Discussion Thread #60 - 14.9.12 ~ the appeal~

[AJ_DS]

This case becomes more and more peculiar:

1. First, Masipa, arbitrary as ever, refuses leave on the possession charge, but grants leave on eventualis.
2. Then, the State, surprisingly, doesn't appeal the refusal on the possession point, and waits till the eleventh hour to lodge the Appeal papers.
3. Next, the Defence, also at the eleventh hour, lodges an application for the same judge to adjudicate on exactly the same point it pleaded at the last hearing: see paras 1,2 and 3 of the Defence's Reply to the State's application for Leave to Appeal:

https://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/oscar-pistorius-response-to-state-appeal-on-sentence-2.pdf

The application for leave on the possession charge was practically a sure thing. In other words, not only is opinion almost unanimous that Masipa misapplied the law to the facts, but, also, no way could the Defence have argued that her decision was a question of fact.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but I'm beginning to feel that maybe Shane13 who used to post here was right when he said, 'This one runs deep...'

I agree… something smells fishy

After the verdict the smell seemed to originate from Masipa and the assessors… but once the dust settled I started seeing strange things in Nel's strategy… things that did not make any sense.

I too am not a conspiracy nut, but…………

 

[L2L]

And this application for leave to appeal of an application for leave to appeal goes back to Judge Masipa for another decision? And does the prosecution then get a chance to argue why Masipa should reject this leave to appeal of an application for leave to appeal?

 

[AJ_DS]

And this application for leave to appeal of an application for leave to appeal goes back to Judge Masipa for another decision? And does the prosecution then get a chance to argue why Masipa should reject this leave to appeal of an application for leave to appeal?

LOL…

Roux will attempt to convince Masipa she was mistaken in her belief that she may have been mistaken in OP's verdict.

Masipa's confusion will surely reach new heights !!

As for it all going back in front of Masipa for a decision is utterly ridiculous… a Mickey Mouse legal system !!

Is this not akin to letting the Defence get a second bite at the apple ?… they already pleaded against the leave to appeal in front of Masipa and their arguments were rejected !

What does the Defence plan to use now : "Please"… "Pretty please"… "Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top" ?…

… or has Masipa discreetly received another thick nondescript manila envelope ?

Basically one can bribe the Judge to deliberately misinterpret the facts but as long as the interpretation of the Law is correctly applied to misinterpreted facts, the verdict cannot be appealed.

If one has not gotten his bribe money's worth on the verdict because an error in Law slipped by the Judge, one can further bride the same Judge as he will decide if the application for leave to appeal the verdict is granted or not.

If one still has not gotten his bribe money's worth on the decision for leave to appeal, one can again further bribe the same Judge as he will decide if the application for leave to appeal the decision to grant the application for leave to appeal the verdict is granted or not.

I doubt one would be able to design a more efficient legal system that simultaneously allows a maximum opportunity for corruption whilst maintaining the illusion of a sound administration of Justice.

 

[L2L]

LOL…

Roux will attempt to convince Masipa she was mistaken in her belief that she may have been mistaken in OP's verdict.

Masipa's confusion will surely reach new heights !!

As for it all going back in front of Masipa for a decision is utterly ridiculous… a Mickey Mouse legal system !!

Is this not akin to letting the Defence get a second bite at the apple ?… they already pleaded against the leave to appeal in front of Masipa and their arguments were rejected !

What does the Defence plan to use now : "Please"… "Pretty please"… "Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top" ?…

… or has Masipa discreetly received another thick nondescript manila envelope ?

Basically one can bribe the Judge to deliberately misinterpret the facts but as long as the interpretation of the Law is correctly applied to misinterpreted facts, the verdict cannot be appealed.

If one has not gotten his bribe money's worth on the verdict because an error in Law slipped by the Judge, one can further bride the same Judge as he will decide if the application for leave to appeal the verdict is granted or not.

If one still has not gotten his bribe money's worth on the decision for leave to appeal, one can again further bribe the same Judge as he will decide if the application for leave to appeal the decision to grant the application for leave to appeal the verdict is granted or not.

I doubt one would be able to design a more efficient legal system that simultaneously allows a maximum opportunity for corruption whilst maintaining the illusion of a sound administration of Justice.

Hope Masipa isn't as confused as I am when she hears the appeal of the application to appeal

I can't help but wonder if both sides and judge knew, from the very start, that this was the way the trial would go? Hope they televise the appeal of the application to appeal. Very strange no matter how you look at it! What new proof could Roux bring? Surely Masipa wouldn't reverse her first ruling? Makes her look pretty incompetent if she did!

 

[Mr Fossil]

An extract from Mlambo's Judgement on 25 February 2014 granting media rights to broadcast the trial:

Moreover, in a country like ours where democracy is still somewhat young and the perceptions that continue to persist in the larger section of South African society, particularly those who are poor and who have found it difficult to access the justice system, that they should have a first-hand account of the proceedings involving a local and international icon. I have taken judicial notice of the fact that part of the perception that I allude to is the fact that the justice system is still perceived as treating the rich and famous with kid gloves whilst being harsh on the poor and vulnerable. Enabling a larger South African society to follow first-hand the criminal proceedings which involve a celebrity, so to speak, will go a long way into dispelling these negative and unfounded perceptions about the justice system, and will inform and educate society regarding the conduct of criminal proceedings.

From Application for broadcast permission of criminal trial

This trial is certainly demonstrating that, in this case at least, the rich and famous are treated differently. Firstly we had disappearing evidence (the phone that was taken and tampered with) and the alleged deal to save Carl from prosecution (it wouldn't surprise me if there was more to this). Now, is there any precedent for what is happening here, appealing a High Court granting an application to appeal? No normal person could hope to afford this level of defence. Isn't it also in danger of making a mockery of the SA judicial system? If you have the means, is no decision sacred until the Constitutional Court has ultimately ruled? Masipa should deny this IMO.

David Dadic ‏@DavidDadic 18h18 hours ago
One thing's for sure, when it's done, after constitutional court probably,they may as well give out law degrees ad hoc from all we've learnt

 

[james83]

So to some up, pretty much everyone on both side's seem to think that Masipa hasn't got a clue.

 

[screecher]

Yeppers ^

 

[Jake18]

This article from the guardian implies that the SCA will still be hearing the case, whatever the outcome of this leave to appeal the leave to appeal (lol).

I wonder if this has ever been done before? Seems to me as though the DT are going back to basics and trying to influence the Judge they feel they'll have the best chance with. For whatever reason.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-court-march-fight-appeal-manslaughter-murder

 

[james83]

Even today i still keep finding holes in his story

"I can't stand still on my stumps. I seldom have time when I'm not wearing my prosthetic legs... I don't have very good balance," he said in response to questioning from his lawyer Barry Roux.

I just froze, I heard this noise, I interpreted it as someone climbing into the bathoom.

Can't balance on stumps at the best of times, but yet in the pitch black no problem.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Yesterday Barry Bateman tweeted:

#OscarPistorius wants to appeal the state’s permission to appeal. Matter to be heard on 16 March at High Court in Joburg. BB

However ...

The NPA has received notice that Oscar Pistorius's lawyers will contest the court decision allowing the State to appeal his culpable homicide conviction.

“They have received the notice with the given date of March 13,” National Prosecuting Authority spokesman Velekhaya Mgobhozi said on Wednesday".

“The NPA will be in court on March 13.”

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/npa-receives-oscar-appeal-notice-1.1823349#.VO2pvqT9nBw

 

[Colin de France]

So to some up, pretty much everyone on both side's seem to think that Masipa hasn't got a clue.

....understatement .....

 

[soozieqtips]

Even today i still keep finding holes in his story

"I can't stand still on my stumps. I seldom have time when I'm not wearing my prosthetic legs... I don't have very good balance," he said in response to questioning from his lawyer Barry Roux.

I just froze, I heard this noise, I interpreted it as someone climbing into the bathoom.

Can't balance on stumps at the best of times, but yet in the pitch black no problem.

He did an awful lot of things in the dark without tripping over anything!

 

[GR_Turner]

This article from the guardian implies that the SCA will still be hearing the case, whatever the outcome of this leave to appeal the leave to appeal (lol).

I wonder if this has ever been done before? Seems to me as though the DT are going back to basics and trying to influence the Judge they feel they'll have the best chance with. For whatever reason.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-court-march-fight-appeal-manslaughter-murder

It was always going to the SCA. This must be about Oscar's status when he applies for home release this year imo. If he has an appeal ongoing that could increase his sentence they may keep him in prison, against the clear intentions of the trial judge. But if the defense overturn Judge Masipa's permission to appeal judgement then the State must appeal direct to the SCA which I guess will take them till next year. So it's not about trying to avoid it getting to the SCA it's about how long Oscar spends in prison waiting for the State to get the appeal to court imo. Note that his has happened just after the State took a day shy of the limit to put in their appeal documents.

 

[AJ_DS]

Even today i still keep finding holes in his story

"I can't stand still on my stumps. I seldom have time when I'm not wearing my prosthetic legs... I don't have very good balance," he said in response to questioning from his lawyer Barry Roux.

I just froze, I heard this noise, I interpreted it as someone climbing into the bathoom.

Can't balance on stumps at the best of times, but yet in the pitch black no problem.

All this was specifically addressed :

- The open balcony door provided OP the opportunity to get out of bed

- The big fan provided balance as OP moved it... he steadied himself by using it as a cane

- The location of the big fan in relation to the bed provided Reeva the opportunity to leave the bedroom unseen

- The noise of the big fan provided Reeva the opportunity to leave the bedroom unheard

- The open balcony curtains provided OP the opportunity to see what he was doing

- The balcony curtains provided balance as OP closed them

- The closed balcony curtains provided OP the opportunity not to notice Reeva was no longer in bed

- The annoying LED stereo light provided OP the opportunity not to return in bed

… all seemingly cogent and reasonable explanations as someone has obviously given these matters a lot of thought and rehearsed them thoroughly.


However, some things have not been addressed nor given much thought :

- Reeva is very much aware OP is paranoid about sleeping with open/unlocked doors/windows

- OP asks Reeva to close the balcony doors before falling asleep

- Reeva fails to do what OP had asked her to do

- Reeva sees OP going to all the trouble of getting out of bed at 3AM to close the balcony doors himself

- Very first thing Reeva does after getting out of bed is to open the bathroom window

… Why would Reeva purposefully countermand OP's will and actions ???

 

[AJ_DS]

Hope Masipa isn't as confused as I am when she hears the appeal of the application to appeal

I can't help but wonder if both sides and judge knew, from the very start, that this was the way the trial would go? Hope they televise the appeal of the application to appeal. Very strange no matter how you look at it! What new proof could Roux bring? Surely Masipa wouldn't reverse her first ruling? Makes her look pretty incompetent if she did!

If Masipa grants the application she is NOT reversing her first ruling…

Roux pleaded that Nel was incorrect and therefore Masipa should not grant the application to appeal the verdict

Now Roux will plead Masipa was incorrect in granting the application to appeal the verdict and therefore should grant the application to appeal that decision... so that a higher Court may explore and decide whether she made a mistake or not.

If Masipa grants the application, she will be, for all intents and purposes, transferring responsibility for the verdict to a higher Court.

I suspect Masipa will grant Roux's application.

 

[james83]

All this was specifically addressed :

- The open balcony door provided OP the opportunity to get out of bed

- The big fan provided balance as OP moved it... he steadied himself by using it as a cane

- The location of the big fan in relation to the bed provided Reeva the opportunity to leave the bedroom unseen

- The noise of the big fan provided Reeva the opportunity to leave the bedroom unheard

- The open balcony curtains provided OP the opportunity to see what he was doing

- The balcony curtains provided balance as OP closed them

- The closed balcony curtains provided OP the opportunity not to notice Reeva was no longer in bed

- The annoying LED stereo light provided OP the opportunity not to return in bed

… all seemingly cogent and reasonable explanations as someone has obviously given these matters a lot of thought and rehearsed them thoroughly.


However, some things have not been addressed nor given much thought :

- Reeva is very much aware OP is paranoid about sleeping with open/unlocked doors/windows

- OP asks Reeva to close the balcony doors before falling asleep

- Reeva fails to do what OP had asked her to do

- Reeva sees OP going to all the trouble of getting out of bed at 3AM to close the balcony doors himself

- Very first thing Reeva does after getting out of bed is to open the bathroom window

… Why would Reeva purposefully countermand OP's will and actions ???

The moment he supposedly froze was after picking up the jeans, if he has trouble balancing at the best of times it is very difficult to believe he would be able to balance with the apparent terror he felt at that moment.

Yes i've always had trouble believing an able bodied person would
(a) Not assist a severely disabled man in bringing the fans in etc
(b) At the very least help him out by turning the light on when she got up.

 

[AJ_DS]

The moment he supposedly froze was after picking up the jeans, if he has trouble balancing at the best of times it is very difficult to believe he would be able to balance with the apparent terror he felt at that moment.

Yes i've always had trouble believing an able bodied person would
(a) Not assist a severely disabled man in bringing the fans in etc
(b) At the very least help him out by turning the light on when she got up.

Indeed.

The fact none of these issues were addressed by the Defence is because the only person who could possibly offer an explanation cannot do so anymore… all that remains is speculation… therefore it cannot be a potential source of challenge or contradiction to OP's version of events.

 

[james83]

Indeed.

The fact none of these issues were addressed by the Defence is because the only person who could possibly offer an explanation cannot do so anymore… all that remains is speculation… therefore it cannot be a potential source of challenge or contradiction to OP's version of events.

And that is why this case will forever mess with the mind's of those(me included) who believe that he knew exactly who was behind that door, seriously frustrating not knowing every detail of the real truth, honestly this and the Madeleine Mccann case will drive me insane one day.

 

[AJ_DS]

And that is why this case will forever mess with the mind's of those(me included) who believe that he knew exactly who was behind that door, seriously frustrating not knowing every detail of the real truth, honestly this and the Madeleine Mccann case will drive me insane one day.

I agree… but not being able to know the real truth is far less frustrating than realizing that no meaningful effort was made to uncovered said truth.

E.g.

- Mac notebook seized in OP's house ?
- Reeva's uninterrupted internet connections ?
- Detailed phone billing of Stipp, Johnson and van der Merwe ?
- State timeline ?
- Metal tub panel ?
- etc...

… not to mention the various irreconcilable conflicts between the State's contentions and the way the State's case was conducted ?

Much could have been done to successfully disprove OP's version of events… but it simply wasn't done.

 

[Colin de France]

And that is why this case will forever mess with the mind's of those(me included) who believe that he knew exactly who was behind that door, seriously frustrating not knowing every detail of the real truth, honestly this and the Madeleine Mccann case will drive me insane one day.

...i agree but i have the impression that the awnser is there before us but we can't see it ....