Trial Discussion Thread #31

[zwiebel]

Try these links ...

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.co...de-of-bed-holster-seen-to-the-right-of-it.png
http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.co...-in-between-lamp-on-left-and-bed-on-right.png

Thanks. Idiotproof links!

I'd been looking at 00.56 in the video, instead of 56.00, Lol.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Found it! (I had made exactly the mistake I thought I might have).

It is hard to be certain, but it does look like there is a white cup standing on top of the magazines, if you look carefully.

http://new.livestream.com/wildabouttrial/events/2811169/videos/45408727

Incidentally - I though Reeva's 'warm drink' question a little odd. I would have expected something more specific: 'You want a cup of hot chocolate? Herbal tea?'

As it is of course, there is no way police could have checked the contents of the cups to verify events (for example, if Reeva never drank hot chocolate, but there was a cup with residue of chocolate on the left side of the bed....). A 'warm drink' is just too generic.

But they could have checked DNA or lip prints (or lipstick!) around the rim

 

[Gbtaketwo]

That's why it bugged me so badly - I hate reading something and then not being able to find the 'back up'.

I hadn't given the mug a 2nd thought until Prof Simpson commented on it.

I am relieved to have seen the mug. One less thing to worry about.

Leaving me with only 1568 remaining 'issues' to be crossed off before I can even contemplate Oscar's version being anything other than a lie.

I think that the quantity of implausible/ out of the ordinary things in his testimony to my mind are what makes his version unbelievable .
If it were only a couple of things then you could reasonably set them aside .
Of course we do have a lot of defence testimony to come so I try very hard to keep an open mind but I do think the defence have a rather large mountain to overcome and would be quite surprised if they manage it

 

[Inobu]

Have not been on here for a year or so but I thought I might chime in here.

I have always thought that OP version was fabricated and the testimony of his ex-girl friend supports the argument.

I will preface the point.

A lie is based on truths and are usually sewn into a scenario. Although it sounds good it normally leaves seams that unravel quickly.

OP ex testified that she was in the same scenario (suspected intruder). The only difference was OP woke her up and asked her the question. He never confirmed Reeva location as he did with his ex. Same scenario different actions.

 

[BritsKate]

I'd like to know what others believe is the most compelling evidence against Oscar? And has the defence/State made you rethink your position at all, even for a moment? If the defence/State could put forth any evidence at all, what might sway your mind? And lastly, what's the one piece of evidence not explained you want an answer to?
______________________
The State had me at the screams. Now, I have a huge issue with the forensic testimony. I have had a few moments of hesitation in cross with a couple of the crime scene guys - Vermeulen was one. I think the defence could only make me reconsider by providing a logical account for those screams (instead of a man screaming like a woman while yelling like a man while crying and not screaming at all) and why the defence timeline doesn't appear to match the blood spatter and pathology findings. I want something that makes sense to sink my teeth into. And the one item of evidence I want the real story of is the blood in the bedroom.

(Sorry for the length. I look forward to all your thoughts.)

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

But they could have checked DNA (or lipstick!) around the rim

Yes I agree they probably have . In any event as long as there are mugs I suppose the side of the bed they are on might still not mean anything definitively because i suppose they could have swapped sides before going to sleep ( if they did which I guess hasn't been proven one way or another )

 

[Mr Fossil]

Yes I agree they probably have . In any event as long as there are mugs I suppose the side of the bed they are on might still not mean anything definitively because i suppose they could have swapped sides before going to sleep ( if they did which I guess hasn't been proven one way or another )

Except OP hasn't said they swapped sides before going to sleep (but I guess he probably would if faced with evidence that the cups were proven to be the wrong way round!)

 

[zwiebel]

It may be quite obscure, but OP said he knelt by Reeva's body for long moments, then picked her up....but the bloodstains on his legs don't really tell that story to me.

You can see it here I think, where there are clear, downwards blood drips from where Reeva was carried, but there don't seem to be any smudges or smears that I would expect, from someone kneeling in a bloody bathroom. It bothers me, because that 'kneeling beside Reeva' is the only explanation offered for those vital minutes before help was summoned.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ing-at-unseen-target-was-illegal-9196507.html

 

[sleuth-d-]

There were three events on the door:

Bat hits. Shots. OP breaking out panels with his hands.

The crack through the bullet hole is the one thing we know.

OP testified that the first bat hit only put a small hole in the door through which he could see Reeva. He also testified that he subsequently pulled the panels out into the room so as not to hit Reeva.

this.
absolutely.
fits everything.
loving how succinctly you put this across.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I was astonished when I saw that photo earlier this morning as all the other ones I had seen so far had all the panels removed (they must've been taken later, in that case). How the heck did OP get the toilet key off the floor like he said he did then? I've always thought there was something fishy about those keys, and him picking them up off the floor from the inside anyway, so that photo just confirms to me that he was lying about the keys (along with so many other things). I've always wondered if he had locked her in there from the outside (instead of the other way around, i.e. her locking herself in) and that the keys were on the outside all along.

I wish there was somewhere where we could look at the photo's in the order which they were taken and numbered because it does get very confusing when you see pictures like this .was this taken when they were trying to piece the door back together ?
Others I have seen have shown several pieces torn out .

 

[Mr Fossil]

I wish there was somewhere where we could look at the photo's in the order which they were taken and numbered because it does get very confusing when you see pictures like this .was this taken when they were trying to piece the door back together ?
Others I have seen have shown several pieces torn out .

I think this is a later pic. From earlier pics, I notice various items missing in the toilet (e.g. magazine rack, piece of wood panel) that would suggest this is a later pic (hence the labelling on the door). Looks like the door was in the process of being reconstructed at this stage, so not significant.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I do believe Oscar called her more than once during her 'meeting' with Warren?

To me the motive comprises of not one single event (like most seem to be hoping and looking for) but rather a series of events that snowballed and finally triggered.

I firmly believe that Oscar was a 'man on the edge' prior to, during and most CERTAINLY after the Olympic adoration.

1. The 'high' of the Olympics was history - along with the fame, additional sponsors and perks that came with it (Time magazine covers etc)

2. Sam Taylor and he - turbulent at best.

3. Oscar aggressive in public - challenging (vd Burgh, Batchelor)

4. The firearm incidents

5. Increased media interest in his 'darker' side (after the Olympics tantrum)

Snowballing.

I also believe the unpleasant financial meeting on the morning of the 13th would have seen OP in a foul mood in any event. In fact, the one message from Reeva in which she mentioned the 'hurdle' and his 'perhaps wanting to see his family that evening' IMHO showed the importance of this. In her 2nd message on the subject she suggested OP 'stay at Ryan's until he was 'finished'.
I interpreted this to mean, (from Reeva's perspective)
"He will be in a foul mood and relatively depressed, that is NO GOOD from what I have come to know. He won't be pleasant this evening and I am nervous of him coming home. I hope he stays at Ryan or goes to his family so that they can 'calm' him before he gets here. I'm not going to risk going back to Jhb because that will lead to a whole new chapter of drama. All I can do is HOPE he does go to his family, or stays at Ryan until he is happier/less moody-depressed. I'm relying on them to calm him and change his mood, because I won't be able to do this."

Just my opinion of course.

add to this
injured shoulder. not training. dentist.

and on the other side of the coin - reeva's big tv show, and her career in the ascendancy.

the narcissist was under real pressure.

i would say all these factors were 'bubbling under the surface' and a relatively innocuous, and totally unconnected event would have started the argument that then brought them all out at once. jealousy; envy; rage.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

One of the watches was stolen by police already according to van Rensburg. Aimee asked if she could take one, the police said OK. Maybe it was a present from her to OP, sentimental value; maybe she was afraid that one would go "missing" too. Who knows? The police stealing a watch is a big deal. Aimee asking for one and being granted permission is not.

I am sorry but if my brother had just shot his girlfriend dead in any scenario the last thing I would be worried about is his stupid watch. This kind of goes to the mind set of the family I guess?

 

[james83]

I'd like to know what others believe is the most compelling evidence against Oscar? And has the defence/State made you rethink your position at all, even for a moment? If the defence/State could put forth any evidence at all, what might sway your mind? And lastly, what's the one piece of evidence not explained you want an answer to?
______________________
The State had me at the screams. Now, I have a huge issue with the forensic testimony. I have had a few moments of hesitation in cross with a couple of the crime scene guys - Vermeulen was one. I think the defence could only make me reconsider by providing a logical account for those screams (instead of a man screaming like a woman while yelling like a man while crying and not screaming at all) and why the defence timeline doesn't appear to match the blood spatter and pathology findings. I want something that makes sense to sink my teeth into. And the one item of evidence I want the real story of is the blood in the bedroom.

(Sorry for the length. I look forward to all your thoughts.)

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

I use a principal known as Oscar's razor, you take everything Oscar say's and believe the opposite, 100% success rate.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

This is also interesting -- during Van Staden's cross examination on March 18, the photo below is shown and it is one of Col Motha's photos, but it also shows a left hand pointing. It could not have been Col Motha's hand pointing because the camera grip is on the left side of the camera. Even Van Staden is unable to explain it.

This picture was taken at 6:03 a.m. So that suggests that Van Staden was not alone phtographing an untouched crime scene very early in the process.

Video Link

Maybe it's Motha's hand?

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

I'd like to know what others believe is the most compelling evidence against Oscar? And has the defence/State made you rethink your position at all, even for a moment? If the defence/State could put forth any evidence at all, what might sway your mind? And lastly, what's the one piece of evidence not explained you want an answer to?
______________________
The State had me at the screams. Now, I have a huge issue with the forensic testimony. I have had a few moments of hesitation in cross with a couple of the crime scene guys - Vermeulen was one. I think the defence could only make me reconsider by providing a logical account for those screams (instead of a man screaming like a woman while yelling like a man while crying and not screaming at all) and why the defence timeline doesn't appear to match the blood spatter and pathology findings. I want something that makes sense to sink my teeth into. And the one item of evidence I want the real story of is the blood in the bedroom.

(Sorry for the length. I look forward to all your thoughts.)

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

1. The minute the details emerged on the 14th Feb, re: closed door, 4 shots etc - I was sold. (I will admit my prejudice towards the accused in this matter, as I was in no way surprised when it was his name mentioned as being the 'accused') The witnesses (Burger, Johnson, Stipp and Stipp) sealed the deal - primarily because they are independent witnesses, professionals with nothing to gain - but MUCH to lose by testifying (privacy, the attacks from the hysterical Pro Oscar Pistorians etc). The fact that there WERE slight differences in their testimonies was soothing, as this makes it less than likely that there was collusion.(Contrary to what Barry would allege).

2. The DT would have to pull out video footage from the 13/14 Feb 2013, in real time (and verified as TRUE footage by 1000000000000 experts from around the globe), from a hidden security camera - clearly showing us the entire incident from start to finish. This might sway me somewhat :scared:
However, Oscar would still be guilty of the FCA related charges.


3. Vermeulen was the least effective of the state witnesses. However, I do believe much of his testimony was both 'lost and mixed up' in translation. Wollie Wolmarans (for the DT); ballistician, is going to come across much the same I predict. Without a translator, his evidence will be gibberish. WITH a translator, still gibberish. Pity M'lady speaks no Afrikaans at all. Vermeulen suffered (with a few others) and Wolmarans and the DT are next.


4. Evidence I want explained for my own peace of mind: Damage to the bedroom door and Oscar's prosthetic legs. The jeans outside the bathroom window. Oscar's actions after the fact, including the presence of black plastic bags and ropes. The 5th phone as per Shane13.
Why Oscar's torso had no blood on it. Hylton Both kept insisting he had a shirt on, now it's all 'bare naked with not a smudge of blood'.
Bugs me. Did he wash his torso with permission? Or was he wearing a bloody shirt as per Botha.

 

[shane13]

Are you referring to the start of the second day of Moller's evidence? If so, whilst this is not available on YouTube, it is available elsewhere (e.g. http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-archive/) and I can see nothing untoward in the 'missing' two minutes from when the judge enters. Perhaps I have misunderstood you?

This one is even more insidious!
It indicates that my postings on this matter were read.

And I have made myself clear. .
I have said that Nel 'stipulating about the DT having the 5th phone for 16 days has been excised from all vidoes.

I said that youtubes of that day start with the witness testifying and not the judge walking in.
All that the video you posted has--more insidiously-- shows the judge walking in [which I am not interested in obviously per se] and skips Nel's stipulation about the 16 days making it look like he didn't do that!

So it's not there in what you posted. Period.

Since it's been excised from all videos.
Is there a way to get a transcript showing this?
And not that Sky one, I already checked it's not there.

I ask that people not to post a set of videos [or a single one] and claim something is there. if you actually have a single video of Nel talking on the 16 days missing of the 5th phone only, please post.

But this one should be compared to the youtube session 1. All this site has that is different is the judge walking in prob. from reading my posts here!!

 

[jay-jay]

That is a great question and one that I have not been able to answer for myself. Some of the first pics seem to show one panel missing and others show several panels missing. Would love for someone to clarify this if it's known

Yes, me too .. I'm still catching up atm, with another 8 or 9 pages to go still, so excuse me if someone already has done this!

 

[shane13]

Shane Thank you, I did see your post about the hernia, I just forgot it was from you earlier this evening.



Very compelling points, that phone was removed and tampered with in a sophisticated manner, imo.

No not that one.
I did 2 posts to you.
One was about the PC6 point for your mom.

and the other was about if you saw my earlier post on angular momentum and inertial braking to get blood to come off Reeva or her clothing.

 

[jay-jay]

Hmm I thought that was cleared up weeks ago, those are the ones that iirc would have been taken on the 15th when they were trying to reassemble the door.

OK, have just found Val's post now re. the door panel/s ^^^ .. thanks, Val!