Trial Discussion Thread #37 - 14.05.12 Day 30

[BritsKate]

Wasn't she great?, i especially loved the part where she confirmed Oscar had committed Dolus Eventualis, thanks Doc.

Indeed. So what we really learned is he's been diagnosed with GAD - an overdiagnosed condition that affects millions who lead normal lives without killing anyone; he knew the consequences of his actions; his disorder doesn't rise to the level of mental illness; his responces may be 'different' which opened the door to assessment and he is potentially dangerous.

It's all good (if you're Gerrie Nel). From a legal standpoint, this is so very bad for Oscar for so many reasons.


Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[Ncl1968]

Why was his mental state never mentioned in bail hearing or up until now the 11th hour...
Desperate measures that could backfire imo

 

[TorisMom003]

@2:28:04

Vorster: "When exposed to a threat, Mr. Pistorius is more likely to respond with a fight response rather than a flight response as his physical capacity for flight is limited."

Now, if OP's physical capacity is such that flight is pretty much out of the question, then how in the world can he overcome that physical impairment to fight someone? Unless of course it is not a fair fight and OP has a gun. But even then, with that gun and the kick back that gun has, firing it while on his stumps while he has "limited mobility" and is "easily knocked off balance" is a better option than taking the 2 seconds it takes to put on his prosthetic legs and run for it?

MOO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GYBnyelinBI

 

[Karmady]

Well I have taken the time to listen to quite a bit of Dr. Voster’s testimony and I am impressed with Nel’s verbal theatrics if nothing else. And doubly impressed with Dr. Voster.

All of Dr. Voster testimony has nothing to do with Oscars ability to distinguish right from wrong, the good doctor has repeatedly said that Osacr was capable of appreciating the wrongness of murdering Reeva in cold blood the docotor is simply saying that Oscar had diminished capacity as to properly interpreting and acting on the noise he heard in the bathroom due to his physical disability and his psychiatric condition which she has diagnosed as Generalized Anxiety disorder.

She did at one time get confuzzled by Nel’s continuously telling her that she must be wrong and she gave one sloppy answer about “right and wrong.”

The judge is good to take a doctor of psychiatry’s opinion as to the difference between a mental illness and a psychiatric disorder rather than Nel’s interpretation of the DSM V and the judge has said as much. The doctor said many times that the psychiatric factor she is positing along with Oscars’ disability specifically denied that Oscar had the incapacity to act in accordance with knowing right from wrong.


A psychiatric disorder diagnosis can explain why a person’s ability to act may be different than a person without a particular diagnosis and in Oscars case disability may have diminished culpability, which is simply what I have been saying all along.

I also thing her testimony as to Oscar's ability to take flight is much diminished compared to an able bodied persons ability to take flight.

This is what I have been saying all along in a nut shell. Though I never correctly labeled Oscar with GDA I just referred to him as emotionally unstable.

I can’t imagine that Oscar will be sectioned and from her responses I can’t imagine the judge believes so either.

Now I have a noon appointment so good day to all.

Do you have a link. This sounds about right to me, but I'd like to listen myself rather than just base it on the posts. This whole working for a living thing is highly overrated :seeya:

 

[TorisMom003]

Karmady the link for the youtube of today's 1st session is above in my post. I'll get you the youtube for the 2nd session for today also.

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 12 May 2014, Session 2 - YouTube

 

[Interested Bystander]

In listening to Vorster talking about OP being asked to remove his prosthetics and that he became embaressed, I suppose that when it isn't for a camera crew that is interviewing him for an article about his track skills then he becomes embaressed about removing his prosthetics? I also have to question if OP was simply faking the "limited mobility" that he displayed to her while on his stumps. Would she really know the difference between faking his ease of getting around while on his stumps and being genuine about it? After all, he managed to shoot 4 bullets into the toilet, with three of them hitting Reeva, while he was supposedly on his stumps.

MOO

IIRC he also RAN back to the bedroom to don his prostheses.

 

[jay-jay]

In listening to Vorster talking about OP being asked to remove his prosthetics and that he became embaressed, I suppose that when it isn't for a camera crew that is interviewing him for an article about his track skills then he becomes embaressed about removing his prosthetics? I also have to question if OP was simply faking the "limited mobility" that he displayed to her while on his stumps. Would she really know the difference between faking his ease of getting around while on his stumps and being genuine about it? After all, he managed to shoot 4 bullets into the toilet, with three of them hitting Reeva, while he was supposedly on his stumps.

MOO

Yes, I've seen a number of various videos and articles showing him putting on his track prosthetics/ordinary prosthetics and there didn't appear to be any embarrassment going on whatsoever. He has said himself that to him, it's no different to putting on a pair of shoes.

I also don't believe his mobility is anywhere as limited as he is making out, either .. not when he has lived his whole life with partial lower legs, he doesn't actually know anything else .. obviously he needs the prosthesis for general day to day living, like walking about in public or driving because obviously that makes life easier, but that doesn't mean he isn't able to get around reasonably well on his stumps as well .. we'll never know the truth about that now though as he could basically say any old thing and it can't be disputed.

Just a quick thought on the 'flight or flight' thing, and him saying (backed up by Dr V today) that, because of his 'disability', he tends to go towards danger as opposed to fleeing away from it .. if he was in such a state of terror that night, that the sheer amount of adrenalin that rushes through someone when they are as terrified as OP proports he was at the time, that people gain extra strength and are able to do things which they would not normally be able to do. You know like when you hear about people leaping over a tall gate if a they are being chased through a field by a bull or sommat .. if OP really was as terrified that night as he states, because he thought he heard an intruder, then he would've had no problem getting to the bedroom door, down the stairs and out of the house with Reeva .. the adrenalin would've taken care of any limited mobility, imo. It's all just a cover story anyway ..

 

[DebinGA]

Great article from S.A journalist Barry Bateman

http://ewn.co.za/2014/05/12/OPINION-Pistoriuss-experts-what-have-they-been-doing

Definitely a must read. Thanks, james83.

 

[BritsKate]

One thing I have to wonder, considering the limited and recent interviews, is whether she really even had the opportunity to consider malingering.

I really can't wait for the State's psych expert.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[james83]

One thing I have to wonder, considering the limited and recent interviews, is whether she really even had the opportunity to consider malingering.

I really can't wait for the State's psych witness.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

Surely she is intelligent enough to think "well this is odd that we are doing this 2 month's into the trial", the whole thing stinks of desperation, it's an utter joke.

 

[TorisMom003]

When Vorster was debating with Nel about the level of OP's GAD, and if it was severe or not, it was said that unless OP had delusions of people out to get him (paraphrasing) then she would not consider it (his GAD) to be of such where he would need a referral. Wouldn't the fact that OP has claimed while one the stand that not only are the SA police out to get him (my moving things around before taking photos to "frame him", stealing his watch, etc), but also some witnesses that testified against him are out to get him and willing to lie on the stand as well, be enough to say that OP is having said delusions?

MOO

 

[james83]

Definitely a must read. Thanks, james83.

This is another article that i highly recommend.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-05-12-pistorius-trial-week-8-day-1#.U3EW6fldV24

 

[JimCricket]

Just to help the understanding...
It is most definitely 30 days, not 3.
If he does go for observation, there will be 3 state employed psychiatrists (1 neutral, 1 PT, 1DT) who will interview him over the 30 days in Te institution. They then compile a joint report which goes to court.

All of these interviews and reports are sent to the court, so he loses his right to silence at that point on matters that are covered in the interview. It is a very clever tactic from Nel to find a new source of information which could allow him to reopen his case and call Oscar back to the stand.

South African courts do not use the temp insanity option. Either you have a defect or you don't!

Keep this in mind... If the shrinks think he is mentally ill, he doesn't get to leave mental institution until he is healthy, which is often indefinitely.
I can assure everyone.... This is not where you would want to spend any time!

 

[DebinGA]

When Vorster was debating with Nel about the level of OP's GAD, and if it was severe or not, it was said that unless OP had delusions of people out to get him (paraphrasing) then she would not consider it (his GAD) to be of such where he would need a referral. Wouldn't the fact that OP has claimed while one the stand that not only are the SA police out to get him (my moving things around before taking photos to "frame him", stealing his watch, etc), but also some witnesses that testified against him are out to get him and willing to lie on the stand as well, be enough to say that OP is having said delusions?

MOO

That doesn't sound delusional to me. It sounds like the reaction of a self-absorbed narcissist that people have indulged and accommodated his entire life finally getting himself in a situation that can't be fixed and made to go away.

 

[james83]

If he's fit to pass notes forward every other minute than he's fit to face trial, sick of this man and his team's attempt's to avoid justice, you done the crime now shut the hell up and get ready to do the time.

 

[Carmelita]

I thought the Psychiatrist was clear and concise in her testimony. She was willing to concede and seemed self assured and knowledgeable of her field.

On a couple of occasions she mentioned that OP stated he feels guilty for what he's done. I wanted Nel to ask her why someone who feels guilty wouldn't plead guilty.

It was such an interesting day, watching the drama unfold. I'm really looking forward to tomorrow.

Because he is being asked (by the state) to plead guilty to premeditated murder not guilty to accidentally killing Reeva.

 

[nastasya]

Well I have taken the time to listen to quite a bit of Dr. Voster’s testimony and I am impressed with Nel’s verbal theatrics if nothing else. And doubly impressed with Dr. Voster.

All of Dr. Voster testimony has nothing to do with Oscars ability to distinguish right from wrong, the good doctor has repeatedly said that Osacr was capable of appreciating the wrongness of murdering Reeva in cold blood the docotor is simply saying that Oscar had diminished capacity as to properly interpreting and acting on the noise he heard in the bathroom due to his physical disability and his psychiatric condition which she has diagnosed as Generalized Anxiety disorder.

She did at one time get confuzzled by Nel’s continuously telling her that she must be wrong and she gave one sloppy answer about “right and wrong.”

The judge is good to take a doctor of psychiatry’s opinion as to the difference between a mental illness and a psychiatric disorder rather than Nel’s interpretation of the DSM V and the judge has said as much. The doctor said many times that the psychiatric factor she is positing along with Oscars’ disability specifically denied that Oscar had the incapacity to act in accordance with knowing right from wrong.


A psychiatric disorder diagnosis can explain why a person’s ability to act may be different than a person without a particular diagnosis and in Oscars case disability may have diminished culpability, which is simply what I have been saying all along.

I also thing her testimony as to Oscar's ability to take flight is much diminished compared to an able bodied persons ability to take flight.

This is what I have been saying all along in a nut shell. Though I never correctly labeled Oscar with GDA I just referred to him as emotionally unstable.

I can’t imagine that Oscar will be sectioned and from her responses I can’t imagine the judge believes so either.

Now I have a noon appointment so good day to all.

The killer's disability does not diminish his culpability, especially since the 9 mm Parabellum in his hand eliminated any actual vulnerability.

The fact is he intended to kill the person behind the toilet door. Case closed. :jail:

 

[DebinGA]

Re the psych evaluation, isn't the main thing not what OP's mental condition is now, but what it was the evening/week leading up to the fatal night? Of course, he's depressed now that he's lost his status, his brand, his livelihood, his former courtiers, and a good chunk of his money, etc., but what does that have to do with his killing Reeva in Feb./13? And the real prospect of a SA prison must fill him with anxiety/terror, but so what?

 

[james83]

Because he is being asked (by the state) to plead guilty to premeditated murder not guilty to accidentally killing Reeva.

If he was offered a plea deal that included a lesser charge and a reduced prison sentence you and i both know there is no chance that he would accept it.

 

[Carmelita]

From what I make of it if Nels argument stands the Judge doesn't have an option. The court "shall" is what Nel read from the book.

The "court shall" if a person is having a psychotic break, has the inability to distinguish right from wrong, that is when "the court shall" the witness made none of these claims about Oscar.


Roux is correct when he said the inability to act on right and wrong is not in question nor is the question of whether or not Oscar had a psychotic break when he killed Reeva. The witness, Dr. Voster has said it again and again. Nel’s would have better luck with a jury than judge Masipa with this particular shenanigan.




And just to be clear neither the witness Dr. Voster or Roux at any point indicated that Oscar is an immediate danger to himself or others in the present moment. He may be suicidal and Nel would do better to argue that point for a section rather than this nonsense of a long running psychotic break.


Good gravy, I realize it is a much more casual atmosphere than a US court but Nel argued for quite a bit to have the extraordinary latitude to re-examine Dr. Voster at his convenience, to which the judge seemed properly stunned.


Then finally he says “No more questions.”

Judge Masipa says, “Are you sure.”

To which Nel replies “My lady I’m not that sure about it.”

I also agree with whoever said that Nel seems absent minded, the judge said court will reconvene in an hour but because Nel asked for a break until 1:30 he went ahead and came back at 1:30.