday mornings. Someone should call and find out. It was discussed in the "Was Josh seen buying a roll of shrink wrap?" thread here on Websleuths.

That would be a key siting if it could be confirmed, because wherever Josh went between 12:30am and 7am, and then 7am and 5pm, is obviously a great deal less far than if he had from 12:30am to 5pm. It would also suggest a direction he drove, since he'd be unlikely to use a SLC gas station to fill up if he was driving directly west from WVC.

Can you give a link to the story of that siting?

I have to wonder exactly how many man hours were spent exploring the Simpson Springs area. I think I remember the West Valley City Chief of Police stating they have spent thousands of hours exploring the Simpson Spring area.

If I am correct, clearly they felt Josh Powell could have accessed that area. We have to keep in mind the snow storm had not hit yet when he claims he drove out there.

With good tires and front wheel drive, that van could make it a lot of places, especially if he had chains.

Chains can at times get a CAR where a truck with 4-wheel drive and NO chains can go.

The only thing preventing the van from going particular places would be the low clearance, bushes, trees, rocks, gates, etc.

The ground was FROZEN so there wasn't mud anywhere.

I've not heard chains mentioned before.

Is it being suggested that either Josh previously owned a set of chains for the van, or bought a set of chains on 6-7th December? Have any neighbours confirmed that Josh owned a set of chains for the van? Has any store representative come forward to say they sold a set of chains to Josh? Were chains found in or on his van when it was searched?

He would quite likely show them off and brag about them, unless he bought them specifically with a nefarious porpose in mind. I've looked briefly at chains, and they seem an unnecessary fuss unless you plan to be driving on unplowed roads or offroad. A lot of people here still have snowtires on, which also give better traction on shallow snow covered roads, but also tear up the road surface slightly if there is no snow, and increase gas consumption.

For a man who won't let his wife feed the kids to be spending money on snowchains would be yet another abuse of the family budget, but of course quite within Josh's powers from what we know of his character.

PickieChickie
03-27-2010, 12:02 PM
That would be a key siting if it could be confirmed, because wherever Josh went between 12:30am and 7am, and then 7am and 5pm, is obviously a great deal less far than if he had from 12:30am to 5pm. It would also suggest a direction he drove, since he'd be unlikely to use a SLC gas station to fill up if he was driving directly west from WVC.

Can you give a link to the story of that siting?

All I can do is direct you to the "Was Josh seen buying a roll of shrink wrap?" thread here on Websleuths. The cutting torch purchase was NOT reported in a newspaper article. But, someone claimed that the purchase was reported to law enforcement along with a receipt by Air Gas. It was also said the purchase was made EARLY Monday morning. I have every reason to believe this is true, although I've not seen a copy of the receipt.

I've not heard chains mentioned before.

Is it being suggested that either Josh previously owned a set of chains for the van, or bought a set of chains on 6-7th December? Have any neighbours confirmed that Josh owned a set of chains for the van? Has any store representative come forward to say they sold a set of chains to Josh? Were chains found in or on his van when it was searched?

He would quite likely show them off and brag about them, unless he bought them specifically with a nefarious porpose in mind. I've looked briefly at chains, and they seem an unnecessary fuss unless you plan to be driving on unplowed roads or offroad. A lot of people here still have snowtires on, which also give better traction on shallow snow covered roads, but also tear up the road surface slightly if there is no snow, and increase gas consumption.

For a man who won't let his wife feed the kids to be spending money on snowchains would be yet another abuse of the family budget, but of course quite within Josh's powers from what we know of his character.

I haven't heard a report that Josh owned or purchased a set of tire chains. I was just making a point that once a vehicle arrives at a certain place where travel is limited because of no traction, chains will get it places where it would otherwise not be able to go.

When Mr. Cox visited the Simpson Springs area, he based his conclusion about Susan not being "out there" on his belief Josh was driving the family van which only has front wheel drive and no 4-wheel drive.

A vehicle with front wheel drive has more pull and can get further than a vehicle with rear wheel drive because instead of the vehicle being pushed from the rear axle/wheels/tires, it is being pulled by the front axle/wheels/tires.

I simply brought up the fact that chains would have broadened the areas accessible to Josh Powell and I'm not implying he used them the entire trip.

It would seem to me that any person who lives in an area that gets a lot of snow would own a set of chains and carry them with them during the winter.

I would like to think Josh Powell owned a set!

Did the rental car have chains? That could explain Josh's red, windburned hands!

Bartleby
03-27-2010, 12:26 PM
All I can do is direct you to the "Was Josh seen buying a roll of shrink wrap?" thread here on Websleuths. The cutting torch purchase was NOT reported in a newspaper article. But, someone claimed that the purchase was reported to law enforcement along with a receipt by Air Gas. It was also said the purchase was made EARLY Monday morning. I have every reason to believe this is true, although I've not seen a copy of the receipt.



I haven't heard a report that Josh owned or purchased a set of tire chains. I was just making a point that once a vehicle arrives at a certain place where travel is limited because of no traction, chains will get it places where it would otherwise not be able to go.

When Mr. Cox visited the Simpson Springs area, he based his conclusion about Susan not being "out there" on his belief Josh was driving the family van which only has front wheel drive and no 4-wheel drive.

A vehicle with front wheel drive has more pull and can get further than a vehicle with rear wheel drive because instead of the vehicle being pushed from the rear axle/wheels/tires, it is being pulled by the front axle/wheels/tires.

I simply brought up the fact that chains would have broadened the areas accessible to Josh Powell and I'm not implying he used them the entire trip.

It would seem to me that any person who lives in an area that gets a lot of snow would own a set of chains and carry them with them during the winter.

I would like to think Josh Powell owned a set!

Did the rental car have chains? That could explain Josh's red, windburned hands!

Thanks for the clarification. What we could do with is one of Josh's neighbours to come forward to confirm whether or not Josh had chains for his van. I doubt everyone in WVC drives with chains everytime it snows, but maybe they all own a set of snowtires and fit them for the winter.

There are people still driving round here in snowtires, when there hasn't been one flake of snow drop on the city all winter.


I'll have to go back to the shrink wrap thread and read it through again. A purchase of anything, anywhere, by Josh on 7th December would be a vital piece of evidence, even Graham crackers, marshmallows and Hershey bars, but knowing how tight-lipped WVC LE are being, we probably won't get confirmation of this event (if it occurred) until it comes out in court.

Unfortunately we are being forced by WVC LE to theorise without all the facts.

sunnydee
04-03-2010, 11:48 AM
I know a lot of people don't believe Josh had planned in advance to murder Susan and believe it was more of a last minute thing. (Doesn't seem to be the type - whatever that means) However, if Susan was able to plan ahead for a possible divorce and continue to live with him as if nothing was wrong, and she was trying to work on her marriage - why couldn't Josh have been doing the same thing? While she is contributing to her separate bank account, he is working out the bugs on his plan B if Susan tries to leave him? She kept notes in her secret book at work, and he planned how to get rid of a body without leaving evidence. Maybe neither of them really planned on a day, or even thought their first plan would be that they wouldn't need their plan B, but both privately worked on their own plan B.

How many times could he have taken the family on an outing that Susan thought was very nice, when he was taking her to consider his future options and imaging what he would do to her in the future?

I am thinking Susan was taken to a place they have been together before, and it was something he had considered doing in the past and not as a last second thought after he accidentally killed her. I bet Josh has a family photo of the place where he later left Susan.

sunnydee
04-03-2010, 12:15 PM
I'm thinking the kind of man who would take the time to (rent?) steam clean the carpets and leave a fan drying off the carpet before he leaves to dump the body is not the kind of person who would drive around without a plan and leave a body close to the road.

If you accidentally killed someone, (can't say that I know for sure since I've never been in that situation myself) I think the first thing you think of is to get rid of the body - and clean up evidence later. Maybe he was afraid that the stain on the carpet would set? I don't know.

He was planning enough that he felt he could clean up the carpet, have it dry out while he was away and then he could take care of the little details (like the purse, keys, cellphone whatever), empty out the steam cleaner and put it away.

The guy was comfortable enough to leave his wife around while he cleaned the carpets.

I think he had a very well thought out plan by the time he left, and knew exactly what he was going to do. He just didn't count on his family calling the police before he could return and take care of the other things.

Bartleby
04-03-2010, 11:01 PM
I'm thinking the kind of man who would take the time to (rent?) steam clean the carpets and leave a fan drying off the carpet before he leaves to dump the body is not the kind of person who would drive around without a plan and leave a body close to the road.

If you accidentally killed someone, (can't say that I know for sure since I've never been in that situation myself) I think the first thing you think of is to get rid of the body - and clean up evidence later. Maybe he was afraid that the stain on the carpet would set? I don't know.

He was planning enough that he felt he could clean up the carpet, have it dry out while he was away and then he could take care of the little details (like the purse, keys, cellphone whatever), empty out the steam cleaner and put it away.

The guy was comfortable enough to leave his wife around while he cleaned the carpets.

I think he had a very well thought out plan by the time he left, and knew exactly what he was going to do. He just didn't count on his family calling the police before he could return and take care of the other things.

You seem to have extrapolated a "wet spot on the carpet" to be a whole steam cleaning. I don't think steam cleaning has ever been mentioned or suggested before, it was merely a damp area of the carpet near the couch, as might result from spilt drink, or mopping up dropped food.

It has been suggested that the damp area might have been the result of mopping up blood, vomit or bodily excreta. Entirely possible. It might also have been due to something knocked over during a row.

gwenabob
04-03-2010, 11:07 PM
You seem to have extrapolated a "wet spot on the carpet" to be a whole steam cleaning. I don't think steam cleaning has ever been mentioned or suggested before, it was merely a damp area of the carpet near the couch, as might result from spilt drink, or mopping up dropped food.

It has been suggested that the damp area might have been the result of mopping up blood, vomit or bodily excreta. Entirely possible. It might also have been due to something knocked over during a row.

I thought early in the investigation it was determined that the Powells owned their own carpet cleaner and that the carpet cleaner had been taken during the police search of the home.

PickieChickie
04-03-2010, 11:10 PM
I'm thinking the kind of man who would take the time to (rent?) steam clean the carpets and leave a fan drying off the carpet before he leaves to dump the body is not the kind of person who would drive around without a plan and leave a body close to the road.

Josh and Susan had owned the carpet cleaner for a long time. He didn't go out and rent it. (This was told to me by someone who has known the Powells for a number of years and who was in their home on a regular basis.)

PickieChickie
04-03-2010, 11:12 PM
You seem to have extrapolated a "wet spot on the carpet" to be a whole steam cleaning. I don't think steam cleaning has ever been mentioned or suggested before, it was merely a damp area of the carpet near the couch, as might result from spilt drink, or mopping up dropped food.

It has been suggested that the damp area might have been the result of mopping up blood, vomit or bodily excreta. Entirely possible. It might also have been due to something knocked over during a row.

The Powells owned a carpet cleaner and it has been suggested that it was used to clean up whatever was spilled on the carpet, that the wet spot was from cleaning up whatever got on the carpet to make using it necessary.

sunnydee
04-04-2010, 10:37 AM
You seem to have extrapolated a "wet spot on the carpet" to be a whole steam cleaning. I don't think steam cleaning has ever been mentioned or suggested before, it was merely a damp area of the carpet near the couch, as might result from spilt drink, or mopping up dropped food.

It has been suggested that the damp area might have been the result of mopping up blood, vomit or bodily excreta. Entirely possible. It might also have been due to something knocked over during a row.

Leaving two fans blowing over night on the area led me to think the area was significant.

Dr.Fessel
04-04-2010, 10:55 AM
Leaving two fans blowing over night on the area led me to think the area was significant.


LE taking half the carpet in the living room points to that too. There is no doubt in my mind it was blood.

sunnydee
04-04-2010, 12:10 PM
I know the temperature was cold (as it is now - we live in the same area as the Powells' did). We just had our carpets clean (entire house) and it was mostly dried within a couple of hours. Ours were cleaned about 5 pm, and were dried before we went to bed. We did not have fans blowing on the carpet. If Josh cleaned the carpet (however big the spot was) before leaving at midnight or so, and left two fans blowing on it over night; the police entered the house about 9 am (or a little later) and still described it as a "wet spot". It was not described as "fans blowing over a recently cleaned area of the carpet" but fans blowing on a wet spot.

Either Josh tried very, very hard to get something out of the carpet and went over it again and again - or maybe he doesn't know how to use his equipment very well, or I suppose it is possible that he just owns a really poor functioning steam cleaner that left the carpet still wet 9 or more hours after having fans blowing on it.

pip
04-04-2010, 12:12 PM
LE taking half the carpet in the living room points to that too. There is no doubt in my mind it was blood. I wonder if he could have cleaned it well enough that they could find no blood? I would think that would be very hard to accomplish. If they found blood, I would think he'd be arrested by now. It would be pretty damning evidence, given the rest of the circumstances. Maybe there was no blood. A urine clean up maybe? Maybe the kids were in bed and he strangled her on the livingroom floor. She likely would have released her bladder.

sunnydee
04-04-2010, 12:37 PM
“Cox said the presence of the wet spot initially gave him hope the family may have simply rushed to the hospital after an accident.”

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705351425/Wet-spot-found-in-Powells-home.html


_______________________________
Seems odd to me that the presence of a wet spot would make you hopeful that an accident occurred and the family just rushed to the hospital. (Sounds as if he didn't expect the wet spot was likely from a spilled drink and he thought going to the hospital was less serious than what he was imagining otherwise)

I think the families (both sides) had their reasons to be concern for Susan before this day.

Dr.Fessel
04-04-2010, 12:47 PM
I wonder if he could have cleaned it well enough that they could find no blood? I would think that would be very hard to accomplish. If they found blood, I would think he'd be arrested by now. It would be pretty damning evidence, given the rest of the circumstances. Maybe there was no blood. A urine clean up maybe? Maybe the kids were in bed and he strangled her on the livingroom floor. She likely would have released her bladder.

They try to determine how much blood it would take to make the stain they found. That would be a good reason to take as much carpet as they could, they could use the other pieces of carpet and pad to determine that. Even if they found enough blood to say yes she died here it still does not mean Josh did it.

pip
04-04-2010, 12:56 PM
They try to determine how much blood it would take to make the stain they found. That would be a good reason to take as much carpet as they could, they could use the other pieces of carpet and pad to determine that. Even if they found enough blood to say yes she died here it still does not mean Josh did it.
It wouldn't prove that Josh did it, but with that, and all the other circumstances it would be enough to detain him I would hope. Like KC and the decomp in her trunk, and all other circumstantials. I think in finding a wet spot and a fan blowing there, if they found any amount of her blood in that area, and she is missing, it would be enough to suspect foul play and all arrows point to him. jmo.
Of course they would be taking their chances that circumstantial evidence would get a conviction, but I think a jury would put 2 and 2 together given the whole picture.

Dr.Fessel
04-04-2010, 01:05 PM
It wouldn't prove that Josh did it, but with that, and all the other circumstances it would be enough to detain him I would hope. Like KC and the decomp in her trunk, and all other circumstantials. I think in finding a wet spot and a fan blowing there, if they found any amount of her blood in that area, and she is missing, it would be enough to suspect foul play and all arrows point to him. jmo.
Of course they would be taking their chances that circumstantial evidence would get a conviction, but I think a jury would put 2 and 2 together given the whole picture.


Playing devils advocate here.

Josh and kids head out of town leaving wife at home alone. Someone she knows, say a neighbor next door comes over and sees a chance for a little romance. After all she has been consulting him on her marital problems and he was quick to point a finger at Josh when she went missing.

Not that I believe any of that but you can bet the defense would come up with a story like that and all they have to do is convince 1 jury member.

pip
04-04-2010, 01:11 PM
Playing devils advocate here.

Josh and kids head out of town leaving wife at home alone. Someone she knows, say a neighbor next door comes over and sees a chance for a little romance. After all she has been consulting him on her marital problems and he was quick to point a finger at Josh when she went missing.

Not that I believe any of that but you can bet the defense would come up with a story like that and all they have to do is convince 1 jury member.

I see what your saying. Maybe it is just wishful thinking on my part :angel: I just want to see him arrested and the children safe with Susan's family.

grayjay
04-04-2010, 01:32 PM
Playing devils advocate here.

Josh and kids head out of town leaving wife at home alone. Someone she knows, say a neighbor next door comes over and sees a chance for a little romance. After all she has been consulting him on her marital problems and he was quick to point a finger at Josh when she went missing.

Not that I believe any of that but you can bet the defense would come up with a story like that and all they have to do is convince 1 jury member.The neighbor is watching the house instead of sleeping and sees the van leaving. But the person you have in mind isn't in the same cul-de-sac AFAIK. And motive? Got motive? She didn't invite him over and he got rejected? As hard as I try, I can't make this story work. I don't think the defense can, either.

gwenabob
04-04-2010, 02:35 PM
Playing devils advocate here.

Josh and kids head out of town leaving wife at home alone. Someone she knows, say a neighbor next door comes over and sees a chance for a little romance. After all she has been consulting him on her marital problems and he was quick to point a finger at Josh when she went missing.

Not that I believe any of that but you can bet the defense would come up with a story like that and all they have to do is convince 1 jury member.

But you still have some problems with this scenario. Why would a love-struck neighbor be watching the house at 12:30 am the night before work? How would he be so lucky dumb-ass Josh would spontaneously take both boys camping at that ridiculous hour? How would he know where the carpet cleaner was and how to use it? How would he lock the door behind him without using Susan's keys? How would he get her body out of the house without anybody seeing him or leaving heavy footprints? Remember, there were no tire tracks in the driveway the next morning which was what led the family to think nobody had left the house that morning.

I see where this defense might be tried, but there are just too many holes in it for it to work.

sunnydee
04-04-2010, 03:55 PM
But you still have some problems with this scenario. Why would a love-struck neighbor be watching the house at 12:30 am the night before work? How would he be so lucky dumb-ass Josh would spontaneously take both boys camping at that ridiculous hour? How would he know where the carpet cleaner was and how to use it? How would he lock the door behind him without using Susan's keys? How would he get her body out of the house without anybody seeing him or leaving heavy footprints? Remember, there were no tire tracks in the driveway the next morning which was what led the family to think nobody had left the house that morning.

I see where this defense might be tried, but there are just too many holes in it for it to work.

One would wonder why a lovesick neighbor waited until Josh left the 2nd time, and not when he took the boys sledding earlier that evening from 5 to 8 pm (about). Also, if he happened to see/hear the Powell's van leave around midnight - would one be able to be absolutely certain who was actually in the van (at that time of night/distance?) The camping trip was not planned in advance. For all the hypothetical lovesick guy knows - the entire family could have been in the van, or Susan could have been driving (and Josh was left at home), or Josh could have been leaving by himself. Why would Mr. Lovesick presume that the family minus Susan would be leaving for the entire night on a work night? (Unless he too forgot to go to church). For all Mr. Lovesick knows, either Susan or Josh went out to buy cough syrup at a grocery store and would be back within a few minutes.


That, plus as you mentioned the lack of track/footprints in the snow in the driveway, sidewalk after the snow had fallen.

grayjay
04-04-2010, 06:06 PM
Love the cough syrup in there. :D Poor Mr. Lovesick. He's full of holes.

dovebar
04-04-2010, 10:11 PM
These are all excellent points.

However, I agree with the poster that you only need 1 person to hang a jury. Not all people think rationally or follow evidence and could get the unlikeliness of the "other person" theory.

It's not that uncommon for police to have a prime suspect and let that person remain free until they have all the pieces of the prosecution in place. It's just infuriating for us on the outside, especially as everyone is worried about the boys. In fact, they sometimes let the person remain free for specific reasons that I'm not going to go into (even if they might be obvious).

I just hope there's justice for Susan and that it isn't too long in coming.

Bartleby
04-05-2010, 01:08 AM
But you still have some problems with this scenario. Why would a love-struck neighbor be watching the house at 12:30 am the night before work? How would he be so lucky dumb-ass Josh would spontaneously take both boys camping at that ridiculous hour? How would he know where the carpet cleaner was and how to use it? How would he lock the door behind him without using Susan's keys? How would he get her body out of the house without anybody seeing him or leaving heavy footprints? Remember, there were no tire tracks in the driveway the next morning which was what led the family to think nobody had left the house that morning.

I see where this defense might be tried, but there are just too many holes in it for it to work.

Possible because he got woken by the van alarm at 11:45pm? I can't count the number of times I've been woken in the night by car alarms, and took a while to get back to sleep. If a neighbor was woken by the alarm, they might then hear the garage opening and the van leaving and see the Josh driving, the passenger seat empty (no Susan), and put two and two together and go see if Susan is OK.

I don't for a moment believe that's what happened btw.

The most compelling reason for for me to believe that Josh is guilty is that he is acting as if he is guilty, and has done so since receiving a call fro JoVonna at 3pm Monday Dec 7th and failing to go straight home.

Concealment, evasion of questions, solo travel while tellignn nobody where he is going, not appealing to the public or media for help, not talking to close friends and family in Utah for help, and running away from the crime scene because he can't bear the daily reminders of what he did. IMO

RubyRed
05-01-2010, 09:35 PM
I sure hope if Susan was put in a mine shaft or something similar it does not take as long to find her as it did this man, He went missing in the 60's and was just found, and it was suspected all along that he was in a well.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2010/04/28/13756601-qmi.html?cid=rssnewscanada

Or this UID woman who it was estimated went missing in Canada around 1900-1920 and was found in a well in 2006. This woman may never be identified. It seems here if you put them in a well you get away with murder.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/498ufsk.html

grayjay
05-02-2010, 12:38 AM
I shudder to think it. I still want to think they're looking in those old mines. Has anyone talked to LE recently, who might know how many people are still assigned to the case? It's going on five months, now.

nitasch
05-03-2010, 02:45 PM
In regards to the boys seeing anything that happened that night...I don't think it is a stretch to anticipate that little kids will sleep through most things in the middle of the night especially if they are in a warm environment.

I always preferred to travel at night with my kids because they would fall asleep shortly after getting on the road, and sleep till we got to our destination, and would typically have to be carried in from the vehicle because they were still asleep.

If they really did go sledding earlier in the evening, they would be worn out and ready to sleep... load them in the car near midnight (probably already asleep) get on the road, they would zonk out pretty fast. Travel a couple hours, make a stop, for the kids to remain sleeping is not hard to fathom. JMO.