Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[wb180]

Yes I would trust what I hear with my own ears if it's not something that has to be measured precisely. It's really no different than asking the Stipps and Merwe about the subsequent voices they heard when the sound tests were conducted.

Ok got it, so you will hire non sound experts for your case to testify on sound. A sound expert is really no different than just grabbing your next door neighbour to do it.

Please hire me for ur next case as an expert!!! It need the extra money

 

[katydid23]

Yes I would trust what I hear with my own ears if it's not something that has to be measured precisely. It's really no different than asking the Stipps and Merwe about the subsequent voices they heard when the sound tests were conducted.

But they shot once, then recorded the shot on tape and played it over and over. Is that a credible way to do the sound test? Doesn't it bring in worries about sound tampering by a computer engineer?

And HOW did they recreate the cricket bat experience? OP said he did not use it like a true cricket bat. He forced the door open with it ,like a wedge. So how did they use it when they recorded it? And it was in an open field. Surely the sound is different coming from an inner hallway than coming from an open field?

I have to say, IF Nel had used such a bogus 'expert' in his presentation, I think you would have been all over him. LOL

 

[Mr Fossil]

I've seen the projected trajectory of the 4 bullets through the toilet door shown by the rods ... is there anything showing the potential line of origin (e.g. gun location) for each of these shots? TIA

 

[minor4th]

Question.



If Reeva was shot in the hip (as the State has contended) first and she fell down would her back bend over at the waist? If she was bent over at the waist when the second shot that missed her came into the toilet room and hit the wall behind her, could the fragments of the tile that was shot come back onto her back causing the marks on her back? This would appear to be moving from bottom up to the top, yes?

I would definitely say that's possible- but I'm no geologist

 

[DebinGA]

I think by "crouch" OP was describing this firing position - legs bent, upper body forward, gun held between shoulder and waist:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...frp_12_80_p119.png/220px-Fmfrp_12_80_p119.png

Nel immediately pounced on the word "crouched" - so that version probably disappeared fast. That's the way I see OP though - on his legs, ready to fire, and the bathroom light burning brightly.

 

[wb180]

But they shot once, then recorded the shot on tape and played it over and over. Is that a credible way to do the sound test? Doesn't it bring in worries about sound tampering by a computer engineer?

And HOW did they recreate the cricket bat experience? OP said he did not use it like a true cricket bat. He forced the door open with it ,like a wedge. So how did they use it when they recorded it? And it was in an open field. Surely the sound is different coming from an inner hallway than coming from an open field?

I have to say, IF Nel had used such a bogus 'expert' in his presentation, I think you would have been all over him. LOL

Agree with your last paragraph. The irony

Nel experts have already been attacked (whether legitimate attacks or not) but irony is there were at least experts.

 

[minor4th]

But they shot once, then recorded the shot on tape and played it over and over. Is that a credible way to do the sound test? Doesn't it bring in worries about sound tampering by a computer engineer?



And HOW did they recreate the cricket bat experience? OP said he did not use it like a true cricket bat. He forced the door open with it ,like a wedge. So how did they use it when they recorded it? And it was in an open field. Surely the sound is different coming from an inner hallway than coming from an open field?



I have to say, IF Nel had used such a bogus 'expert' in his presentation, I think you would have been all over him. LOL

I edited my post with a clarification:

"Edit: to clarify, I would object to such a sound test if it went against my client. But if I were the judge it would be meaningful as a demonstration of how loud a cricket bat hitting a door can be and how it compares to the sound of a gunshot"

 

[TorisMom003]

Really love how Mr. Dixon throws in that he is not a ballistic expert while he is testifying to ballistics.

So really, what was the point of bringing Mr. Dixon into court, onto the stand, to testify?

 

[Hatfield]

I just picture Reeva standing in front of the door and leaning against the door with her arms, and palms of her hand on the door, and pleading with Oscar (to calm down).

I picture Oscar saying "get the *advertiser censored** out." He wanted to her to open the door. I think he wanted to take the cell phones away from her, either to check something on it or to make sure she didn't try to call police or call/text anyone.

She wouldn't open the door, out of fear of him and the state of mind he was in.

Oscar can't contain himself. He either goes and gets the gun, or he has the gun already with him (used as a threatening tool beforehand).

He shoots her in the hip, she puts her arms down instinctively, turns to the side to shield herself, and the rest goes from there.

JMO.

This is close to what I think happened. But in my theory, he is screaming at her in an uncontrollable rage and kicking and banging on the door. I think he may have even used the bat once or twice but decided to get the gun. He came back and took 1 look through the keyhole and saw where she was and then blasted in her direction 4 rapid shots.

I dont think she had a clue how violent he was about to get.

I also think that maybe that valentines day card was a clue to him that she wanted him to either say he loved her or not. I think the whole argument may have been her trying to see if he really loved her or not. He probably never told her he loved her and she was probably wanting a Yes or No. She may have said if you dont love me, I am going to have to end our relationship. Something along those lines.

 

[BritsKate]

Yes I would trust what I hear with my own ears if it's not something that has to be measured precisely. It's really no different than asking the Stipps and Merwe about the subsequent voices they heard when the sound tests were conducted.

Edit: to clarify, I would object to such a sound test if it went against my client. But if I were the judge it would be meaningful as a demonstration of how loud a cricket bat hitting a door can be and how it compares to the sound of a gunshot

In that case...why bother with an expert though? I'm sure her chambers has wi-fi.

(Not directed towards you, minor, but rather the absurdity of this 'expert'.)

 

[weeeva]

I had to stop watching this guy, it is just too embarrassing. What was Roux thinking? He would have been better not having anyone testifying for this part of the evidence, than have this man making a complete fool of himself. Lets hope that further witnesses are more credible than this one.

 

[james83]

A mocking tone being heard 177 metres away is very hard to believe.

It's far far easier to believe than op's story I know that much.

 

[Hatfield]

In that case...why bother with an expert though? I'm sure her chambers has wi-fi.

I love this judge in this case. I cant read her too well but I am thinking that she is taking all this like us and thinks he is full of crap. I am thinking that she does not believe much of what he says. When he was throwing up that one time, she basically ended court for a time out and I dont think she was buying all his dramatics.

 

[Giles]

Okay. Discount Burger altogether.

Explain the 17 minute gap between the defence's gunshots and breaking the door down.

And see, that's where I'm at. If I totally discount one witness, or even a bit of evidence we've argued over, I still can't get what the defence is presenting to make sense. I've really tried.

I have to believe Oscar, discount the entire State's case, disregard my own logic, and ignore that there is a huge time gap in the defence's version in which a woman, mistaken for an intruder, was lying in a pool of her own blood while no one did anything to help her or accept that Oscar was screaming like a woman for at least 12 minutes before firing his gun.

Yes, the 17 minute gap is difficult to explain. Oscar admitted on the stand that he put his legs on quickly - in under 30 seconds. He's only explained a few minutes of activity between his account of when he fired the shots and when he used the cricket bat to knock the door down.

 

[sorrell skye]

It's my belief that Oscar has, since childhood, gone into these frightening rages, which, IMO, were anticipated by his family by the jaw clenching, head in hands, face turning exceedingly red...

They learned to soothe him by this head in lap, hair stroking, coddling/petting routine.

His aunt is doing it now after it was clear he was agitated today. Did I read that his psychiatrist pets him when he's 'upset' as well? (minus head-in-lap, I'm hoping.)

It's a pattern. When he's upset, he's stroked and petted in order to 'calm him down'. This can't be a coincidence that this grown man, much to most of our horror, gets petted as most of us have not petted out children since they were very young.

Quiet the coincidence that the seemingly loving thing Oscar described on the night of the 13th--Oscar with his head in Reeva's lap, Reeva stroking his hair--is the same thing odd thing everyone else seems to be trained to do to keep Oscar from exploding into full blown upset/rage.

BBM

Very astute observation, Magdalyn! I wholeheartedly agree.

Based on text messages, OP was clearly upset about something that evening. During direct examination, he testified about a financial meeting.

Reeva had tried to console him via text, also asking/urging him to spend the evening with his family. This tells me it was something very important if she felt he needed the support of his family.

Reeva was on her way home, but something OP said to her compelled her to turn around and return to OP's house, even though she hadn't planned on staying the evening, let alone the night. Reeva had her own plans for the following day - she was scheduled to give her DV speech, thus staying in Pretoria was not convenient to that appointment. Yet, she put OP's needs first and made herself available to him.

Remember during testimony, OP repeatedly referred to the time of "the incident" as the "evening", when it was actually the early morning hours. I agree with others' speculation that the "incident' which culminated in OP shooting & killing Reeva actually began earlier that night.

Now add OP's head in lap (actually head on handbag, but close enough) behavior in court, being stroked & soothed in order to calm him down, together with his own testimony about his head being in Reeva's lap/on her stomach that night - it could definitely be interpreted that she was trying to calm/soothe him.

I wonder what the "hurdle" was that OP & Reeva discussed? If it was finance related, I wonder if it had to do with the lawsuit we've read about, or ST's tell-all that was later dropped, or if it was related to a potentially lucrative sponsorship deal that fell through?

At any rate, it's a fact that OP has always been very concerned with his public image and how any negative press would affect his contracts (income).

IMO, OP was inconsolable that night (due to whatever news he'd received earlier), despite Reeva's best efforts. She made him tea, she cooked him dinner, she likely stroked and soothed him while his head was resting on her stomach. I think she was being very motherly to him that night - even called him to come to the bathroom to brush his teeth.

But his stress would not be pacified. I think he grew more upset as the night wore on, because I think whatever happened in that earlier financial meeting that Reeva referred to as a "hurdle" was eating away at him and causing him intense anxiety.

It's possible that the more Reeva tried to encourage and comfort him, the more agitated he became - especially since her career was taking off and filled with promise and he was facing some sort of "hurdle".

I have no doubt that at some point late that night/early morning OP exploded in a rage, as his frustration and anger intensified, despite Reeva's efforts to calm him.

As he has done in the witness box (blaming anyone & everyone for his actions), I think he began to berate & blame Reeva (unjustifiably) for something she may have said or done. An argument ensued; the argument escalated, and Reeva fled to the toilet in terror to try to escape his rage.

This is my theory about what happened that night.

I'll post it in the theory thread, but I also wanted to post it here, in response to Magdalyn's post above.

 

[TorisMom003]

I think by "crouch" OP was describing this firing position - legs bent, upper body forward, gun held between shoulder and waist:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...frp_12_80_p119.png/220px-Fmfrp_12_80_p119.png

Nel immediately pounced on the word "crouched" - so that version probably disappeared fast. That's the way I see OP though - on his legs, ready to fire, and the bathroom light burning brightly.

In that watermelon video OP can be seen in his firing stance. His legs are spread apart, knees bent. I couldn't tell if he used the gun in that video but since it was a handgun I would imagine that his firing stance when shooting Reeva would be the same.

MOO

 

[TipDog]

I recollect OP saying that once, briefly. I believe Nel may have missed it, because he spoke about OP crouching later, but never brought up the kneeling comment.

Thank you. I would hate to go back and listen to all that all over again. But I think Nel missed an important "slip of tongue." (I'm sure there will be some on here to laugh at my making that assumption, but IMO, when testifying, semantics matter more than when someone is just having a conversation.)

Of course, logically, I cannot create a scenario in my head where OP would need to kneel in order to shoot through the door, especially if he's threatened RS, she's screaming and he shoots her in rage. It would make more sense that he'd be standing.

So, never mind...

 

[BritsKate]

Yes, the 17 minute gap is difficult to explain. Oscar admitted on the stand that he put his legs on quickly - in under 30 seconds. He's only explained a few minutes of activity between his account of when he fired the shots and when he used the cricket bat to knock the door down.

And if we assume Oscar's 3:12 shooting time is accurate to get past the time problem, disregard the first bangs though the defence has stated those were the gunshots or accept the witnesses who heard the bangs were wrong on the time, we still have to conclude Oscar was screaming like a woman for 12 minutes before firing his gun. If he was screaming at an intruder he had a full 12 minutes to not think and not intend to shoot.

It's quite honestly headache producing trying to get the defence's version to work.

 

[steveml]

Okay. Discount Burger altogether.

Explain the 17 minute gap between the defence's gunshots and breaking the door down.

And see, that's where I'm at. If I totally discount one witness, or even a bit of evidence we've argued over, I still can't get what the defence is presenting to make sense. I've really tried.

I have to believe Oscar, discount the entire State's case, disregard my own logic, and ignore that there is a huge time gap in the defence's version in which a woman, mistaken for an intruder, was lying in a pool of her own blood while no one did anything to help her or accept that Oscar was screaming like a woman for at least 12 minutes before firing his gun.

The honest answer is I'm not able to. There too many time unknowns or time speculations to piece together everything.

I want to know how long the screams were and how long the sequence of noises were, nothing specific, just a guesstimate in minutes or seconds would be helpful. None of the 5 witnesses have provided anything at all on this, which is a shame as it's causing huge problems in establishing a credible timeline.

 

[steveml]

It's far far easier to believe than op's story I know that much.

You haven't heard my falsetto voice then.


...nope...honestly, you don't want to.