Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #2

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Have to admit usually Websleuths is my "go too" on all cases but the theories being thrown out here have me scratching my head at the moment , I also see people that in my eyes are bringing up some great points being completely slammed down.
The amount of juggling people are doing to clear Avery is mental to me. I've even seen comments actually blaming the murder on the LE ...whatever about the planting but the murder ?! People actually believe the LE murdered this girl to lock lil Stevie up .....It's all getting a lil too silly too me . MOO

People can not really believe that LE murdered this girl. IF they do they need more help than a forum will give them. The most I have seen from reasonable thinkers is that some believe it was a frame job with evidence. Not that the police murdered her to put him away.

The hardest part for me about these kind of cases is when people take them from reasonable on both sides to far out.

 

[norest4thewicked]

As a former research science I like to only look at the facts. And regardless of actual guilt, the fact is things were handled completely wrong during several aspects of this case. That rubs me the wrong way. If anything, SA should have been subjected to an investigation that was done more carefully then most. Tunnel vision on a crime is never a good thing, and even if he did do this, the tactics used by LE were dreadful.

I personally believe it was done by two people who lived on that property, and they just lucked out with cops only looking at SA. Several things make no sense to me. Mainly, the key and lack of DNA. Also, why the car was so poorly hidden. He had time to do a better job of hiding/disposing of it. I also think the autotrader magazine, and bill of sale being put up is a very strong indicator that TH's appointment went normally.

So...your response means that you would not JUST look at the Netflix film to make your decision on whether he is guilty or not?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

I too wonder if all the cars on the property were thoroughly searched. There was a cadaver dog brought out correct? She could have still been held in a car. That is one thing I have wondered about. Could she have finished taking pictures, handed SA the magazine and BOS then he said, hey I actually have another car over here I need pictures of...then lead her deeper into the salvage yard? But then I question how he could have been so nonchalantly talking with Jodi that evening. Even bringing up to phone call to BD. That seems like a normal thing to talk about on a normal day. If you just murdered someone do you really stand around talking about your phone calls that day while burning a body?

To me anyone who could kill a girl like that could behave how ever they had to get away with it. How many killers inject themselves concerned.. And who knows what the girlfriend really heard. She could be saying that now but was she really paying attention or looking back with the eyes of someone who could not believe her man would do something like that?

If it was say a gas attendant or a random person who he talked to, I would take it at a fuller weight.

 

[Juan23]

I too wonder if all the cars on the property were thoroughly searched. There was a cadaver dog brought out correct? She could have still been held in a car. That is one thing I have wondered about. Could she have finished taking pictures, handed SA the magazine and BOS then he said, hey I actually have another car over here I need pictures of...then lead her deeper into the salvage yard? But then I question how he could have been so nonchalantly talking with Jodi that evening. Even bringing up to phone call to BD. That seems like a normal thing to talk about on a normal day. If you just murdered someone do you really stand around talking about your phone calls that day while burning a body?

I know that they at least searched some of the cars because they supposedly found the missing Rav4 plates in one of them.

 

[TheDuchess]

http://mobile.onmilwaukee.com/movies/articles/averyplotunravels.html

OMG not even sure where to go with this. Talk about mental calisthenics to make a case! I have to run, but I'll tackle this a bit later, or someone else can.

 

[Dogface]

So...your response means that you would not JUST look at the Netflix film to make your decision on whether he is guilty or not?

No, and I'm not sure why that was even assumed in your other reply. My first post saying I wanted to watch the series again more carefully and research it meant that I wanted to see what each and every significant point(to me at least) was and independently look for more information on it. I have read the original TH thread, and every post on the documentary. I'm just slower than a lot of y'all at researching and I have to do it very methodically for myself to remember all the facts.

I have said several times I'm not certain one way or the other, I'm not sure how anyone could feel certain about his guilt. The only thing I'm certain on is there were major screw ups by LE and they also wore very large blinders.

My emotional, not fact based, opinion, or just my gut reaction upon the first viewing of the documentary is that SA was almost in disbelief about what was happening. When his lawyer was bringing up solid points that should have IMO created reasonable doubt SA looked to me like he had so much hope and faith that people would see he was innocent. But my gut has been wrong before so I take that with a grain of salt while looking for facts.

 

[TheDuchess]

So...your response means that you would not JUST look at the Netflix film to make your decision on whether he is guilty or not?

Why do you keep insisting that people are basing all of their opinions on ONLY the documentary??? I see no one on this forum who isn't discussing and considering a lot of information from a lot of different sources, including the trial transcripts, news reports, etc...

However, I do have a problem with someone who is capable of completely disregarding the previous false imprisonment of this man as if it couldn't possibly be of any relevance in this case.

 

[Sleuther87]

Yes. The truth is he did 12 yrs for a crime he did not commit. Is 12 a whole lot better than 18? Maybe, maybe not, but the 18 yr phrase needs to be dropped.

On that note, I believe he was sentenced to 10 years (or at least he could've been) on the gun charges, no?

Is anyone denying the gun charges?

 

[Dogface]

Yes! Duh me! I literally have to write things down to really commit them 100% and haven't had time to do that with this case all that much. Thank you. So we do know at least some of the cars were searched.

 

[Soulmagent]

I have not seen this before but I might of missed it in Brendan transcripts ,but does anyone know which tooth is was they found of TH's? And from which location it came from ?

 

[GigiG]

I'd like to discuss for a moment the salvage yard property. It is a peculiar place in this situation as that it happens to be both a public, as well as a private place for several people. From what I understand, there are at least 4-5 private residences occupied by at least 10 different people, if not more. That said, it is also a public place in that it is a business. People come in and out on a regular basis for several business purposes throughout each day. There is a lot going on there. So it makes things a bit difficult to treat one separate from the other.

In other words, while both Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey's private residences are within the confines of the salvage yard, the salvage yard itself is actually quite open to the public. From what I understand there are several entrances in and out of the yard without a lot of security in place. I see no evidence of guard dogs, electric fences, locked gates, video surveillance, etc... It's a junkyard. Not a lot of people looking to rummage through someone's junkyard, but I suppose it could happen.

So it makes a lot of what could have possibly taken place within that property very difficult to ascertain with any degree of certainty, in my opinion. I remember SA mentioning I think to NG that he saw headlights in the junkyard one night prior to the report of her going missing and right around the time of mysterious phone call from Colburn calling in the plates. Just one thought.

Add to that the recognition of SA within the community. I wonder if there had been lookeyloos hanging around the property, both from the general public as well as within and surrounding the LE community. It wouldn't be surprising to learn that SA was under constant surveillance just waiting for him to trip up.

But whatever the case, I just think it is an interesting note that in most cases we have a private residence OR a public place and in this case, we have BOTH combined. Just helps muddy the waters even more.

What a great observation -- thanks for pointing it out!

I'm sure things vary by location, but around here, with most auto salvage yards, people looking to buy certain auto parts go in there themselves. I believe there might be some kind of basic grid/inventory of vehicles to help locate specific cars, but for the most part, people scour the grounds on their own, find the part they're looking for, remove it themselves (with their own tools), and take it to the office to pay for it.

I think you can also pay extra to have them remove it for you, but most of my knowledge comes from what I've been told by auto mechanics and old car aficionados who do their own work and are hands-on about the used parts they buy.

 

[MaxManning]

I have learned over time that I don't have to know exactly what happened to know someone did it.
I still am not sure the order of events in Travis's Killing but I know that JA killed him. Granted she left more obvious evidence but I still see evidence here that points to him.

I know that he called her to come there. That he tried to cover his number.. He calls her saying.. Where are you aren't you coming??? and yet he goes on national tv and says he saw her that day.
He is covering because he killed her. Her bones are found there, her car is found there..

I believe he killed her. I don't need all the details in a box to think that. I have learned over the years there are some things you never get to know.

But would you agree that law enforcement and the state has an obligation to investigate leads that are highly suspicious, just to have a fair trial and be sure we got the right guy ?

Would you want that, if that was you on trial for murder ?

What you mentioned are things that I put alot of weight on personally, and have taken heat for stating the same things.


But even I can admit that there is reasonable doubt given the investigation that had tunnel vision on Avery and excluded so many other credible leads.

We know it's fact that in his rape conviction they excluded the guy who did it, even though other law enforcement bodies were saying "we believe this is other guy did it, you need to look at him". Law enforcement purposefully decided to exclude that suspect. -- are you ok with that ?

So, yes, we all have our gut feelings and see the evidence. But shouldn't we be fair ? It's not avery's fault that now an investigation of law enforcement's handling of this case is likely the only way we ever see a real investigation.

Avery is playing his best card, which is that law enforcement is biased. There's alot of evidence to that effect. Who's fault is that ?

 

[Really?]

Yes - 6 years for the assault on his cousin that started the whole ball rolling. But I would imagine that sentence would have likely been far less without the other case, but just my opinion.

Ya, and if he really wanted to kill someone and go back to prison so bad it would have been her he did in. moo

 

[MaxManning]

OMG not even sure where to go with this. Talk about mental calisthenics to make a case! I have to run, but I'll tackle this a bit later, or someone else can.

Agreed, I find it funny that he seems to suggest that occam's razor is something that supports the dassey confession(s) being accurate.

But there is no doubt in my mind that Occam's Razor needs to just slice 99.9% of what Brendan said out, before you even get close to being on the right track.

 

[MaxManning]

People can not really believe that LE murdered this girl. IF they do they need more help than a forum will give them. The most I have seen from reasonable thinkers is that some believe it was a frame job with evidence. Not that the police murdered her to put him away.

The hardest part for me about these kind of cases is when people take them from reasonable on both sides to far out.

amen.

I honestly don't believe that there is any possibility that law enforcement killed TH. Tin Foil hat territory imo

 

[SCHMAE]

I too wonder if all the cars on the property were thoroughly searched. There was a cadaver dog brought out correct? She could have still been held in a car. That is one thing I have wondered about. Could she have finished taking pictures, handed SA the magazine and BOS then he said, hey I actually have another car over here I need pictures of...then lead her deeper into the salvage yard? But then I question how he could have been so nonchalantly talking with Jodi that evening. Even bringing up to phone call to BD. That seems like a normal thing to talk about on a normal day. If you just murdered someone do you really stand around talking about your phone calls that day while burning a body?

The non chalantly talking with Jodi doesn't concern me. We saw his videos and his interviews. If he is guilty of killing Teresa, he is a total sociopath with a poker face, so that would mean he has no conscious so he could talk to anyone right after the fact and not be flustered. I think some want to get hung up on the fact that he's so innocent appearing and talking and etc., but a sociopath does just that. Cool, calculated and not afraid of getting caught. So we'll see. I do hope we'll know one way or the other about his innocence or guilt but I have a feeling here is a story that will NOT be a big deal a month from now and keep bumbling along at this pace and we will never ' know the truth' unless SA confesses or unless another person who did the crime confesses. This is all for naught !

 

[GigiG]

http://podbay.fm/show/338560456/e/1452186958?autostart=1

Found this podcast and thought it was interesting as it is from a defense attorney giving his opinions on things.

Thanks for this link! This defense attorney is really interesting. I'm going to give the podcast another listen when I have a chance.

Whichever side of the Avery case you tend towards, I think you'll find his insights fascinating. Well worth the listen!

 

[JanIreland]

"Whatever about the planting" ? Wow.
It's about reasonable doubt. If you think Steven and Brendan are where they should be, then you think the ends justifies the means?

are you for real ? you got that from what I said ?? maybe it was lost in translation , I'm Irish and "whatever about the planting" meant I understand the planting evidence is strong but too blame the murder on the LE is cuckoo ....hope that clears it up for you

 

[Dogface]

The non chalantly talking with Jodi doesn't concern me. We saw his videos and his interviews. If he is guilty of killing Teresa, he is a total sociopath with a poker face, so that would mean he has no conscious so he could talk to anyone right after the fact and not be flustered. I think some want to get hung up on the fact that he's so innocent appearing and talking and etc., but a sociopath does just that. Cool, calculated and not afraid of getting caught. So we'll see. I do hope we'll know one way or the other about his innocence or guilt but I have a feeling here is a story that will NOT be a big deal a month from now and keep bumbling along at this pace and we will never ' know the truth' unless SA confesses or unless another person who did the crime confesses. This is all for naught !

Yes you are correct on that. Someone who is a true sociopath is a scary thing, a wolf in sheeps clothing. But more than just talking normally to Jodi, the fact he supposedly told BD about his phone call with her while at the bonfire struck me as 1. Truthful 2. Normal.

 

[shadowraiths]

I've never quite understood the mentality/thought process of many, many LE investigators.
Why wouldn't you want something--anything--that can be substantiated as fact allowed into an investigation?
Isn't the whole point to find the actual person, not just any person, who could have committed the crime
Do they actually care/not care if they help convict an innocent person?
Is their mentality just to get a conviction if the suspect shows opportunity and motive?

It never ceases to amaze me the number of times I've heard a detective state::

"We are so disappointed the DNA evidence proves without a doubt he isn't our guy. We really thought he did it".

Why are they disappointed?
They actually would've been happy if they could've got a guilty verdict on someone who is completely innocent?

Oh, that's an easy one. It takes a great deal of time and investigative work to bring someone they think "did it" to trial. If it turns out they'd fingered the wrong person, that means they must start the process all over again. This is why so many cases go unsolved (iirc, 40% is the national average). If they are able to get a conviction, they can bring closure to the victim's family, and society, at large, and close that case.

In other words, it's not about wanting an innocent person to go to jail. It's about solving the crime.

That said, while this case shines a light on questionable LEO and defense atty (i.e., len kachinsky) behavior, I am of the opinion that these types of cases are the exception and not the rule. I would argue the high number of unsolved cases supports my contention.