Bones

[Jaiddie]

So someone goes sneaky around on the Avery property (potentially in the middle of the night) with a big german shepard---and the dog doesn't bark and wake everyone up or at least 1 person? That person who supposedly planted her bones is his fire pit--had to be less than 500 -100 feet from his house and his dog didn't wake up? I find that really hard to believe..Unless...it was someone the dog was familiar with--but--even then I think the dog would have barked...and in one of their interviews--they would have mentioned the dog barking--just like they did about seeing tail lights/lights.

First of all, I would like to see some pictures of those bones in the burn pit as they supposedly found them. Guess what? I can't because no such pictures exist. I have never heard of an investigation where evidence was not photographed as it is found except in this case. (Maybe there is another instance of this, but this was the first time it has been drawn to my attention.) The police also had that property on lockdown for 8 days without allowing the owners or anybody from the family who lived there to be present. That is ample time for those bones to be planted. So the dog could have been gone by the time they were placed there.

 

[Amber29]

First of all, I would like to see some pictures of those bones in the burn pit as they supposedly found them. Guess what? I can't because no such pictures exist. I have never heard of an investigation where evidence was not photographed as it is found except in this case. (Maybe there is another instance of this, but this was the first time it has been drawn to my attention.) The police also had that property on lockdown for 8 days without allowing the owners or anybody from the family who lived there to be present. That is ample time for those bones to be planted. So the dog could have been gone by the time they were placed there.

BBM
I thought it was testified to that the bones were intertwined or connected to the steel belts from the tires. Meaning proof that the bones were burned at the same time as the tires. If it's true that some of the bones had to be separated from the steel, I just don't see how plating them later in the burn pile works. As that would mean her remains were planted there before SA lit his burn pile.

 

[missy1974]

BBM
I thought it was testified to that the bones were intertwined or connected to the steel belts from the tires. Meaning proof that the bones were burned at the same time as the tires. If it's true that some of the bones had to be separated from the steel, I just don't see how plating them later in the burn pile works. As that would mean her remains were planted there before SA lit his burn pile.

there was no proof.
Prosecution witness testimony

DAY 18 page 60-61
A. That's correct. They were entwined in there to the point where I actually had to physically, so to speak, separate and try to recover. They weren't right on the surface easily removed. But they were into the depth of the wire at times.

Q. And you can think of possibilities of how that might have happened, one would be that a body had been atop a -- an intact tire at the time that both were burned?

A. That's one possibility.

Q. That's one possibility. Another possibility would be that the tires already had been burned at some earlier time and a body was atop that layer? That's the second possibility?

A. That's a possibility.

Q. A third possibility would be that bone fragments,after the body was burned, not on top of the wires, bone fragments could have been moved into the wires or tossed into the wires, somehow disturbed, so that they were introduced into the wire mesh you have described?

A. That's a possibility, yes.

Q. And we probably could go on, but the reality is, you can't narrow down to any one of the possibilities we could identify?

A. That's correct.

 

[Sustained]

BBM
I thought it was testified to that the bones were intertwined or connected to the steel belts from the tires. Meaning proof that the bones were burned at the same time as the tires. If it's true that some of the bones had to be separated from the steel, I just don't see how plating them later in the burn pile works. As that would mean her remains were planted there before SA lit his burn pile.

And how do we know those particular steel-belted tires were burned in the pit next to Avery's house ?

 

[Amber29]

there was no proof.
Prosecution witness testimony

DAY 18 page 60-61
A. That's correct. They were entwined in there to the point where I actually had to physically, so to speak, separate and try to recover. They weren't right on the surface easily removed. But they were into the depth of the wire at times.

Q. And you can think of possibilities of how that might have happened, one would be that a body had been atop a -- an intact tire at the time that both were burned?

A. That's one possibility.

Q. That's one possibility. Another possibility would be that the tires already had been burned at some earlier time and a body was atop that layer? That's the second possibility?

A. That's a possibility.

Q. A third possibility would be that bone fragments,after the body was burned, not on top of the wires, bone fragments could have been moved into the wires or tossed into the wires, somehow disturbed, so that they were introduced into the wire mesh you have described?

A. That's a possibility, yes.

Q. And we probably could go on, but the reality is, you can't narrow down to any one of the possibilities we could identify?

A. That's correct.

No proof of what? The testimony was some of the bones had to be physically seperated from the steel. Sure that witness can't testify how exactly that happened, but it doesn't change the way they were found. So if someone planted them in that burn pile, how did they do so? How did they attach some of the bones to steel tire wires and did they dig some of that pile up to put those bones in? That's far fetched to say the least. IMO

 

[missy1974]

I sure wish that coroner would have been let in to do her job when they thought they had human bone fragments..... or the arson investigator was called in before they dug it all up and moved it to the crime lab.... or a forensic anthropologist was called to come investigate the scene properly.... or the photograph dude had at least come over and taken pictures before they ripped it all up....

 

[missy1974]

BBM
I thought it was testified to that the bones were intertwined or connected to the steel belts from the tires. Meaning proof that the bones were burned at the same time as the tires. If it's true that some of the bones had to be separated from the steel, I just don't see how plating them later in the burn pile works. As that would mean her remains were planted there before SA lit his burn pile.

sorry, maybe I misunderstood what you said Amber.

As for them getting planted there.... I have no clue but I think that there was time and opportunity. October 31st-November 5th, there was no police presence, then Nov 5th -November 7th or 8th when they were found? yep, there was time.

The bones and the firepit are just one more example of what was not investigated properly IMO No photo's of how they found it? They literally dug it up and sent it off? Pretty sure the arson guy wasn't even called in that day.

 

[MysticJynx]

BBM
I thought it was testified to that the bones were intertwined or connected to the steel belts from the tires. Meaning proof that the bones were burned at the same time as the tires. If it's true that some of the bones had to be separated from the steel, I just don't see how plating them later in the burn pile works. As that would mean her remains were planted there before SA lit his burn pile.

Believe it was testified to there were three senerios that could have been why those were mixed into the steel belt tires. Has anyone noticed that these items are not even IN the burn pit they are off to the side. Anyway. The way they got in those belts was either. Body burned under them, Body burned over them. Or someone dumping burnt remains on top of them. All plausible. So why were they not in the burn pit, why were there not pictures of actual bones on the ground in the ashes. in the tire belts. You see far away pictures of the pit the bench and tire belts are off to the side. did he not even burn them into the pit? or could it be possible someone moving the bones in the dark places them where those items are not thinking that their is a screwdriver not burned under the tire wires, the rubber handled hammer close enough to that bench I would think it would have been at least burnt a little, singed or something but no. One of the pictures shows a shovel the dog standing over the actual black fire pit. There was only one shovel in that picture. Come and take another picture of the pit from the other side an wow where did that second shovel come from? None of the evidence pictures are matching states theories and testimonies. It would be no wonder they dont want some on the scene to tell you that where the bones were found on the side of the pit it seems couldnt be the burn area. They didnt know that till the light came up and realized where they dumped them, On the out skirts of the pit. Just think LE was part of it. not the murder but the set up.

 

[pittie_mcclure]

I sure wish that coroner would have been let in to do her job when they thought they had human bone fragments..... or the arson investigator was called in before they dug it all up and moved it to the crime lab.... or a forensic anthropologist was called to come investigate the scene properly.... or the photograph dude had at least come over and taken pictures before they ripped it all up....

Yes. I can't get over how that should have done the best investigation of their lives because of who they thought the suspect was. Instead it seems like they did the opposite.

I have agreed with so much you and others have posted. After watching the docu-series I came here and both those that I agree with and those with whom I disagree have really motivated me to do my research, learn about what wasn't shown -- mainly from all the hard work all of you guys on these forums have done by reading through testimony, evidence etc.) so thanks.

This case is polarizing to say the least. I just don't understand how LE did not investigate some of these things. They left so much hanging.

 

[Sustained]

No proof of what? The testimony was some of the bones had to be physically seperated from the steel. Sure that witness can't testify how exactly that happened, but it doesn't change the way they were found. So if someone planted them in that burn pile, how did they do so? How did they attach some of the bones to steel tire wires and did they dig some of that pile up to put those bones in? That's far fetched to say the least. IMO

Not so far-fetched to think the entire collection of steel tire remnants and some bones were transported from another burn site. Isn't it true that some of TH's bones were found out by the gravel pit ?

 

[Amber29]

Believe it was testified to there were three senerios that could have been why those were mixed into the steel belt tires. Has anyone noticed that these items are not even IN the burn pit they are off to the side. Anyway. The way they got in those belts was either. Body burned under them, Body burned over them. Or someone dumping burnt remains on top of them. All plausible. So why were they not in the burn pit, why were there not pictures of actual bones on the ground in the ashes. in the tire belts. You see far away pictures of the pit the bench and tire belts are off to the side. did he not even burn them into the pit? or could it be possible someone moving the bones in the dark places them where those items are not thinking that their is a screwdriver not burned under the tire wires, the rubber handled hammer close enough to that bench I would think it would have been at least burnt a little, singed or something but no. One of the pictures shows a shovel the dog standing over the actual black fire pit. There was only one shovel in that picture. Come and take another picture of the pit from the other side an wow where did that second shovel come from? None of the evidence pictures are matching states theories and testimonies. It would be no wonder they dont want some on the scene to tell you that where the bones were found on the side of the pit it seems couldnt be the burn area. They didnt know that till the light came up and realized where they dumped them, On the out skirts of the pit. Just think LE was part of it. not the murder but the set up.

Personally I think the mishandling of the scene has more to do with the crime rate in that area and less to do with LE involvement. I just don't think they have enough experience with murder scenes. Its easy to say now what should've, could've, would've been done, but Hindsight is always 20/20. It's just very hard for me to believe in a full blown LE cover up conspiracy. It would involve way too many and the more involved, the more likely in 10years someone would've slipped. It's the same with people discussing the lack of THs DNA on her key. DNA is not just everywhere and it's hard to find, we don't just shed DNA on everything we touch. DNA is great when found on evidence but unfortunately it's not easy to find, hence how many crimes go unsolved.

 

[Amber29]

Not so far-fetched to think the entire collection of steel tire remnants and some bones were transported from another burn site. Isn't it true that some of TH's bones were found out by the gravel pit ?

So the "real killer" burned her with tires, same as SA just happened to be burning in his pile that night? Yes far fetched IMO...

 

[Sustained]

So the "real killer" burned her with tires, same as SA just happened to be burning in his pile that night? Yes far fetched IMO...

If she was initially burned out by the gravel pit by another member of the Avery family, not so far-fetched. Tires are everywhere out there.

 

[Jaiddie]

BBM
I thought it was testified to that the bones were intertwined or connected to the steel belts from the tires. Meaning proof that the bones were burned at the same time as the tires. If it's true that some of the bones had to be separated from the steel, I just don't see how plating them later in the burn pile works. As that would mean her remains were planted there before SA lit his burn pile.

My main question was, Where are the evidence pictures to show any of this? Where are the pictures of the bones found at the quarry too, for that matter? I would think that it is standard procedure to take photographs of a crime scene BEFORE any handling of evidence to show how the evidence was found. To me, the fact that there were NO pics taken of the bones (other than in a box or laid out on a table) as they were found, coupled with the fact that the coroner was not allowed to examine said bones at the start of the investigation screams that there was something fishy in Manitowoc from the beginning.

 

[Rivernh]

And how do we know those particular steel-belted tires were burned in the pit next to Avery's house ?

IMO, the whole investigation into the burn sites was not done well, no photographs before being touched, (that we know of), no forensic expert in recovering this type of evidence, and the county coroner wasn't even allowed on site. I fear that the truth is lost forever, whatever it is....

Edited to add, that I see Jaiddie just basically said the same thing, and I didn't see her post until afterwards

 

[Amber29]

Can someone please post a link to the bones in the quarry being confirmed as TH. I was under the impression that bones found elsewhere weren't proven to be hers but I guess I don't remember it right.

 

[MysticJynx]

Can someone please post a link to the bones in the quarry being confirmed as TH. I was under the impression that bones found elsewhere weren't proven to be hers but I guess I don't remember it right.

I believe that they can say that the bones were all consistent with an adult female. consistency of burning the same on all three locations. But if you are asking if every bone that they found were positively identified by DNA then NO. Think the only DNA that was extracted was from a tooth. Or the most compelling DNA was from the tooth.

 

[Madeleine74]

I believe that they can say that the bones were all consistent with an adult female. consistency of burning the same on all three locations. But if you are asking if every bone that they found were positively identified by DNA then NO. Think the only DNA that was extracted was from a tooth. Or the most compelling DNA was from the tooth.

A tibia bone had some tissue still attached to it and that tissue was DNA tested and came back as a match to TH.

 

[AutumnDawn]

There is some great discussion here....on the topic of the bones..... Who gathered them from the burn site?? Without any pictures from the actual scene...YES I'm skeptical of taking their word for it of what was actually found.....

 

[Amber29]

If in fact the bones in the other locations were TH I actually believe as someone else has said that he may have picked out the larger bone fragments from his burn pile and disgarded them elsewhere. Saying he wouldn't clean so well and leave the bones is not necessarily true either. Perhaps he was dumb enough to think those small fragments wouldn't be identified as bones, so he thought only to remove the larger pieces left he could identify as bones.
I go back to Jodi Arias often but she went through the trouble of deleting photos off the camera instead of just taking the camera with her. Knowing there were incriminating photos on that camera and she could've just taken it with her. She also paid cash for her third gas can fill but kept the receipt! its hard to commit the perfect murder.