Post sentencing discussion

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I think you're exactly right, Colonel.

Even if Roux & Family prepared him for every eventuality, up until about ten minutes before Masipa sent him downstairs to the holding cells, I think Mr. Arrogance actually still believed he'd get away with merely correctional supervision and perhaps a fine for Tasha's (that alone pisses me off - she wouldn't even FINE him for such a flagrantly dangerous public offense?! :mad:)

(Where did you hear about that bet?)

My bookie.
 
He was momentarily blinded - but managed to turn round, close the blinds, curtains and door, then pick up the fans, navigate the detritus on the floor and position them facing the right direction at the end of the bed?

I wish he had said that....and been able to watch Nel make mincemeat of such a silly explanation.

I think Lithgow is right too.....it was a combination of the unlikeliness of hearing the window open from the balcony, plus a need to concoct a narrative that had him with his back to the bed at all times.

BBM - Perhaps it's just me, but I don't think my suggestion was any sillier than all the version(s) that OP came up with.
 
Yet what do we have here - SUCCESS!

Yes, Masipa - that rogue, judicial trailblazer, hands OP this legal first!

How did she do it?

Cutting, pasting and duck-taping prime bits of evidence to fit her chosen verdict.
Asking the wrong questions.
Giving the wrong answers.
Ignoring inconvenient questions altogether.
Willfully misinterpreting and misrepresenting the law.
And last, but not least, putting State’s damning evidence through a wood chipper.

But hey, she assured us her ruling was “balanced”, right?
What self-serving, toxic crud.

This is exactly why Masipa’s verdict is such a biased, flat-out fraud. She never once addressed the fact that NEVER was OP attacked nor was there ever any remote hint of an imminent attack. On his own version the door never opened! The only damage that night was to the bedroom door, the bathroom/toilet and Reeva. Oscar - not a single scratch or broken fingernail ... yet we are to believe that he was terrified, in fear for his life and too damn scared to even turn on a light. It simply defies all common sense.

This aspect of the SA gun law - attack as it relates to lawful self-defense - is clear and unambiguous. Self-defense requires actual or imminent ATTACK. Such a defense to a charge of murder would have no reason to exist without this one essential catalyst.

A closed, locked door = zero threat.
How can one claim “self-defense” against a stationary, inanimate object?
How can one even claim to mistakenly perceive such?
There’s simply nothing to “perceive” as nothing happened ... except in OP’s devious, storytelling mind.
The idea that his scenario involved any element of “self-defense” is ridiculous beyond reason.
There was literally nothing to defend against!


I don’t understand how this utterly crucial element was all but ignored by Masipa & Co. - its blatant omission reeks of bias, incompetence and/or gross corruption. OP is a trained, licensed gun owner - he KNOWS this backwards and forwards (as per gun dealer/trainer Sean Rens testimony). But, all of a sudden - this one night only - OP “forgets” all his training, “forgets” all the rules and Masipa lets him skate because he’s wailed and howled and puked his guts out in “remorse”?! (Unreliable State witness Dr. Stipp said so!) “Remorse” is cheap - ask a three year old.

What’s the freakin point of gun laws and licenses if one (read: Oscar Pistorius) is simply allowed to pull a Whoops-Sorry-My-Bad-LOL? It’s the worst kind of flagrant mockery of the rule of law; the worst, most unapologetic display of rich man’s justice; it utterly defies even common sense god gave horses and rocks.

If the Appeals Court fails to properly nail OP on dolus eventualis and re-sentence accordingly, we’ll know that SA justice is still corrupt to the rotten core.

Lux, you're sure full of p!$$ and vinegar today!

I LOVE IT!!
 
On the question of those initial bangs being gunshots or bat sounds - it now looks to me that there is a problem with the version that those are OP bashing up bathroom panels and tiles with bat. Going by Stipps' testimony, after this set of bangs and before the fatal bangs later, Reeva was outside the toilet cubicle, and in all probability, came into the bathroom (from downstairs, from bedroom, whatever) and entered the toilet (cf. their testimony regarding the scream coming nearer). Now if OP was already in the bathroom bashing up things in that manner, why would Reeva run towards the bathroom? Does not make sense.
 
I would love to see the judge's verdicts and sentencings for some of her cases. People say that she was tough but with this case she seemed very gullible and very sympathetic for a guy who shot his lady 4 times while they were the only 2 people in the room who supposedly just had a short conversation prior to him getting the fan.
 
It's a real pity this wasn't picked up by someone on the PT. Why would any person assume there was a lady involved unless they'd heard her voice. This is sufficient proof, for me at least, that she definitely heard both a man and a woman.

I said it at the time and I'll say it again...........................if Carice did actually hear Reeva screaming then she has to live with that for the rest of her life.
she lied and she should suffer for her lies forever................but....
If she didn't hear any screams then she must know by now the amount of people doubting her testimony and she should go to the media,when this is finally over,to clarify what she meant by saying "what happened to the lady?" IMO.

ps.
I cannot imagine the pain/trauma/devastation these witnesses must have went through and will still be going through because of this event and will be for the rest of their lives.
I therefore need to clarify my position/opinion and state that the guilty need to be punished to act as a deterrent to future offenders.
Harshly and unjustly the innocent witnesses are punished by far the worse................Carise may be one of those as she was genuinely upset on the stand as were all the other witnesses and I felt for every one of them................including OP even though I think he is a cold blooded murderer.
 
Studies about fatherless mice and sugar consumption?

What the hell is going on around here?!!! :doh:

I totally agree what a waste of time............................surely we should be discussing all his long legged blonde girlfriends to try and suss him out :innocent::dance::clap::hilarious:
 
On the question of those initial bangs being gunshots or bat sounds - it now looks to me that there is a problem with the version that those are OP bashing up bathroom panels and tiles with bat. Going by Stipps' testimony, after this set of bangs and before the fatal bangs later, Reeva was outside the toilet cubicle, and in all probability, came into the bathroom (from downstairs, from bedroom, whatever) and entered the toilet (cf. their testimony regarding the scream coming nearer). Now if OP was already in the bathroom bashing up things in that manner, why would Reeva run towards the bathroom? Does not make sense.

Wow... great catch, akp !!
 
BBM - Perhaps it's just me, but I don't think my suggestion was any sillier than all the version(s) that OP came up with.

Sorry - didn't mean you were silly for suggesting that. Rather, it would have been a silly thing for him to say - although, as you point out, no sillier than the rest of his barmy version!
 
Really? Are you crazy? What are you going to do if a crazed guy from South Africa shoots you four times in a toilet with Black Talent (OP's pronunciation) ammunition? His sister's likely to swipe that thing and read it, and they'll know all your secrets!!

Well, at least listen to your mother's advice and always wear clean underwear!

(In the US, everyone's mom tells them to be sure to always wear clean underwear just in case there's an accident and the ambulance personnel end up seeing them.)

//sarcasm//

:floorlaugh:
 
Just trying this idea on for size (Mr Fossil, where are ya...?)......

I don't believe the tripe about him bashing through the bedroom door in order to open it, and I think the fact that he felt the need to explain that suggests that damage happened that night. So, someone was trying to break open that door which means it was probably locked.

We have all assumed that the damage to the door was caused by OP. What if it was caused by Reeva trying to get out? Maybe he locked her in, rather than her locking him out?

This would explain why she didn't escape once things got really violent. Maybe she couldn't?
 
Yet what do we have here - SUCCESS!

Yes, Masipa - that rogue, judicial trailblazer, hands OP this legal first!

How did she do it?

Cutting, pasting and duck-taping prime bits of evidence to fit her chosen verdict.
Asking the wrong questions.
Giving the wrong answers.
Ignoring inconvenient questions altogether.
Willfully misinterpreting and misrepresenting the law.
And last, but not least, putting State’s damning evidence through a wood chipper.

But hey, she assured us her ruling was “balanced”, right?
What self-serving, toxic crud.

This is exactly why Masipa’s verdict is such a biased, flat-out fraud. She never once addressed the fact that NEVER was OP attacked nor was there ever any remote hint of an imminent attack. On his own version the door never opened! The only damage that night was to the bedroom door, the bathroom/toilet and Reeva. Oscar - not a single scratch or broken fingernail ... yet we are to believe that he was terrified, in fear for his life and too damn scared to even turn on a light. It simply defies all common sense.

This aspect of the SA gun law - attack as it relates to lawful self-defense - is clear and unambiguous. Self-defense requires actual or imminent ATTACK. Such a defense to a charge of murder would have no reason to exist without this one essential catalyst.

A closed, locked door = zero threat.
How can one claim “self-defense” against a stationary, inanimate object?
How can one even claim to mistakenly perceive such?
There’s simply nothing to “perceive” as nothing happened ... except in OP’s devious, storytelling mind.
The idea that his scenario involved any element of “self-defense” is ridiculous beyond reason.
There was literally nothing to defend against!


I don’t understand how this utterly crucial element was all but ignored by Masipa & Co. - its blatant omission reeks of bias, incompetence and/or gross corruption. OP is a trained, licensed gun owner - he KNOWS this backwards and forwards (as per gun dealer/trainer Sean Rens testimony). But, all of a sudden - this one night only - OP “forgets” all his training, “forgets” all the rules and Masipa lets him skate because he’s wailed and howled and puked his guts out in “remorse”?! (Unreliable State witness Dr. Stipp said so!) “Remorse” is cheap - ask a three year old.

What’s the freakin point of gun laws and licenses if one (read: Oscar Pistorius) is simply allowed to pull a Whoops-Sorry-My-Bad-LOL? It’s the worst kind of flagrant mockery of the rule of law; the worst, most unapologetic display of rich man’s justice; it utterly defies even common sense god gave horses and rocks.

If the Appeals Court fails to properly nail OP on dolus eventualis and re-sentence accordingly, we’ll know that SA justice is still corrupt to the rotten core.

Bizarrely the judge did not even go through the multi point test for self defence/private defence

As we discussed about a week ago, I don't think she realised she needed to.

She just skipped straight over to the mistake part.
 
A sidebar to the Bail statement

At least we are getting meaningful law reform in this area in the UK - though it does not go far enough

A suspect, to whom all facts are known, can legitimately be expected to give a complete explanation soon after the event in specific circumstances

After all OP has top counsel advising him, and need only tell the truth.

The fact that key "facts" were withheld and changed says a lot IMO

The six necessary conditions prior to an adverse inference being drawn
The purpose of section 34 is:

(a) to discourage an accused from fabricating a defence late in the day; and
(b) to encourage the accused to make speedy disclosure of any genuine defence or any fact which may go toward establishing a genuine defence. (See R v Roble [1997] Crim LR 449).

In R v Argent [1997] 2 Cr.App.R. 27, Lord Bingham set out the six formal conditions that must be satisfied before an adverse inference can be drawn:

There must be proceedings against a person for an offence;
The alleged failure to mention a fact at trial must have occurred before charge, or on charge;
The alleged failure must have occurred during questioning under caution. (Refer to Archbold 15-484 to 15-486 on the question of when a suspect should be cautioned.);
The questioning must have been directed to trying to discover whether or by whom the alleged offence was committed;
The alleged failure of the accused must have been to mention any fact relied on in his defence in those proceedings;
The alleged failure must have been to mention a fact which in the circumstances existing at the time the accused could reasonably have been expected to mention when so questioned.
"In the circumstances" has been construed to include, when relevant, time of day, defendant's age, experience, mental capacity, state of health, sobriety, tiredness, knowledge, personality and legal advise might all be relevant. R v Howell [2003] Crim.L.R. 405.

It's interesting when you read the bail statement again, how many critical facts are incorrect or missing.

Personally I think it is crazy that OP can rely on these "facts" later, without making an accurate statement on the first day

Indeed it is precisely this approach that enabled him to manufacture his bail statement which is missing all the key information like whether reeva was awake, timings etc.

Indeed in this version he "screams" at Reeva to call the police - later changed to whispers, later changed to tells her in a low voice.

It is hard to take this nonsense seriously.

But needless to say, there is nothing in there about

1. Staying in the room, instead of going on the balcony
2. Reeva being awake
3. moving two fans
4. The blue light
5. The noise of the toilet door closing
6. Protracted screaming while approaching the toilet
7. The extended search for Reeva
8. Screaming after he shot Reeva
9. The approx time before he broke in to the toilet
10. How many cricket bat hits he used
11. Turning off the alarm

Indeed if you read it - there is little real information at all.
 
The issue with the balcony is more to do with not being able to hear a noise from the bathroom, I think.

If he went out into the balcony then he necessarily had to turn round and come back into the room. The first thing he would see doing that is the bed....and with the light from the balcony on, and the curtains parted enough for him to get through it would be literally impossible for him not to notice that the bed was empty.

He had to construct a narrative that had his back to the bed the whole time...going out onto the balcony then coming in again did not fit that. That's why it was changed, imo.

Question is...............changed by who?
Roux seemingly is defending to ensure his client gets a fair trial ( as someone on here ,Jj I think,pointed out to me ages ago)whether he thinks his client is guilty or not.
Everything I've seen in this trial suggests,to me,that the defence team are a set of lying cheats manipulating the evidence and testimonies to suit their client and get him acquitted.
No way could OP have come up with all these scenarios and defences on his own..............no way.
He's been coached by the defence which makes them just as responsible in my eyes.

Roux knows OP shot through the door at Reeva as does all of the defence team and OP's family and I just hope he and they can live with that thought for the rest of their natch..................you too Carice.
Happy dreams to all.
 
.

I've given this some thought.

I'm confident that I could think that fast - if driven by immediate terror at the consequences of my actions.

Maybe it's self-preservation? As in Derman's example of an attacking polar bear giving me (and the bear) an adrenalin rush that focused everything in my mind like a laser beam.

More than knowing much about world politics, geography, and philosophy, etc., I think that OP is very, very practiced (years and years, in fact) at quickly and convincingly saving/covering his own a$$. In fact, I'd say he has an (honorary) doctorate in it.

My son had a friend (ugh) who was half a bubble off plumb but on a moment's notice she could recite every Justin Bieber lyric of every song JB ever sang and was ever going to sing (while applying mascara with her toes as she sped down the expressway on her way to work).

I didn't bother responding to the original post as I thought it was 'oddly amusing' but you are quite right. In SA if there are two criminal actions of note they have to be shoot an intruder (likely to only get you CH and possibly without any jail time) and framing the police (bound to get you off). Both situations OP would have been very aware of from the get-go. His alibi of course took longer. In fact he had many days to come up with something convincing and then got it wrong and blamed his DT to boot.
 
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