GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #10

[mbmc]

Each court has a catchment area - I don't know exactly how that works. When I lived in south London I did jury service in Croydon Crown Court, which involved a short train journey and a walk. They paid travel expenses.

Thank you, it was a bit of a naive question, so I guess about an hour journey (using public transport) would be considered acceptable.


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[Alyce]

Morning All, just catching up with the overnight posts...

Wishing for a good result today, but not hopeful

Well done Michelle x

wonder why the police presence - will have a look and see what other trials are on at the mo

 

[Alyce]

Quite a few other hearings going on in Court One today



The Crown Court

at St Albans
Daily List for Wednesday 22 February 2017 at BRICKET ROAD ST ALBANS


Court 1 - sitting at 10:00 AM

HIS HONOUR JUDGE BRIGHT QC

Trial (Part Heard)
T20167121 STEWART Ian
41E12190616

Jury in deliberation

 

[L2L]

Today, it's Prison Bean.




The photo of Helen cradling little Boris just breaks my heart!

 

[Moll]

Thank you, it was a bit of a naive question, so I guess about an hour journey (using public transport) would be considered acceptable.


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No, not naive at all.
Yes, the fact that I was in London using public transport meant it was an hour but I think that would be on the long side for most people. My sister from the same address at the time was summoned to an inner London court. It's probably a postcode thing but as I said I'm not sure. No idea what St Albans' catchment area is.

 

[DollyDiamond]

Morning All, just catching up with the overnight posts...

Wishing for a good result today, but not hopeful

Well done Michelle x


wonder why the police presence - will have a look and see what other trials are on at the mo

Hey Alyce! Do you mean you don't think there'll be a verdict today or you don't think there'll be a Guilty verdict? Your post worried me! I assumed the court was swarming with coppers because a verdict is expected in the trial of Ian Stewart - surely he has to be the biggest crim in court today?

 

[jenspired]

Yes, Annad, I feel the same! Even just following/lurking on this thread has made me feel part of a very special group of people the like of which I doubt I will ever meet again. My heartfelt thanks to each one for everything you've done and said here to bring closure and justice to the awful final hours of our lovely Helen and Boris. Thank you also for the laughter and the tears I've shed along the way.

If the link works, this is my little pet, "Amy", who is loved to bits just as Boris was.

ETA ...I'm also going to miss the afternoon naps that enabled me to stay up into the wee small hours here in Australia so as to 'be there' as events unfolded!

My heart is melting. My biggest unachieved dream is having a doggy and I would love one just like Amy! I know I keep banging on about these but:

 

[Moll]

Morning All, just catching up with the overnight posts...

Wishing for a good result today, but not hopeful

Well done Michelle x

wonder why the police presence - will have a look and see what other trials are on at the mo

BIB
I hope you mean you're not hopeful we'll get the result today, Alyce,not that it won't be good when it comes! I have decided I must go out for a couple of hours or I'll be checking all the time. As I am antiquated and have no smartphone, once I'm away from my PC I can't check.

 

[Cherwell]

Good morning all.

I'm hopeful for a result today. I think I was expecting too much for an answer yesterday, I totally forgot he's been charged on more than one offence, plus they'll have had to elect a foreperson and had lunch and a wee or two.

I'm sure you're right.

I find it very hard to believe that there could be ten people on that jury who could be gullible enough to believe IS's versions.

 

[ColourPurple]

If I was a juror and wished to give any credence to the existence of Nick and Joe then the following has to be believed.
That such was their desire to reach the cess pit they took a risk and ignored the possibility of any surveillance or alarm systems that any sensible homeowner would have activated or installed especially if we are to believe they had visited before.

That they somehow opened the garage door unless of course we assume the absent owner had conveniently left it open for them to perform their dastardly deed

On that last point it is my belief that IS in making the strange and unrelated comment about the ‘garage door being open’ when arrested and later explained as concern over break in was to start laying the scenario in the mind of the police for intrusion into the garage by other persons (later to be named as Nick and Joe) as he knew full well what was in the cess pit and it was time to start shifting the blame.

I think IS is trying to say that they disposed of her body in the cess pit when they asked him for the jeep keys and said they needed something from the garage. How Nick & Joe knew that IS wouldn't pop into the garage while they were doing that and see them putting his fiancee down the cesspit and how they knew he wouldn't look out of the window and see them carrying a body from their car I just don't know.

 

[Duchy]

You'd be proud of me - first at court! Loads of police here milling around for some reason!

Well done Michelle!

 

[ColourPurple]

It's incredibly rare for men to be afflicted by Munchausens, although obviously not nonexistent. The overriding feature of Munchausens is to garner sympathy and attention. And also to appear a martyr to the support and care given to the sick/mentally unwell individual.

This looks to be a case of drugging someone for control, not attention. Nor to give care, since none was given as far as we are aware. He also ended up killing her, likely by suffocation and concealing the body. Not in an aim to garner more sympathy and attention due to the sad demise of the individual they have been 'oh so lovingly' caring for, but to nick (no pun intended) her money.

i.e. This doesn't fit Munchausens for me at all.

I think he may well be suffering from Munchausens syndrome, where he tries to get attention himself for imaginary or exaggerated illnesses but not Munchausens by proxy . Here's some of the symtoms of Munchausens

Signs and symptoms of Munchausen's syndrome may include pretending to be ill or self-harming to aggravate or induce illness.
There are four main ways people with Munchausen's syndrome fake or induce illnesses, including:
*lying about symptoms – for example, choosing symptoms that are difficult to disprove, such as having a severe headache or pretending to have a seizure (fit) or to pass out
*tampering with test results – for example, heating a thermometer to suggest a fever or adding blood to a urine sample
*self-infliction – for example, cutting or burning themselves, poisoning themselves with drugs, or eating food contaminated with bacteria
*aggravating pre-existing conditions – for example, rubbing faeces into wounds to cause an infection, or reopening previously healed wounds

Other signs
Some clues that a person may have Munchausen's syndrome include:
*making frequent visits to hospitals in different areas
*claiming to have a history of complex and serious medical conditions with no or little supporting documentary evidence – people often claim they've spent a long time out of the country
*having symptoms that don't correspond to test results
*having symptoms that get worse for no apparent reason
*having very good medical knowledge
*receiving few or no hospital visitors – many people with Munchausen's syndrome adopt a solitary lifestyle and have little contact with friends or family
*being willing to undergo often painful or dangerous tests and procedures
*reporting symptoms that are vague and inconsistent, or reporting a pattern of symptoms that are "textbook examples" of certain conditions
*telling highly unbelievable and often very elaborate stories about their past – such as claiming to be a decorated war hero or that their parents are fantastically rich and powerful

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Munchausens-syndrome/Pages/Symptoms.aspx

Although it does warn not to mistake health anxiety or malingering for munchausens and IS fits their description of malingering

malingering – faking illness to gain a material benefit, such as avoiding military duty or obtaining compensation

 

[cottonweaver]

[video=twitter;834346360883257344]https://twitter.com/TaraCoxCN/status/834346360883257344[/video]

Jurors in the Helen Bailey murder trial are being sent back out to consider their verdicts in the case this morning

13 mins ago

 

[LozDa]

I think he may well be suffering from Munchausens syndrome, where he tries to get attention himself for imaginary or exaggerated illnesses but not Munchausens by proxy . Here's some of the symtoms of Munchausens

Signs and symptoms of Munchausen's syndrome may include pretending to be ill or self-harming to aggravate or induce illness.
There are four main ways people with Munchausen's syndrome fake or induce illnesses, including:
*lying about symptoms – for example, choosing symptoms that are difficult to disprove, such as having a severe headache or pretending to have a seizure (fit) or to pass out
*tampering with test results – for example, heating a thermometer to suggest a fever or adding blood to a urine sample
*self-infliction – for example, cutting or burning themselves, poisoning themselves with drugs, or eating food contaminated with bacteria
*aggravating pre-existing conditions – for example, rubbing faeces into wounds to cause an infection, or reopening previously healed wounds

Other signs
Some clues that a person may have Munchausen's syndrome include:
*making frequent visits to hospitals in different areas
*claiming to have a history of complex and serious medical conditions with no or little supporting documentary evidence – people often claim they've spent a long time out of the country
*having symptoms that don't correspond to test results
*having symptoms that get worse for no apparent reason
*having very good medical knowledge
*receiving few or no hospital visitors – many people with Munchausen's syndrome adopt a solitary lifestyle and have little contact with friends or family
*being willing to undergo often painful or dangerous tests and procedures
*reporting symptoms that are vague and inconsistent, or reporting a pattern of symptoms that are "textbook examples" of certain conditions
*telling highly unbelievable and often very elaborate stories about their past – such as claiming to be a decorated war hero or that their parents are fantastically rich and powerful

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Munchausens-syndrome/Pages/Symptoms.aspx

Hmmm... the thing is that people with Munchausen's aren't really faking illnesses to manipulate situations or people in their lives to their profit. It's for attention and sympathy - not really for financial gain.

It's a slither-thin distinction, I agree. But I don't think he's faking illness because he likes being a martyr to them and likes the sympathy they illicit. I think he fakes and exaggerates illnesses because he's aware of the leverage he can manipulate from doing so.

It's the difference between a genuine mental illness and personality disorder (which is arguably also a mental illness, but we will leave that particular debate for another day as it gets into some very choppy oceans!)

 

[ColourPurple]

Hmmm... the thing is that people with Munchausen's aren't really faking illnesses to manipulate situations or people in their lives to their profit. It's for attention and sympathy - not really for financial gain.

It's a slither-thin distinction, I agree. But I don't think he's faking illness because he likes being a martyr to them and likes the sympathy they illicit. I think he fakes and exaggerates illnesses because he's aware of the leverage he can manipulate from doing so.

It's the difference between a genuine mental illness and personality disorder (which is arguably also a mental illness, but we will leave that particular debate for another day as it gets into some very choppy oceans!)

I added the part about malingering but I really think it could be both. Think of his whole "when I had cancer" story when he never even had cancer. That seems for more for attention than financial gain... unless he was hoping that he did have something serious that he could use to claim DLA.

 

[Tortoise]

I've been having a think about Milly's comments and I think I understand now in the context of her previous postings. She believes one of the sons did it and IS is covering for him.

I can only think it's because his victim act has done its work on Milly. As I said yesterday, it isn't about understanding motive or capacity for murder. The jury are not at liberty to consider that anyone other than IS, Nick or Joe did this, or that IS has another story they haven't heard.

 

[Wilkco]

This is just a general question.

If an accused is not given bail and are held in custody and then at trial found NOT GUILTY can they claim compensation for the time held?

 

[KarenUK]

Hmmm... the thing is that people with Munchausen's aren't really faking illnesses to manipulate situations or people in their lives to their profit. It's for attention and sympathy - not really for financial gain.

It's a slither-thin distinction, I agree. But I don't think he's faking illness because he likes being a martyr to them and likes the sympathy they illicit. I think he fakes and exaggerates illnesses because he's aware of the leverage he can manipulate from doing so.

It's the difference between a genuine mental illness and personality disorder (which is arguably also a mental illness, but we will leave that particular debate for another day as it gets into some very choppy oceans!)

He has reminded me of my ex husband quite a few times throughout the trial and reading his comments before his arrest - every ailment is blown up out of proportion and they are too "sick" to work (despite being well enough to tinker about with toys in their sheds!) and really using it as a tool to manipulate people. Admittedly I may be reading into it as I am now well aware of the signs, but so much of his behaviour screams warning bells to me.

 

[KarenUK]

I've been having a think about Milly's comments and I think I understand now in the context of her previous postings. She believes one of the sons did it and IS is covering for him.

I can only think it's because his victim act has done its work on Milly. As I said yesterday, it isn't about understanding motive or capacity for murder. The jury are not at liberty to consider that anyone other than IS, Nick or Joe did this, or that IS has another story they haven't heard.

I did wonder at the start of the trial if that was the case, but IS opened his gob and all doubt was removed for me!

 

[Alyce]

Hey Alyce! Do you mean you don't think there'll be a verdict today or you don't think there'll be a Guilty verdict? Your post worried me! I assumed the court was swarming with coppers because a verdict is expected in the trial of Ian Stewart - surely he has to be the biggest crim in court today?

Morning Dolly.

I meant that I did not think there would be a verdict today. I cannot see 12 people voting for not guilty, but I do worry that there may be 3 who feel the case has not been proven and that might lead to delay, or even a re trial if none of them can be persuaded otherwise.

I am probably ( hopefully ) being overly pessimistic but I am just so surprised that there was no verdict yesterday. They had over 4 hours and to me that is more than enough to convict on what, to my mind, is a very, very strong case against him.
Hence the reason I think this delay is more than jurors just going over the evidence.

IS has basically admitted to the charges of reporting Helen missing, when he knew where she was ! and also admitted having her phone when he claimed he did not...so that's 2 charges that they have to find him guilty on

Leaves only 4 charges to consider.
I cant see how the fraud and duvet charges would require hours of discussion.
So that leaves only the murder charge ( and preventing lawful burial, which goes in tandem with the murder ) as the only sticking point ..and that is what worries me.

I had a look at names of others appearing in St Albans court today and nothing jumped out at me as being important - so let's hope those extra police are there to escort Big Bean on his way to many years of prison life.