Hannah Graham: Remains Identified

[WhitegateGirl]

Interesting read, Celtsleuth..

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/m....html?_r=5&src=me&ref=general&pagewanted=all&

Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath?
Then last spring, the psychologist treating Michael referred his parents to Dan Waschbusch, a researcher at Florida International University. Following a battery of evaluations, Anne and Miguel were presented with another possible diagnosis: their son Michael might be a psychopath.

For the past 10 years, Waschbusch has been studying “callous-unemotional” children — those who exhibit a distinctive lack of affect, remorse or empathy — and who are considered at risk of becoming psychopaths as adults.

Currently, there is no standard test for psychopathy in children, but a growing number of psychologists believe that psychopathy is a distinct neurological condition — one that can be identified in children as young as 5.

<sniped - read more>

Foxfire, I read that piece in the Times after someone here--maybe you?--recommended it recently, and I've gotta say, it was chilling and really, really fascinating.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Raise children with love, respect, and give them power. Let them make decisions.

Don't, yell, shame, or belittle your children. Do not be a drug abuser, alcohol abuser, or stay with a person that abuses you or your children.

Have schools treat children with respect and understanding.

Safety lessons and talks do not matter. It is the love injected into your child.

If you have issues of self esteem, Get help. You cannot give your child what you do not have yourself

Good advice for normal offspring. For psychopaths such as JLM, it won't work. They don't understand love.

 

[WhitegateGirl]

I have a different hope. I hope that JM's attorney will persuade him to plead guilty, saving untold heartache for all involved including his own family, not to mention the enormous expenses accruing to the state.

If there is anything like fairness in this world, Mr. C will advise his client not to drag his victim's families through the ordeal of a trial unless there is any snippet of exculpatory evidence. Of which I have heard of none.

You make a good point, IzzyBlanche, you really do.

 

[jamicat]

I'VE MADE A HUGE MISTAKE!

i got off my lazy rear and looked it up. It was Golda Meir of Israel not Indira Gandhi. Got my strong powerful female role models mixed up.

quote:


When Israel was experiencing an epidemic of violent rapes and someone at a cabinet meeting suggested women be put under curfew until the rapists were caught, Meir shot back, &#8220;Men are committing the rapes. Let them be put under curfew.&#8221;

http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/meir-golda

I remember that quote. And though I agree, the fact of the matter is that those men committing the rapes would observe any curfew. The fact of the matter is that this is an issue that young women should have in mind. What happened to Hannah is so stereotypical--getting lost, being confused, had a few drinks, takes a ride with a stranger. We learn from "Little Red RIding Hood" that there are such big bad wolves, and yet even someone as smart as a straight A student at a top university did not pay that any mind. Really anyone, men as well as women do a lot better observing the buddy system, though the numbers are tipped against the women. THough I so wish that what happened with Hannah, that all of this publicity would make people realize that there are such evil predators out there just waiting for a vulnerable victim, that this will continue because people take these kinds of chances.

 

[newshound6]

I have a different hope. I hope that JM's attorney will persuade him to plead guilty, saving untold heartache for all involved including his own family, not to mention the enormous expenses accruing to the state.

If there is anything like fairness in this world, Mr. C will advise his client not to drag his victim's families
through the ordeal of a trial unless there is any snippet of exculpatory evidence. Of which I have heard ofnone.

I agree-the expense of a death penalty trial is astronomical.I'm in Ohio and followed the ghastly murders and kidnapping case of Mathew Hoffman who escaped the DP(he confessed and told LE he had placed his victims in a hollow tree where they would NEVER would have been found) but the relevant point is that the Knox Co. D.A. (May have been a different official) said a death penalty case WILL DEFINITELY bankrupt our county(knox co. Oh.)

 

[jillycat]

I get what you're saying. I think everyone should be careful in general in life. We live in a world of predators. We also live in a world of sharp objects, germs, bombs, etc.

Bringing up a discussion on how women can protect themselves from predators in the wake of a girl being murdered by one puts some people on edge because it puts us on a slippery slope of laying responsibility of the crime on the person the crime was committed against, imo. The context loads it with implications because there's no shortage of people who really do think it's the victim's fault.

In my opinion there are ongoing conversations on how women can protect themselves but there aren't enough conversations on how we can raise boys (and increasingly girls) to be less violent and self-entitled. Unfortunately is easier to figure out how to use a pepper spray can than to figure out how to (collectively) raise fewer rapists and murderers. But if people have the desire and wherewithall to kill and inflict pain then they'll find a way no matter what the victims are doing so I think it's more important to focus on the perpetrators (and potential perpetrators) rather than the victims.

And it's because some people simply desire to kill that there is no focus on them that will quell that impulse.

I understand what you're saying, but I personally am disturbed by the direction much of the discourse about assaults on women is taking in our culture. There is a worldview being promoted on college campuses through events like 'Take Back the Night', where men march along side women with the message that only men can prevent assaults on women, and that is where the focus should be.

If only violent perpetrators would get this through their heads, right?

Is it reasonable that women leave their doors unlocked and their curtains open because we should be able to do so without fear of someone attacking us, and we need to talk to males more about their role in assault? No, we would not argue that.

Is it reasonable that children play in the street because it's the drivers who are responsible for not running them over, and we need to focus more on educating drivers? No, we would not argue that.

I don't blame Hannah for what a violent predator did to her. But neither do I think that violent predators care what you or I or anyone else thinks about violence.

Sociopaths and psychopaths are still lying in wait for the next victim no matter how many healthy men reject violence and march with women, and these predators are hunting the woman who's walking alone.

JMO

 

[Kale]

Interesting read, Celtsleuth..

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/m....html?_r=5&src=me&ref=general&pagewanted=all&

Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath?
Then last spring, the psychologist treating Michael referred his parents to Dan Waschbusch, a researcher at Florida International University. Following a battery of evaluations, Anne and Miguel were presented with another possible diagnosis: their son Michael might be a psychopath.

For the past 10 years, Waschbusch has been studying &#8220;callous-unemotional&#8221; children &#8212; those who exhibit a distinctive lack of affect, remorse or empathy &#8212; and who are considered at risk of becoming psychopaths as adults.

Currently, there is no standard test for psychopathy in children, but a growing number of psychologists believe that psychopathy is a distinct neurological condition &#8212; one that can be identified in children as young as 5.

<sniped - read more>

As totally depressing as that is, wouldn't it be just great if we could really master this type of psychology so that we catch these things before they happen? And maybe even pioneer some new treatments and stuff? Perhaps a psychopath who hasn't yet harmed anyone could be viewed as a victim/patient, and could be compassionately cared for until they can be a functional member of society, just like people with autism spectrum disorders and so on. It doesn't really sound that far-fetched if you think of psychopathy as a neurological disorder instead of someone just having a horrible personality.

ETA: Er, not that I'm likening psychopathy with any other neurological disorder of any kind or saying that people with any kind of disorder are "not functional members of society". Just thought I would clarify that ^_^;

 

[Kale]

And it's because some people simply desire to kill that there is no focus on them that will quell that impulse.

I understand what you're saying, but I personally am disturbed by the direction much of the discourse about assaults on women is taking in our culture. There is a worldview being promoted on college campuses through events like 'Take Back the Night', where men march along side women with the message that only men can prevent assaults on women, and that is where the focus should be.

If only violent perpetrators would get this through their heads, right?

Is it reasonable that women leave their doors unlocked and their curtains open because we should be able to do so without fear of someone attacking us, and we need to talk to males more about their role in assault? No, we would not argue that.

Is it reasonable that children play in the street because it's the drivers who are responsible for not running them over, and we need to focus more on educating drivers? No, we would not argue that.

I don't blame Hannah for what a violent predator did to her. But neither do I think that violent predators care what you or I or anyone else thinks about violence.

Sociopaths and psychopaths are still lying in wait for the next victim no matter how many healthy men reject violence and march with women, and these predators are hunting the woman who's walking alone.

JMO

BBM. THIS is a perspective I can actually wrap my head around. I definitely fear the emotionless psychopath.

 

[Heroine]

Since the announcement today I had to take a little break. This case has really taken a toll on me, being the mother of two beautiful daughters makes you look at this in a whole other light. I would get so emotional at times trying to defend the fact that I knew this man was guilty. I just knew it deep down and any shred of evidence I could find against him, I did. So thanks to the people who put up with my DNA debate. I promise I was only trying to help.

I realize after I said what I said about JM's attorney and the parents letter that I may have came off insensitive as far as his parents go. I know they are hurting just as much as Hannah's parents are so I'm sorry if I made it sound as if I didn't think they were. I still feel the letter a little odd, not because of his parents but because of the source, his attorney. I just think if I were JM's lawyer I would have advised against it, but hey, that's me. If it is true that he tried to stop them from saying what they said, then I commend them for standing up for what is right even when they are losing a son in the process.

Since all of this, I just keep thinking, I wish they would look for every lost person the way they did for Hannah. I am still blown away by what CPD have managed to accomplish in such a small amount of time, even though 35 days was a very long time when we didn't know where Hannah was, it was still a short time for everything they have now compiled against him.

Sending my prayers to Hannah and Morgan's family! May God wrap those sweet angels in his arms tonight and tell them how much they are loved and how brave they are for helping so many others. RIP sweet heros with halos!

 

[cluciano63]

First, I am not positive they have quite enough to charge JM for murder right now, or I think they would have already. They are keeping tip line open and want people near the recovery site to be alert for any evidence. Just my opinion, though.

Also, I don't believe parents who raise serial or other killers are always to blame, some come from average families with no apparent warning signs acknowledged by anyone, or maybe they are labeled something else along the way. No one ever believed their child could turn up to be a killer, Imo. They are "introspective" or "loners" or even "feisty" or "high spirited" if they are "difficult". And most won't be. I doubt very much JM's family thought he was dangerous until the college cases surfaced, and most parents could probably convince themselves that they were "he said,she said" cases. Parents can be blind to serious flaws in their kids, we have seen that often enough.

Jmo

 

[WhitegateGirl]

BBM. THIS is a perspective I can actually wrap my head around. I definitely fear the emotionless psychopath.

Yeah, Kale, I'm with you. I don't see this as something that can be reasoned away or worked out in therapy. Emotionless is a good word for that state, and without emotion, one can't be inspired to feel guilt, love, accountability, pity or compassion. It's what allows an individual to coldly stalk, rape, and kill an innocent young woman he doesn't even know. Because at bottom, nothing and no one matters to this person except himself and his own desires.

 

[human]

Good advice for normal offspring. For psychopaths such as JLM, it won't work. They don't understand love.

I will not believe an infant is born evil. A one year old is not evil.

How we treat infants impacts what happens. Otherwise we could just leave them in a crib all day , change them and feed them and they would be ok.

Children need love, holding, having their cries answered, interactions with caregivers, and guidance not fear or violence, for instance.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

Great point! And they also seem to be trying to distance themselves from JM by using the Carr surname in their statement.

His mother and grandmother ARE the Carr family. If the statement had read "On behalf of the Matthews family" it would have appeared the statement was on behalf of his father.

There's been plenty of media coverage that Hannah's disappearance caused a forensic discovery that linked her to Morgan. If the statement had said they were only thinking of Hannah's family, everyone would have been asking "why don't they care about Morgan's family when everyone knows he's involved in her death, too?"

The statement was really just about as straightforward as it could be, given the circumstances. If Jesse's father was involved it would have said "on behalf of the Carr and Matthews families" so it indicates to me he hasn't been communicating with Jesse's attorney.
I don't think a plea deal will even be entertained in any of these cases. There is DNA in the rape case and I doubt it's saliva or skin samples. He strangled her until she was unconscious and left her for dead. That's pretty clearly attempted murder. And he can't even argue it was consensual like his first two rapes that he got away with, because he didn't know the victim prior to the attack.

 

[Kale]

I will not believe an infant is born evil. A one year old is not evil.

How we treat infants impacts what happens. Otherwise we could just leave them in a crib all day , change them and feed them and they would be ok.

Children need love, holding, having their cries answered, interactions with caregivers, and guidance not fear or violence, for instance.

I think that a normal child who is neglected in such a way may turn bitter as a result of said neglect. But if it is true that a child can be born with psychopathy, it's not saying that they're born "evil", but "ill". Like I said before, it's a pleasant dream to imagine that someday some people could be recognized as sufferers of an illness and not as pure evil heartless monsters, and that those people could receive treatment.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Rest In Peace, Hannah Graham. You are home now with those who love you. Condolences to them for their loss and let them find peace someday soon.

 

[WhitegateGirl]

I think that a normal child who is neglected in such a way may turn bitter as a result of said neglect. But if it is true that a child can be born with psychopathy, it's not saying that they're born "evil", but "ill". Like I said before, it's a pleasant dream to imagine that someday some people could be recognized as sufferers of an illness and not as pure evil heartless monsters, and that those people could receive treatment.

I'm with you on this. More and more, it seems as if sociopathy/psychopathy is coming to be regarded as congenital, not environmental. Sure, there's no doubt that some people become warped by their childhood environment or lack of proper nurture, and often those people resemble sociopaths in their behavior and attitudes, as well as in the crimes they may commit. But a true sociopath is, I believe, born rather than made, and though it would be wonderful if sociopaths could be treated and cured, I think it would be very hard to find an example of true sociopathy being cured. I recommend the NY Times piece that Foxfire posted a link to tonight. It's a fascinating and chilling read.

 

[jillycat]

I will not believe an infant is born evil. A one year old is not evil.

How we treat infants impacts what happens. Otherwise we could just leave them in a crib all day , change them and feed them and they would be ok.

Children need love, holding, having their cries answered, interactions with caregivers, and guidance not fear or violence, for instance.

But some infants, despite the best care and most loving home, grow to be sociopathic adults. I don't think of it as an infant being evil. I think of it as badly written code the gene pool spits out at times, for reasons we may never ascertain. But the result is an individual that can't be trained or nurtured into emotional or psychological health because the basic building blocks were never there.

JMO

 

[MtnLaur]

Well said- so frustrating. I find myself not just incredibly sad but really really pissed off about Hannah , so angry for her suffering and eminent death at the hands of this monster. And, although I understand the above statement , I hate it. I hate that vulnerability that exists for women, for Hannah,for Morgan and all others, I just want a ermanent life line. Unrealistic , I know.
I suppose if I was a gazelle that I would instinctively know riding the edge of the herd was a sure way to get picked off but, still at some point, I'm young , fearless / foolish/ sidetracked , inexperienced- you name it and next you know, I'm riding the herd rim. The stumblings of life take us places that can be unfamilar and terrifying where a life line is crucial. Let us be the good, honest and true life lines that help girls get home , to the safety of their life, to friends and family. I want to be a part of a giant network of people who are aware, alert and take action to help get a girls somewhere safe just because it's the right thing to do. Through my fat haze of anger and giant vindictive feelings toward this monster who stole Hannah's life , at the core , my hope is the we "save the next girl" , that good people lean in.

To my fellow Websleuthers, with a special nod to Sachi, ClueingForLooks, and ThinkHard: I've been sitting here tonight on the sofa, reading about everyone's thoughts and feelings, and feeling such a sense of friendship with all our fellow WS's. I feel that we've all shared this loss together, and we're raging and venting and crying and shaking our heads with the frustration of this senseless tragedy. I'm just a stupid newbie, and feeling even more stupid when I realize that these "comrades in arms" that I've come to know in the last few weeks are actually strangers--heck, I don't know if you're old, young, guys, or gays..(edit-gals)- lol-(kudos to sleuther John?) . But stranger or no, I want to thank all of you for teaching me, for enlightening me, and for surprising me with the refreshing notion that there are so MANY, MANY good people in the world. We all have our own perspectives, our own separate lives, but by golly-- what my old Psych professor told me absolutely rings true: WE ARE MORE ALIKE THAN WE ARE DIFFERENT. And I really do feel as though we've all had a good, old-fashioned hen party...(ok, I admit I'm a hen--don't mean to leave out you roosters!)

I thank all of you!

Sachi, ClueingForLooks, and ThinkHard: You guys have really touched me. You've made me think. I know that all of you probably feel frustrated, and saddened, and angry -we all do-and it's obvious you want things to change...you want to help! Sachi, you broke my heart when you said you hated the vulnerability of women in the world today...that you'd like to have a "lifeline." I agree! You said you'd like to be a part of a "giant network of people who are aware, alert and take action..." Me, too! We need to have a national conversation...others have spoken eloquently about this tonight. Let's be each other's lifelines.

ThinkHard, you mentioned taking care of ourselves and others, and all that that entails. Someone then pointed our attention again to "Help Save The Next Girl": (a product born of necessity, because of vulnerability)...and yet a beautiful tribute to Morgan and a wonderful reflection of her parents' resilience...an example of what can be accomplished when the human spirit is on fire for a Cause.

And then, ClueingForLooks, you made us keenly aware that self-defense and self-awareness are vital, but are only part of the game. I loved your example about the relative ease of learning how to use pepper spray, as compared to the difficulty of teaching a whole generation of boys (and as you said, increasingly girls) to become healthy, respectful, and non-violent (paraphrasing all.)

Wow! Maybe part of Hannah's legacy will be each one of us getting up, reaching out, doing SOMETHING! So many have spoken so poignantly tonight of Hannah...it's heartwrenching. How could she ever in a million years have known what was to come? How could she have ever fathomed the thunderous impact she would have on thousands of people? She, Morgan, and all our Va girls will not be forgotten. They, and their families will serve as a beacon to the rest of us. So it leaves me hopeful and it makes me proud to be a part of our little community here. Thanks, everybody, for being here tonight.

 

[Kale]

I'm with you on this. More and more, it seems as if sociopathy/psychopathy is coming to be regarded as congenital, not environmental. Sure, there's no doubt that some people become warped by their childhood environment or lack of proper nurture, and often those people resemble sociopaths in their behavior and attitudes, as well as in the crimes they may commit. But a true sociopath is, I believe, born rather than made, and though it would be wonderful if sociopaths could be treated and cured, I think it would be very hard to find an example of true sociopathy being cured. I recommend the NY Times piece that Foxfire posted a link to tonight. It's a fascinating and chilling read.

I wonder how they would get test subjects... I suppose they could experiment on prisoners, but we all know that's a heap and a half of controversy. And yeah, I opened Foxfire's link, it seems incredibly interesting. I forgot I opened it, I should read it before bed!

 

[ArmchairSherlock]

I have one question---and it's just a question, not a commentary or anything else. Just curiosity now. Did they ever release the identity of the white male who followed her, then decided she was safe because she'd met JM? I always wondered how they were able to dismiss him from having any involvement quickly. Heard some theories that he is retired LE, etc., but really, I'm just wondering if anyone found out who he was. He must feel terrible.