Post sentencing discussion

[Deleted member 102539]

A miracle has happened: Arnold, Lois, Aimee, Carl - nobody has a new tweet!

This is meant neither positive nor negative .... only a surprise.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

As one would never judge a child by adult standards, specialized training explicitly implies that one is held to a HIGHER standard (judges, doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc.)

By virtue of OP’s gun training and certification, the standard against which he should be judged is not merely the “reasonable man” but the reasonable certified gun owner.

This highly gun-specific standard is crucial to this case - Masipa conveniently glossed over it in her mad rush to “remorseful” CH.

Anyone who reads the SA gun laws knows that if it’s illegal to shoot a burglar who’s stealing right in front of you (absent actual or imminent attack), it’s certainly illegal to shoot an unseen person behind a closed door.

Oscar CERTIFIED that he knew the gun laws long before he shot four Black Talons through that closed, locked door.

If one willfully IGNORES the law, willfully IGNORES their training, it goes to clear INTENT. One cannot suddenly plead ignorance when convenient, if previously one has legally certified that same training and knowledge.

Only one logical conclusion is possible: OP fully intended to unlawfully kill a human being who was zero threat to him. Whether it was an “intruder” or Reeva is 100% immaterial - it was murder.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

“I was afraid for my life.”

This is the all too common excuse that hyper-aggressive, militarized American cops give for fatally shooting hundreds of unarmed people every year (and thousands of innocent pets).

Very rarely are they ever charged with murder, much less convicted. It’s essentially become the standard go-to phrase to justify any and all police killings - the Official Get-Out-of-Jail Card that institutionalizes excessive force on steroids. “Internal” police investigations* nearly always find these killings “justified”.

OP’s PPD defense is virtually no different than legalized law enforcement murder.

“I was scared.”

It covers all sins.

The problem with such a simplistic, self-serving defense is that if fear alone (absent threat or attack) was a valid defense to homicide, we’d ALL be killers walking freely without fear of punishment. However, it appears that only SWAT and OP are allowed the legal privilege of equating “fear” = actual attack. (Seriously, how “fearful” can one be, hiding behind a 9mm loaded with Black Talons or an AK-47, decked out in full military combat gear?)

* Foxes guarding the hen house - investigating a fox who killed a chicken.

 

[geevee]

This was published on 26 Feb 2013. Some of the information is inaccurate - "It also emerged on Sunday that police told Reeva's family that Oscar Pistorius crushed his girlfriend's skull with a cricket bat before shooting her dead. ... But grieving relatives who saw her body before Tuesday's cremation in Port Elizabeth described horrific injuries from the cricket bat, and entry wounds from 9mm bullets fired by Pistorius".

The following certainly sparked my interest.

"Miss Steenkamp is seen grinning as security guards let her drive her Mini Cooper into the Silver Woods estate on the outskirts of Pretoria just before 6pm.

Ten minutes later, Paralympic champion Pistorius is also shown arriving in his white BMW.

He uses a lane that is further away from the CCTV camera and it does not capture his facial expression.

According to police, soon after the recording was taken the couple started arguing so loudly that his neighbours heard them 'shouting and screaming'.

I've read that the police had been called previously and a policewoman on Youtube on the 14th said there had been other incidents (plural), one obviously being the Cassidy Taylor-Memmory one, but I always put a second event has having occurred on a totally different day/month/year. If this is correct, why haven't we heard of it before? Maybe it was brushed under the carpet at the time, OP being who he, just like other incidents that have disappeared. If true, why didn't these neighbours testify? It is possible it happened on the day but this is the only time I've seen this.

http://www.fijitimes.com/story.aspx?id=226308

In regards to the bolded part above, if the police had been out to his house earlier in the evening, this must be what OP was referring to when he was on the stand under cross examination and said he was going to ask Reeva why she called the police. Too bad Nel didn't really drill him on that instead of letting him hem and haw as if he misspoke.

 

[jilly]

Studies about fatherless mice and sugar consumption?

What the hell is going on around here?!!! :doh:

:giggle:

 

[jilly]

A little known fact, fatherless mice tend to be diabetic.

:hilarious:

 

[Lux et Veritas]

While you can find a study for pretty much anything these days, people just need to use their logic to recognize what is right and wrong. If we don't accept valid research, we will never progress as a society. Take for instance sugar. There have been studies that have shown that sugar is NOT detrimental to the human body. When you dig deep into this research, you'll find that these studies have been undertaken by researchers on behalf of the sugar industry. Today, most people believe that sugar in large quantities is bad for the body, resulting in obesity, diabetes, cancer, heart disease, etc.

Why do we accept that sugar is bad for us? Because there is clear overwhelming research to show this.

In the same regard, while I agree with you that behavioural problems are multifaceted, one clear indication of behavioural problems is the absence of a father figure in a household. Researchers have proven this over and over and I'm not sure why some (not you personally) are reluctant to even believe this.

Below are some additional studies on this subject.

Fatherless children are at a dramatically greater risk of drug and alcohol abuse, mental illness, suicide, poor educational performance, teen pregnancy, and criminality.
Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics, Survey on Child Health, Washington, DC, 1993.

High risk. Fatherless children are at dramatically greater risk of suicide.
Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics, Survey on Child Health, Washington, DC, 1993.

Psychiatric Problems. In 1988, a study of preschool children admitted to New Orleans hospitals as psychiatric patients over a 34-month period found that nearly 80 percent came from fatherless homes.
Source: Jack Block, et al. "Parental Functioning and the Home Environment in Families of Divorce," Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, 27 (1988)

In a longitudinal study of 1,197 fourth-grade students, researchers observed "greater levels of aggression in boys from mother-only households than from boys in mother-father households."
Source: N. Vaden-Kierman, N. Ialongo, J. Pearson, and S. Kellam, "Household Family Structure and Children's Aggressive Behavior: A Longitudinal Study of Urban Elementary School Children," Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology 23, no. 5 (1995).

Violent rejection: Kids who exhibited violent behavior at school were 11 times as likely not to live with their fathers and six times as likely to have parents who were not married. Boys from families with absent fathers are at higher risk for violent behavior than boys from intact families.
Source: J.L. Sheline (et al.), "Risk Factors...", American Journal of Public Health, No. 84. 1994.

The 'hood The likelihood that a young male will engage in criminal activity doubles if he is raised without a father and triples if he lives in a neighborhood with a high concentration of single-parent families.
Source: A. Anne Hill, June O'Neill, "Underclass Behaviors in the United States," CUNY, Baruch College. 1993

Vansleuths, while I appreciate your research, links and sentiments, I believe you overlook three very critical factors (I’m sure there are others):

1) Two-parent households can be as damaging and dysfunctional as any mother-only (or father-only) household ... if not more so. Parental ‘quantity’ doesn’t insure parental quality.

2) Undue (if not sometimes wholly undeserved) importance is attached to the alleged positive influence of a father in the home, essentially taking the mother’s influence and impact completely out of the equation - as if the children’s fate depended totally on dad. Depending on the father, sometimes the best thing in a child’s life is that he’s gone.

3) There are MANY other vital, often very positive guiding influences in a child’s life other than parents, including an extended family, friends, teachers, etc.

Yes, it would be GREAT if all kids grew up in loving, stable, happy two-parent homes but reality is not like Leave It to Beaver or the Brady Bunch. The reality is that there are millions of happy, well-adjusted kids in mom-only homes (and dad-only) and too many miserable, messed-up kids in miserable, messed-up mom-and-pop homes.

Like they say, it takes a village to raise a child.

Which village that might be is less important than what kind of village.

 

[mrjitty]

bbm. have you worked this from the op defence point of view, and from the bail statement point of view?

for instance, three further shots not included in the bail statement - wouldn't that be a risk, not knowing at the time what any witnesses had heard? or what the police might find?
and conversely, three prior shots could have been woven into the bail statement, and helped the op defence - i.e. as warning shots to the 'intruder'.

as an aside.
looking back at the bail statement throws up a few things, in light of what we now know. for instance:
"With the benefit of hindsight I believe that Reeva went to the toilet when I went out on the balcony to bring the fan in"
and...
"I have no knowledge of any evidentiary material which may exist with regard to the allegations levelled against me.
In any event, I believe that whatever such evidence may be, it is in the possession of the police; it is safely secured and I do not have access thereto."
and, maybe more pertinent to the gunshots/bat order...
"A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door." - if the door hitting/breaking with the cricket bat was done in one step, why the need to qualify here with 'panel or panels'?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-full-court-statement-1718677

I continue to be amazed that his bail statement could have the wrong version. On the balcony. One fan.

This is the kind of thing that reveals Masipa to be a very low quality criminal judge utterly lacking in her own trial experience.

its simply impossible that this could be inconsistent unless he lied in one version.

Of course he tried to say "oh my lawyers prepared it" but it is his statement to the Court.

So he is a liar.

So how on earth was his explanation of the "accident" accepted?

 

[G.bng]

I continue to be amazed that his bail statement could have the wrong version. On the balcony. One fan.

This is the kind of thing that reveals Masipa to be a very low quality criminal judge utterly lacking in her own trial experience.

its simply impossible that this could be inconsistent unless he lied in one version.

Of course he tried to say "oh my lawyers prepared it" but it is his statement to the Court.

So he is a liar.

So how on earth was his explanation of the "accident" accepted?

BIB
How? Why, the common cause timeline of course tested against common cause objective data. That is the call times wonder advocate Nel (i.e. the State) accepted as common cause. And since the State accepted Johnson's call time as common cause and accepted that the end of Johnson's call, i.e. 3:17, was indicative of the time of the 2nd volley while at the same it was trashing Stipp's 3:15:51 call as indicative for that 2nd volley, we can only presume that either there were central time records that the State agreed with the defence were correct and which we were not party to or the State was grossly negligent and/or foolhardy and/or plain dumb stupid. Simples!

 

[G.bng]

I thought OP was allowed to go and wash by one of the policemen? Unfortunately I can no longer remember exactly when this was. I have to admit the intricacies of the stories are fading rapidly and accept you diligently have been working on these recently.

No problem. When memory fades there are always the transcripts!

OP: I was standing in the kitchen against the.. where the far side of the kitchen is, away from the dining room where there is prep bowl small sink and I asked a policeman if I may wash my hands. Because the smell of the blood was making throw up and he said he would ask and Mr van Rensburg, Colonel van Rensburg came back to me and he said me, I may wash my hands. I do not remember washing my chest. I just remember washing my hands and washing my face.

 

[foxbluff]

I agree with all you've said. The quality of the parenting is the most important thing. I'd like to add that a huge percentage of marriages/relationships with children end up in either divorce or separation. In Australia it's close to 50% and I've not read of any correlation between that and aggressive or deviant behaviour in the children of one parent families.

OP was not a child when his mother died, he was 15. I've not read of him displaying any aberrant behaviour prior to her death. If this is when he went to live with Arnold, you have by necessity to draw some conclusions here. Why was he allowed to drive a car without a licence? How was he able to buy a car before he was old enough to do so? This points to Arnold IMO. Young men can be very reckless when they're young and good parents can and do point out the consequences of bad behaviour if they learn of it. However young people, both male and female, often hold the view, "That wouldn't happen to me". It's critical as parents to set out boundaries from early childhood and keep reinforcing them as they mature.

A further point, but nothing to do with your post. Arnold has a 24 room mansion, and no doubt his brothers have very large homes too, leaving aside Henke. Is it conceivable in your wildest dreams that Oscar, Carl and Aimee would not have been taken in by someone in the family and have them placed into orphanages as wards of the state? Totally ridiculous.

BBM - You've got me wondering now who took care of OP and siblings after the death of their mother and for how long. I'm wondering if he had occasion to live in the home of more than one relative.

I'm pretty sure I recall reading a quote from OP in which he stated that it was his mother's sister (last name Binge) who took care of him and siblings immediately after the death of his mother. He also stated that he would (?or had to) spend school holidays at the homes of different classmates.

I've never read his biography so I couldn't have seen it there, but perhaps someone posted an excerpt from it onboard?? Does anybody know if there's a place online which shows parts of the book? TIA

 

[foxbluff]

A miracle has happened: Arnold, Lois, Aimee, Carl - nobody has a new tweet!

This is meant neither positive nor negative .... only a surprise.

Didn't somebody here post (yesterday or day before) that it was reported that the family had closed their accounts or am I dreaming???

 

[soozieqtips]

BBM - You've got me wondering now who took care of OP and siblings after the death of their mother and for how long. I'm wondering if he had occasion to live in the home of more than one relative.

I'm pretty sure I recall reading a quote from OP in which he stated that it was his mother's sister (last name Binge) who took care of him and siblings immediately after the death of his mother. He also stated that he would (?or had to) spend school holidays at the homes of different classmates.

I've never read his biography so I couldn't have seen it there, but perhaps someone posted an excerpt from it onboard?? Does anybody know if there's a place online which shows parts of the book? TIA

This post from sleuth-d might help with some of your questions.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...sentencing-discussion&p=11151959#post11151959

 

[JudgeJudi]

Didn't somebody here post (yesterday or day before) that it was reported that the family had closed their accounts or am I dreaming???

I posted that on p.50 #1243. Note the year is 2013. That may be the cause of any confusion.

 

[mirage1]

Just thinking back to one of Masipa's hilarious conclusions that the whatsapp messages of reeva saying she was scared of Oscar were just normal relationship dynamics and were not relevant to the crime. As soon as I heard her pull Nel up on this during cross examination I got worried, and rightfully so.

 

[ColonelMustard]

(Please forgive me for this lengthy post.)

A long time ago, someone here linked to an article that was so good that I continued following the author as the trial moved along. He's funny, irreverent, and though-provoking.

Given that we are in-between the trial and the appeal, and because someone else might also enjoy reading them, I put together a list with links to all of them, beginning with the most recent at the top.

**Warning** Beloved fellow sleuthers who hold the minority view. Be forewarned that the author holds the majority view and can, at times, be quite disparaging of those who don't.

Professor MA Simpson is known as Health24's CyberShrink.
He is a South African Psychiatrist who qualified in medicine and in psychiatry in Britain. He has been a senior academic, researcher, and Professor in several countries, having worked at London University in the United Kingdom; McMaster University in Canada; Temple University in Philadelphia, USA.; and the University of Natal, in South Africa. He has experience of State and private practice in each of these countries.

• The Pistorians – when love is blind
  CyberShrink explores why ordinary women (and sometimes even men) fall in love with people on trial or convicted of nasty crimes. 2014/10/24
  ​
  
• An open letter to Oscar
  CyberShrink writes an open letter to Oscar Pistorius, with advice on how to rise above his recent past and, once again, become a useful, productive member of society. 2014/10/22
  ​
  
• Oscar – the long-awaited verdict
  Oscar’s received a lenient sentence, and with good behaviour, could be out of jail and back in the mansion in less than a year. 2014/10/22
  ​
  
• Oscar – Roux's rants against the media
  According to CyberShrink, Barry Roux, like Oscar Pistorius, prefers to blame others for anything that goes wrong and maintains that the charge of premeditated murder has in itself damaged Oscar. 2014/10/20
  ​
  
• Who’s on trial, Oscar or SA's prisons?
  The general state of South Africa’s prisons may be deplorable, but for the purpose of this phase of the trial, the fact is completely irrelevant. 2014/10/17
  ​
  
• Is Oscar really a ‘broken man’?
  Cybershrink is nauseated by the defence's insistence that Oscar is a 'broken man'. 2014/10/16
  ​
  
• Is Oscar Pistorius really writing a book?
  Oscar Pistorius is writing a book detailing his side of the murder of Reeva Steenkamp. Cybershrink deciphers what it all means. 2014/09/16
  ​
  
• Oscar Pistorius and his Tinker Bell defence
  Clap hands if you believe in fairies! A lot of scientific hogwash presented during the Oscar Pistorius trial. 2014/08/12
  ​
  
• Nel nails Oscar as a deceitful witness
  Health24's CyberShrink, columnist Professor Michael Simpson comments on the first day of closing arguments in the Oscar Pistorius trail. 2014/08/12
  ​
  
• If the Oscar trial were a movie ...
  What was Oscar doing in a nightclub, cringes at his Tweets, and proposes a cast for Oscar: The Movie. 2014/08/07
  ​
  
• Who's nuts: Oscar or his defence?
  Oscar Pistorius' defence has dug a nice hole for themselves with Dr Vorster's very precise evidence. 2014/07/16
  ​
  
• Back to school at the Oscar trial
  It's clear Oscar did not suffer from generalised anxiety disorder, and we still don't know if he screams like a woman. 2014/07/16
  ​
  
• All said and done, we still don't know WHY Oscar shot Reeva
  The evidence is at an end but the case is not over yet. The red herrings and weak witness testimony and comes to the conclusion that we still don't know why Oscar killed Reeva. And then there's the mediocre social media analysis by Channel 199 ... 2014/07/16
  ​
  
• Cherry-picking reports and that reconstructed video
  Derman dribbles, Roux cherry-picks from the strangely unavailable report and a leaked re-construction video of what happened on that night and that strongly contradicts the psychologists' report. 2014/07/16
  ​
  
• The Oscar trial witnesses: awful, pompous and condescending
  Health24's CyberShrink, yawns at the ridiculous, boring testimony at the Oscar Pistorius trial and, as a disabled person himself, strongly objects to the defence's attempt to create excuses for Oscar. 2014/07/03
  ​
  
• Oscar's defence continues to implode
  Broken promises, pointless witnesses and delaying tactics: poor performance by Oscar's defence team. 2014/07/02
  ​
  
• Oscar returns – with a glut of witnesses
  Oscar's first day back in court started off with perfunctory details of his psychological report, and some very unhelpful witnesses. 2014/07/02
  ​
  
• Oscar’s ‘part-time’ assessment
  Oscar Pistorius will have to report to the medical superintendent of the psychiatric facility of Weskoppies Hospital in Pretoria every weekday from 9am until 4pm.*2014/05/21
  ​
  
• Oscar Trial: The shrink has shrunk
  The latest witness to be called in Oscar Pistorius's defence was forensic psychiatrist Merryl Vorster. Cybershrink dissects her evidence. 2014/05/21
  ​
  
• The failure of forensics, and amateur psychobabble*
  How Oscar's defence team kept on shooting themselves in the foot and points out a number of inaccuracies in the media. 2014/05/13
  ​
  
• We’ve been punked. The Oscar trial gets truly ridiculous.
  The defence has continued to be bewildering, but on Thursday it became really foolish, to the point that I expected Ashton Kutcher to leap out and giggle at us. 2014/05/09
  ​
  
• The adoration of Oscar
  The phenomenon of the 'Pistorians', a small and fascinatingly odd bunch of fanatics passionately convinced of Oscar's innocence.* 2014/05/09
  ​
  
• Melodramatics, bias, and the Mystery of the Dog in the Night.
  Health24's CyberShrink, Prof Michael Simpson bemoans the lengthy (and costly) break in court proceedings, followed by distinctly lack-lustre witnesses. 2014/05/08
  ​
  
• Yawn, yawn, snooze: Oscar’s Defense potters around
  Health24's CyberShrink Prof Simpson asks "What is Oscar's defence up to? "And where's the beef"? 2014/05/08
  ​
  
• Oscar trial: Geology rocks?
  CyberShrink comments on the annihilation of the geologist in the Oscar Pistorius trial. 2014/04/24
  ​
  
• Do you hope Oscar is innocent, or do you need him to be innocent?
  CyberShrink Professor Michael Simpson 'unpacks' the many unanswered questions and irritations surrounding the Oscar Pistorius trial. 2014/04/23
  ​
  
• Oscar: The dog ate my homework
  So how is Oscar faring under cross-examination? Not very well, says CyberShrink. Not very well at all. 2014/04/15
  ​
  
• Has Oscar lost the plot?
  Is Oscar Pistorius emotionally incontinent, or has he lost the plot. 2014/04/11
  ​
  
• Oscar trial: police make a mess
  It’d be funny if it wasn’t all such a tragedy. Evidence continued to emerge of a typical police omni-shambles in the Oscar trial. 2014/03/31
  ​
  
• The Oscar Pistorius trial is super confusing
  Cybershrink wonders why full video footage of all witnesses cannot be allowed – from the neck down. Or why their identity can't be protected by re-enacting the proceedings with Lego figures. 2014/03/31
  ​
  
• The absurdities of the Oscar trial
  Cybershrink worries about a perversion of medical ethics and also about legal absurdities in the Oscar trial. 2014/03/11
  ​
  
• Oscar trial: who stole the show?
  Who stole the show in court this week? The witnesses, Oscar Pistorius, or Barry Roux? CyberShrink weighs in. 2014/03/07
  ​
  
• Psychiatrist: Why Oscar deserves to be on TV
  Should celebrities be able to choose to switch off the media machine when it doesn't suit them? CyberShrink thinks not. 2014/03/03
  ​
  
• Oscar: why the sick jokes?
  Why do people make sick jokes about other people's tragedies? CyberShrink comments. 2013/02/24

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Didn't somebody here post (yesterday or day before) that it was reported that the family had closed their accounts or am I dreaming???

The closing for only a few days happened after Carl's account beeing hacked, I think.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.health24.com/Lifestyle/Healthy-you/How-to-spot-a-liar-20140409

Noncommittal phrases
A liar will use words such as "I think," "I believe," "to the best of my knowledge" or "kind of”. They try to keep the details of the story as vague as possible.

Oooohhhhh, I think, maybe I'm using the phrase "I think" here on WS a little too often ......

 

[jay-jay]

http://www.health24.com/Lifestyle/Healthy-you/How-to-spot-a-liar-20140409

Noncommittal phrases
A liar will use words such as "I think," "I believe," "to the best of my knowledge" or "kind of”. They try to keep the details of the story as vague as possible.

Oooohhhhh, I think, maybe I'm using the phrase "I think" here on WS a little too often ......

I quite often say 'I think' too, FG! I'm going to have to stop using it!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

O/T

Today I have "a fight for my life" with Java Update and permanent discontinuations of WS. I'm curious, who is eventually winning ....