Bosma Murder Trial 06.10.16 - Day 59 - Charge to jury

[Oreck]

When the trial began, Goodman told jurors there were two ways to get to first-degree murder. One was if the Crown could prove Bosma was forcibly confined before he was murdered.


Now, after hearing the evidence, the judge has taken that option away.


"You are directed that you shall not conclude or return a verdict of first-degree murder in this case by virtue of any accused person committing an unlawful confinement of Bosma," he instructed jurors.


That leaves just one route to first-degree murder, and that is being satisfied this murder was "planned and deliberate."





Seems odd to me that a judge can say that this part of Canadian law does not apply here.

 

[Just4TB]

What's everyone's guess on how long the jury takes to deliberate?

Given the...
(a) complexity of the case, amount of evidence to weigh
(b) extensive charge to the jury,
(c) fact that both decisions must come together
(d) unanimous required for both convictions

I anticipate the jury having to ask clarification from Justice Goodman many times. I am guessing 7 days minimum, 10 days maximum.
DM, 1/2 day deliberation maximum. MS, 8/12 jurors will be in agreement in 2 days. The balance of 4.5 - 7.5 days will be finding consensus.

 

[canadiangirl]

When the trial began, Goodman told jurors there were two ways to get to first-degree murder. One was if the Crown could prove Bosma was forcibly confined before he was murdered.


Now, after hearing the evidence, the judge has taken that option away.


"You are directed that you shall not conclude or return a verdict of first-degree murder in this case by virtue of any accused person committing an unlawful confinement of Bosma," he instructed jurors.


That leaves just one route to first-degree murder, and that is being satisfied this murder was "planned and deliberate."





Seems odd to me that a judge can say that this part of Canadian law does not apply here.

BBM
We can only speculate this means the crown did not have enough evidence to prove forcible confinement. He did say" if the crown could prove".

 

[Just4TB]

Seems odd to me that a judge can say that this part of Canadian law does not apply here.

Since there was no preliminary inquiry, legal arguments had not been heard at the start of the trial, so the Judge was not aware of what might be successfully argued out of presentation to the jury.
This instruction to the jury, not to consider forcible confinement, is IMO a clue as to what some of the legal arguments successfully argued away. Since the jury was not present during legal arguments, and because the Judge initially did mention forcible confinement, it must now be in his charge to the jury to be excluded. Justice Goodman seems very thorough.
My opinion only...

 

[Oreck]

"

I think that they have such a great deal to consider, and they they will want to do their very best to make such an important decision ... My personal guess is 4-5 days.

How about you? What do you think?

If I were on the jury it would be 5 min. Unless someone slowed me down.

 

[MsSherlock]

"

If I were on the jury it would be 5 min. Unless someone slowed me down.

I'm going to make a bold prediction. IMO, after spending 4 months together, this Jury is probably very much in sync- out of 12, I'll take the logical route and suggest that 50% of them would call 1st degree during the 1st day. I don't believe any of them would even be on the acquittal page going into deliberations. 4 of them will be stuck on 2nd degree and will really need to weigh the premeditation aspect of things and there'll be 2 that may be considering MS's testimony and perhaps manslaughter for him. I'm guessing they'll call on the Judge to clarify a few things for them on Tuesday and when they finish up Tuesday night, 10 will be together with double 1st degree. Wednesday will require another review from the Judge and I'm predicting that they will have reached a verdict of 1st degree murder for both between 2 & 4 on Thursday!! Hows that for an exacting prediction

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

When the trial began, Goodman told jurors there were two ways to get to first-degree murder. One was if the Crown could prove Bosma was forcibly confined before he was murdered.


Now, after hearing the evidence, the judge has taken that option away.


"You are directed that you shall not conclude or return a verdict of first-degree murder in this case by virtue of any accused person committing an unlawful confinement of Bosma," he instructed jurors.


That leaves just one route to first-degree murder, and that is being satisfied this murder was "planned and deliberate."





Seems odd to me that a judge can say that this part of Canadian law does not apply here.

I agree. Hopefully some day the legalities of this will be fully explained.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[canadiangirl]

For everyone saying the decision will be made in 5 mins, or people will quickly hate you if you disagree with others during deliberations, or that you would be pressured, I found this article to be very interesting about jury duty.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/05/22/what_jury_duty_is_really_like.html

 

[swedie]

Well wasn't that much food for thought and a lot to consider from the first day of the judge's instructions today?! IMO it's actually quite simple. "It is not enough for you to find an accused probably or likely guilty." Goodman says. Goodman's take or meaning on guilt is 'as a whole,' not just the shooting itself. Bottom line, they are guilty. Neither have denied they were not present or involved in summary, except MS who denied being in the truck when Tim was murdered. IMO that is the only gliche for me...was MS present when Tim was shot, did he shoot Tim, did he have knowledge Tim was going to be shot? That is answered according to the law...it doesn't matter WHO, they are equally responsible and guilty.

IF I was on this jury, I would find them both guilty of first degree murder. My rational is, a "loaded" gun was brought along on their pre-planned and premeditated "mission." This proves intent to murder. No reason to bring a loaded gun if they were just on a scoping mission (IMO MS's excuse to try and save his own hiney). IF the intention of bring the gun was only meant to be used to scare Tim into leaving his vehicle, again no need for ammo in the gun. According to the law, it does not matter who brought the loaded gun and who the shooter was, they are both equally responsible and guilty. For further consideration, after the fact, they acted together to destroy, dispose of evidence and cover their tracks that night and for days following until their arrests. Either one went to LE knowing an innocent man's life was destroyed. It takes a "special" breed and mindset to be able to do what these two did...pure evil. Tim's murder IMO was no accident.

IMO both lack a conscience, showed no remorse, no morals, both show traits of psychopaths and narcissism, and deserve nothing less than first degree. I hope and pray the jurors make the right decision for society as a whole and bring about proper justice as far as legalities go, to bring justice for Tim and his loved ones. ALL MOO.

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 14h14 hours ago
The Crown doesn't need to prove every single fact beyond a reasonable doubt though, Goodman says. Only the essential elements

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 14h14 hours ago
Goodman now moving on to reasonable doubt. "It is a doubt based on reason or common sense ... "

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 14h14 hours ago
"It is not enough for you to find an accused probably or likely guilty." Goodman says.

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 14h14 hours ago
But, jury should also note it's almost impossible to prove something with "absolute certainty," Goodman notes.

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC 9h9 hours ago
The jury has to be satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt that his death was planned and deliberate.

IMO the Crown did a fantastic job of logically and reasonably laying it all out for the jurors, the mindset of DM the psychopath. These tweets from TL's closing tell me Tim's murder was no accident, it was planned and MS was a willing and eager participant start to finish. ALL MOO.

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Jun 2
Leitch says the "biggest flaw" in Smich's evidence is he had multiple chances to get away from Millard, but didn't.

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Jun 2
"You don't follow a lunatic with a gun to a dark, isolated location where he can kill you too."

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Jun 2
"Stage one complete, taking a respite" Millard texted to Noudga at 8:29 a.m. on May 7.

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Jun 2
"This is the man who according to his counsel's address is surprised by a shooting and is obligated to help Mark"

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Jun 2
"Had a nice five hour nap & bath, refreshed and ready for the next stage of mission digestion." Millard texted Noudga.

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Jun 2
"That's Dellen Millard after this murder" Leitch says. "This isn't the guy who is upset in the aftermath of some accidental shooting"

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Jun 2
Leitch says the defence has tried to make this a "choice between shooters."

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Jun 2
[B]Helpers or those who encourage a murder may be as guilty as someone who causes a murder, Letich says.
[/B]
Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Jun 2
"If there was one shooter, does that mean the other non-shooter is not guilty? Not at all."

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Jun 2
"To knowingly help a murderer do it, or encouraging a murder ... is enough."

Adam Carter ‏@AdamCarterCBC Jun 2
"You may never be sure about every aspect of what happened, and you dont need to be. None of you need to decide exactly who did what"

 

[mimimic]

Would be pretty risky to pull out a gun and hope its not noticed before you shoot a guy who's like 1 foot away from you.

Hadn't really thought about it, but he'd have to pull it out of his man purse and then he'd want it a fair distance away from his own body so he doesn't accidentally shoot himself while avoiding the steering wheel. Be an awkward move while driving.

These two quotes together if, considering MS as the shooter. in deed

It isn't like TB had to have been killed either at the Bullman property OR where DM pulled over in front of Bobcat. He could have been shot anywhere along the way, but DM perhaps chose not to stop to let MS know the change of plans until he felt it was a safe area in which to do so. Also, depending on whether TB's truck was actually worth the price he was asking, it may or may not have been going to be an easy sell for TB to sell his truck. I recall SB saying he hopped into the front passenger seat, and I got the impression TB was quite cheerful, who wouldn't be, if it looked like he was finally going to get rid of his lemon? And from the sounds of things, DM had the gift of coming across as 'trustworthy' and personable; DM could have had a million things to talk about to kind of keep TB's focus on things other than where they were headed or how far they were going to go. moo

for third quote:Teasundins's 15-20 minute text needs comment. too bad it wasn't a boring test drive. At first glace that seemed dramatic, but got me thinking

 

[Claroon]

And neither of them said it was an accident, so forget manslaughter.

 

[swedie]

I'm going to make a bold prediction. IMO, after spending 4 months together, this Jury is probably very much in sync- out of 12, I'll take the logical route and suggest that 50% of them would call 1st degree during the 1st day. I don't believe any of them would even be on the acquittal page going into deliberations. 4 of them will be stuck on 2nd degree and will really need to weigh the premeditation aspect of things and there'll be 2 that may be considering MS's testimony and perhaps manslaughter for him. I'm guessing they'll call on the Judge to clarify a few things for them on Tuesday and when they finish up Tuesday night, 10 will be together with double 1st degree. Wednesday will require another review from the Judge and I'm predicting that they will have reached a verdict of 1st degree murder for both between 2 & 4 on Thursday!! Hows that for an exacting prediction

Love your predictions MsSherlock. I predict all 12 will agree DM is guilty of first degree right out of the gate. The hold up will be MS with six voting manslaughter, three for second degree and the other three murder in the first. By Wednesday at approximately 3:30pm they will have reached their verdict of guilty in the first for both MS and DM. ALL MOO.

 

[Sillybilly]

Well then, how where THEY going to plan to take it from the source?

Just to clarify, it was Millard who said "We take what we want from the source."

Clairmont trial tweets, Line 8185
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...U/htmlview?usp=sharing&pref=2&pli=1&sle=true#

 

[Claroon]

I think they were both lunatics with plenty of planning. If they weren't planners, they wouldn't have used the words "plan" in their texts and even MS in his testimony.

When MS says this, "Plan was after scoping, would return another day or at night to steal the truck? Smich says plan was to come back later. May 17, 2016" to me that implies there was "a plan." "Have to consider many variables, says Smich. Want to avoid witnesses, not leave trail of evidence. All part of Dell's plan. #Bosma May 17, 2016"

I think once they got him in the truck, went crazy on him. If the intent was murder and theft, no pleasantries needed? They had a remote area, a great truck, an easy target. While hyped up, maybe on an orange guy too, they'd just want to get it done IMO.

I liked the quote by the judge that implied to me--- the jury consider motive, and one motive was truck theft, but DM had $20,000+ and could have bought the truck, so is that really a reasonable motive? If not, then what was the motive?

I think after going wild on TB, then dropped MS off at the Yukon. I think they were both in the car when TB was 'first' shot. Then headed west only to turn around and then head north...you know the rest...followed by a smoke and celebration at Bobcat and the farm.

Makes sense to me if DM didn't set a GPS that he might have gotten mixed up both on Book Road and Trinity, and gone south on Oak Park by mistake or really didn't know how to get to the farm from the 403 without a GPS. Or he intended to stop at Bobcat anyhow--make sure no one was following, etc. Many people are GPS dependent these days, except those who don't want to be followed through it. IMO

Like putting the dog food out, IMO evidence does not contradict this theory, there is dog food in it. If this theory is what happened it makes sense they would make up a fairy tale to cover themselves. If this is what happened and one gets let off, justice would not have been served.

 

[Sillybilly]

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