Trial Discussion Thread #7 weekend thread

[Val1]

Got a problem with Burger's testimony.

She said she heard a woman screaming, then a man shouting for help three times, then gut shots.

If OP intended to kill RS, why is he shouting for help before he shoots her? This supports his account, which is that he shouted for help after firing the shots. So did Burger really hear the cricket bat, not the gun shots?

However, OP's story rests on there being no screams from RS at any point. So we're then back to the idea that Burger heard OP screaming, not RS.

None of this makes any sense to me.

It makes total sense to me if they were in a shouting match and he taunted her by mimicking her cries for help.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Hi everyone. I've been following your fascinating discussions for a while now, and I hope it's OK for me to join in.

I don't have anything of earth-shattering originality to share, most of the things that have occurred to me have been raised by you guys, but here's a few of my thoughts.

I don't believe OP. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt after the BH and before the trial, but the more evidence that comes to light, the more convinced I am of his guilt.

1) According to him he'd just spoken to Reeva when he heard the "intruder" so he knew she was awake. In order for him to do what he did....creep down a dark corridor clutching his gun....he would have to be in genuine and real fear for his life, so this is one of the scariest moments he has ever faced. His heart would have been pounding, his mouth dry, his hands shaking - and yet he says absolutely nothing to his wide awake girlfriend. No whispered contact to reassure himself he wasn't alone - no instruction to her to hide herself, no shushing to make sure she doesn't give the game away by saying loudly, "Oi, where are you going with that gun, Oscar?". He's not worried that she'll follow him. Nope. None of that. Defies all logic.

2) He screams at her twice to call the police - before and after the shooting. So he considers them the appropriate people to call at times of crisis. So does he call them when he realises the extent of the crisis? No. He calls the estate manager. This indicates that his panic is chiefly about the trouble he's in rather than help for Reeva. If this had been a total accident, I think he still would have worried about that, but it would have come second and he'd have been mostly concerned about getting help for her. I think this reveals his guilt more than anything else.

3) Why does not seeing Reeva in bed immediately lead to the conclusion that it was her he shot? He'd just blasted out the toilet door - did he expect her to be meekly sitting in bed? She'd have hidden or tried to run away, but Oscar doesn't check this out he just sees she's not in bed and it "dawns" on him. She WOULDN'T have been sitting in bed through all that - so why did he think she would be?

4) Fight or flight is a biological, instinctive reaction to danger - there's little thought involved and no one chooses which one to go with. It's a split second thing where your compelled into the action that is most likely to save your life. Flight is always the first instinct - people in true danger run if they possibly can, without stopping to consider the matter. Oscar's escape was a few feet to his left via the bedroom door. He and Reeva could have been through it in moments. OK, the door was locked but unless the key was inaccessible (and why would it be?) it would have been an extra moment to unlock it.

Oscar CHOSE to go into the bathroom. Only cornered people or angry people do this. Oscar was not cornered...so he chose his course of action. Panic did not propel him down that corridor, anger did.

Sorry - for a first post this is going on a bit. Nearly there.......!

Lastly - the bat sounds. Hmmmmm. I think this is a big, big red herring because I am not convinced that Dr Stipp was close enough to hear a bat smack a door. This is the kind of sound that only people in the same house or possibly very near neighbours might hear, but I don't think anyone at a distance would - and if they did, it would be very faint.

Gun shots are loud because of the amount of energy they produce, which is also what makes them so deadly. OP wielding a cricket bat could not produce even a fraction of the energy a gun could, so the sounds would not be anything like equal in sound. I've seen that YT video, btw, and I would really like to know what a physicist thinks about that. But I, personally, don't buy it.

So, I'm wondering if all the bangs that people heard were actually gunshots and, while the door bashing took place, no one heard that.

Pure supposition on my part, but maybe there were more shots than just the four through the door. Maybe OP was standing by the open bathroom window, arguing with Reeva through the door. Maybe he tells her to come out or he'll shoot the lock off (after a few bashes with the bat), and shoots a couple through the window to show he's serious. Her screams intensify, but she doesn't come out. So he tells her to get away from the door because he's going to shoot off the lock, and does. But she hadn't moved so got hit.

I don't think he planned to kill her, but I am certain he knew she was behind the door. His version makes absolutely no sense,and as Judge Judy often says, if something doesn't make sense, it's usually not true!

Sorry.....I shall shut up now. Thanks for reading my rambles (if you have!)

Welcome. Always interesting to hear everyone's view, including those with whom I disagree. Like you at the beginning I hoped this was some tragic accident but once the Bail Hearing was published I became very suspicious and as more and more evidence emerges it becomes, IMO, impossible for him not to have known he was shooting Reeva.

To add to your list. Also, he did not use the emergency security alarm in his home which would have brought help within a minute or two.

 

[minor4th]

Sorry, the bail hearing was on 19th not 15th February 2013; he had 5 days to get it together, though given it had to be typed up, maybe he produced it late on 18th. He did actually sign it on 19th February at 7.30 am.

My bad.

 

[Interested Bystander]

My bad.

I've been there more than once - LOL.

 

[minor4th]

It's been mentioned that there is known corruption in the SA government. You yourself mentioned it was all the way to the top in a previous post. I'm not familiar with SA govnt so this is pure speculation on my part.

Think about it...You have a known celebrity who has lots of money. He kills someone. Police arrive, many who are huge fans of the accused. He is a national hero. Some cops its wouldn't matter. Yet chances are in a corrupt force that one of them agree to foul the investigation a little bit here and there so that OP has a chance to get off? The lack of procedure in regards to securing a crime scene just mystifies me. I know little of court proceedings but enough to not handle the gun without gloves or walk through the scene touching stuff, moving things around, and without protective clothing. Either these officers are truly incompetent or somebody was bought off to taint the evidence. They KNOW this case will attract the media attentions so you would think people would do their best. Yes, theres always a few incompetent people in the mix but so many loose ends? Surely this can't be. In a corrupt govtnt, what wouldn't somebody be paid off (by a watch perhaps) to mishandle the crime scene and evidence.

It's possible the crime scene was mishandled on purpose to give OP a break. It's also possible the crime scene was mishandled on purpose to try to gain an advantage towards conviction. It's also possible that the crime scene was mishandled due to carelessness and incompetence.

Any of those are possible and really can't be ruled out

 

[BiancaS]

Got a problem with Burger's testimony.

She said she heard a woman screaming, then a man shouting for help three times, then gun shots.

If OP intended to kill RS, why is he shouting for help before he shoots her? This supports his account, which is that he shouted for help after firing the shots. So did Burger really hear the cricket bat, not the gun shots?

However, OP's story rests on there being no screams from RS at any point. So we're then back to the idea that Burger heard OP screaming, not RS.

None of this makes any sense to me.

Some have suggested he was mocking her yelling for help.

 

[LemonMousse]

The "help, help, help"'s from the male voice were not as despairing apparently - monotoned and flat, iirc. Did someone also say they sounded a bit embarrassed? This would fit with mockery.

 

[Really?]

Got a problem with Burger's testimony.

She said she heard a woman screaming, then a man shouting for help three times, then gun shots.

If OP intended to kill RS, why is he shouting for help before he shoots her? This supports his account, which is that he shouted for help after firing the shots. So did Burger really hear the cricket bat, not the gun shots?

However, OP's story rests on there being no screams from RS at any point. So we're then back to the idea that Burger heard OP screaming, not RS.

None of this makes any sense to me.

BBM.....he was mocking her.......sad really......moooo

 

[wishIknewmore]

It's possible the crime scene was mishandled on purpose to give OP a break. It's also possible the crime scene was mishandled on purpose to try to gain an advantage towards conviction. It's also possible that the crime scene was mishandled due to carelessness and incompetence.

Any of those are possible and really can't be ruled out

I agree. I'm very skeptical of OP's story but I'm very concerned he's not getting a fair trial due the to mishandling of evidence. It certainly can go either way and probably has.

 

[Really?]

I agree. I'm very skeptical of OP's story but I'm very concerned he's not getting a fair trial due the to mishandling of evidence. It certainly can go either way and probably has.

let us just see was monday has in store for us....:scared:

 

[sorrell skye]

Sorry, the bail hearing was on 19th not 15th February 2013; he had 5 days to get it together, though given it had to be typed up, maybe he produced it late on 18th. He did actually sign it on 19th February at 7.30 am.

I find this particular wording curious in his BH affidavit:

I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom.

http://gretawire.foxnewsinsider.com/2013/02/19/copy-of-oscar-pistorius-affidavit-click-to-read/

This bugged me last year when I first read it, and it still bugs me.

Here's why:

OP wrote his BH hearing affidavit AFTER there was no doubt whatsoever that an intruder had NOT entered his home - AFTER he realized he had shot & killed Reeva.

Yet, in his BH affidavit, he wrote that he "realized" that the intruder was in the toilet, as if there were, in fact, an intruder.

Because there was, in fact, no intruder, he should have, IMO, written something to the effect that 'at the time, I believed an intruder was in the toilet'.

Throughout his affidavit, he used past tense language to describe a past event, so it's not as if he was describing the events of that night in present tense. It's impossible to "realize" a past tense thought as if it were true, when reality has subsequently proven that thought to be false.

It's only possible to "realize" a past tense thought that is fact-based and supported by reality.

There was, in fact, no intruder. So OP could not have "realized" there was an intruder when he wrote his BH affidavit - days after he killed Reeva.

At the time he wrote his affidavit, a fact-based realization would have been for him to have written that he 'believed an intruder was in the toilet'.

IMO, he wasn't speaking from memory when he wrote the affidavit. IMO, he was continuing his promotion of the intruder story that he made up likely within seconds or minutes after killing Reeva.

 

[sorrell skye]

I agree. I'm very skeptical of OP's story but I'm very concerned he's not getting a fair trial due the to mishandling of evidence. It certainly can go either way and probably has.

I'm worried that Reeva may not get justice due to mishandling of evidence, unqualified forensic analysts, etc.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

"Why does not seeing Reeva in bed immediately lead to the conclusion that it was her he shot? He'd just blasted out the toilet door - did he expect her to be meekly sitting in bed? She'd have hidden or tried to run away, but Oscar doesn't check this out he just sees she's not in bed and it "dawns" on him. She WOULDN'T have been sitting in bed through all that - so why did he think she would be?"


This is a very good point!

 

[wishIknewmore]

I'm worried that Reeva may not get justice due to mishandling of evidence, unqualified forensic analysts, etc.

I guess I assumed that was obvious.

Can you just imagine how frustrated Reeva's friends and family are right now?

 

[wishIknewmore]

What I find ironic is that if Reeva had woke up to sounds on a the patio, she would have had more of a reason to shoot the "burglar" on the patio since the door was open than OP did shooting at a closed door in the bathroom.

 

[kittychi]

It's been mentioned that there is known corruption in the SA government. You yourself mentioned it was all the way to the top in a previous post. I'm not familiar with SA govnt so this is pure speculation on my part.

Think about it...You have a known celebrity who has lots of money. He kills someone. Police arrive, many who are huge fans of the accused. He is a national hero. Some cops its wouldn't matter. Yet chances are in a corrupt force that one of them agree to foul the investigation a little bit here and there so that OP has a chance to get off? The lack of procedure in regards to securing a crime scene just mystifies me. I know little of court proceedings but enough to not handle the gun without gloves or walk through the scene touching stuff, moving things around, and without protective clothing. Either these officers are truly incompetent or somebody was bought off to taint the evidence. They KNOW this case will attract the media attentions so you would think people would do their best. Yes, theres always a few incompetent people in the mix but so many loose ends? Surely this can't be. In a corrupt govtnt, what wouldn't somebody be paid off (by a watch perhaps) to mishandle the crime scene and evidence.

Totally agree. I, myself, know enough to secure a crime scene without these mistakes!

 

[lisasalinger]

Hi everyone. I've been following your fascinating discussions for a while now, and I hope it's OK for me to join in.

I don't have anything of earth-shattering originality to share, most of the things that have occurred to me have been raised by you guys, but here's a few of my thoughts.

I don't believe OP. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt after the BH and before the trial, but the more evidence that comes to light, the more convinced I am of his guilt.

1) According to him he'd just spoken to Reeva when he heard the "intruder" so he knew she was awake. In order for him to do what he did....creep down a dark corridor clutching his gun....he would have to be in genuine and real fear for his life, so this is one of the scariest moments he has ever faced. His heart would have been pounding, his mouth dry, his hands shaking - and yet he says absolutely nothing to his wide awake girlfriend. No whispered contact to reassure himself he wasn't alone - no instruction to her to hide herself, no shushing to make sure she doesn't give the game away by saying loudly, "Oi, where are you going with that gun, Oscar?". He's not worried that she'll follow him. Nope. None of that. Defies all logic.

2) He screams at her twice to call the police - before and after the shooting. So he considers them the appropriate people to call at times of crisis. So does he call them when he realises the extent of the crisis? No. He calls the estate manager. This indicates that his panic is chiefly about the trouble he's in rather than help for Reeva. If this had been a total accident, I think he still would have worried about that, but it would have come second and he'd have been mostly concerned about getting help for her. I think this reveals his guilt more than anything else.

3) Why does not seeing Reeva in bed immediately lead to the conclusion that it was her he shot? He'd just blasted out the toilet door - did he expect her to be meekly sitting in bed? She'd have hidden or tried to run away, but Oscar doesn't check this out he just sees she's not in bed and it "dawns" on him. She WOULDN'T have been sitting in bed through all that - so why did he think she would be?
4) Fight or flight is a biological, instinctive reaction to danger - there's little thought involved and no one chooses which one to go with. It's a split second thing where your compelled into the action that is most likely to save your life. Flight is always the first instinct - people in true danger run if they possibly can, without stopping to consider the matter. Oscar's escape was a few feet to his left via the bedroom door. He and Reeva could have been through it in moments. OK, the door was locked but unless the key was inaccessible (and why would it be?) it would have been an extra moment to unlock it.

Oscar CHOSE to go into the bathroom. Only cornered people or angry people do this. Oscar was not cornered...so he chose his course of action. Panic did not propel him down that corridor, anger did.
Sorry - for a first post this is going on a bit. Nearly there.......!

Lastly - the bat sounds. Hmmmmm. I think this is a big, big red herring because I am not convinced that Dr Stipp was close enough to hear a bat smack a door. This is the kind of sound that only people in the same house or possibly very near neighbours might hear, but I don't think anyone at a distance would - and if they did, it would be very faint.

Gun shots are loud because of the amount of energy they produce, which is also what makes them so deadly. OP wielding a cricket bat could not produce even a fraction of the energy a gun could, so the sounds would not be anything like equal in sound. I've seen that YT video, btw, and I would really like to know what a physicist thinks about that. But I, personally, don't buy it.

So, I'm wondering if all the bangs that people heard were actually gunshots and, while the door bashing took place, no one heard that.

Pure supposition on my part, but maybe there were more shots than just the four through the door. Maybe OP was standing by the open bathroom window, arguing with Reeva through the door. Maybe he tells her to come out or he'll shoot the lock off (after a few bashes with the bat), and shoots a couple through the window to show he's serious. Her screams intensify, but she doesn't come out. So he tells her to get away from the door because he's going to shoot off the lock, and does. But she hadn't moved so got hit.

I don't think he planned to kill her, but I am certain he knew she was behind the door. His version makes absolutely no sense,and as Judge Judy often says, if something doesn't make sense, it's usually not true!

Sorry.....I shall shut up now. Thanks for reading my rambles (if you have!)

Awesome, awesome post!!! Welcome :seeya:

 

[kittychi]

Hi everyone. I've been following your fascinating discussions for a while now, and I hope it's OK for me to join in.

I don't have anything of earth-shattering originality to share, most of the things that have occurred to me have been raised by you guys, but here's a few of my thoughts.

I don't believe OP. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt after the BH and before the trial, but the more evidence that comes to light, the more convinced I am of his guilt.

1) According to him he'd just spoken to Reeva when he heard the "intruder" so he knew she was awake. In order for him to do what he did....creep down a dark corridor clutching his gun....he would have to be in genuine and real fear for his life, so this is one of the scariest moments he has ever faced. His heart would have been pounding, his mouth dry, his hands shaking - and yet he says absolutely nothing to his wide awake girlfriend. No whispered contact to reassure himself he wasn't alone - no instruction to her to hide herself, no shushing to make sure she doesn't give the game away by saying loudly, "Oi, where are you going with that gun, Oscar?". He's not worried that she'll follow him. Nope. None of that. Defies all logic.

2) He screams at her twice to call the police - before and after the shooting. So he considers them the appropriate people to call at times of crisis. So does he call them when he realises the extent of the crisis? No. He calls the estate manager. This indicates that his panic is chiefly about the trouble he's in rather than help for Reeva. If this had been a total accident, I think he still would have worried about that, but it would have come second and he'd have been mostly concerned about getting help for her. I think this reveals his guilt more than anything else.

3) Why does not seeing Reeva in bed immediately lead to the conclusion that it was her he shot? He'd just blasted out the toilet door - did he expect her to be meekly sitting in bed? She'd have hidden or tried to run away, but Oscar doesn't check this out he just sees she's not in bed and it "dawns" on him. She WOULDN'T have been sitting in bed through all that - so why did he think she would be?

4) Fight or flight is a biological, instinctive reaction to danger - there's little thought involved and no one chooses which one to go with. It's a split second thing where your compelled into the action that is most likely to save your life. Flight is always the first instinct - people in true danger run if they possibly can, without stopping to consider the matter. Oscar's escape was a few feet to his left via the bedroom door. He and Reeva could have been through it in moments. OK, the door was locked but unless the key was inaccessible (and why would it be?) it would have been an extra moment to unlock it.

Oscar CHOSE to go into the bathroom. Only cornered people or angry people do this. Oscar was not cornered...so he chose his course of action. Panic did not propel him down that corridor, anger did.

Sorry - for a first post this is going on a bit. Nearly there.......!

Lastly - the bat sounds. Hmmmmm. I think this is a big, big red herring because I am not convinced that Dr Stipp was close enough to hear a bat smack a door. This is the kind of sound that only people in the same house or possibly very near neighbours might hear, but I don't think anyone at a distance would - and if they did, it would be very faint.

Gun shots are loud because of the amount of energy they produce, which is also what makes them so deadly. OP wielding a cricket bat could not produce even a fraction of the energy a gun could, so the sounds would not be anything like equal in sound. I've seen that YT video, btw, and I would really like to know what a physicist thinks about that. But I, personally, don't buy it.

So, I'm wondering if all the bangs that people heard were actually gunshots and, while the door bashing took place, no one heard that.

Pure supposition on my part, but maybe there were more shots than just the four through the door. Maybe OP was standing by the open bathroom window, arguing with Reeva through the door. Maybe he tells her to come out or he'll shoot the lock off (after a few bashes with the bat), and shoots a couple through the window to show he's serious. Her screams intensify, but she doesn't come out. So he tells her to get away from the door because he's going to shoot off the lock, and does. But she hadn't moved so got hit.

I don't think he planned to kill her, but I am certain he knew she was behind the door. His version makes absolutely no sense,and as Judge Judy often says, if something doesn't make sense, it's usually not true!

Sorry.....I shall shut up now. Thanks for reading my rambles (if you have!)

Excellent points, LemonMousse!

:wagon::goodpost:

 

[zwiebel]

Just out of nowhere as I know we are not on that subject anymore; I've seen the bruise from someone shot (accidentally) with an air rifle. I would have thought it entirely possible with a very recently deceased person, for a pathologist to differentiate between a small concentrated bruise cause by a pellet hitting Reeva's skin from the outside, and a bruise caused by internal bleeding from a highly explosive bullet shattering her hip?

 

[zwiebel]

Does anyone know when Oscar was first physically searched by police?