Post sentencing discussion

[Deleted member 102539]

I've been working on mine, too, although it won't be as forensic as yours : ). It's a development of the 'version' I posted a while ago, as told by OP himself. Sorry it's so long!

I wake up Reeva says ‘Can’t sleep, Baba?’ I don’t look at her but I see the shape of her legs under the duvet I get out of bed rubbing my face with my hands and go over to the balcony doors it’s a really hot night but I want to close the doors and curtains even thought the aircon isn't working because I’m terrified of intruders even though I was happy to go to sleep with the doors open and the bathroom window unlocked because Reeva would have fought off an intruder all by herself I bring in the two fans that are on the balcony except they are not on the balcony moving the large one by grabbing it from the front and backing into the bedroom so I don't look at the bed which is really awkward as the fan is still on especially as I can hardly stand on my stumps I close the doors and draw the curtains so the bedroom is pitch black I shuffle around the bed but not looking at it making sure I don’t trip over the fans, ipad, hair clippers, reeva’s jeans, my grey vest, the extension cord, the fans’ cables plugged into the extension cord (except one of them isn’t because there is no space for it) and the duvet that was on the bed except it was on the floor all the while being so unstable on my stumps that I can’t balance but I can run and walk backwards on them if forced to re-enact how I killed my girlfriend

I get to the hi fi and even though the room is pitch black there’s a little blue LED light that’s really going to annoy me when I get back into bed even though it doesn’t shed enough light for me to see anything in the bedroom and I've managed to sleep every other night with it on I could switch it off at the mains socket but I reckon it would be far better to cover it with the jeans that the ultra neat and tidy Reeva has dumped on the floor inside out on top of the duvet that's on the floor except it's on the bed then SLAM! I get a startle when I hear the bathroom window slide open and Reeva's jeans fall on the floor on top of the duvet that's on the bed...

Immediately concluding there’s an intruder in the bathroom not that it could be Reeva who I am sharing a bed with and who might have got up to go to the bathroom when I was bringing in the fans that weren’t outside and not looking at the bed where I fully expect Reeva to be even though she’s actually in the bathroom I move to the left hand side of the bed and get my 9mm out from underneath it without stopping to tell Reeva what I am doing even though she's only a foot away from me (except she's in the bathroom) or pressing the panic button that I have in case intruders try to get into my house or activating the alarm that I may or may not have set before I went to sleep to attract attention or getting away from the danger by leaving the bedroom or shouting for help from the balcony or waiting in the bedroom for the intruder to come down the corridor so I could ambush him I whisper to her in a soft voice to call the police but don't check she's heard me I can't balance on my stumps but I have mobility on them so I make my way down the corridor having armed myself and approached the danger without intending to kill anyone shouting at the intruder to get the F out of my house get the F out of my house Reeva call the police while keeping quiet so as not to give away my position and not wondering why Reeva hasn’t replied then SLAM! I get a second startle when the toilet door is shut!

I get to the entrance to the bathroom and see the window is open but I’m sure there aren’t any other intruders on the ladder that isn’t propped up against the outside wall then SCREECH! I hear a sound that gives me a third startle and makes me think someone is coming out of the toilet but will later believe sounded like the magazine rack moving I decide not to fire into the shower cubicle in case the round ricochets and hits me so I fire four shots accidentally BANG...BANG BANG BANG into the toilet door without thinking (even though I had the time to think I shouldn't fire into the shower cubicle) and without meaning to fire the shots but intending to fire the shots pausing after the first shot to aim at the person in the toilet even though I never intended to kill reeva or anyone else for that matter because if I had I would have aimed higher and not hearing if reeva screamed after the first shot because my ears were ringing and I didn't foresee that firing four shots at someone behind a wooden door in a tiny cubicle might conceivably result in death

I then move back along the corridor without bothering to check whether there are any other intruders on the ladder that isn’t propped up against the wall still with my 9mm in my hand I get to the bed and I’m surprised that Reeva isn’t still in it even though I've been shouting at her and an intruder and I've fired four shots so I roll over the bed to check if she’s behind the curtains but she’s not it’s a second opportunity to activate my panic button or set off my alarm but I don’t do that or check if Reeva has actually gone out of the bedroom without activating the alarm that I can’t remember if I set or not I run back to the bathroom on the stumps I can hardly balance on screaming like a woman in fear of her life except I'm actually a man who has just realised I might have shot my girlfriend which sounds exactly the same and while shouting like a man at the same time the toilet door is locked so I shoulder charge it even though it opens outwards I run back to the bedroom to go onto the balcony taking care not to trip over the fans, cables, clippers, jeans, vest, duvet and ipad even though it’s still pitch black and the fans are blocking my way i may have tripped over the cord of the smaller fan and pulled it out of the white extension cord that it wasn't plugged into but I can't remember I shout HELP HELP HELP then go back into the bedroom past the panic button and decide to put my prosthetics on taking time to put my socks on first because I don’t want my stumps to get sore I grab my cricket bat and go back to the bathroom still screaming bloodcurdling screams like a woman whose life is in danger even though I'm a man whose life is not in danger I put down my 9mm and hit the door BASH...BASH BASH BASH coincidentally in the exact same pattern as the shots I fired earlier and by bending over so that I hit it at a height that is consistent with my being on my stumps even though I’m wearing my prosthesis I stop screaming like a woman who is being murdered as soon as I hit the door for the last time and rip the door panels off then I see Reeva slumped over the toilet but I don't make a sound even though I can see I've shot her I reach in to pick up the key to unlock the door then I check Reeva she is breathing even though she’s dead

I sit there with her for a while I don't know for how long then I battle to get her out of the toilet taking care not to get any blood on the soles of my socks I call my friend stander to tell him what's happened and to ask him to call an ambulance because that is quicker than calling for an ambulance myself then I call netcare who tell me to take a woman who's been shot in the head to hospital I go downstairs to open the door but can't remember whether I deactivate the alarm that I can't remember if I set earlier I go back upstairs to pick reeva up and take her downstairs carisse and stander arrive and I put reeva down at the foot of the stairs I stick my fingers in her mouth to help her breath while obstructing her airway even though she's dead then a doctor arrives and I scream at him to save her but he does nothing to help her and even though I've told God I'll dedicate my life to him if he lets her live she dies in my arms even though she's already dead


So now I can see why Masipa believed his story was reasonably possibly true.

During OP's testifying I'm sure, JM was nonstop thinking: OMG, the poor boy, what he can come up with all of ideas, as it could have been if he HAD suspected a burglar, OMG, the verrrry poooor boy.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Yep, it is. Like the bit where he says he wakes and notices that the fans are still on in his EIC.

"It was extremely warm in my room. I sat up in bed. I noticed that the fans were still running and that the door was still open."

He's so eager to tell us that the fans were on that he inserts it at this point when it makes no sense, since it implies that Reeva should have switched them off!

bbm = that falls on me ...!

 

[Mr Fossil]

I remember wondering a long time ago whether the first sounds could have been gunshots too. If OP had fired out of the window and then disposed of the cartridges somehow, then there would be no evicence of these shots for the investigators to find.

On that basis, it's not a far reached possibility.

But, there is a problem, in my opinion.

Given that only the Stipp's heard the first bangs, whereas pretty much everyone else heard the second, it would seem on the face of it quite likely that there was something different about the sets of sounds, even if they did sound roughly the same.

The most likely difference is audibility and it's the issue of "loudness" that will determine whether Person A hears something while Person B does not, especially if Person B is at a further away distance.

I think, on balance, that it is a bit a reach to expect an enraged Pistorius to have the presence of mind to dispose of evidence before he'd even committed the crime, plus there's no sensible explanation for why only the Stipps heard the first set of gunshots, but no one else did. Gunshots are very, very loud...whereas a bat against any surface, not so much.

I think the first gunshot sounding cracks were him smacking up the bathroom....the door, the tiles and the bath panel. In a tiled room these cracks would have intensified and echoed and sailing straight across to the Stipps I think it's conceivable that they could have been mistaken for gunshots to two sleepy people who were also immediately assailed by horrifying screams.

JMO.

Only the Stipps heard the first sounds because Mrs Stipp was awake with the flu, the balcony door was open, the air con was off and they are just 72 metres from OP's open bathroom window (and a little further from the bedroom balcony doors).

I think that the ear witnesses start to stir at various points, whether because of the first sounds which they don't assimilate, the screams, the dogs barking or the second sounds.

But most importantly, the second shots are not heard at all by many neighbours living in the vicinity of OP's house, so it is not unrealistic IMO to think that only the Stipps heard the first shots.

As to clearing up the cartridge cases, we have to start first with him first telling people that he thought it was an intruder. If he is lying (as many of us think he is) then he must also realise that his phone messages are incriminating, so he needs to get the phone away and he is astute enough to place his 4949 phone (the one that is normally on charge in the kitchen) in the bathroom as a decoy for the police to find and to buy time. He then thinks to himself is there anything else that might contradict my intruder story? Cartridge cases on the bedroom floor wouldn't make sense. If he'd issued the intruder a warning why didn't Reeva respond? Why didn't the intruder negotiate with him? He concludes it's better to get rid of them. And then, conveniently, we have Reeva's bag being taken from the scene by his sister. That is not a normal thing to do, to take the evidence. JMO.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Only the Stipps heard the first sounds because Mrs Stipp was awake with the flu, the balcony door was open, the air con was off and they are just 72 metres from OP's open bathroom window (and a little further from the bedroom balcony doors).

I think that the ear witnesses start to stir at various points, whether because of the first sounds which they don't assimilate, the screams, the dogs barking or the second sounds.

But most importantly, the second shots are not heard at all by many neighbours living in the vicinity of OP's house, so it is not unrealistic IMO to think that only the Stipps heard the first shots.

As to clearing up the cartridge cases, we have to start first with him first telling people that he thought it was an intruder. If he is lying (as many of us think he is) then he must also realise that his phone messages are incriminating, so he needs to get the phone away and he is astute enough to place his 4949 phone (the one that is normally on charge in the kitchen) in the bathroom as a decoy for the police to find and to buy time. He then thinks to himself is there anything else that might contradict my intruder story? Cartridge cases on the bedroom floor wouldn't make sense. If he'd issued the intruder a warning why didn't Reeva respond? Why didn't the intruder negotiate with him? He concludes it's better to get rid of them. And then, conveniently, we have Reeva's bag being taken from the scene by his sister. That is not a normal thing to do, to take the evidence. JMO.

:yeahthat:

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, Roux makes a big thing of explaining how OP doesn't mean 'on to' when he says 'onto'.

"During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains."

However, OP then goes on to (no pun intended) confirm things in his Bail statement when he concludes:

"With the benefit of hindsight I believe that Reeva went to the toilet when I went out on the balcony to bring the fan in."

I went out on ... It couldn't be clearer.

I have been working on an analysis of OP's versions and the reasons for his changes, but it's very much a background task - each time I find a new anomaly I become sidetracked following up the implications. I'll put up a link to it when it has enough substance to make it worth reading.

Well the implication is simply that none of this happened.

To put it country simple, when the accused makes any kind of sworn statement under legal advice, whether it be a police statement, or an affidavit submitted to Court - then of course Counsel will make it 100% clear to the accused that this first version sets down a very clear marker than cannot be easily be departed from.

So in practice - the contents have been heavily discussed, and can be assumed to be accurate - unless the accused lies or makes a mistake.

We know that OP left out a key issue - i.e. was Reeva awake - the statement makes it appear she is asleep.

The balcony is a huge issue - there is no way he could have been "mistaken" about this.

Also one fan vs two fans.

Then there is all the stuff that was missing - to be added later

 

[mrjitty]

There's nothing in the bail statement about the toilet door slamming either, which became pretty damn crucial as the second 'startle'.

"I realised the intruder was in the toilet because the toilet door was closed."

Mere details!

The "plausible" defence was "broadly accurate"!

Oh wait - its completely different!

 

[mrjitty]

Only the Stipps heard the first sounds because Mrs Stipp was awake with the flu, the balcony door was open, the air con was off and they are just 72 metres from OP's open bathroom window (and a little further from the bedroom balcony doors).

I think that the ear witnesses start to stir at various points, whether because of the first sounds which they don't assimilate, the screams, the dogs barking or the second sounds.

But most importantly, the second shots are not heard at all by many neighbours living in the vicinity of OP's house, so it is not unrealistic IMO to think that only the Stipps heard the first shots.

As to clearing up the cartridge cases, we have to start first with him first telling people that he thought it was an intruder. If he is lying (as many of us think he is) then he must also realise that his phone messages are incriminating, so he needs to get the phone away and he is astute enough to place his 4949 phone (the one that is normally on charge in the kitchen) in the bathroom as a decoy for the police to find and to buy time. He then thinks to himself is there anything else that might contradict my intruder story? Cartridge cases on the bedroom floor wouldn't make sense. If he'd issued the intruder a warning why didn't Reeva respond? Why didn't the intruder negotiate with him? He concludes it's better to get rid of them. And then, conveniently, we have Reeva's bag being taken from the scene by his sister. That is not a normal thing to do, to take the evidence. JMO.

The removal of evidence from the crime scene is outrageous in my view.

As we have seen with the phone, there must have been some reason the bag needed to be removed.

Would love to know what it was.

 

[Marfa Lights]

I've been working on mine, too, although it won't be as forensic as yours : ). It's a development of the 'version' I posted a while ago, as told by OP himself. Sorry it's so long!
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<Snipped by me>

Delilah, that was a perfect synopsis! If there were a collection of Websleuth's greatest hits on the Pistorius forum, this would have to be included.

 

[soozieqtips]

I've been listening to Nel's x re the tasha incident and it is even more extraordinary in the light of OP's change of plea to guilty at the eleventh hour. He is adamant his finger was never on the trigger. He says so repeatedly; Nel must go over it at least five or six times. Unbelievable! Literally!!!

BIB - and Masipa didn't even admonish OP for wasting court time when he repeatedly lied about the incident. Roux must have 'put it to OP' that he didn't have a choice and would have to accept guilt over that particular charge. Why didn't Masipa make more of that as further proof of his deceitfulness?

 

[akp]

Mr Fossil and others

I'm about 15 pages behind everyone else so sorry if this has already been posted.

This relates to the debate over the first set of sounds and whether more than four shots were fired that night.

I've just been listening to Nel's x of OP (10 April session 2). He is going over the tasha incident, then he moves on to ask OP about what state he carries his firearm in.

Nel: how do you carry your pistol?
OP: I carry my pistol in a holster...
Nel: And as far as the rounds are concerned?
OP: I carry my firearm with a full magazine, milady

Are we any closer to establishing how many rounds were left in the magazine after the shooting?

This would make those extra shots unlikely, won't it?

If there were less than 13 unspent bullets, one would expect OP to wait for the State to bring it up and then try to explain by claiming that he started with lesser number of bullets to begin with - certainly he should not volunteer this information about starting with a full magazine.

Or is it that by that stage, the DT already knows what are all the evidences that the PT had got, and the number of unspent rounds was not among those - so he could confidently say that he starts with a full magazine?

But is this even possible, Police not having this information on unspent bullets? How sloppy the Police could have been? If this was indeed the case, in my view sloppiness can not be the reason. This is possible only if someone in the Police investigation team was compromised.

 

[foxbluff]

Thank you and well spotted. I needn't assume it any more. I'll add a reference to this in the 'Key questions' document.

As to the number of rounds, I only got as far as the post on page 43 e.g. there's at least 10 bullets left in the magazine out of a maximum of 17 and the spring coils suggest that might be all that are left.

BBM - I have no personal experience with the type of pistol OP used, but from my scribbled notes I see that Wolmarans testified on May 8 (his 1st day testifying) that the magazine/clip had a capacity of 17 rounds.

On the same piece of paper, regarding details on the gun, I had scribbled "17 rounds in magazine + one in the chamber. (Old notes can grow cold... I'm now unable to tell if it was Wolmarans who said that about the "+ one" or if I got that info from another source.)

Does OP's gun have the capacity to hold (18) rounds? If so, I just wanted to make sure you were using this info in your gun analysis. (And, of course, we don't know how many bullets remained after the shooting, but we do know there was "one up" in chamber.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Not that I've heard of here in Oz. Surely you're not suggesting pro bono in a huge case? I've never heard of that.

That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

​

What Makes A Lawyer WantTo Take A Case Pro Bono?

"If it's interesting enough -- unprecedented or career-building ... etc."

http://www.lawyerfreefaq.com/lawyer/lawyer-1-6638.html

========​

George Zimmerman's lawyers...

"3. The lawyers were tired of working pro bono..."

"4. The lawyers... seeking publicity for themselves"

http://theweek.com/article/index/226624/why-george-zimmermans-lawyers-dumped-him-5-theories

 

[ColonelMustard]

Foxbluff, if you disagree with any or all of this post, could you respond so I can learn more about your perspective ?

Nothing wrong with a close knit family. We dont know what has gone on and what has been said behind closed doors. Perhaps OP's family believes he snapped in a rage, but still want to support him. I think I know how I would be if my own brother was in OP's situation.

I find, with very rare exceptions, the people on this board are a very compassionate lot. IMO, the false reports you mention were in the news very early on and have been gone from peoples' heads for well over a year.

The horrible truth was enough on its own to cause outrage. Coupled with that there is the sense of entitlement communicated by this family with statements made to the media in various forms, including Twitter. There has been the immediate PR damage control. There was evidence removed from the crime scene. There were the three other charges. OP's lies, denials, and refusal to take any responsibility on the stand. His behavior at the VIP club. His remark in court to Gina Meyers. Then the judge discounting witnesses who heard screams. I am sure this is not an exhaustive list.

I suspect the friends who have abandoned him have outrage also.

IMO Oscar has thrown himself out with the bathwater and expects everyone else to save him.

 

[Mr Fossil]

BBM - I have no personal experience with the type of pistol OP used, but from my scribbled notes I see that Wolmarans testified on May 8 (his 1st day testifying) that the magazine/clip had a capacity of 17 rounds.

On the same piece of paper, regarding details on the gun, I had scribbled "17 rounds in magazine + one in the chamber. (Old notes can grow cold... I'm now unable to tell if it was Wolmarans who said that about the "+ one" or if I got that info from another source.)

Does OP's gun have the capacity to hold (18) rounds? If so, I just wanted to make sure you were using this info in your gun analysis. (And, of course, we don't know how many bullets remained after the shooting, but we do know there was "one up" in chamber.

Yes, all taken into account. The magazine that OP was using held up to 17 rounds, plus the one up, which makes a total of 18 rounds. The bullet that was 'one-up' can be seen on the towel in photo 195.

 

[foxbluff]

The issue with the balcony is more to do with not being able to hear a noise from the bathroom, I think.

If he went out into the balcony then he necessarily had to turn round and come back into the room. The first thing he would see doing that is the bed....and with the light from the balcony on, and the curtains parted enough for him to get through it would be literally impossible for him not to notice that the bed was empty.

He had to construct a narrative that had his back to the bed the whole time...going out onto the balcony then coming in again did not fit that. That's why it was changed, imo.

I agree with @Lithgow that OP would have been better off staying with the "I went out on the balcony."

BBM - Imho, he could have said that due to the bright lights on the balcony, he was momentarily blinded as he reentered the dark bedroom. And, that by the time his vision had cleared he already had his back to the bed placing the fan/fans.

 

[ColonelMustard]

http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/oscar-pistorius-ou-l-arme-du-clan_1252877.html

OP's grandparents and their 7 children:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...p-interview-now-clear-reeva-never-coming-back

Reeva understood the trade-off whereby celebrity wins attention for a cause, June says, and so was happy to appear in the reality TV show Tropika Island of Treasure. &#8220;She wanted a platform where people listened to her, and after Tropika she had that, because everybody knew her.&#8221;

Reeva was also a Christian, and Pistorius told the court that faith was crucial to their relationship. His Twitter feed, and those of his siblings Aimee and Carl, are replete with biblical quotations. June&#8217;s own faith in God was tested by the tragedy. &#8220;Why did He take Reeva? She was good and kind to other people and doing good in the world. But He didn&#8217;t actually take her &#8211; Oscar took her. And then her injuries were so bad He couldn&#8217;t save her. Even her brain wasn&#8217;t in her body.&#8221;

Christianity has enabled her to forgive Pistorius, at least intellectually. &#8220;You have to move forward with forgiveness, otherwise you carry all that hate in your heart. So I have forgiven. It&#8217;s got nothing to do with how I feel about the case, it&#8217;s just something I&#8217;m compelled to do.&#8221;

:tears:

 

[LemonMousse]

I agree with @Lithgow that OP would have been better off staying with the "I went out on the balcony."

BBM - Imho, he could have said that due to the bright lights on the balcony, he was momentarily blinded as he reentered the dark bedroom. And, that by the time his vision had cleared he already had his back to the bed placing the fan/fans.

He was momentarily blinded - but managed to turn round, close the blinds, curtains and door, then pick up the fans, navigate the detritus on the floor and position them facing the right direction at the end of the bed?

I wish he had said that....and been able to watch Nel make mincemeat of such a silly explanation.

I think Lithgow is right too.....it was a combination of the unlikeliness of hearing the window open from the balcony, plus a need to concoct a narrative that had him with his back to the bed at all times.

 

[LemonMousse]

http://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/oscar-pistorius-ou-l-arme-du-clan_1252877.html

OP's grandparents and their 7 children:

What does Arnold have strapped to his waist?

Not a gun, is it??

 

[ColonelMustard]

Only the Stipps heard the first sounds because Mrs Stipp was awake with the flu, the balcony door was open, the air con was off and they are just 72 metres from OP's open bathroom window (and a little further from the bedroom balcony doors).

I think that the ear witnesses start to stir at various points, whether because of the first sounds which they don't assimilate, the screams, the dogs barking or the second sounds.

But most importantly, the second shots are not heard at all by many neighbours living in the vicinity of OP's house, so it is not unrealistic IMO to think that only the Stipps heard the first shots.

As to clearing up the cartridge cases, we have to start first with him first telling people that he thought it was an intruder. If he is lying (as many of us think he is) then he must also realise that his phone messages are incriminating, so he needs to get the phone away and he is astute enough to place his 4949 phone (the one that is normally on charge in the kitchen) in the bathroom as a decoy for the police to find and to buy time. He then thinks to himself is there anything else that might contradict my intruder story? Cartridge cases on the bedroom floor wouldn't make sense. If he'd issued the intruder a warning why didn't Reeva respond? Why didn't the intruder negotiate with him? He concludes it's better to get rid of them. And then, conveniently, we have Reeva's bag being taken from the scene by his sister. That is not a normal thing to do, to take the evidence. JMO.

While not directly related to your post, here's something that's bothered me:

OP was shouting "Get out of my house! Get out of my house!" Then, he shot when he heard a noise, thinking someone was"coming out to get him."

How is the intruder supposed to get out of his house without first coming out of the toilet? That's like telling a person who's sitting to "Stand up! Stand up!", then shooting them because they stood up.

Moreover in the OP situation, I don't think he ever said, "I have a gun" or "I'm going to shoot." If someone is telling me to get out and I don't know they have a weapon, I might just "come out" so I can do what they're yelling at me TO do and thats to "get out of their house".