PDA

View Full Version : Hand off of Gabriel at Raymond Rimkus Park


Pages : [1] 2

Litlred
03-30-2010, 10:30 PM
Kelli stated on Gabe's FB that the hand off took place at Raymond Rimkus Park in Leon Valley. Thanks for bringing that to our attention SC!

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Facebook & MySpace Discussions

Litlred
03-30-2010, 10:32 PM
http://www.leonvalleytexas.gov/parks.htm

kissdegirl
03-30-2010, 10:35 PM
omg..this is big...is this not big?! I'm so excited right now, but FB is acting horrible. Ugh.

Litlred
03-30-2010, 10:37 PM
omg..this is big...is this not big?! I'm so excited right now, but FB is acting horrible. Ugh.

This is huge news!

danisisa
03-30-2010, 10:38 PM
Anyways, I noticed that park is at an intersection. THere has got to be a traffic or surveillance camera of some sort that caught something or an employee of the park. I looked at the calendar for December and there was one meeting on the 15th, but I failed to see where it was located at.

Litlred
03-30-2010, 10:40 PM
Anyways, I noticed that park is at an intersection. THere has got to be a traffic or surveillance camera of some sort that caught something or an employee of the park. I looked at the calendar for December and there was one meeting on the 15th, but I failed to see where it was located at.

This looks like a big park, but someone had to seen them.

Litlred
03-30-2010, 10:42 PM
22 acre park located at the corner of Poss and Evers Roads. Open daily to the public from sunrise until dusk.

http://www.leonvalleytexas.gov/parks.htm

TXHOPE
03-30-2010, 10:42 PM
Its only 4 miles from the Homegate, a straight shot down Huebner. She knew where she was going before going to SA. Look at the map!

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=10950+Laureate+Drive+Building+C,+San+Antonio ,+Texas+78249&daddr=6440+Evers+Rd,+Leon+Valley,+Bexar,+Texas+782 38&hl=en&geocode=FWXTwgEdC7Uf-im3K__QOmdchjEYp3GFoy77AQ%3BFXkmwgEdS0Yf-il10eb_gl1chjHEh4eTVATZfw&mra=pe&mrcr=0&sll=30.141664,-92.786451&sspn=8.658977,19.665527&ie=UTF8&z=13

Litlred
03-30-2010, 10:44 PM
Its only 4 miles from the Homegate, a straight shot down Huebner. She knew where she was going before going to SA. Look at the map!

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=10950+Laureate+Drive+Building+C,+San+Antonio ,+Texas+78249&daddr=6440+Evers+Rd,+Leon+Valley,+Bexar,+Texas+782 38&hl=en&geocode=FWXTwgEdC7Uf-im3K__QOmdchjEYp3GFoy77AQ%3BFXkmwgEdS0Yf-il10eb_gl1chjHEh4eTVATZfw&mra=pe&mrcr=0&sll=30.141664,-92.786451&sspn=8.658977,19.665527&ie=UTF8&z=13

Yep, its a straight shot.

kissdegirl
03-30-2010, 10:47 PM
Now the post on FB is gone?

Gypsy Road
03-30-2010, 10:47 PM
Is this true??? Oh my gosh.....I hope so!! It's encouraging. I don't post much in the Gabe forum, but I've been following this case ever since he was reported missing. I continue to pray for him every single day. I hope this leads somewhere and he is found safely and can be returned to Logan and his family!!!

TXHOPE
03-30-2010, 10:52 PM
Now the post on FB is gone?

That's weird. Was she not supposed to say anything about it? I wonder how this was confirmed. PI or LE or EJ?

danisisa
03-30-2010, 10:53 PM
I think we should go private with this thread to be on the safe side.

kissdegirl
03-30-2010, 10:54 PM
That's weird. Was she not supposed to say anything about it? I wonder how this was confirmed. PI or LE or EJ?

I was wondering too. I would love to hear that it was EJ..that girl needs to talk.

southern_comfort
03-30-2010, 10:55 PM
That's weird. Was she not supposed to say anything about it? I wonder how this was confirmed. PI or LE or EJ?

There was a question about whether the info was revealed inadvertently and BeanE got confirmation that it was ok. So, I don't know... confusing!

southern_comfort
03-30-2010, 10:56 PM
I was wondering too. I would love to hear that it was EJ..that girl needs to talk.

I'd like her to talk, too. Unfortunately, I would not take that as confirmation of anything!

Litlred
03-30-2010, 11:00 PM
RAYMOND RIMKUS PARK FACILITIES RESERVATIONS CALENDAR

DECEMBER 2 0 0 9



Nothing reserved on 12/26/09 or 12/27/09. Looked like a slow month for the park.

http://www.leonvalleytexas.gov/parks.htm

TXHOPE
03-30-2010, 11:02 PM
We are all waiting for BeanE to appear, huh? I think if there was problem she would of already stopped us.

Litlred
03-30-2010, 11:04 PM
If EJ handed him off on 12/27/09 that would have been a Sunday. I wonder what time this occurred?

TXHOPE
03-30-2010, 11:06 PM
RAYMOND RIMKUS PARK FACILITIES RESERVATIONS CALENDAR

DECEMBER 2 0 0 9



Nothing reserved on 12/26/09 or 12/27/09. Looked like a slow month for the park.

http://www.leonvalleytexas.gov/parks.htm

It was so cold that week. I doubt very many people were there. Did she mention the 26th or 27th? I didn't get to see it.

Litlred
03-30-2010, 11:07 PM
It was so cold that week. I doubt very many people were there. Did she mention the 26th or 27th? I didn't get to see it.

No mention of a date.

Litlred
03-30-2010, 11:14 PM
It was so cold that week. I doubt very many people were there. Did she mention the 26th or 27th? I didn't get to see it.

If she handed him off on the 27th, it would have had to have been before 11:45 a.m. since she was seen on surveillance video at that time in the Motel 6 parking lot.

Per TPS she heard Gabriel babbling in the background on 12/26/09. Also, correct me if I am wrong but didn't EJ take the pictures of Gabriel on 12/26?

sleuth2001
03-30-2010, 11:17 PM
just to throw this in here...someone posted that this park is like 4 miles from the hotel...it is also 4.4 miles from the EZ Wash she was reported to be at and it is a pretty easy route...hope this is helpful!

momtective
03-30-2010, 11:18 PM
I hope this is true...I'm sitting on pins and needles here! Hurry up BeanE and give us the scoop. :dance:

BeanE
03-30-2010, 11:21 PM
Hang on, everybody. I'm taking you all for a ride to the Parking Lot.

Litlred
03-30-2010, 11:23 PM
Looking at the time line she was on surveillance with Gabe around 3pm 12/26/09 outside of 6 flags. Since the parks closes at dusk, I'm leaning to an early morning hand off on 12/27/09.

kissdegirl
03-30-2010, 11:25 PM
Oh crud...not the lot!

Here's another map, on the way to Guys and Dolls. I marked a library on the route, and as far as I know there is no connection there...just a personal point of interest.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Raymond+Rimkus+Park&daddr=9050+Wellwood+Street+to:10151+Culebra+Road&geocode=FdAgwgEdGEAf-iEiGJ67dItnDQ%3BFabhwQEdw4Ye-inXx6J_tUJchjH6qsRJiZMR4w%3B&gl=us&hl=en&mra=ls&sll=29.48735,-98.66066&sspn=0.034442,0.076818&ie=UTF8&ll=29.48862,-98.653107&spn=0.068884,0.153637&z=13

BeanE
03-30-2010, 11:27 PM
We may have a glitch. I'm waiting to hear back from Sandy. Please keep all discussion of this here in the Parking Lot for now.

Thanks, my friends.

BeanE

Litlred
03-30-2010, 11:28 PM
According to the timeline EJ was captured on surveillance with Gabe on 12/26/09 around 3pm outside of 6 Flags. The Raymond Rimkus Park closes at dusk. What time was dusk in San Antonio on 12/26/09? She could of handed him off early the morning of 12/27/09 before 11:45am.

BeanE
03-30-2010, 11:29 PM
If she handed him off on the 27th, it would have had to have been before 11:45 a.m. since she was seen on surveillance video at that time in the Motel 6 parking lot.

Per TPS she heard Gabriel babbling in the background on 12/26/09. Also, correct me if I am wrong but didn't EJ take the pictures of Gabriel on 12/26?

I never saw where TPS gave a date for Gabe babbling. Do you remember where that came from, Litl?

Litlred
03-30-2010, 11:30 PM
I never saw where TPS gave a date for Gabe babbling. Do you remember where that came from, Litl?

I found it on the time line. TPS was on NG and stated it was on 12/26/09. I will go find it.

sleuth2001
03-30-2010, 11:35 PM
suspense is getting to me...no fingernails left!! come on BeanE

BeanE
03-30-2010, 11:36 PM
lol. I'm here. I'm sorry. I can't give any more info than what Kelli put on FB.

kissdegirl
03-30-2010, 11:42 PM
That Leon Valley Community and Conference on the map across from the park, has a library. http://www.leonvalley.lib.tx.us/

Litlred
03-30-2010, 11:42 PM
I never saw where TPS gave a date for Gabe babbling. Do you remember where that came from, Litl?

Per TPS it could have been the 23rd or the 26th re: hearing Gabriel in the background.

Timeline - Saturday, December 26, 2009 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

BeanE
03-30-2010, 11:50 PM
Per TPS it could have been the 23rd or the 26th re: hearing Gabriel in the background.

Timeline - Saturday, December 26, 2009 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94743)

Sorry, Litl. I didn't write it as clearly as I should have. Tammi talked on the phone with EJ a number of times during that week. The babbling could have been any of those days. But the last day it could have been was 12/26, because Tammi and EJ didn't talk by phone on 12/27 or after.

sleuth2001
03-31-2010, 12:00 AM
we were talking about this earlier then for some reason I did not have access to it...well now it isn't top secret..it is on the san antonio fox news and the PI is sitting in the park talking about it....no offense but I was following that thread and contributed concerning the laundromat being 4.4 miles from the park and a pretty easy route..then all of a sudden it became top secret...but anyway..go to the link and it is listed under top stories
http://www.foxsanantonio.com/

TXHOPE
03-31-2010, 12:23 AM
According to the video this info was found from EJ's journal. A journal entry? From jail?

Litlred
03-31-2010, 12:27 AM
Some nearby places close to the park per google maps....

http://maps.google.com/maps?rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS260US260&q=6440%20Evers%20Road&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

social services...

City of Leon Valley: Leon Valley Community and Conference Centers‎ - more info
6427 Evers Road, San Antonio, TX 78238-1453 43 ft

Vocational Rehabilitation Services‎ - 5309 Wurzbach Road, San Antonio, TX 78238-2431 1.3 mi
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Presbyterian Children's Homes & Services‎ - 6355 Whitby Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-2129 1.5 mi

http://www.pchas.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Casey Family Program‎ - 2840 Babcock Road, San Antonio, TX 78229-4814 1.5 mi

Texas Industries For the Blind‎ - 5503 Grissom Road, San Antonio, TX 78238-3036 1.4 mi

Volunteers of America‎ -6487 Whitby Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-2131 1.7 mi

YMCA‎ - 7111 Huebner Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-3121 0.6 mi

Easter Seals‎ - 2203 Babcock Road, San Antonio, TX 78229-4498 1.9 mi

Disability Benefits Assistance‎ - 7272 Wurzbach Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-4801 1.8 mi

momtective
03-31-2010, 12:29 AM
A journal entry? From jail?

Maybe she had the journal with her when she was arrested in Fl. or maybe it was left behind in the hotel room in SA. I would give my eye-teeth to see what else is written in it,

momtective
03-31-2010, 12:32 AM
Some nearby places close to the park per google maps....

http://maps.google.com/maps?rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS260US260&q=6440%20Evers%20Road&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

social services...

City of Leon Valley: Leon Valley Community and Conference Centers‎ - more info
6427 Evers Road, San Antonio, TX 78238-1453 43 ft

Vocational Rehabilitation Services‎ - 5309 Wurzbach Road, San Antonio, TX 78238-2431 1.3 mi
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Presbyterian Children's Homes & Services‎ - 6355 Whitby Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-2129 1.5 mi

http://www.pchas.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Casey Family Program‎ - 2840 Babcock Road, San Antonio, TX 78229-4814 1.5 mi

Texas Industries For the Blind‎ - 5503 Grissom Road, San Antonio, TX 78238-3036 1.4 mi

Volunteers of America‎ -6487 Whitby Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-2131 1.7 mi

YMCA‎ - 7111 Huebner Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-3121 0.6 mi

Easter Seals‎ - 2203 Babcock Road, San Antonio, TX 78229-4498 1.9 mi

Disability Benefits Assistance‎ - 7272 Wurzbach Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-4801 1.8 mi

Adoption Services and Attorney's near the park google map http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Huebner+Rd&daddr=6440+Evers+Rd,+Leon+Valley,+Bexar,+Texas+782 38+to:adoption&geocode=FfbHwgEdHMUf-g%3BFXkmwgEdS0Yf-il10eb_gl1chjHEh4eTVATZfw%3B&hl=en&mra=ls&sll=29.541801,-98.581867&sspn=0.033229,0.077162&ie=UTF8&ll=29.515065,-98.586674&spn=0.065878,0.154324&z=13


Methodist Mission Home‎
6487 Whitby Rd, San Antonio, TX 78240
1.5 mi

Methodist Family & Rehab Services‎
6487 Whitby Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-2131
1.7 mi

State of Texas: Adoption Services‎
4204 Woodcock Drive, San Antonio, TX 78228-1322
2.9 mi

Adoption Services Associates‎
5370 Prue Road, San Antonio, TX 78240
3.2 mi

Zuflacht Linda‎
5370 Prue Rd, San Antonio, TX 78240-1621
3.3 mi

Texas Cradle Society‎
6487 Whitby Road, San Antonio, TX 78240
1.7 mi

Blaschke-DeVeau Patricia‎
7551 Callaghan Road, San Antonio, TX 78229-2861
3.3 mi

Bass James R‎
9002 Wurzbach Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-1038
3.4 mi

Jura Michele K atty‎
9002 Wurzbach Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-1038
3.4 mi

TXHOPE
03-31-2010, 12:32 AM
I hope we can trust EJs journal. She could of wrote anything in that to cover anything up.

Litlred
03-31-2010, 12:35 AM
Across the road from the park there are pregnancy related services at the school...

http://www.nisd.net/compensatory/SAP/

Litlred
03-31-2010, 12:38 AM
pregnancy and womens clinics near the park on google maps

http://maps.google.com/maps?rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS260US260&q=6440%20Evers%20Road&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl..

Reproductive Services of San Antonio‎ - 5838 Joiner, San Antonio, TX 78238 1.5 mi

Therapeutic Body Concepts school of massage‎ - 5704 Evers Road, San Antonio, TX 78238 1.2 mi

San Antonio Birth Center‎ - 7272 Wurzbach Road, San Antonio, TX 78240 1.8 mi

Agape Pregnancy Help Center‎ - 3212 Northwestern, San Antonio, TX 78238-4043 2.6 mi

Alamo Women's Clinic‎ -8600 Wurzbach Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-4333 3.1 mi

All Women's Medical Center‎ - 8600 Wurzbach Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-4334 3.1 mi

Planned Parenthood‎ - 104 Babcock Road, San Antonio, TX 78201-2900 5.2 mi

Pregnancy Care Center‎ -8131 West Ih 10, San Antonio, TX 78230 3.8 mi

A Woman's Choice Clinic‎ - 920 San Pedro Avenue #100, San Antonio, TX 78212 8.0 mi

momtective
03-31-2010, 12:41 AM
Well one thing is very obvious...adoption is a big business in SA!

Litlred
03-31-2010, 12:44 AM
Lots of churches nearby.

http://maps.google.com/maps?rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS260US260&q=6440%20Evers%20Road&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

St John Baptist Church‎ - 6800 Evers Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-3100 0.5 mi

Faith Assembly of God Church‎ - 8023 Huebner Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-2206 0.8 mi

Freedom Baptist Church‎ - 6416 Grissom Road, Leon Valley, TX 78238-2234 0.7

Restoration Center The‎ - 6401 Bandera Road, San Antonio, TX 78238-1512 0.9 mi

Lutheran Churches Missouri Synod: Shepherd of the Hills Lutheran Church‎ -
6914 Wurzbach Road, San Antonio, TX 78240-3897 1.4 mi

Church On the Rock-San Antonio‎ - 6401 Bandera Road, San Antonio, TX 78238-1512 0.9 mi

Church of God Central Spanish‎ - 7625 Linkmeadow Street, San Antonio, TX 78240-3031 0.7 mi

Trinity United Meth School‎ - 5319 Newcome Drive, San Antonio, TX 78229-4950 1

Litlred
03-31-2010, 12:45 AM
Well one thing is very obvious...adoption is a big business in SA!

It's amazing. I can not believe how many adoption places.

momtective
03-31-2010, 12:45 AM
So now I'm wondering..did EJ actually hand Gabriel over to a couple or did she hand him over to a representative of an agency or an adoption facilitator such as those that work for adoption associates and lifetime adoptions online?

Litlred
03-31-2010, 12:48 AM
Some pictures of the playground at the park.

http://playspacefinder.kaboom.org/playspaces/60160-raymond-rimkus-park

TXHOPE
03-31-2010, 12:50 AM
I'm confused about this, excited but confused. It came from EJ's journal. Ok if the journal was found in the room or when she was arrested than LE would of had it this whole time. That's what made me think maybe she wrote this journal in jail or maybe LE has had the journal all this time. What makes her journal the truth though? They have to have some other evidence.

TXHOPE
03-31-2010, 12:51 AM
Does anyone know how Yami found out about Raymond Russell Park? I wonder if someone told her about the journal before ( maybe an LE connection) and the name of the park was lost in translation since it's so similiar Raymond Rimkus Park.

BeanE
03-31-2010, 12:56 AM
Don't forget Ken's theory.

Private investigator Ken Gamble, who is working with the McQuearys in the search for Gabriel, said there is no evidence indicating that Johnson sold Gabriel in an underground adoption, but said there are indications she gave him to someone she entrusted who has the boy in hiding.

TXHOPE
03-31-2010, 01:01 AM
Don't forget Ken's theory.

Private investigator Ken Gamble, who is working with the McQuearys in the search for Gabriel, said there is no evidence indicating that Johnson sold Gabriel in an underground adoption, but said there are indications she gave him to someone she entrusted who has the boy in hiding.

That's what I was just thinking..no underground adoption. I do think its a huge concidence that the park is a direct straight shot from the hotel.That to me looks like planning on where she would stay is involved, which means there was a plan in place for this park prior to check-in.

momtective
03-31-2010, 01:04 AM
Some pictures of the playground at the park.

http://playspacefinder.kaboom.org/playspaces/60160-raymond-rimkus-park

Unfortunately, I don't think Gabriel saw anything at that park other than a table and bench just inside the park from the parking lot.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy72/momtectiveII/Park.jpg

BeanE
03-31-2010, 01:07 AM
That's what I was just thinking..no underground adoption. I do think its a huge concidence that the park is a direct straight shot from the hotel.That to me looks like planning on where she would stay is involved, which means there was a plan in place for this park prior to check-in.

Or she noticed the park during her driving around during the week because of its proximity to the hotel.

TXHOPE
03-31-2010, 01:09 AM
Unfortunately, I don't think Gabriel saw anything at that park other than a table and bench just inside the park from the parking lot.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy72/momtectiveII/Park.jpg

Yep and was handed off to someone who had their own carseat waiting. If this person bought all new things for Gabriel that sounds to me like someone who wants him as their own; not someone who is hiding him for EJ. JMO

TXHOPE
03-31-2010, 01:20 AM
Or she noticed the park during her driving around during the week because of its proximity to the hotel.

That's true but it wasn't so much that it was close it was the straight shot that caught my eye-like she went on google maps herself before she decided where to stay or pulled it up on her GPS in relation to the park. It's just weird seeing that one straight line from point A to point B but it may just be a coincidence and my mind is working over time.

BeanE
03-31-2010, 01:46 AM
Yami Virgin is supposed to have a piece on Fox about this. Not sure if it will be tonight or tomorrow.

BeanE
03-31-2010, 01:48 AM
That's true but it wasn't so much that it was close it was the straight shot that caught my eye-like she went on google maps herself before she decided where to stay or pulled it up on her GPS in relation to the park. It's just weird seeing that one straight line from point A to point B but it may just be a coincidence and my mind is working over time.

No it definitely could be a planned meeting place. I was just thinking not necessarily planned long-term, pre-SA.

kappy50
03-31-2010, 09:12 AM
Looking at the time line she was on surveillance with Gabe around 3pm 12/26/09 outside of 6 flags. Since the parks closes at dusk, I'm leaning to an early morning hand off on 12/27/09.

mom..just catching up. I didn't think there was a confirmed surveillance at six flags? could be and I just missed it. And didn't housekeeping say EJ was at the hotel between 1-3 ??? Still doesn't mean she couldn't be at six flags at 3....now I could see an early morning handoff on the 27th for sure

BeanE
03-31-2010, 09:26 AM
The earliest day she could have given Gabe away was Dec 26. We know this because of the hotel pics and sighting at the hotel on Dec 26.

If she wrote in the journal what she did with Gabe at the park, then the journal page about the park could not have been written before Dec 26, but could have been written up to the time of her arrest.

So, when did she write this particular page? Why did she write this particular page? Did she write what she was going to do? Or what she had done?

If it was what she was going to do, it was a plan. If it was what she had done, why was she writing it down? Did she write it just afterwards? Did she write it on the bus?

Did she have the journal when she was arrested? Did she give it to someone before she was arrested? Did she hide it or throw it away on the trip to FL and somebody found it?

Why am I asking these questions? I have no idea. I haven't had coffee and I'm losing my mind but I feel I have to do something to help Gabe. Hopefully I'll do better than this as the day goes on.

Good morning, everybody :)

kissdegirl
03-31-2010, 09:30 AM
Even with the proximity to all those adoption places, it seems possible EJ could have "run into" any number of desperate couples if she stayed in the area long enough.
The only thing is, what complete stranger would just take a child like that? I don't feel it was competely random though, if they brought their own stuff for Gabriel. I mean, how many people like TS could one mother run into at random? The chances of that are not great.

kissdegirl
03-31-2010, 09:37 AM
Also, is it possible LE found the journal during the landfill search? I mean, they so abruptly called off the search and went with the missing person's case?

BeanE
03-31-2010, 09:39 AM
mom..just catching up. I didn't think there was a confirmed surveillance at six flags? could be and I just missed it. And didn't housekeeping say EJ was at the hotel between 1-3 ??? Still doesn't mean she couldn't be at six flags at 3....now I could see an early morning handoff on the 27th for sure

Questions to the family thread - they no longer believe she went to Six Flags.

Morning of the 27th she was seen shopping, no info on where, so she shopped, probably packed, drove to the bus station by 11:30 or so. Still time in there for a handoff, but nobody saw Gabe 12/27. He was seen outside the hotel with Elizabeth afternoon of 12/26 though. But not after that.

Based on info we have, afternoon/evening/night 12/26 is our most likely handoff time.

Hard to say if she would have gone to a park after dark. We know from reviewing the Craigslist ads that she engaged in behavior that was risky to both herself and Gabe. We know she met Tammi after dark at the church on the 18th. So being in a park after dark in a strange city might not have bothered her. There's a natural tendency though (I think) not to want to drive around a strange city after dark though.

I wish we had a sighting of her somewhere the evening of 12/26.

She said in her jail interview with the reporter that she was crying and a wreck emotionally and upset at the park. I'm thinking it was the phone calls from Tammi and Tammi's 2 friends that had her upset. Somehow I always think of those phone calls being in the afternoon. No idea why. I'll look back and see if I can find anything that indicates time of day for those phone calls, but I don't think there is anything. We could probably say that the handoff was most likely after those phone calls though(?)

Elizabeth also went to the Jack in the Box alone on 12/26 didn't she? Would you give away your baby and then go eat Jack in the Box? Or would you have Jack in the Box for lunch, have upsetting phone calls, and then go hand off your baby?

BeanE
03-31-2010, 09:41 AM
Even with the proximity to all those adoption places, it seems possible EJ could have "run into" any number of desperate couples if she stayed in the area long enough.
The only thing is, what complete stranger would just take a child like that? I don't feel it was competely random though, if they brought their own stuff for Gabriel. I mean, how many people like TS could one mother run into at random? The chances of that are not great.

I'm always thinking in terms of likelihood and probability in these cases, and the chances of, as you say, not just one, but two, random strangers in less than a year, seem really low.

BeanE
03-31-2010, 09:43 AM
Also, is it possible LE found the journal during the landfill search? I mean, they so abruptly called off the search and went with the missing person's case?

Oh good sleuthing, kiss. That would account for the apparent change in attitude on LE's part. Also would account for McManus' difficulty saying they didn't find any evidence.

TXHOPE
03-31-2010, 10:18 AM
I keep thinking of the picture of Gabriel with the hat on the 26th. I remember us talking about why would she put a hat on him unless she was going to take him outside. I wonder if that was right before the handoff.

kappy50
03-31-2010, 11:06 AM
I keep thinking of the picture of Gabriel with the hat on the 26th. I remember us talking about why would she put a hat on him unless she was going to take him outside. I wonder if that was right before the handoff.

TX...I know someone posted somewhere what the temperatures were that day....I'll go back and see where I saw that. And if I remember correctly, that looked like a picture where he just got up...but gotta go back and look at that as well...

TXHOPE
03-31-2010, 11:12 AM
TX...I know someone posted somewhere what the temperatures were that day....I'll go back and see where I saw that. And if I remember correctly, that looked like a picture where he just got up...but gotta go back and look at that as well...

It was really cold. That was the bad pic where he looked super groggy. Maybe right after nap time? She was seen with Gabriel that afternoon. I wonder if he was wearing his hat when they were seen and they were on their way out.

kappy50
03-31-2010, 11:13 AM
Low was 33...

BeanE
03-31-2010, 11:23 AM
New Details in Baby Gabriel Case
Wednesday, March 31 2010, 08:47 AM CDT

Ken Gamble, the private investigator in the baby Gabriel case, is asking for the public's help. Gamble says that after looking at a handwritten journal kept by the baby's mother they know that she went to Raymond Rimkus park on the morning of December 27th. Around 10 a.m. Johnson says she met a couple who had been sent by a third party she trusted. If you wish to contact the family's private investigator in this case you can go to our links section.

http://www.foxsanantonio.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/vid_1671.shtml

YellowSubmarine
03-31-2010, 11:43 AM
Holy breaking news, Batman! This is huge if it's definite. There may have been someone at the park that day or driving by that saw something and didn't realize it's importance til now. I hope this is all over the local news there!

Across the road from the park there are pregnancy related services at the school...

Agape Pregnancy Help Center‎ - 3212 Northwestern, San Antonio, TX 78238-4043 2.6 mi

Lots of churches nearby.

These jumped out to me -- remember the emphasis TS seemed to put on their church program for helping young mothers? Connections? . . . .


Why after Mr. Gamble said they had evidence EJ handed him off to someone she trusted is it now being said a trusted person connected her with a third party? I hope this isn't leading us down a dead end road!

BeanE
03-31-2010, 11:48 AM
Holy breaking news, Batman! This is huge if it's definite. There may have been someone at the park that day or driving by that saw something and didn't realize it's importance til now. I hope this is all over the local news there!







These jumped out to me -- remember the emphasis TS seemed to put on their church program for helping young mothers? Connections? . . . .


Why after Mr. Gamble said they had evidence EJ handed him off to someone she trusted is it now being said a trusted person connected her with a third party? I hope this isn't leading us down a dead end road!

It means the same thing. Just put them together, Yellow.

Video for that news story should be up soon.

YellowSubmarine
03-31-2010, 11:53 AM
It means the same thing. Just put them together, Yellow.

Video for that news story should be up soon.

Ahhh, thanks. Sometimes ya just think tooooo hard, ya know? I was thinking they were saying someone close to her was holding Gabe for the time being and then turned around and said she handed him off to strangers. But, yes, I see how it's the same.

YellowSubmarine
03-31-2010, 12:15 PM
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=6440+evers+road+san+antonio+texas&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.545434,92.724609&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=6440+Evers+Rd,+San+Antonio,+Bexar,+Texas+782 38&ll=29.501003,-98.613195&spn=0.010907,0.022638&t=h&z=16

Kamille
03-31-2010, 12:30 PM
Okay so who is the trusted third party? HG? TPS? Someone completely not in the scope of this so far?

Come on EJ...just spill it. :praying:

TXHOPE
03-31-2010, 12:44 PM
Gamble says that after looking at a handwritten journal kept by the baby's mother they know that she went to Raymond Rimkus park on the morning of December 27th. Around 10 a.m.

We have a date and a specific time!!! Saweeeeet! We're getting closer!

kappy50
03-31-2010, 12:50 PM
Should we looking for a BIG BREAKING NEWS STORY soon! I'm sitting here scratching my head and winding my watch!!!!!!

BeanE
03-31-2010, 12:54 PM
Okay so who is the trusted third party? HG? TPS? Someone completely not in the scope of this so far?

Come on EJ...just spill it. :praying:

Sounds like a good poll ;)

kissdegirl
03-31-2010, 01:07 PM
Whoever has him better cough him up....you're going to be in soooooooooooo much trouble. On second thought, we'll go ahead and find him with you so you can be prosecuted to the fullest!

TXHOPE
03-31-2010, 01:11 PM
Whoever has him better cough him up....you're going to be in soooooooooooo much trouble. On second thought, we'll go ahead and find him with you so you can be prosecuted to the fullest!

They are going to be in soooooo much trouble. They just need to give him back today before they get busted. I would rather see Gabriel home safe today with Logan then see the couple get prosecuted. So go put on your ski mask and take Gabriel to the nearest fire station!

kissdegirl
03-31-2010, 01:38 PM
Gamble says that after looking at a handwritten journal kept by the baby's mother they know that she went to Raymond Rimkus park on the morning of December 27th. Around 10 a.m.

We have a date and a specific time!!! Saweeeeet! We're getting closer!

Sunday morning, 10am....lot's of church people headed to Sunday School and the like. I'm sure someone saw something. I think, if they havn't already done it, the churches in the area need to put up posters and send out email prayer chains with his picture.

kissdegirl
03-31-2010, 01:56 PM
New Details in Baby Gabriel Case
Wednesday, March 31 2010, 08:47 AM CDT

Ken Gamble, the private investigator in the baby Gabriel case, is asking for the public's help. Gamble says that after looking at a handwritten journal kept by the baby's mother they know that she went to Raymond Rimkus park on the morning of December 27th. Around 10 a.m. Johnson says she met a couple who had been sent by a third party she trusted. If you wish to contact the family's private investigator in this case you can go to our links section.

http://www.foxsanantonio.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/vid_1671.shtml

Dec 27, at 10am, she hands Gabe over. At 11:45 according to our timeline, she was seen on video footage parking her car at the Motel 6, and sat there for a time. Timeline - Sunday, December 27, 2009 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
I think she may have had the journal on her. There is 1 hour and 45minutes between the time she handed him off, and she showed up at the Motel 6 to head over to the bus station. Accounting for traffic, which is nothing on a Sunday morning, I give her an estimated 45 minutes to get from her hotel room to the Motel 6. So, that leaves an hour to get from the park, to wherever else she went. Could she have gone back to her hotel room, written in her journal, then left it? That seems odd and probably not right in retrospect.
Unless she was sitting in her room writing when a call panicked her? From LE, LM or TS regarding LE/LM? I could see this. Then she suddenly grabs what she needs and heads to the bus station. Maybe she had plans to leave on the bus another day, but decided last minute to leave then?

TXHOPE
03-31-2010, 02:09 PM
Ken Gamble sounds really confident in this journal so that leads me to believe it was found somewhere she didn't want it to be found. Maybe where the journal was found will be in Yami's coverage tonight. If it's an obvious place like the hotel room or grandpas car, I don't think Ken Gamble would have so much trust in it but maybe if there's other evidence to back it up. Kiss your landfill suggestion would explain it.

BeanE
03-31-2010, 02:11 PM
Video up

http://www.foxsanantonio.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/vid_1671.shtml

kissdegirl
03-31-2010, 02:15 PM
Let's assume this journal is to be believed (if Gamble believes it, I will trust him on it). So, what "third party" would EJ trust to send someone to keep Gabriel? In my mind it would have to be TS or if she had been talking with JM, then JM. Either of them might know a couple desperate to adopt.

Prof
03-31-2010, 02:19 PM
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&t=h&msa=0&msid=112629740671339173896.0004806ea89e7eab99646&ll=29.463514,-98.582382&spn=0.277995,0.615921&z=11

Updated EJ in SA map

YellowSubmarine
03-31-2010, 02:20 PM
Unless she was sitting in her room writing when a call panicked her? From LE, LM or TS regarding LE/LM? I could see this. Then she suddenly grabs what she needs and heads to the bus station. Maybe she had plans to leave on the bus another day, but decided last minute to leave then?

Wasn't this around the time she txtd Logan about having killed Gabe? I wonder if her saying that was her way of ignoring the fact she just gave her baby away and to make it easier for her to move on. Her old life was dead, she was "excited to start her new life", as she posted on MySpace. In her eyes, Gabe was dead.

I am convinced someone saw something. They were at a park on a Sunday morning. Churches and the community center right across the street, houses across the street with people out possibly doing yardwork or taking Christmas lights down. They need to be canvassing the neighborhood with their pictures. They need to bring it to the attention of the congregations at the churches. Maybe nearby convenience stores, too.

kissdegirl
03-31-2010, 02:21 PM
Video up

http://www.foxsanantonio.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/vid_1671.shtml

OH that is wonderful! I sound like already saw it....they can turn him over or wait until police kick their door down. Love it!

Sounds like they have even more info, as he says through a third party, which we are not revealing at this time.

And, EJ wrote down directions to the park in her journal.

kissdegirl
03-31-2010, 02:23 PM
Wasn't this around the time she txtd Logan about having killed Gabe? I wonder if her saying that was her way of ignoring the fact she just gave her baby away and to make it easier for her to move on. Her old life was dead, she was "excited to start her new life", as she posted on MySpace. In her eyes, Gabe was dead.

I am convinced someone saw something. They were at a park on a Sunday morning. Churches and the community center right across the street, houses across the street with people out possibly doing yardwork or taking Christmas lights down. They need to be canvassing the neighborhood with their pictures. They need to bring it to the attention of the congregations at the churches. Maybe nearby convenience stores, too.

BBM. I think that too. She killed Gabriel in her mind, so she could move on. She felt since she had moved on, LM should too, with a "just drop it already" attitude. She has no sympathy and is completely selfish.

BeanE
03-31-2010, 02:26 PM
I'm going to transcribe the video. I'll have it ready as soon as possible.

kappy50
03-31-2010, 02:27 PM
Well TPS did say the last time she had contact with her was Dec. 26th ??

Prof
03-31-2010, 02:29 PM
She wrote directions to the park down in her journal -- this means that it was not random, and not her own choice as she had a GPS; she took down directions from a phone call or a face to face meetting

The couple had something to say to identifiy themselves--
seems to be suggested that there was something else written in the journal, a means of identifying the people in the park she was to hand Gabriel off to

Great video!

YellowSubmarine
03-31-2010, 02:30 PM
Video up

http://www.foxsanantonio.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/vid_1671.shtml

:thumb: :applause:

Muchas smoochas BeanE! :blowkiss:

Watching this video leaves me very hopeful! Especially when Mr.Gamble said "they said something to her, that we can't release right now, to identify themselves" in regards to her hand written journal notes. I do believe they have a good idea who these people may be and/or who sent them!

kappy50
03-31-2010, 02:34 PM
It would be interesting to know if he thinks that couple is in the SA/or metro area ??? Since this is only being broadcast locally, noone would know on a national level. I've heard no national news yet.

danisisa
03-31-2010, 02:37 PM
The pressure is on!!! Hopefully, if they were smart, they will fold!! I cannot believe how these people can pass a baby around like the baby has no feelings...G needs to be with his daddy LM. He will never feel safe and secure until he is with him.

YellowSubmarine
03-31-2010, 02:38 PM
This park was chosen for a reason. It wasn't just some random park in the middle of town they chose. I'd bet a boatload these people or the middle man is connected to one of the churches or adoption agency/womens center places. I wonder if TS's church has an affiliation right there.

BeanE
03-31-2010, 02:45 PM
March 31 Fox San Antonio video Ken Gamble Hand Off

Ken's quotes only

"Someone must have seen something."

"We've been able to confirm through the investigation so far that this is the park where Elizabeth handed the baby to the couple."

"That information is supported by her own handwritten notes in her journal. She wrote directions down to the park."

"She arrived. The couple were already sitting in the park. So we assume they were sitting at one of these tables. And they immediately got up and they greeted her. They said something to her which we're not revealing at this point to identify themselves."

"Somebody gave her the confidence to come to this park and give that baby away."

"Someone might just have witnessed this thing and they don't realize what they saw. So it's very important for the public to know that this is the actual park where it happened. Because all these people that live around here - somebody might have seen something."

"They will be identified. And It's only a matter of time. The truth will come out. They can either come forward or they have to wait until the police kick their door down. Because they will be identified. That I can assure you."

http://www.foxsanantonio.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/vid_1671.shtml

YellowSubmarine
03-31-2010, 02:47 PM
TS's church has an affiliation 1.8 miles from the park. Evers Road Christian Church @ 5258 Evers Rd

Kamille
03-31-2010, 02:47 PM
They had a car seat with them in the park according to that video. Someone had to have seen something. A couple sitting on a park bench on a Sunday morning with an empty car seat. I truly hope that people were out and about that day. Is the description of the couple still the same and I wonder why Mr Gamble didn't give that description. Is this the information that EJ gave the FBI right at the beginning or is this new information just coming in and EJ is starting to talk I wonder.

Now if they had the car seat with them on the bench, I would have to assume that it is one of those ones that snap in and out of a base that is mounted in the car? So did anyone see any cars in the parking lot, possible rental car, that had a car seat base in it.

Unfortunately I would think that for the time of year, that park would have been practically empty though.

kissdegirl
03-31-2010, 02:51 PM
They had a car seat with them in the park according to that video. Someone had to have seen something. A couple sitting on a park bench on a Sunday morning with an empty car seat. I truly hope that people were out and about that day. Is the description of the couple still the same and I wonder why Mr Gamble didn't give that description. Is this the information that EJ gave the FBI right at the beginning or is this new information just coming in and EJ is starting to talk I wonder.

Now if they had the car seat with them on the bench, I would have to assume that it is one of those ones that snap in and out of a base that is mounted in the car? So did anyone see any cars in the parking lot, possible rental car, that had a car seat base in it.

Unfortunately I would think that for the time of year, that park would have been practically empty though.

I agree about the park being empty, and it was cold. Hopefully someone on their way to church or something can identify something...like a vehicle, plates, anything.

kissdegirl
03-31-2010, 02:54 PM
TS's church has an affiliation 1.8 miles from the park. Evers Road Christian Church @ 5258 Evers Rd

http://www.erccsa.com/

Sunday school for this church is at 9:45am, service at 10:45am. Just noting that there could be locals from the neighborhood passing by the park at 10am when EJ arrived.

YellowSubmarine
03-31-2010, 02:59 PM
Unfortunately I would think that for the time of year, that park would have been practically empty though.

I don't know, Kamille. The weather was nice and it's right after Christmas. Kids out playing with new toys, quality family time with a walk in the park - plus, it was a Sunday right? Churchgoers would have been around with the nearby churches, too.

Prof
03-31-2010, 03:17 PM
I agree with Yellow, unless it was raining that day -- everywhere I have lived the weekend after Christmas is a busy time for neighborhoods and parks --children riding bikes and playing with other new toys
Sunday @ 10 am is church time, breakfast time, family gatherings with those relatives visiting from out of town -- someone has to have seen something

YellowSubmarine
03-31-2010, 03:33 PM
Stores very near the park --

WalMart --

5025 Northwest Loop 410, San Antonio, TX‎
8030 Bandera Road, San Antonio, TX‎

Target --

11311 Bandera Road, San Antonio, TX‎
4522 Fredericksburg Road, San Antonio, TX‎

Babys R Us --

6955 Northwest Loop 410, San Antonio, TX‎

I'd think it would be very likely they stopped to get items for Gabe, probably after the hand-off to see how big he was and all.

TXHOPE
03-31-2010, 03:49 PM
Is there anyone in SA that could drop flyers off at some of these locations?

rekabal
03-31-2010, 03:51 PM
mom..just catching up. I didn't think there was a confirmed surveillance at six flags? could be and I just missed it. And didn't housekeeping say EJ was at the hotel between 1-3 ??? Still doesn't mean she couldn't be at six flags at 3....now I could see an early morning handoff on the 27th for sure

That's what I thought too. I thought the 6 flags sighting was not real.

BeanE
03-31-2010, 04:02 PM
Private Investigator Breaks Silence in Missing Baby Case
Updated: Wednesday, 31 Mar 2010, 1:32 PM MDT
Published : Wednesday, 31 Mar 2010, 1:01 PM MDT
<snipped>
Ken Gamble is the private investigator hired by Gabriel Johnson's father, Logan McQueary. Gamble believes Gabriel's mother, Elizabeth Johnson, did not hurt her baby, but rather brought him to a San Antonio, Texas park as she was told to do.

"We have been able to confirm through the investigation so far that this is the park where Elizabeth handed the baby to a couple." said Gamble. "That information is supported by her own handwritten notes in her journal. She wrote down directions to the park...she arrived..the couple was already sitting in the park so we now know they were sitting at one of those tables..they immediately got up and they greeted her. They said something to her which we are not revealing at this point to identify themselves."

Gamble is asking anyone in San Antonio who saw the meeting to come forward. He says he's confident the mystery couple will be found.

*Video Included In Article!

Article:
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/missing_baby_johnson_case_033110

scratchthatitch
03-31-2010, 04:11 PM
Sorry, I don't post much on this thread, but after reading the developments today, my thought is that the term "journal" might be a regional term for Gamble. My husband is Aussie and I just asked him what he calls his binder for work that details his appointments and he said "my journal". If this is the case, this may not have been a journal or diary in the sense we are used to, but more an appointment book of sorts. I'm leaning toward EJ writing down info before leaving-say while she was on the phone or speaking with someone- with directions and information on how she will identify the couple that will be meeting with her. Gamble may be relating the story not from a writing EJ made after the exhange, but rather his interpretation of how that meeting went from notes EJ took. KWIM? I also think that because Gamble uses the term "someone she trusted" I think the notes had a name on it-maybe a name that was used thru-out her writing that implied some type of feeling of trust for the person. Probably only a first name and that's why they don't have all the missing pieces of the puzzle yet. I also think that this record could have been found in the landfill search...totally speculating here.

I sincerely hope they are on a hot trail and getting closer to Gabriel. Shine your light little boy-they are looking for you and no one's giving up until you are found!!!

BeanE
03-31-2010, 04:14 PM
Maybe we should take a peek at the pics from the hotel with that book on the bed.

scratchthatitch
03-31-2010, 04:20 PM
I feel in my heart that they at least have a first name. It could be an alias, so that may be why they are not releasing it..

AnnieOakley
03-31-2010, 04:34 PM
I agree about the park being empty, and it was cold. Hopefully someone on their way to church or something can identify something...like a vehicle, plates, anything.

Runners! Runners are out there, rain or shine, any weather. Sunday is a perfect day for most people's long run.
What about posting a flyer at the local running/sports goods store or ask the local running club to email it to their members?

SondraK
03-31-2010, 05:09 PM
Runners! Runners are out there, rain or shine, any weather. Sunday is a perfect day for most people's long run.
What about posting a flyer at the local running/sports goods store or ask the local running club to email it to their members?

Good thinking, Annie

Praying these people are not in a position where they can run. Feeling so much more hopeful today:dance::dance::dance::woohoo:

BeanE
03-31-2010, 05:18 PM
Post Fliers for Gabe - In Your Town or Online! - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

kissdegirl
03-31-2010, 06:51 PM
Maybe we should take a peek at the pics from the hotel with that book on the bed.

I really think that book on the bed with Gabriel is a board book. My kids have tons, and it looks just like them...the back cover is up.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii211/kissdegirl77/craigslist/12-1.jpg

kissdegirl
03-31-2010, 07:09 PM
The color screams Curious George. Here's one of his books I found, you can click the picture, and then select to see the back cover.
Amazon.com: Curious George in the Big City (0046442152525): H. A. Rey: Books

momtective
03-31-2010, 07:30 PM
Private Investigator Breaks Silence in Missing Baby Case
Updated: Wednesday, 31 Mar 2010, 1:32 PM MDT
Published : Wednesday, 31 Mar 2010, 1:01 PM MDT
<snipped>
Ken Gamble is the private investigator hired by Gabriel Johnson's father, Logan McQueary. Gamble believes Gabriel's mother, Elizabeth Johnson, did not hurt her baby, but rather brought him to a San Antonio, Texas park as she was told to do.

"We have been able to confirm through the investigation so far that this is the park where Elizabeth handed the baby to a couple." said Gamble. "That information is supported by her own handwritten notes in her journal. She wrote down directions to the park...she arrived..the couple was already sitting in the park so we now know they were sitting at one of those tables..they immediately got up and they greeted her. They said something to her which we are not revealing at this point to identify themselves."

Gamble is asking anyone in San Antonio who saw the meeting to come forward. He says he's confident the mystery couple will be found.

*Video Included In Article!

Article:
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local/missing_baby_johnson_case_033110

BBM
I wonder if they said "Hi are you Elizabeth? We're Tammi & Jacks friends/relatives!"

BeanE
03-31-2010, 08:25 PM
BBM
I wonder if they said "Hi are you Elizabeth? We're Tammi & Jacks friends/relatives!"

:floorlaugh:

code word colonics

momtective
03-31-2010, 08:34 PM
:floorlaugh:

code word colonics

No *****!...:floorlaugh:

kissdegirl
03-31-2010, 09:01 PM
Is it just me, or is she always the butt of everyone's jokes?

:spit:

BeanE
03-31-2010, 09:05 PM
Sorry, I don't post much on this thread, but after reading the developments today, my thought is that the term "journal" might be a regional term for Gamble. My husband is Aussie and I just asked him what he calls his binder for work that details his appointments and he said "my journal". If this is the case, this may not have been a journal or diary in the sense we are used to, but more an appointment book of sorts. I'm leaning toward EJ writing down info before leaving-say while she was on the phone or speaking with someone- with directions and information on how she will identify the couple that will be meeting with her. Gamble may be relating the story not from a writing EJ made after the exhange, but rather his interpretation of how that meeting went from notes EJ took. KWIM? I also think that because Gamble uses the term "someone she trusted" I think the notes had a name on it-maybe a name that was used thru-out her writing that implied some type of feeling of trust for the person. Probably only a first name and that's why they don't have all the missing pieces of the puzzle yet. I also think that this record could have been found in the landfill search...totally speculating here.

I sincerely hope they are on a hot trail and getting closer to Gabriel. Shine your light little boy-they are looking for you and no one's giving up until you are found!!!

This is very helpful. So it may not be a diary, but just a notebook, in which she wrote down the directions to the park. That makes a lot more sense to me than keeping a diary.

kappy50
03-31-2010, 09:07 PM
BBM
I wonder if they said "Hi are you Elizabeth? We're Tammi & Jacks friends/relatives!"

Or "Oh look at BUBBA, he' so cute..."

Ives
03-31-2010, 09:21 PM
Just peeking in, hopeing this will break the case and bring Gabe home!!

iluvmua
03-31-2010, 09:31 PM
I find this new discovery really odd..... If this was found on EJ's person when she was found, would this not go into evidence?

after all the other PI's, Logan, LE etc. This PI happens to find her private journal? and how in the world would he have access to it?

and why didn't LE come forward with this new discovery a LONG time ago?

BeanE
03-31-2010, 09:32 PM
Or "Oh look at BUBBA, he' so cute..."

:floorlaugh:

BeanE
03-31-2010, 09:34 PM
I find this new discovery really odd..... If this was found on EJ's person when she was found, would this not go into evidence?

after all the other PI's, Logan, LE etc. This PI happens to find her private journal? and how in the world would he have access to it?

Maybe EJ mailed it to somebody and they gave it to the PI.

Litlred
03-31-2010, 09:35 PM
TX...I know someone posted somewhere what the temperatures were that day....I'll go back and see where I saw that. And if I remember correctly, that looked like a picture where he just got up...but gotta go back and look at that as well...

12/27/09

9:55 AM 46.2 F

Mean Temperature 45 F
Max Temperature 59 F
Min Temperature 31 F
Dew Point 27 F
Average Humidity 51
Maximum Humidity 83
Minimum Humidity 24
Precipitation 0.00 in - - ()
Sea Level Pressure 30.22 in
Wind Speed 4 mph (NNE)
Max Wind Speed 8 mph
Max Gust Speed -
Visibility 10 miles

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSKF/2009/12/27/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Leon+Valley&req_state=TX&req_statename=Texas

iluvmua
03-31-2010, 09:37 PM
Maybe EJ mailed it to somebody and they gave it to the PI.

Didn't think about that

BeanE
03-31-2010, 09:43 PM
I'm thinking it might be helpful to review some early stuff, like Elizabeth's raw jail interview, her conversation in there with Tammi, and also the Tammi interviews after she got that odd phone call from EJ. If you've got links, please bring them in.

Transcript of jail phone call between the reporter and EJ, and TayJay and EJ:
Websleuths Single Post - AZ - 8 mo. old Gabriel Johnson missing since 12-26-09, #2


Raw audio of jail phone call:
http://www.kpho.com/video/22155911/index.html

Litlred
03-31-2010, 09:44 PM
Runners! Runners are out there, rain or shine, any weather. Sunday is a perfect day for most people's long run.
What about posting a flyer at the local running/sports goods store or ask the local running club to email it to their members?

Yes, runners and bikers. I was watching a youtube video last night from the area with some major bike trails running through. I will see if I can find it.

Litlred
03-31-2010, 09:49 PM
:floorlaugh:

code word colonics

I was reading this thread quietly at my desk today. I had some tears of joy here and there, and then I read this and busted out laughing out loud. Everyone in the office looked at me like I lost my mind. Thanks BeanE. :)

Litlred
03-31-2010, 09:57 PM
I find this new discovery really odd..... If this was found on EJ's person when she was found, would this not go into evidence?

after all the other PI's, Logan, LE etc. This PI happens to find her private journal? and how in the world would he have access to it?

and why didn't LE come forward with this new discovery a LONG time ago?

I do not find this odd. I have no clue how this PI gained access to the journal, but sometimes it takes a new set of eyes on old information. It is easy to miss things when you are inundated with information plus the wrong park was initially reported. This PI seems to be thorough and focused on detail.

BeanE
03-31-2010, 10:00 PM
Strange phone call from 'Baby Gabriel's' mom to Tammi Smith
Posted on January 25, 2010 at 9:11 PM
Updated Monday, Jan 25 at 9:17 PM

http://www.azfamily.com/video/featured-videos/Strange-phone-call-from-Baby-Gabriels-mom-to-one-time-friend-82655967.html

She said that we helped her find a family

:)

ETA: There was another news video on this. If anybody can find it, much appreciated. It was slightly different.

Litlred
03-31-2010, 10:09 PM
Strange phone call from 'Baby Gabriel's' mom to Tammi Smith
Posted on January 25, 2010 at 9:11 PM
Updated Monday, Jan 25 at 9:17 PM

http://www.azfamily.com/video/featured-videos/Strange-phone-call-from-Baby-Gabriels-mom-to-one-time-friend-82655967.html

She said that we helped her find a family

:)

I wish we could hear a recording of this conversation between EJ and TPS (if in fact it was recorded) because I think TPS did throw EJ under the bus and still is. TPS not only lied about Logan threatening her, but the whole CC lie too. I think she is lying in this interview as well. We are only getting her side of the story here and it smells.

WholeLottaRosie
03-31-2010, 11:02 PM
Sorry, I don't post much on this thread, but after reading the developments today, my thought is that the term "journal" might be a regional term for Gamble. My husband is Aussie and I just asked him what he calls his binder for work that details his appointments and he said "my journal". If this is the case, this may not have been a journal or diary in the sense we are used to, but more an appointment book of sorts. I'm leaning toward EJ writing down info before leaving-say while she was on the phone or speaking with someone- with directions and information on how she will identify the couple that will be meeting with her. Gamble may be relating the story not from a writing EJ made after the exhange, but rather his interpretation of how that meeting went from notes EJ took. KWIM? I also think that because Gamble uses the term "someone she trusted" I think the notes had a name on it-maybe a name that was used thru-out her writing that implied some type of feeling of trust for the person. Probably only a first name and that's why they don't have all the missing pieces of the puzzle yet. I also think that this record could have been found in the landfill search...totally speculating here.

I sincerely hope they are on a hot trail and getting closer to Gabriel. Shine your light little boy-they are looking for you and no one's giving up until you are found!!!



Like a Day-Timer or Day Runner, or Filofax. I keep one, I keep notes on conversations and things to do. Someone trying to decipher mine might have some issues, as I use personal codes/shorthand. But, this might be what Elizabeth used and it was found on her when arrested.

Anyway, I think this all has made the search for Gabe look much more promising.

Harmony2
03-31-2010, 11:27 PM
http://www.ksat.com/news/23020125/detail.html

http://www.ksat.com/video/23020105/index.html

BeanE
03-31-2010, 11:47 PM
http://www.ksat.com/news/23020125/detail.html

http://www.ksat.com/video/23020105/index.html

Gamble said Wednesday that Johnson also describes the park in detail: from the jogging trail, to the wooded area, and the park bench where she says she met a couple on the morning of Dec. 27.

Gamble said he believes that the couple was sent there by a third party who she trusted.

"I was able to see the handwritten notes and it's very compelling, because it tells the story of what she did when she was down here," said Gamble. "It gives details about her contacting women's shelters, crisis centers."

snip

Gamble said the couple that met Johnson at the park were in their 30s or 40s. He said the man has short, dark hair and the woman is about 5-feet, 6-inches with long, blond hair.

kissdegirl
04-01-2010, 12:04 AM
He is alive and he is being cared for...omg. My heart is all warm and fuzzy. Come home baby boy!

YellowSubmarine
04-01-2010, 12:12 AM
From jail call transcript:

TPS: Now, let me ask you, why, why do you want to give your child up for adoption? Why, why wouldn't you want the dad to have the baby? Why wouldn't you want Logan to have his son?
EJ: Because I believe he's a very ugly controlling person and he's not capable of raising a child and he's not capable of taking care of the child. He's being supported by his own father and he just wants to make things ugly and I don't want the child to be in the middle of the ugly, ugly custody dispute and it already started off so ugly. And he's just going to make the child miserable and he's gonna make anyone that has anything to do with me, the mother, miserable.


Boy, was that scripted, or what?!?

Litlred
04-01-2010, 12:15 AM
From jail call transcript:




Boy, was that scripted, or what?!?

Yes, it sounds like a crock.

BeanE
04-01-2010, 12:24 AM
Or total confusion. "Hey! You said there was nothing illegal about hiding my baby!"

YellowSubmarine
04-01-2010, 12:44 AM
The interview with TS regarding EJ calling her is such bs it makes my stomach turn every time I watch it.

Does anyone know the date of that? It didn't show it at the link . . . . or, I zipped right passed it. I'm just wondering because the jailhouse call with the reporter was on or just before 1/5 -- everything was fine and dandy with EJ and the S's -- then when EJ's calling her, she's "shocked" as to why she's calling. "Why are you calling me?"

It's ridiculous how smart she thinks she is. WE can see right through her!

BeanE
04-01-2010, 12:55 AM
The interview with TS regarding EJ calling her is such bs it makes my stomach turn every time I watch it.

Does anyone know the date of that? It didn't show it at the link . . . . or, I zipped right passed it. I'm just wondering because the jailhouse call with the reporter was on or just before 1/5 -- everything was fine and dandy with EJ and the S's -- then when EJ's calling her, she's "shocked" as to why she's calling. "Why are you calling me?"

It's ridiculous how smart she thinks she is. WE can see right through her!

The article is Jan 25. I think it says the call was the Friday before?

vjlaw
04-01-2010, 01:24 AM
Gamble said Wednesday that Johnson also describes the park in detail: from the jogging trail, to the wooded area, and the park bench where she says she met a couple on the morning of Dec. 27.

Gamble said he believes that the couple was sent there by a third party who she trusted.

"I was able to see the handwritten notes and it's very compelling, because it tells the story of what she did when she was down here," said Gamble. "It gives details about her contacting women's shelters, crisis centers."

snip

Gamble said the couple that met Johnson at the park were in their 30s or 40s. He said the man has short, dark hair and the woman is about 5-feet, 6-inches with long, blond hair.

Isn't this the description that came from EJ in a jail conversation and also that she met the couple in the park? So, maybe she was talking, at least some.

kappy50
04-01-2010, 09:33 AM
Good morning, my friend. We only have a little about that conversation on the 18th, all from Tammi. It would be great if Elizabeth jotted down a few notes in that journal.

I'm not sure Elizabeth told Tammi she was taking off. I think her emotional state was one of high frustration towards Logan. Tammi has an irritating personality. If I was upset and frustrating, I'd cut her off - I wouldn't be able to stand it. I can't stand her on a good day. I think Elizabeth said, "Yeah, yeah, come pick Gabe up on Monday (or whatever day)" and boogied.

Gabe's family wasn't able to pin down that date, but it makes sense that TPS and EJ would have an "excited" conversation when TPS arrives to pick up Gabe, and 'her' baby isn't there. She must have been in a fine state. EJ was also in a fine state.

All MOO.


Your always so insightful...but what conversation was it that was overheard that she says something to the effect " what you want me to do, bring him back"...not exact words, was it what the babysitter heard or the people at the salon ??? Not trying to get off topic here..

BeanE
04-01-2010, 10:05 AM
Your always so insightful...but what conversation was it that was overheard that she says something to the effect " what you want me to do, bring him back"...not exact words, was it what the babysitter heard or the people at the salon ??? Not trying to get off topic here..

That sounds like the babysitter on the 23rd.

YellowSubmarine
04-01-2010, 10:08 AM
Isn't this the description that came from EJ in a jail conversation and also that she met the couple in the park? So, maybe she was talking, at least some.

You're right. I think it's promising that she was giving at least some truthful info. I have the feeling, though, she chose that info to give because she didn't think anyone would ever put the pieces together.

kappy50
04-01-2010, 10:10 AM
That sounds like the babysitter on the 23rd.

I found it! It's on the Babysitter thread # 15. The calendar says she babysat on the 21st., the calendar could be wrong and she sat on the 23rd.......but if it was on the 21st. and if "grandma" was indeed TS, then TS knew she was gone....thus, why go to the trailer, if indeed they did....let me know if I needs to move these toughts somewhere else...I don't want to be o/t and get a spankin"

YellowSubmarine
04-01-2010, 10:13 AM
http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=119078&article=6940800

The drama over the disappearance of the little Arizona boy Gabriel Johnson has now moved to Leon Valley, as a private investigator who has taken over the case tells 1200 WOAI's Michael Board that he has detailed evidence indicating that Gabriel's mom was drinking heavily and had fallen into a depression when she gave him to a man and women in Rimkus Park in the northwest side suburb on the morning of December 27th.

More at link

BeanE
04-01-2010, 10:13 AM
I think we should pull it all together. What we know she said (from the documents and everything directly from her - jail interview, grandfather statements, etc), what she may have said (from TayJay - and mark that as 2nd hand), and this new info, and see how it all lines up and what we can get from it.

YellowSubmarine
04-01-2010, 10:18 AM
I agree BeanE -- the article quotes Gamble as saying he believed EJ was going to start a new life in SA but something changed 12/23-24 and she decided to give Gabe away and flee. We need to gather what we know of those days and figure out what happened and who may have been the problem.

BeanE
04-01-2010, 10:18 AM
I found it! It's on the Babysitter thread # 15. The calendar says she babysat on the 21st., the calendar could be wrong and she sat on the 23rd.......but if it was on the 21st. and if "grandma" was indeed TS, then TS knew she was gone....thus, why go to the trailer, if indeed they did....let me know if I needs to move these toughts somewhere else...I don't want to be o/t and get a spankin"

No, I'm losing my mind, kappy. Lord help me. It's the 21st. I'm on overload.

We're o/t lol :) Keep talking though. I'll move us in a sec.

iluvmua
04-01-2010, 10:36 AM
Did anybody see this couple leave with a baby?

kappy50
04-01-2010, 11:10 AM
http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=119078&article=6940800



More at link

HEADLINE "DRUNK"..go down futher "drinking heavily"..go down father..."suggest she had been drinking"...and go down farther..."she left AZ with Gabriel on Dec. 21st"...trying to figure this article out. Anyway to verify from Mr.Gamble that he even did this interview ??? not saying Mr.Board is a liar, maybe he did the interview and Mr. Board is spinning it somewhat...

TXHOPE
04-01-2010, 11:10 AM
I agree BeanE -- the article quotes Gamble as saying he believed EJ was going to start a new life in SA but something changed 12/23-24 and she decided to give Gabe away and flee. We need to gather what we know of those days and figure out what happened and who may have been the problem.

That would be right around the time the phone call was received in front of the babysitter and the comments were made in front of the hair stylist about not wanting to go back to AZ. I still think that was TS's plan falling through-plan A. Then EJ found plan B fast so we just have to piece it together.

TS could of helped come up with plan B with the help of her friends..JM or any other adoption connection she had or foster connection to just hide Gabriel.

One of the people from the shelters she contacted may of offered her help. A couple that would hide Gabriel for her to protect him from his "awful", "abusive" father. This is all stuff we've talked about but now it's fitting into Ken statements.

TXHOPE
04-01-2010, 11:22 AM
Maybe EJ mailed it to somebody and they gave it to the PI.

Maybe she ditched it right before she was arrested and hid it, someone found it, gave it to Gamble.

YellowSubmarine
04-01-2010, 11:36 AM
Well, if she spoke with [most likely] TS on 12/22 when she said "what am I supposed to do, go back?" and TS fired off the txt to Logan that day (IIRC) about having to do something quick or she'd be gone forever -- I'm wondering if TS was threatening EJ with something and that's why she figured it'd be easier to ditch Gabe and take off. Kind of a "screw you all" attitude.

But, if this is all true - the HG would not have been the "middle man". If not, if he was just a friend or whatever, why would he not have come forward by now and said "hey, I'm the guy you're all talking about but I didn't do anything"?

Wasn't she seen with another couple before 12/23-24? Didn't she order several pizzas on 12/21? Who would that have been for if not a potential adoptive couple?

BeanE
04-01-2010, 11:39 AM
Well, if she spoke with [most likely] TS on 12/22 when she said "what am I supposed to do, go back?" and TS fired off the txt to Logan that day (IIRC) about having to do something quick or she'd be gone forever -- I'm wondering if TS was threatening EJ with something and that's why she figured it'd be easier to ditch Gabe and take off. Kind of a "screw you all" attitude.

But, if this is all true - the HG would not have been the "middle man". If not, if he was just a friend or whatever, why would he not have come forward by now and said "hey, I'm the guy you're all talking about but I didn't do anything"?

Wasn't she seen with another couple before 12/23-24? Didn't she order several pizzas on 12/21? Who would that have been for if not a potential adoptive couple?

A potential hiding couple? ;)

TXHOPE
04-01-2010, 11:47 AM
Well, if she spoke with [most likely] TS on 12/22 when she said "what am I supposed to do, go back?" and TS fired off the txt to Logan that day (IIRC) about having to do something quick or she'd be gone forever -- I'm wondering if TS was threatening EJ with something and that's why she figured it'd be easier to ditch Gabe and take off. Kind of a "screw you all" attitude.

But, if this is all true - the HG would not have been the "middle man". If not, if he was just a friend or whatever, why would he not have come forward by now and said "hey, I'm the guy you're all talking about but I didn't do anything"?

Wasn't she seen with another couple before 12/23-24? Didn't she order several pizzas on 12/21? Who would that have been for if not a potential adoptive couple?

Maybe HG is not coming forward because he wants to stay out of this as long as he possibly can and/or the Smith's paid him well to help EJ and keep an eye on her. Just a theory.

kissdegirl
04-01-2010, 11:53 AM
Maybe HG is not coming forward because he wants to stay out of this as long as he possibly can and/or the Smith's paid him well to help EJ and keep an eye on her. Just a theory.

Or he's a married man or otherwise in a relationship that this news would ruin. MOO.:waitasec:

TXHOPE
04-01-2010, 11:56 AM
Or he's a married man or otherwise in a relationship that this news would ruin. MOO.:waitasec:

Whooooooa. Scandalous! I didn't think about that! yet another possibility.

BeanE
04-01-2010, 12:02 PM
Or he's a married man or otherwise in a relationship that this news would ruin. MOO.:waitasec:

:eek:

kissdegirl
04-01-2010, 12:05 PM
It would be a "simple" explanation.

kappy50
04-01-2010, 12:25 PM
Well, if she spoke with [most likely] TS on 12/22 when she said "what am I supposed to do, go back?" and TS fired off the txt to Logan that day (IIRC) about having to do something quick or she'd be gone forever -- I'm wondering if TS was threatening EJ with something and that's why she figured it'd be easier to ditch Gabe and take off. Kind of a "screw you all" attitude.

But, if this is all true - the HG would not have been the "middle man". If not, if he was just a friend or whatever, why would he not have come forward by now and said "hey, I'm the guy you're all talking about but I didn't do anything"?

Wasn't she seen with another couple before 12/23-24? Didn't she order several pizzas on 12/21? Who would that have been for if not a potential adoptive couple?

i think time line here is important:

12/21- Babysitter ( that's when she's in a heated converstion and says "what am I suppose to do, come back" ?
12/22- Hair Salon-Conversation with someone ???
I think both are w/ TS...she got pissed off, 12/21, got pissed 12/22 .

Ives
04-01-2010, 09:33 PM
or she was useing the couple/adoption agency for funds, with no intentions of giveing gabe up? until, she found out about the court hearing, and realized she was in trouble? so she fill in the blanks. Not sure about the rest. but maybe TS at this point thought EJ was still going to give Gabe to her?

OR. EJ is a very smart girl, and was useing everyone involved. She was useing TS to pull strings in AZ, to threaten logan to sign his rights away. then Logan problem solved. she is useing adoption agency/couple, to get on her feet, and then shrug them off. and her and Gabe live happily ever after. but it didn't work.

wild? crazy? Probably. Just another theory.

YellowSubmarine
04-01-2010, 11:04 PM
The only thing about Mr.Gambles theory EJ was going to "start over" with Gabe in SA -- I just keep hearing her GF talking about how she was never the mother type and never had that love a mother should have for her child.

I'm not discounting what Mr.Gamble said, he probably has good evidence. It just doesn't sound right to me.

BeanE
04-01-2010, 11:19 PM
The only thing about Mr.Gambles theory EJ was going to "start over" with Gabe in SA -- I just keep hearing her GF talking about how she was never the mother type and never had that love a mother should have for her child.

I'm not discounting what Mr.Gamble said, he probably has good evidence. It just doesn't sound right to me.

I agree, but I'm thinking that's a big part of why the "living in SA" thing didn't work, and she went for the hiding Gabe and going to FL until she figured out what she wanted to do.

She could torment Logan by leaving him thinking she had killed Gabe, and have some time without the responsibility of Gabe, which I don't imagine was very enjoyable for her alone in SA, and decide what she wanted to do, without having made any commitments yet in terms of giving Gabe up for adoption.

I think she was too angry - and maybe too depressed and also in some sort of psychological I-don't-know-what - to think or care too much about the legal ramifications. I don't think it was very real to her that what she was doing could land her in jail for 20 years.

Concernedmomarizona
04-01-2010, 11:22 PM
Not sure is if this is the right place. I finally watched the 7 minute video of Ken Gamble. Has Elizabeth started talking? All reports have been that she is not, but in interview with K. Galble he talks about her "full admissions"....does that mean she is cooperative with LE now?

Litlred
04-02-2010, 01:46 AM
I agree BeanE -- the article quotes Gamble as saying he believed EJ was going to start a new life in SA but something changed 12/23-24 and she decided to give Gabe away and flee. We need to gather what we know of those days and figure out what happened and who may have been the problem.

From the timeline.....

BBM

Timeline - Tuesday, December 22, 2009 through Friday, December 25, 2009 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

The Smiths text Logan asking to get together the morning of December 23 to talk with Logan and his father. They say that they're afraid Elizabeth will be "gone forever" because she doesn't want to go to jail for kidnapping. They say that Elizabeth doesn't trust Logan or his father, and that the only way she'll come back is if the Smith's attorney faxes signed papers to her so she won't get in trouble, and Gabriel will be with the Smiths.

Wednesday, December 23, 2009

Tammi has stated that Elizabeth told her she was going to a domestic violence shelter. Tammi has indicated two different dates on which this conversation could have occurred: December 23 or December 26. Please see my Domestic Violence Shelter post for more information: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/blog.php?b=618

On December 23, Tammi posts on her FaceBook that Elizabeth and Gabriel were on the road, that Elizabeth found 'an underground help' in TX. She writes that the 'help' had given Elizabeth formula, diapers, etc, and all the legal 'formalities'.

Tammi says she posted this because she 'was somewhat threatened' by Logan. Tammi said she posted it also to let Logan knew that the Smiths didn`t want any further involvement with Elizabeth, Gabriel, or Logan.

Elizabeth has a babysitter watch Gabriel at the hotel from 11:45am until 1:30pm.

Elizabeth is angry that the babysitter is late arriving.

Elizabeth is dressed in very tight low-cut jeans, a tight midriff blouse, and stilettos. Her clothing is inappropriate to the cool weather that day.

Elizabeth does not tell the babysitter where she was going.

When Elizabeth returns, she receives a phone call.

The phone call lasts approximately five minutes.

The babysitter hears a female 'yelling', but can not make out the words on the other end.

Elizabeth asks the caller, "What am I supposed to do? Just go back?"

After hanging up, Elizabeth tells the babysitter that the person on the call was her grandmother.

Elizabeth says her grandmother was scared because Logan was threatening her because he wanted to know where Elizabeth and Gabriel were. Elizabeth says she's in a custody battle with Logan

The babysitter asks Elizabeth if she'd need her services again, and Elizabeth says she's unsure because she doesn't know what she's going to do next with her life.

LE later interviews Elizabeth's grandmother, who denies having the phone conversation.

Elizabeth's grandfather has stated that when he visited her in jail, she said she had gone to the library during the time the babysitter watched Gabriel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I strongly believe it was TPS on the phone with EJ on the 23rd (not grandmother). TPS stated she was somewhat threatened by Logan and then EJ confirms the threatening with the grandmother lie in the same day.

BeanE
04-02-2010, 07:16 AM
I know hes out there and hes alive and he got handed off to a couple and we pretty much believe we know who they are, said McQueary.

http://www.kpho.com/news/23032430/detail.html

Oh Happy Day! Thank you, God.

kappy50
04-02-2010, 10:22 AM
I am so po'd that this is not getting national news attention. The new information I think is huge and it would get more eyes out there.

TripleA
04-02-2010, 10:26 AM
I think she was too angry - and maybe too depressed and also in some sort of psychological I-don't-know-what - to think or care too much about the legal ramifications. I don't think it was very real to her that what she was doing could land her in jail for 20 years.

I thought that too at first, but then I changed my mind. I think she did/does know. I think that her not talking is part of the deal; give the couple time to relocate without raising red flags, give Gabriel time for his appearance to change naturally, give time for people's memories to fade about what they saw and when and where. I am betting that she got a small payment upfront with a third party holding the rest of the money until the coast is clear. I am also willing to bet that this all came about once EJ realized through TS's baby craziness, just how valuable Gabriel could be to a couple without a baby.

kissdegirl
04-02-2010, 10:40 AM
I don't think EJ had a "plan" at the point in time she gave Gabriel to the couple. I think she was ready to get the heck out of there. I don't think there was money. I think she just wanted someone who wouldn't give him to LM, and that was a couple. TS knew the right person (second best only to her of course), and she sent them. These people have strong beliefs, just like TS. They are either friend/family/associates of hers. I wouldn't doubt if there's some church connection, as I get a little fanatical feeling from TS. In fact, if they are family/friends/associates of her (I'm thinking TN), they probably also attended the same church whenever they lived in the same city/town. MOO.

DaneBramage
04-02-2010, 10:48 AM
Don't forget the Diamond/Ruby ring now...

BeanE
04-02-2010, 10:52 AM
I don't think EJ had a "plan" at the point in time she gave Gabriel to the couple. I think she was ready to get the heck out of there. I don't think there was money. I think she just wanted someone who wouldn't give him to LM, and that was a couple. TS knew the right person (second best only to her of course), and she sent them. These people have strong beliefs, just like TS. They are either friend/family/associates of hers. I wouldn't doubt if there's some church connection, as I get a little fanatical feeling from TS. In fact, if they are family/friends/associates of her (I'm thinking TN), they probably also attended the same church whenever they lived in the same city/town. MOO.

I'm with you!

BeanE
04-02-2010, 10:52 AM
Don't forget the Diamond/Ruby ring now...

That seems to have been investigated away. No mention of it in ages.

kissdegirl
04-02-2010, 12:09 PM
Trying to find clues as to why this park...and trying to keep it simple....no huge underground thing, no wild goose chases, just simple....and going by KG's suggestion that he doesn't believe they live in SA.
The couple got a hotel near there, that's my vote. That makes sense, and it's simple. They're near EJ's hotel, and this park was right in between EJ and the hotel, IMO.

Look at the nearest one, "A"...pretty darn close. I looked at the satelite view from that hotel, and I wonder if the couple could have even seen the park in the distance from their room. Maybe not, but if they chose this hotel because it was off the beaten path, then a park near their hotel would make sense. They probably even checked out the morning of Dec 27th, before 10am, and went and picked up Gabriel at the park before heading off on their road trip to wherever.
http://maps.google.com/maps?near=Raymond+Rimkus+Park,+Leon+Valley,+Texas+ 78238,+78238+(Raymond+Rimkus+Park)&geocode=CVqikiUL_fSrFdAgwgEdGEAf-iEiGJ67dItnDQ&q=motel&f=l&hl=en&dq=Raymond+Rimkus+Park&sll=29.499707,-98.615037&sspn=0.023307,0.038418&ie=UTF8&ll=29.48862,-98.597317&spn=0.068884,0.153637&z=13

kissdegirl
04-02-2010, 12:26 PM
Trying to find clues as to why this park...and trying to keep it simple....no huge underground thing, no wild goose chases, just simple....and going by KG's suggestion that he doesn't believe they live in SA.
The couple got a hotel near there, that's my vote. That makes sense, and it's simple. They're near EJ's hotel, and this park was right in between EJ and the hotel, IMO.

Look at the nearest one, "A"...pretty darn close. I looked at the satelite view from that hotel, and I wonder if the couple could have even seen the park in the distance from their room. Maybe not, but if they chose this hotel because it was off the beaten path, then a park near their hotel would make sense. They probably even checked out the morning of Dec 27th, before 10am, and went and picked up Gabriel at the park before heading off on their road trip to wherever.
http://maps.google.com/maps?near=Raymond+Rimkus+Park,+Leon+Valley,+Texas+ 78238,+78238+(Raymond+Rimkus+Park)&geocode=CVqikiUL_fSrFdAgwgEdGEAf-iEiGJ67dItnDQ&q=motel&f=l&hl=en&dq=Raymond+Rimkus+Park&sll=29.499707,-98.615037&sspn=0.023307,0.038418&ie=UTF8&ll=29.48862,-98.597317&spn=0.068884,0.153637&z=13

If you go to street view and drive down up Highway16 (Bandera Rd), toward Huebner, driving up the road from the hotel, and at the intersection to turn to the park (Poss Rd), there is a green sign that reads "Leon Valley Community Center -->). They may have seen that after eating at Arby's or driving up that road, and checked it out. Just saying.

Now back to finding them. :)

NewMommy09
04-02-2010, 12:56 PM
Just a thought:
Is it possible that the phone call overheard by the babysitter in the hotel room was actually with a Crisis Center/Women's Shelter liason?
I think we've all focused on it being someone EJ knew well because AU said the woman was yelling.
But imagine a different scenario:
EJ contacts a shelter or center. Tells them some story about Logan being abusive and Gabriel being in danger. The shelter/center is legit, so they follow up on her information and check into her back in Arizona. They see that she has charges out on her for violence and destruction of property when Gabriel was in her care, they see that Logan is going by the book to try to get Gabriel in a better situation, that he's contacted CPS, etc. etc. They see that she is supposed to go to a hearing on Dec. 28th and obviously won't be there.
Maybe they told her they can't help her and she needs to go about this the proper/legal way. I could see someone at one of these shelters getting very upset with EJ in this situation. I'm sure many shelter volunteers have been in situations in their past that caused them to want to help others. I know many of these shelters cater to a woman and believe the woman, but there is pretty compelling evidence available that EJ was the violent one that didn't have Gabe's best interest at heart.

Just a theory. I'm not even saying I believe this over the possibility that it was TPS. But I wanted to share the thought.

kissdegirl
04-02-2010, 01:07 PM
I want to repost this map that Prof made of EJ sightings! TY Prof!
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=112629740671339173896.0004806ea89e7eab99646

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Important Links, Documents, Phone Numbers, Addresses **NO DISCUSSION**

kappy50
04-03-2010, 03:44 PM
I know hes out there and hes alive and he got handed off to a couple and we pretty much believe we know who they are, said McQueary.

http://www.kpho.com/news/23032430/detail.html

Oh Happy Day! Thank you, God.

OMG...I just listened to this video...Wonderful news...now maybe they are just waiting on LE to do their jobs...Oh Happy Day It Is!!!

BeanE
04-03-2010, 07:45 PM
Why this park?

A buddy of mine who lives in San Antonio just emailed me with an interesting perspective on the park (thank you, buddy :) ). He said this park is in a bad spot, not convenient to anyone or anything. This leads him to believe it had to be a San Antonio local who picked the park and gave the directions.

IIRC Tammi said that Elizabeth said that the couple was from San Antonio. But oddly, as a poster pointer out, she said "Both of them" were from San Antonio. Makes me wonder if one half of the couple is local, and the other half is not.

The couple doesn't have to be a couple in the traditional sense. They may simply have been two people who knew each other, and may not have known each other well at all.

Could have been one was from San Antonio and made the arrangements on where to meet and gave the directions and got the other one there to get Gabe, and that one is from elsewhere, picked Gabe up, and left the area or the state. I recall that Ken said he believes Gabe is no longer in Texas.

danisisa
04-03-2010, 07:54 PM
Why this park?

A buddy of mine who lives in San Antonio just emailed me with an interesting perspective on the park (thank you, buddy :) ). He said this park is in a bad spot, not convenient to anyone or anything. This leads him to believe it had to be a San Antonio local who picked the park and gave the directions.

IIRC Tammi said that Elizabeth said that the couple was from San Antonio. But oddly, as a poster pointer out, she said "Both of them" were from San Antonio. Makes me wonder if one half of the couple is local, and the other half is not.

The couple doesn't have to be a couple in the traditional sense. They may simply have been two people who knew each other, and may not have known each other well at all.

Could have been one was from San Antonio and made the arrangements on where to meet and gave the directions and got the other one there to get Gabe, and that one is from elsewhere, picked Gabe up, and left the area or the state. I recall that Ken said he believes Gabe is no longer in Texas.

Possibly a brother and sister? I am beginning to wonder that because EJ would not have known. TPS seems to know alot, too much!!

jessicat
04-03-2010, 08:40 PM
Why this park?

A buddy of mine who lives in San Antonio just emailed me with an interesting perspective on the park (thank you, buddy :) ). He said this park is in a bad spot, not convenient to anyone or anything. This leads him to believe it had to be a San Antonio local who picked the park and gave the directions.

IIRC Tammi said that Elizabeth said that the couple was from San Antonio. But oddly, as a poster pointer out, she said "Both of them" were from San Antonio. Makes me wonder if one half of the couple is local, and the other half is not.

The couple doesn't have to be a couple in the traditional sense. They may simply have been two people who knew each other, and may not have known each other well at all.

Could have been one was from San Antonio and made the arrangements on where to meet and gave the directions and got the other one there to get Gabe, and that one is from elsewhere, picked Gabe up, and left the area or the state. I recall that Ken said he believes Gabe is no longer in Texas.

I know this park well. I live close to it. Its off of a major road here in SA. If u look at a map, u will see Huebner Rd, then close to that Bandera Rd. Bandera Rd. is full of eating places, Walmart, further down is loop 1604 with a huge shopping are of Target, Old Navy etc. I don't know about it not being close to anyone or anything. Its in a populated neighborhood. I do agree tho that somebody had to kno the area to pick that particular park. I also believe that somebody had to kno the area well enough for EJ to go to that particular bus station as it is on a bad side of SA.

jessicat
04-03-2010, 08:44 PM
Also I wouldn't say its off the beaten path per say but it is in a wooded area. I have taken my son there alot of times. During the day its mainly moms with little ones but after school it gets really busy. There is also areas for basketball, baseball, a walking path etc. But SOMEONE would have to kno SA to pick that park...just saying

kissdegirl
04-03-2010, 11:37 PM
Is the park neighborhood mostly hispanic? Just thinking, between the HG, the park, and the bus station, it would make sense that HG set up the meeting at the park if it were in a location he was familiar with?

We all assume TS was the third party EJ trusted, so I just want to cover this possibility, if it's a possibility.

If no one wants to go with that thought, then, maybe we should check nearby churches, see if there is a connection somewhere with TS. A new church leader with ties to TN or LA? I would lean toward it being a female, women's outreach, close to TS at some point...and yes, that person, local to the park, could have had a friend from out of state come with her. Maybe a relative who happened to be in town for Christmas. He could even be married with other children, and his wife stayed at the hotel/local's home, with the kids during the handoff?

BeanE
04-04-2010, 12:01 AM
Is the park neighborhood mostly hispanic? Just thinking, between the HG, the park, and the bus station, it would make sense that HG set up the meeting at the park if it were in a location he was familiar with?

We all assume TS was the third party EJ trusted, so I just want to cover this possibility, if it's a possibility.

If no one wants to go with that thought, then, maybe we should check nearby churches, see if there is a connection somewhere with TS. A new church leader with ties to TN or LA? I would lean toward it being a female, women's outreach, close to TS at some point...and yes, that person, local to the park, could have had a friend from out of state come with her. Maybe a relative who happened to be in town for Christmas. He could even be married with other children, and his wife stayed at the hotel/local's home, with the kids during the handoff?

I'm with you except for the HG. Ken and Logan gave several indications that they have someone in mind for the third party. I'm thinking if it was the HG they would have indicated that. I don't know.

I think looking at the churches is an excellent idea. Maybe natural health kind of places too. Maybe music industry related.

jessicat
04-04-2010, 12:38 AM
Is the park neighborhood mostly hispanic? Just thinking, between the HG, the park, and the bus station, it would make sense that HG set up the meeting at the park if it were in a location he was familiar with?

We all assume TS was the third party EJ trusted, so I just want to cover this possibility, if it's a possibility.

If no one wants to go with that thought, then, maybe we should check nearby churches, see if there is a connection somewhere with TS. A new church leader with ties to TN or LA? I would lean toward it being a female, women's outreach, close to TS at some point...and yes, that person, local to the park, could have had a friend from out of state come with her. Maybe a relative who happened to be in town for Christmas. He could even be married with other children, and his wife stayed at the hotel/local's home, with the kids during the handoff?

Yes mainly Hispanic is what I have seen.

BeanE
04-04-2010, 08:19 AM
When was Elizabeth's decision to hide Gabe? and why?

TAMMI SMITH: Yes. She told me that she was paid up until Sunday. And we had her basically ready to come back. Sunday morning, she was going to come back.

GRACE: And then out of the blue, she just takes off?

TAMMI SMITH: Yes.


Sunday was December 27th, the morning Elizabeth handed Gabe off in the park, texted Logan and told him she had killed Gabe, and then took off for FL on the bus.

Tammi has also said that Elizabeth refused to talk on the phone to her that day, so how did she know Elizabeth was planning to head back to AZ that morning?

Why has Tammi insisted again and again and again that she did not talk with Elizabeth that day?

BeanE
04-04-2010, 08:45 AM
It's very important to note here, that Elizabeth did not approach Tammi - Tammi approached Elizabeth. We know this from Tammi herself - Elizabeth was seated, and Tammi walked up to her and approached her.

TAMMI SMITH: And I just knew the second I saw her, there is something wrong there. And she said — I sat down. She said something, and I don`t remember what it was. This was seven months ago. And I just immediately — What do you want to do with your baby, you know? And we — it went on from there.

Thank God for Tammi, giving us all this information, so we know right from the horse's mouth exactly what happened, how it happened, who did what, who said what, what Tammi said and did, and most importantly, exactly what Elizabeth said and did.

Elizabeth was seated, holding her little infant newborn, crying, minding her own business. Tammi approached Elizabeth. Tammi walked up to Elizabeth, and immediately tried to get Gabe from her.

So, this was not Elizabeth's idea at all. It was all Tammi's idea. Tammi immediately wanted Gabe - so much!! - that she approached Elizabeth, a young, depressed, crying girl, a stranger - and immediately tried to take her newborn baby from her.

It would be worthwhile asking the public if they've seen - or experienced! - Tammi doing this before.

Let's see - this time that Tammi approached a young woman, all alone, with no one to protect her or help her, and tried to get her little infant baby from her was July Fourth weekend 2009 in an airport, was it not?

I wonder how many times Tammi has done this? Approached young, vulnerable young girls holding their babies, minding their own business, not bothering a soul, and tried to get their babies from them? Where and when?

God, I'm starting to feel sorry for Elizabeth.

What's the age difference we have here between Elizabeth and Tammi? Are they the same age or is Tammi older, more mature, sophisticated? Is this a more predatory situation?

What about their criminal backgrounds? Let's see. Elizabeth at that point had a perfectly clean record, correct? And Tammi? How far back does her criminal record go?

My God, a convicted criminal approaching young girls alone and trying to take their babies from them. Wow.

You know, there really are two sides to every story, and I'm not so sure that I've adequately considered this from Elizabeth's side. I'm going to have to pay that due diligence this week I think.

kissdegirl
04-04-2010, 09:09 AM
It's very important to note here, that Elizabeth did not approach Tammi - Tammi approached Elizabeth. We know this from Tammi herself - Elizabeth was seated, and Tammi walked up to her and approached her.

TAMMI SMITH: And I just knew the second I saw her, there is something wrong there. And she said I sat down. She said something, and I don`t remember what it was. This was seven months ago. And I just immediately What do you want to do with your baby, you know? And we it went on from there.

Thank God for Tammi, giving us all this information, so we know right from the horse's mouth exactly what happened, how it happened, who did what, who said what, what Tammi said and did, and most importantly, exactly what Elizabeth said and did.

Elizabeth was seated, holding her little infant newborn, crying, minding her own business. Tammi approached Elizabeth. Tammi walked up to Elizabeth, and immediately tried to get Gabe from her.

So, this was not Elizabeth's idea at all. It was all Tammi's idea. Tammi immediately wanted Gabe - so much!! - that she approached Elizabeth, a young, depressed, crying girl, a stranger - and immediately tried to take her newborn baby from her.

It would be worthwhile asking the public if they've seen - or experienced! - Tammi doing this before.

Let's see - this time that Tammi approached a young woman, all alone, with no one to protect her or help her, and tried to get her little infant baby from her was July Fourth weekend 2009 in an airport, was it not?

I wonder how many time Tammi has done this? Approached young, vulnerable young girls holding their babies, minding their own business, not bothering a soul, and tried to get their babies from them? Where and when?

God, I'm starting to feel sorry for Elizabeth.

What's the age difference we have here between Elizabeth and Tammi? Are they the same age or is Tammi older, more mature, sophisticated? Is this a more predatory situation?

What about their criminal backgrounds? Let's see. Elizabeth at that point had a perfectly clean record, correct? And Tammi? How far back does her criminal record go?

My God, a convicted criminal approaching young girls alone and trying to take their babies from them. Wow.

You know, there really are two sides to every story, and I'm not so sure that I've adequately considered this from Elizabeth's side. I'm going to have to pay that due diligence this week I think.

Thanks isn't enough....BeanE :blowkiss:

BeanE
04-04-2010, 09:18 AM
I apologize, I should have read just a bit further:

GRACE: And from there, she was willing to just give you the baby?

TAMMI SMITH: Well, no, not back then.

Tammi confirms for us here again that this was entirely her own idea to take Gabe from Elizabeth, and that Elizabeth was not willing to give Gabe to Tammi.

Thank you again, Tammi!

BeanE
04-04-2010, 09:33 AM
Jack Smith thinks it's crazy and non-normal for one to give one's baby away. I wonder why he didn't call the police and the FBI and CPS when crazy non-normal Elizabeth gave her baby to he and his wife, and when crazy non-normal Elizabeth took Gabe back on December 18. He and his wife put a defenseless, vulnerable baby into the hands of someone they considered to be insane.

And when Elizabeth put Gabe into the hands of the couple at the park, Jack considered her to be insane. Insane. Incapable of rational thought. Incapable of make rational decisions about what was in the best interests of Gabe. No sound reason for giving Gabe to the couple. Scary.

GRACE: So this is so similar to what she`s saying happened to baby Gabriel. She meets this couple in a public park, and they were kind and caring and she just gave them the baby. Why do you believe, Mr. Smith, she wanted to give away the baby?

JACK SMITH: You know — and this is something that — and I would like to interject here, if it`s OK. We are for the finding of this baby. We are not on a side. But I think that she`s looking at things through non-normal eyes. Our normal eyes say, That`s crazy. Non-normal eyes say, It happens every day.

ETA:

GRACE: Mr. Smith, when you were dealing with her about adopting baby Gabriel, what was her state of mind at that point?

J. SMITH: You know, we — honestly we had some concerns. I mean, again, we`re looking at — as I mentioned earlier, we`re looking through normal eyes. It feels — it felt a little odd, but you know what, we felt like that we could be helping this baby also if this mother did have any kind of potential emotional problems.

ETA:

J. SMITH: It don`t make sense to us. And that`s the reason we kept hanging on to her and trying to better understand her because it didn`t make any sense.

ETA:

Tammi Smith: I am not a psychiatrist, but I`m starting to see — does she have some kind of a multiple personality

Litlred
04-04-2010, 09:35 AM
It's very important to note here, that Elizabeth did not approach Tammi - Tammi approached Elizabeth. We know this from Tammi herself - Elizabeth was seated, and Tammi walked up to her and approached her.

TAMMI SMITH: And I just knew the second I saw her, there is something wrong there. And she said I sat down. She said something, and I don`t remember what it was. This was seven months ago. And I just immediately What do you want to do with your baby, you know? And we it went on from there.

Thank God for Tammi, giving us all this information, so we know right from the horse's mouth exactly what happened, how it happened, who did what, who said what, what Tammi said and did, and most importantly, exactly what Elizabeth said and did.

Elizabeth was seated, holding her little infant newborn, crying, minding her own business. Tammi approached Elizabeth. Tammi walked up to Elizabeth, and immediately tried to get Gabe from her.

So, this was not Elizabeth's idea at all. It was all Tammi's idea. Tammi immediately wanted Gabe - so much!! - that she approached Elizabeth, a young, depressed, crying girl, a stranger - and immediately tried to take her newborn baby from her.

It would be worthwhile asking the public if they've seen - or experienced! - Tammi doing this before.

Let's see - this time that Tammi approached a young woman, all alone, with no one to protect her or help her, and tried to get her little infant baby from her was July Fourth weekend 2009 in an airport, was it not?

I wonder how many time Tammi has done this? Approached young, vulnerable young girls holding their babies, minding their own business, not bothering a soul, and tried to get their babies from them? Where and when?

God, I'm starting to feel sorry for Elizabeth.

What's the age difference we have here between Elizabeth and Tammi? Are they the same age or is Tammi older, more mature, sophisticated? Is this a more predatory situation?

What about their criminal backgrounds? Let's see. Elizabeth at that point had a perfectly clean record, correct? And Tammi? How far back does her criminal record go?

My God, a convicted criminal approaching young girls alone and trying to take their babies from them. Wow.

You know, there really are two sides to every story, and I'm not so sure that I've adequately considered this from Elizabeth's side. I'm going to have to pay that due diligence this week I think.

Thanks BeanE. Tammi is an evil predator, preying on the young and not so experienced.

Litlred
04-04-2010, 09:38 AM
Jack Smith thinks it's crazy and non-normal for to give one's baby away. I wonder why he didn't call the police and the FBI and CPS when crazy non-normal Elizabeth gave her baby to he and his wife, and when crazy non-normal Elizabeth took Gabe back on December 18. He and his wife put a defenseless, vulnerable baby into the hands of someone they considered to be insane.

And when Elizabeth put Gabe into the hands of the couple at the park, Jack considered her to be insane. Insane. Incapable of rational thought. Incapable of make rational decisions about what was in the best interests of Gabe. No sound reason for giving Gabe to the couple. Scary.

GRACE: So this is so similar to what she`s saying happened to baby Gabriel. She meets this couple in a public park, and they were kind and caring and she just gave them the baby. Why do you believe, Mr. Smith, she wanted to give away the baby?

JACK SMITH: You know and this is something that and I would like to interject here, if it`s OK. We are for the finding of this baby. We are not on a side. But I think that she`s looking at things through non-normal eyes. Our normal eyes say, That`s crazy. Non-normal eyes say, It happens every day.

Well he married TPS and that is sane? Ya know they keep throwing EJ under the bus and landed her in jail. How do they sleep at night?

kissdegirl
04-04-2010, 09:49 AM
Thanks BeanE. Tammi is an evil predator, preying on the young and not so experienced.

A great post here about TS as an "intraspecies predator"...
Tammi Peters Smith Psych Profile and indicators - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

BeanE
04-04-2010, 12:17 PM
Saturday Dec 26, Elizabeth told Tammi she was going to a shelter.

Sunday Dec 27, Elizabeth changed her mind and told Tammi she was coming back to Arizona.

This must have been very early in the morning, because then a "third party" told Elizabeth to hide Gabe, and by 10am that same morning, Elizabeth went to the park and gave Gabe to a couple to hide him.

It sounds like Elizabeth's change of mind from coming back to AZ, to someone telling her to hide Gabe, to arrangements for the couple, to Elizabeth driving to the park, meeting the couple at 10am, and handing Gabe to them, must all have happened very very quickly.

It would be great if we had the times of the texts and calls between Elizabeth and Tammi when Elizabeth told her she was coming back to AZ. Then we'd know exactly how long it took for all those things to happen.

Whoever the third party was, must have known somebody who was already right there in San Antonio. Already in San Antonio, and all ready to accept the responsibility and risk of caring for a baby.

----

Saturday Dec 26

TAMMI SMITH: She told me, I believe it was the day before that Sunday that she had found a domestic violence she didn`t tell me a name. She just said that that was her plan to go there and they would take care of everything because that was our last plea to come back.

----

Sunday Dec 27

TAMMI SMITH: Yes. She told me that she was paid up until Sunday. And we had her basically ready to come back. Sunday morning, she was going to come back.

GRACE: And then out of the blue, she just takes off?

TAMMI SMITH: Yes.

YellowSubmarine
04-04-2010, 01:10 PM
Why has Tammi insisted again and again and again that she did not talk with Elizabeth that day?

~ Respectfully snipped ~

My first thought? Because she did. Then, a little more thinking - she's insisting she didn't talk to EJ that day. Text? She feels she can do know wrong and by saying she didn't TALK to EJ that day, well, she isn't lying, right?

Thanks for all the snippets, BeanE. It's very interesting. I'd love for someone to ask them why, if EJ was so "non-normal" that they would protect her so much and be trying to help her get and keep Gabe from his family? Why is it after they realized she lied and realized she was "insane" they would bash Logan and stand up for EJ as they did in the beginning?

What they say doesn't make sense. Except, of course, for the things they don't realize they are saying. You are right about TS giving up so much more info than she thinks. Which is probably why her atty told her to put a sock in it.


Just want to send a Happy Easter out to everyone!

:grouphug:

Hope you all and your families are enjoying a safe and wonderful holiday! May the Lord watch over our children who are not with their families!

TripleA
04-04-2010, 02:10 PM
I still believe that EJ and TS "met" prior to Gabe's birth. I think that during her pregnancy EJ was looking at options and made contact with TS. I think TS put a few bugs in EJ's ears about monetary value of a newborn and probably how much better-off Gabe would be. I think that the meeting at the airport was not a fluke, I think it was set up by EJ and TS. At that point I think EJ was confused, maybe even PPD, looking for options, and recontacted TS. Then I think months went by and when things went awry with Logan, EJ reconnected with TS again.

BeanE
04-04-2010, 06:00 PM
Could Elizabeth have lied and told Tammi there was videotape of the couple to try to get Tammi to acknowledge involvement?

GRACE: OK, Tammi. She`s also saying the FBI has video of this couple. Where did the video come from?

SMITH: Her attorney is telling her that she said that her attorney said the FBI has videotape of the couple leaving with the baby.

GRACE: Where did this video allegedly come from? The hotel?

SMITH: I don`t know. I`m guessing obviously the hotel. But everyone that I speak to has no such video.

kissdegirl
04-04-2010, 06:18 PM
Could Elizabeth have lied and told Tammi there was videotape of the couple to try to get Tammi to acknowledge involvement?

GRACE: OK, Tammi. She`s also saying the FBI has video of this couple. Where did the video come from?

SMITH: Her attorney is telling her that she said that her attorney said the FBI has videotape of the couple leaving with the baby.

GRACE: Where did this video allegedly come from? The hotel?

SMITH: I don`t know. I`m guessing obviously the hotel. But everyone that I speak to has no such video.

I've thought that from the very beginning. EJ didn't seem to have her mind all together while in SA, and I'm not so sure she knew just what TS was up to. EJ said there was a video, she told TS "you set this up"...I think she was really trying to get TS to help her, like she had promised and became angry with her and willing to turn her in, but TS wasn't about to fall for that. She's not going to admit anything without it being shown to her that it is a fact. Then, she will only backpedal enough to make up a story for that little piece to fit into her big lie. EJ probably wants Gabriel returned, but she doesn't have the information she needs for that. She is at TS' mercy. If he isn't turned in, in jail she will sit...she has probably given all the information she knows about the person's who took Gabriel in the park that cold Sunday morning.

jessicat
04-05-2010, 09:53 AM
I think TS took advantage of a very young mother, perhaps suffering from PPD, overwhelmed etc. I'm not saying that EJ is free from responsibility in the situation but shame on TS for taking advantage of the situation. I think its very creepy. I have stated numerous times that I think someone had to have know SA and the area for EJ to go to the places she did. I live in SA, about 5 min from the park, have taken my son there myself. I also kno that the bus station she went to was on a bad side of town, an area no female should go to alone. The Greyhound station is smack in the middle of SA, the station she took the bus from is not. It just seems weird to me that she chose those particular places. The park isn't one you hear of everyday...at least in my opinion. I don't know...something is just not right and the "third party" has to be someone familiar with SA.

chell
04-05-2010, 02:28 PM
I have this recurring idea that the people who have little G could also be old friends or foster family members of EJ. Even the HG could be a former foster sibling. Survivors of difficulties form incredible and lasting bonds and if some of the other kids placed in the foster situations that EJ was in also found them traumatic, they might share her passion for wanting to keep a tiny child safely out of it. I imagine the holding couple could be from an agency too but even if they were old friends foster kids with EJ, their identities would be protected since foster care program involves minor childrent.

Catbird1
04-05-2010, 02:50 PM
I have this recurring idea that the people who have little G could also be old friends or foster family members of EJ. Even the HG could be a former foster sibling. Survivors of difficulties form incredible and lasting bonds and if some of the other kids placed in the foster situations that EJ was in also found them traumatic, they might share her passion for wanting to keep a tiny child safely out of it. I imagine the holding couple could be from an agency too but even if they were old friends foster kids with EJ, their identities would be protected since foster care program involves minor childrent.

That's a good idea Chell, especially if the foster sibling was orignally placed in foster care because of an abusive parent. It would be fairly easy for EJ to manipulate that person's feelings by fabricating a story about LM being abusive to G. That would also explain why this person hasn't come forward with G as well. The possible foster sibling may feel as though they are saving a child from a situation that they weren't saved from... JMO

kissdegirl
04-05-2010, 10:59 PM
:( I was waiting and hoping for something all day...nothing yet...

Prof
04-06-2010, 12:29 AM
ahh that must be why there was no news today! don't you have any errands to run? lol

After a long day I came here hoping for something new -- anything! I am a bit lost after Ken's statements -- I am finding myself coming up with some real stretches as far as third parties

TXangel
04-06-2010, 01:30 AM
That's a good idea Chell, especially if the foster sibling was orignally placed in foster care because of an abusive parent. It would be fairly easy for EJ to manipulate that person's feelings by fabricating a story about LM being abusive to G. That would also explain why this person hasn't come forward with G as well. The possible foster sibling may feel as though they are saving a child from a situation that they weren't saved from... JMO

Easy for EJ or TS to manufacture whatever story they wished about the father. Even seeing LM on tv begging for his child's return wouldn't do it if they had been in a similar situation- too many abusers can be very charismatic when the moment calls for it. (Please don't think I'm saying this is the case).

Since I heard about the "journal" and that investigators may have info leading to the people who have Gabriel, I've thought that whoever has him really wants him. It helps a little to know that he's most likely being well taken care of and in all probability he will be home soon. Probably better taken care of than he was with EJ, given her mood swings anyway.

kappy50
04-06-2010, 08:31 AM
ahh that must be why there was no news today! don't you have any errands to run? lol

After a long day I came here hoping for something new -- anything! I am a bit lost after Ken's statements -- I am finding myself coming up with some real stretches as far as third parties

Me too Prof...

kissdegirl
04-06-2010, 09:33 AM
ahh that must be why there was no news today! don't you have any errands to run? lol

After a long day I came here hoping for something new -- anything! I am a bit lost after Ken's statements -- I am finding myself coming up with some real stretches as far as third parties

lol Prof...I'm going to come up with some kind of errand today so we get some movement! :crazy:

kappy50
04-06-2010, 11:41 AM
She wrote directions to the park down in her journal -- this means that it was not random, and not her own choice as she had a GPS; she took down directions from a phone call or a face to face meetting

The couple had something to say to identifiy themselves--
seems to be suggested that there was something else written in the journal, a means of identifying the people in the park she was to hand Gabriel off to

Great video!

Like anything, we'd all like to know more for sure, but it would be interesting to know what was the date on the journal entry in regards to directions to the park.

iluvmua
04-07-2010, 05:59 PM
I, for one don't think there is a couple, for all we know she could have written that after she got rid of Gabriel to throw LE off so they would be looking for a couple at some park and not focusing on her.


sounds like to me a cover up by EJ to take the heat off of her for once, so she can stall about talking about what she did with Gabriel.

Khristi
04-07-2010, 10:39 PM
I don't think the journal or the so called couple is anything concrete either. She did make LE search for his body in the landfill, and they spend over 300K in doing so, and found nothing. It sounds like another red herring on Elizabeth's part to throw off LE and the family as to what she truly did. I don't want to burst anyone's bubble- but she is extremely deceptive and full of lies, so whatever she writes down cannot be trusted either. She may have directions to the park for a nefarious reason. JMO.

kissdegirl
04-07-2010, 11:36 PM
My bubble is not burst. I am listening to what the professional is giving us, and asking of the public. He says this is what happened, and who to look for, then I'm going to do all I can to do just that. Gabriel deserves that, and Ken is the professional with the information here.

Litlred
04-08-2010, 12:04 AM
My bubble is not burst. I am listening to what the professional is giving us, and asking of the public. He says this is what happened, and who to look for, then I'm going to do all I can to do just that. Gabriel deserves that, and Ken is the professional with the information here.

BBM: I agree. The PI is a professional that has been doing this type of work for sometime. I think the journal is legit and EJ isn't smart enough to have created a red herring. She runs off of her emotions, not her brain.

Ives
04-08-2010, 12:15 AM
:blowkiss:I think TS took advantage of a very young mother, perhaps suffering from PPD, overwhelmed etc. I'm not saying that EJ is free from responsibility in the situation but shame on TS for taking advantage of the situation. I think its very creepy. I have stated numerous times that I think someone had to have know SA and the area for EJ to go to the places she did. I live in SA, about 5 min from the park, have taken my son there myself. I also kno that the bus station she went to was on a bad side of town, an area no female should go to alone. The Greyhound station is smack in the middle of SA, the station she took the bus from is not. It just seems weird to me that she chose those particular places. The park isn't one you hear of everyday...at least in my opinion. I don't know...something is just not right and the "third party" has to be someone familiar with SA.

LOL, BBM, I live right down the road from the bus station, it's not so bad, but i have to agree, if you are not from this side of town, or even from this side of town, why would you come here? it does seem kind of scary, if you are not familiar with it. and there is alot of crime here on the south/southwest. and this bus station is so out of the way. you would have to know it was here. Even me, knowing its there, I take greyhound if i need a bus.

someone told her it was there? or she was really trying hard to fly under the radar(hello sore thumb!! Only white person on the bus!)

kissdegirl
04-08-2010, 12:26 AM
:blowkiss:

LOL, BBM, I live right down the road from the bus station, it's not so bad, but i have to agree, if you are not from this side of town, or even from this side of town, why would you come here? it does seem kind of scary, if you are not familiar with it. and there is alot of crime here on the south/southwest. and this bus station is so out of the way. you would have to know it was here. Even me, knowing its there, I take greyhound if i need a bus.

someone told her it was there? or she was really trying hard to fly under the radar(hello sore thumb!! Only white person on the bus!)

It just occured to me today, that someone who lives near a Tornado bus station in another location along the route could have suggested it. Did we ever find where it stops on it's way to Florida? I wonder if there are Tornado stations in LA and TN, thinking that it may be familiar to someone who sees it often, but doesn't necessarily live in SA? :waitasec:

TXangel
04-08-2010, 02:06 AM
It just occured to me today, that someone who lives near a Tornado bus station in another location along the route could have suggested it. Did we ever find where it stops on it's way to Florida? I wonder if there are Tornado stations in LA and TN, thinking that it may be familiar to someone who sees it often, but doesn't necessarily live in SA? :waitasec:

I went to the website I found from google, and it lists info for a station in Nashville, TN. On the map on the front it also says Memphis. Nothing for LA or even AL- WI, IL, MI, GA, NC, TN, FL and TX were it.

Just a note though- I would think either someone would have to suggest it to her or she would have to see the station herself and go in to find out about it. I've lived in Brownsville where it lists a station (where I most likely would have noticed at least one of the buses) and along I-10 for years and never remember seeing a bus, never mind a station. I'm leaning more towards someone telling her about it. I couldn't find out much from the website- 10th grade Spanish was many moons ago and I couldn't find any way to convert it to English.

Litlred
04-08-2010, 08:06 AM
I went to the website I found from google, and it lists info for a station in Nashville, TN. On the map on the front it also says Memphis. Nothing for LA or even AL- WI, IL, MI, GA, NC, TN, FL and TX were it.

Just a note though- I would think either someone would have to suggest it to her or she would have to see the station herself and go in to find out about it. I've lived in Brownsville where it lists a station (where I most likely would have noticed at least one of the buses) and along I-10 for years and never remember seeing a bus, never mind a station. I'm leaning more towards someone telling her about it. I couldn't find out much from the website- 10th grade Spanish was many moons ago and I couldn't find any way to convert it to English.

try this to translate.....

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

kappy50
04-08-2010, 08:24 AM
I went to the website I found from google, and it lists info for a station in Nashville, TN. On the map on the front it also says Memphis. Nothing for LA or even AL- WI, IL, MI, GA, NC, TN, FL and TX were it.

Just a note though- I would think either someone would have to suggest it to her or she would have to see the station herself and go in to find out about it. I've lived in Brownsville where it lists a station (where I most likely would have noticed at least one of the buses) and along I-10 for years and never remember seeing a bus, never mind a station. I'm leaning more towards someone telling her about it. I couldn't find out much from the website- 10th grade Spanish was many moons ago and I couldn't find any way to convert it to English.

I had my employee (who is mexican) call the Tornado Bus line in SA inquring about a ticket from SA to FL. She asked if they came through memphis to get there and they said they did not. My employee says if the bus line goes through a city where there is no Tornado terminal they'll stop at a Greyhound terminal if there is one, if not they have designated Mexican Stores they will stop at. But it still doesn't tell us the route they used.

jessicat
04-08-2010, 09:15 AM
:blowkiss:

LOL, BBM, I live right down the road from the bus station, it's not so bad, but i have to agree, if you are not from this side of town, or even from this side of town, why would you come here? it does seem kind of scary, if you are not familiar with it. and there is alot of crime here on the south/southwest. and this bus station is so out of the way. you would have to know it was here. Even me, knowing its there, I take greyhound if i need a bus.

someone told her it was there? or she was really trying hard to fly under the radar(hello sore thumb!! Only white person on the bus!)

Ya I believe somebody had to have told her to go there. Its just not the bus station you think of when someone is looking to go by bus somewhere. At least thats my opinion. I went to Chicago by bus once and of course the first bus line I thought of was Greyhound. My friend and I went from Laredo tho from a station called Conejo Bus Lines. I just don't think a single, white female is going to use that as her first option. My husband is Hispanic and the first thought he had was wow she probably was the only Anglo there. It just seems really strange to me. Again I think someone had to have told her to go to that station.

YellowSubmarine
04-08-2010, 10:09 AM
I don't think the journal or the so called couple is anything concrete either. She did make LE search for his body in the landfill, and they spend over 300K in doing so, and found nothing. It sounds like another red herring on Elizabeth's part to throw off LE and the family as to what she truly did. I don't want to burst anyone's bubble- but she is extremely deceptive and full of lies, so whatever she writes down cannot be trusted either. She may have directions to the park for a nefarious reason. JMO.

Of course everyone has the right to their own opinion and I respect yours, but I absolutely DO NOT believe Mr.G is lying about the journal. He has an excellent reputation and is not looking for media attention. Re: the couple, if they didn't exist, why was their other sightings of EJ with a couple? Just seems to me there is WAY more evidence pointing towards her giving Gabe away than there is to murder. Actually, there is NO evidence pointing to murder except for her spiteful words meant to hurt Logan.


(hello sore thumb!! Only white person on the bus!)

he had was wow she probably was the only Anglo there

The HG set it all up. He led her to the couple and told her what bus to take. Maybe he works there? Wonder how many other mothers have used this bus line . . . .

Khristi
04-08-2010, 05:45 PM
Of course I'm not saying anything bad about Mr. Ken Gamble. I'm sure he is only doing his job, and I'm sure he's an excellent PI. But you must keep in mind Eliz. sent law enforcement on a wild goose chase with the landfill, she skipped town after Gabe went missing, and also ran from Logan after she kidnapped the child from AZ. It seems inconsistent a woman like that would write in a journal what she did with baby when her whole motive was keep the baby away from the father. The journal seems hopeful, and I'm sure many of us rejoice in the news that we think a handoff happened, but keep in mind, those are elizabeth's entries. I'm sure the detective is doing his best to find the baby, but only IF, and it is a big IF the journal can be trusted. It will call come to light in a few short weeks what really happened. And we are all guilty of something too- of having love and concern for a child we have not even met. The truth will be revealed when Gabriel if found, but take everything with a grain of salt as Elizab. has proven to be extremely deceptive. We all pray the baby is found. The sooner the better. Of course everyone has their opinion, and it why we come on to this board- to share opinion, ideas, theories, etc.. But to me, if the journal is real, then a couple would have obviously come forward already because there is no couple willing to face felony charges and life in prison to keep a baby that has been reported kidnapped. That would have happened within the first 48 hours or few days of him being reported. And Eliz. would reveal the living baby in heartbeat, not for his welfare, but to save her own skin. She would produce a living baby immediately as I'm sure LE has threatened her with the worst cast scenario for her fate if she does not reveal where the baby is. Her keeping quiet is very disturbing, and to me indicates guilt. So the journal entry seems fishy to me... Again, Just my opinion. Let us pray the baby be found.

BeanE
04-08-2010, 06:04 PM
If I haven't said it already, Khristi, welcome to Websleuths! Good to have you here :) And thank you for sharing your thoughts.

What I don't you considering in your post is other information that has come to light in the past several weeks that has not been publicly released.

Many people who follow many cases are under the impression that the only information that's available to those involved in the investigation is what's publicly released in the media as the investigation goes along. That's not the case.

Certain information has to be kept confidential in order to protect the safety and ensure the rescue of the missing person.

Personally, I am confident there is more than the journal to lend that affords Ken his confidence in the conclusion he has reached.

I keep in mind that I could be wrong, and that Ken could be wrong. Nevertheless, based on everything I know right now, I'm with Ken 100%.

BeanE

Khristi
04-08-2010, 06:24 PM
I just watched a video where Logan says they are moving away from illegal adoption theory. I'm not sure what to make of it- But I think we all agree that we all want the baby to be found- and that's what the board is for- to share ideas, opinions, theories. So if Logan and the Pi move away from illegal adoption theory, then what theory now. On the video, he said he could not reveal that.... I pray to God in Heavan that my theory is 100% Wrong.

BeanE
04-08-2010, 06:40 PM
I just watched a video where Logan says they are moving away from illegal adoption theory. I'm not sure what to make of it- But I think we all agree that we all want the baby to be found- and that's what the board is for- to share ideas, opinions, theories. So if Logan and the Pi move away from illegal adoption theory, then what theory now. On the video, he said he could not reveal that.... I pray to God in Heavan that my theory is 100% Wrong.

You might want to poke around the news articles and videos from around March 26. The thread on Ken Gamble is helpful to track those news stories. I believe they're all linked in there, and it's a short thread so far, so easy to poke get through. The Ken Gamble thread is here:
Logan's PI Ken Gamble's Search for Gabe - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Ken contends that someone (referred to as third party) suggested to Elizabeth that she put Gabe into hiding, then arranged the couple, and gave Elizabeth directions to the park along with a code word the couple would identify themselves by.

Here's one of the related news stories.

March 26, 2010 - 3:20PM

Private investigator Ken Gamble, who is working with the McQuearys in the search for Gabriel, said there is no evidence indicating that Johnson sold Gabriel in an underground adoption, but said there are indications she gave him to someone she entrusted who has the boy in hiding.

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/152240

sandangel
04-08-2010, 06:40 PM
I just finished watching the video of Logan being interviewed. He looks so exhausted and seems very sad. When the lady asked if he is still leaning on the thought that Gabriel was illegally adopted, he answered that the investagation is beginning to lead away from that standpoint. That is very bothersome to me.... doesn't sound positive at all.

I still hope and pray with all of my heart that baby Gabriel is found alive and well. But after watching this video I fear it will not turn out this way.

Another thing that has been on my mind is that of EJ did kill Gabriel and disposed of his body, he is likely to be in that landfill somewhere. I believe she put that precious baby in the diaper bag (which to my knowledge the bag has never been found), and disposed of it in a different location from where she was staying. Therefore the evidence would be elsewhere in the landfill that was not searched.

I am so praying that I have this all wrong and that Gabriel is still alive and will be found safe and healthy and SOON!

BeanE
04-08-2010, 06:48 PM
I just finished watching the video of Logan being interviewed. He looks so exhausted and seems very sad. When the lady asked if he is still leaning on the thought that Gabriel was illegally adopted, he answered that the investagation is beginning to lead away from that standpoint. That is very bothersome to me.... doesn't sound positive at all.

I still hope and pray with all of my heart that baby Gabriel is found alive and well. But after watching this video I fear it will not turn out this way.

Another thing that has been on my mind is that of EJ did kill Gabriel and disposed of his body, he is likely to be in that landfill somewhere. I believe she put that precious baby in the diaper bag (which to my knowledge the bag has never been found), and disposed of it in a different location from where she was staying. Therefore the evidence would be elsewhere in the landfill that was not searched.

I am so praying that I have this all wrong and that Gabriel is still alive and will be found safe and healthy and SOON!

Hi sandangel. Welcome to Websleuths! Great to have you here :)

Scroll back to the last few posts that explain some more about Ken's theory. For a long time, I thought that most likely Elizabeth had harmed Gabe, but with the information that's come out recently, and Ken's theory, and all the amazing work he's done, I am more sure than I've ever been, not only that Gabe is alive, but that he will be found - and soon!

YellowSubmarine
04-08-2010, 06:48 PM
Regarding the journal -- a poster back a little spoke of her husband who is Aussie (as is Mr.Gamble) and what he refers to as a journal is what we consider more of a planner or date book of sorts. So I don't think this is a diary type of journal. It's possible, but because he comments about her "notes", I'm thinking maybe she jotted down the necessary info in a date book sort of thing - which is what I do when I want to take info with me. She had directions to the park, how she would identify the couple and where they'd be sitting. She also made "notes" (as Gamble said) about shelters and womens centers she'd called.

BeanE
04-08-2010, 06:51 PM
We have a thread for full discussion of whether Elizabeth killed Gabe here:
Did Elizabeth kill Gabriel? POLL ADDED - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Please see that thread for more further discussion of that topic, so we can keep this thread focused on its topic of the hand off of Gabe at the park.

Thanks!
BeanE

sandangel
04-08-2010, 06:58 PM
Thank you BeanE!! I am proud to be a part of the WS community.

I have read what the PI has found recently and was very hopeful after hearing what he has said about EJ's journal, etc. I just lost some hope after seeing Logan's interview when he stated that the investagation is now leaning away from an underground adoption. When asked what avenue the investagation is taking now, he said he could not answer that at this time. That is why I'm worried. I can not imagine what direction this is going now.

sandangel
04-08-2010, 07:00 PM
We have a thread for full discussion of whether Elizabeth killed Gabe here:
Did Elizabeth kill Gabriel? POLL ADDED - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94551)

Please see that thread for more further discussion of that topic, so we can keep this thread focused on its topic of the hand off of Gabe at the park.

Thanks!
BeanE

Thanks BeanE, will do.

BeanE
04-08-2010, 07:04 PM
Thank you BeanE!! I am proud to be a part of the WS community.

I have read what the PI has found recently and was very hopeful after hearing what he has said about EJ's journal, etc. I just lost some hope after seeing Logan's interview when he stated that the investagation is now leaning away from an underground adoption. When asked what avenue the investagation is taking now, he said he could not answer that at this time. That is why I'm worried. I can not imagine what direction this is going now.

I'm pretty sure it's the theory Ken talked about, that a third party suggested to Elizabeth that she put Gabe into hiding, and arranged the couple in the park for that purpose.

That actually increases Gabe's chances of being found quickly and safely significantly.

Khristi
04-08-2010, 07:18 PM
Let's say that Gabe was handed off in the park. Wouldn't LE have gone through her phone, all the numbers, and contacted those people? Just something to think about, but when she described the couple, she was vague too, so that doesn't bode well. I would imagine LE gone through her numbers on her cell thoroughly to see who he got handed off to, but at this point, no one yet to come forward. Just food for thought, something to think of. Let's hope someone saw something at the park that would assist LE in solving this case.

kissdegirl
04-08-2010, 07:19 PM
I don't find Logan's interview disturbing or disheartening. He was simply answering the reporter the best he could, and probably trying not to say what he's not suppose to yet because of an ongoing investigation. He said they are leaning away from an illegal adoption, which is what Ken said too about the third party, the park, and the couple. Logan's interview was very short, and that reporter directed it for what she wanted. I find Ken's unedited report much more comforting, and I personally think he is simply better equipped emotionally and experience wise to speak to the media. If it were me, talking about my kids, lord knows I would probably stutter and mispeak. I think Logan's doing the best he can, and really he said nothing in that interview that was any different to me than what Ken said. :)

kappy50
04-08-2010, 09:26 PM
On one of the video's and I think I HAVE watched them all...it says for that park..established April 9, 1979...maybe tomorrow will be an omen...maybe not..just hoping...if this is the park he was taken...maybe this will be the day he is found...Golly Bill, I sure hope so!

YellowSubmarine
04-08-2010, 09:34 PM
Let's say that Gabe was handed off in the park. Wouldn't LE have gone through her phone, all the numbers, and contacted those people? Just something to think about, but when she described the couple, she was vague too, so that doesn't bode well. I would imagine LE gone through her numbers on her cell thoroughly to see who he got handed off to, but at this point, no one yet to come forward. Just food for thought, something to think of. Let's hope someone saw something at the park that would assist LE in solving this case.


BBM --

LE definitely went through the phone she had on her when they found her, but that's not to say there weren't any other phones she had used - other cells, hotel phone, pay phone. There's probably a whole slew of clues on her laptop, which I'm sure will never be found.

She's been vague on everything, IF she's spoken. She isn't going to talk. Period. Any hope finding Gabe lies on the shoulders of LE, Mr.Gamble and any outsiders that may notice him.

kappy50
04-08-2010, 10:24 PM
BBM --

LE definitely went through the phone she had on her when they found her, but that's not to say there weren't any other phones she had used - other cells, hotel phone, pay phone. There's probably a whole slew of clues on her laptop, which I'm sure will never be found.

She's been vague on everything, IF she's spoken. She isn't going to talk. Period. Any hope finding Gabe lies on the shoulders of LE, Mr.Gamble and any outsiders that may notice him.

I agree with what you are saying. The only thing is Mr. Gamble said EJ was talking...now to what extent,we don't know....

Litlred
04-08-2010, 11:07 PM
Let's say that Gabe was handed off in the park. Wouldn't LE have gone through her phone, all the numbers, and contacted those people? Just something to think about, but when she described the couple, she was vague too, so that doesn't bode well. I would imagine LE gone through her numbers on her cell thoroughly to see who he got handed off to, but at this point, no one yet to come forward. Just food for thought, something to think of. Let's hope someone saw something at the park that would assist LE in solving this case.

I'm wondering if the reason why she was vague is because she can not remember? Perhaps she was drinking heavily and was depressed as this ariticle states? If she was drinking her memory of it all would not be very good. Depresssion can have that effect as well (bad memory- trying to forget).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Mom's diary shows she was drunk, depressed, when Baby Gabriel was given to couple in Leon Valley Park


http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=119078&article=6940800

kissdegirl
04-08-2010, 11:30 PM
Let's say that Gabe was handed off in the park. Wouldn't LE have gone through her phone, all the numbers, and contacted those people? Just something to think about, but when she described the couple, she was vague too, so that doesn't bode well. I would imagine LE gone through her numbers on her cell thoroughly to see who he got handed off to, but at this point, no one yet to come forward. Just food for thought, something to think of. Let's hope someone saw something at the park that would assist LE in solving this case.

How would going through her phone numbers point to the couple, if the couple was arranged by a third party? She had no contact with them, doesn't know who they are, and maybe not even their names. She surely didn't have their numbers if she was given a place and a time to meet them, plus some "code" word, or something they would say to identify themselves as being from that 3rd party. The 3rd party was someone she trusted and was in contact with. So, I imagine LE does have their (the 3rd party's) information, just not necessarily the people they arranged to pick up Gabriel.

Also, like litlred said, she was not in a very good mental state to be remembering facts clearly. She probably would have had to write down the information or she would have forgotten it. I would be willing to bet she also wrote directions to the bus station, but that is MOO.

We don't know how "vague" she was with the description of the couple. We only know what has been released. Perhaps there is good reason not to release a full description. Maybe there is only suspicion as to whom they are, but LE needs something more concrete to go after them and a full description would scare them off and have them lawyering up? So we need a sighting, we need to still get the word out and get this thing done.

Litlred
04-08-2010, 11:45 PM
Does anyone know if there are flyers up in the park and in the area?

momtective
04-08-2010, 11:53 PM
My personal opinion...it wasn't a diary per se but rather a spiral notebook in which she wrote notes, directions, instructions, addresses, phone numbers, daily to do lists and apparently a chronicle of her days on the run.
I hope it's filled with every little detail that will bring Gabriel home. I also hope that the records that Ken Gamble speaks of that have been subpoenaed as those of Tammi & Jack Smith for every single phone they have access to; home, business and every cell phone.

kissdegirl
04-09-2010, 12:25 AM
Does anyone know if there are flyers up in the park and in the area?

I don't know for sure, but they were working on that as soon as the news hit on Gabriel's FB page.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=251236072296


That might be a good question here too? :)Post Fliers for Gabe - In Your Town or Online! - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

ETA....sorry I meant to post the link to our flier thread here on WS, lol :blushing:

Boo Scout
04-09-2010, 08:40 AM
Of course I'm not saying anything bad about Mr. Ken Gamble. I'm sure he is only doing his job, and I'm sure he's an excellent PI. But you must keep in mind Eliz. sent law enforcement on a wild goose chase with the landfill, she skipped town after Gabe went missing, and also ran from Logan after she kidnapped the child from AZ. It seems inconsistent a woman like that would write in a journal what she did with baby when her whole motive was keep the baby away from the father. The journal seems hopeful, and I'm sure many of us rejoice in the news that we think a handoff happened, but keep in mind, those are elizabeth's entries. I'm sure the detective is doing his best to find the baby, but only IF, and it is a big IF the journal can be trusted. It will call come to light in a few short weeks what really happened. And we are all guilty of something too- of having love and concern for a child we have not even met. The truth will be revealed when Gabriel if found, but take everything with a grain of salt as Elizab. has proven to be extremely deceptive. We all pray the baby is found. The sooner the better. Of course everyone has their opinion, and it why we come on to this board- to share opinion, ideas, theories, etc.. But to me, if the journal is real, then a couple would have obviously come forward already because there is no couple willing to face felony charges and life in prison to keep a baby that has been reported kidnapped. That would have happened within the first 48 hours or few days of him being reported. And Eliz. would reveal the living baby in heartbeat, not for his welfare, but to save her own skin. She would produce a living baby immediately as I'm sure LE has threatened her with the worst cast scenario for her fate if she does not reveal where the baby is. Her keeping quiet is very disturbing, and to me indicates guilt. So the journal entry seems fishy to me... Again, Just my opinion. Let us pray the baby be found.

BBM...probably OT for this particular thread, but I have to say, I think there is GREAT reason for the couple NOT to have come forward. We don't know the exact motivations, but let's say for one example that EJ spun a tale of domestic violence and threats against her and Gabriel...then even when Gabriel was reported kidnapped in the beginning, the couple would have felt like the media did not know the whole truth behind EJ's running...and they would have continued to protect Gabriel. Now, even if they no longer believe that Logan was a threat to EJ and Gabriel's safety, if hiding him has worked this long, why not continue to do it rather than face felony charges? JMOO.

iluvmua
04-09-2010, 08:52 AM
BBM...probably OT for this particular thread, but I have to say, I think there is GREAT reason for the couple NOT to have come forward. We don't know the exact motivations, but let's say for one example that EJ spun a tale of domestic violence and threats against her and Gabriel...then even when Gabriel was reported kidnapped in the beginning, the couple would have felt like the media did not know the whole truth behind EJ's running...and they would have continued to protect Gabriel. Now, even if they no longer believe that Logan was a threat to EJ and Gabriel's safety, if hiding him has worked this long, why not continue to do it rather than face felony charges? JMOO.

because giving Gabriel back to his family is the right thing to do

Boo Scout
04-09-2010, 09:09 AM
[/B]

because giving Gabriel back to his family is the right thing to do

Yes, it is the right thing to do, IF you haven't convinced yourself that Gabriel is better off in the situation he is in rather than with Logan. And that could very well be the case. I would like to believe that morals/ethics were absolute, and that we could all agree on them, but in reality our definitions of right and wrong are subjective, and one person's right may very well not make it onto another's list.

BeanE
04-09-2010, 09:21 AM
This thread is to discuss the specifics of the hand off of Gabe at the park. To discuss other details of related info, please see this thread:

Theory: EJ gave Gabe to someone she entrusted who has him in hiding


or this thread for a list of other related discussion topics as well as reference information:

Ken's New Info - Gabe Hidden/No Adoption - **No Discussion**


If you're unable to find an appropriate thread to discuss the topic you wish to discuss, please feel free to begin a new thread for your topic.

Thanks!
BeanE

BeanE
04-09-2010, 09:26 AM
This would be a good time to recap the details of the hand off of the park, to help this thread get back on topic, and for easy reference to those details as the discussion moves forward.

Thanks!
BeanE

TXHOPE
04-09-2010, 09:59 AM
How would going through her phone numbers point to the couple, if the couple was arranged by a third party? She had no contact with them, doesn't know who they are, and maybe not even their names. She surely didn't have their numbers if she was given a place and a time to meet them, plus some "code" word, or something they would say to identify themselves as being from that 3rd party. The 3rd party was someone she trusted and was in contact with. So, I imagine LE does have their (the 3rd party's) information, just not necessarily the people they arranged to pick up Gabriel.

Also, like litlred said, she was not in a very good mental state to be remembering facts clearly. She probably would have had to write down the information or she would have forgotten it. I would be willing to bet she also wrote directions to the bus station, but that is MOO.

We don't know how "vague" she was with the description of the couple. We only know what has been released. Perhaps there is good reason not to release a full description. Maybe there is only suspicion as to whom they are, but LE needs something more concrete to go after them and a full description would scare them off and have them lawyering up? So we need a sighting, we need to still get the word out and get this thing done.

I also think it's very possible she could of had another prepaid phone that she ditched before she got on the bus. I don't think they would of left any trace of a phone record. HG could of brought her a phone as well.

Khristi
04-09-2010, 04:14 PM
After watching the video, that was what I was trying to say- the handoff, supposedly was deducted from reading Elizabeth's journal, (or may have been a day planner). It the PI and Logan get info from that source, it may not be a reliable source. If may have conclusions on a false premise, does that make sense. Therefore, they went from "baby is alive" to " it's going away from illegal adoption". I'm speculating, but possibly after exploring the handoff lead, they conclude it's not that. Mr. Gamble may have said prematurely the baby is alive. And then going away from illegal adoption to having the baby hidden, I feel that is unlikely too. JMO. So, my only deduction is the the fact that is worst case scenario... Well, I've said a hundred time, but let's pray the baby be found. The handoff to me looks like red herring, possibly something Eliz. wrote down to throw off investigators and Logan, similar to the way she said the baby was in the dumspter, and that turned out to be a dead end too. JMO

BeanE
04-09-2010, 04:23 PM
After watching the video, that was what I was trying to say- the handoff, supposedly was deducted from reading Elizabeth's journal, (or may have been a day planner). It the PI and Logan get info from that source, it may not be a reliable source. If may have conclusions on a false premise, does that make sense. Therefore, they went from "baby is alive" to " it's going away from illegal adoption". I'm speculating, but possibly after exploring the handoff lead, they conclude it's not that. Mr. Gamble may have said prematurely the baby is alive. And then going away from illegal adoption to having the baby hidden, I feel that is unlikely too. JMO. So, my only deduction is the the fact that is worst case scenario... Well, I've said a hundred time, but let's pray the baby be found. The handoff to me looks like red herring, possibly something Eliz. wrote down to throw off investigators and Logan, similar to the way she said the baby was in the dumspter, and that turned out to be a dead end too. JMO

They didn't go from "baby is alive" to "it's going away from illegal adoption". They went from "it's going away from illegal adoption" to "it's going away from illegal adoption".

I would agree that the journal is a red herring if that were the only source for the new information, however, Ken indicates several times that the new information comes from more sources, not just the journal.

See this thread for more of the facts and details:
Ken's New Info - Gabe Hidden/No Adoption - **No Discussion** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community