Did JonBenet Have A Nosebleed The Night She Died?

[KoldKase]

It's hard to say. Burke's generation is the first to grow up on videogames as primary entertainment. We may see research down the road that it results in children detaching somewhat from interpersonal interactions. I'm not saying it handicaps them, but that they may appear introverted or distant to those who aren't close to them.

With all the "protection" placed around Burke by his parents, because of the murder, because of the media, he probably grew up with a lot of psychological walls, as well.

I can't speak to Burke's private life, truly. He may drink or use drugs socially like many other young people. He may not at all. I've never heard or read he has any addiction issues, but I doubt we would, as he is still a private citizen rather than a public figure, which is one thing the Ramseys did right for him.

I try to remember that whatever happened that night, Burke was a young child himself. He is a victim, as well.

 

[KoldKase]

Not so much cold as distant. I wouldn't think of his behavior as cold as much as I think he has pushed the events of that night, as well as any ongoing sexual activity with his sister, to the deepest recesses of his mind. It is almost as if it happened to someone else. Like who he is NOW is not the same as who he was THEN.
People often remember events of their childhood the way they WANT to remember them, and the way they have been TOLD they happened, and not always the way they really happened.

Agree completely. Childhood memory is easily projected, mixed up, blocked out, or just plain forgotten.

 

[KoldKase]

DeeDee249,
Yes, lots of questions about the wine-cellar and its contents, but what about JonBenet's bedroom, not a lot, just round about queries regarding forensic dead ends, certainly nothing about feces!

There was even questions asked about JR's bedroom, but BR's bedroom, well silence, other than was it Fleet White who made up BR's bed that morning?

Its as if everything was steered in a particular direction without any conclusions being reached. Mirroring Alex Hunter's strategy of no prosecution being pursued.

Was the candy smeared with feces by JonBenet, what about all those feces stained pants in her bedroom, whats all that about, i.e. was the fecal pathology specific to JonBenet or did BR contribute?

All these years later and I am left with a distinct feeling that we have been conned and the real or relevant forensic data is yet to be released?

.

And what a con.

I think most of what we've learned about Hunter is he was always perpetuating the illusion that he was a prosecutor, but he never meant for this case to have an arrest, much less go to trial, and he knew how to make sure of it. It's what he did his entire career.

That's why he hired Lou Smit, which Smit said himself: to explore the intruder defense.

But Smit wasn't the only investigator the taxpayers of Boulder paid to work for the defense led by the DA. How many years later did the Ramseys' own private investigators reveal to the public on Nancy Grace's show that they, too, had worked for Hunter, along with Smit? Ollie, San Agustin, and Smit were all hired and paid by DA Alex Hunter to investigate the intruder defense. Smit was on that payroll for a year before he jumped ship, got the rights to copies of case evidence handed to him by Hunter (which no other private citizen has ever had access to), and then went to work shilling it as propaganda for the prime suspects.

In all of American criminal history, that's got to be uniquely twisted as the legacy of a career DA.

 

[andreww]

One has to wonder if the trend of news as entertainment that started about that time was what truly hampered this case? Even today, there are many people who believe the Ramsey's have been exonerated, that there was no evidence against them, and that the GJ voted not to persue them. All the key players in this case were treated as celebrities, and in exchange for their appearance on Larry King, they were allowed to spread their lies and propaganda without fear of being called on it. Nobody ever asked them hard questions. The Ramsey's brought ratings and the producers of those shows knew that hard questions would certainly ensure that the Ramsey's would never be back. To this day it continues (JRs appearance on Anderson Coopers show in 2012 being the last I can recall) and just sickens me. The Ramsey's used the media to escape justice, and to a large extent clear their names. Only Nancy Grace had the balls to tell it like it was, but she certainly wasn't counting on having the Ramsey's as guests, and they would have never done her show anyway.

Rant over, back to our regularly scheduled program


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[questfortrue]

Agree completely. Childhood memory is easily projected, mixed up, blocked out, or just plain forgotten.

Wonder why the trigger was pulled to engage LW once again, after BR was contacted by BPD in 2010. BR could simply have said he remembered nothing, but instead they (BR/JR) pulled out the legal gun.

 

[KoldKase]

Old habits--or softwares--die hard. I made a mess out of my responses last night, so let's see if I can clean this up. My post #240 was meant to quote this post of yours Andreww:

I don't think you said a word that I disagree with. I just wonder how Burke could have grown up to be such a seemingly respectable young man with what he knows to have happened. I would have pegged him to be a future alcoholic or drug abuser. Could he really be that cold?

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And also for you, Midwest Mama:

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KK...just a tidbit with regard to your excellent post. I wonder if we can look at the other brother for a tie in to additional abuse of JB? There was that stained comforter and Suess book in the suitcase JR claimed to have moved. Is it possible JR learned one of the dirty secrets and knew why the paintbrush assault would be necessary? Sometimes big brothers are good teachers of younger siblings.

So maybe this makes more sense now:

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Whoever put that suitcase under that window drew JAR into a lifetime of suspicion he'll probably never shake.

Statistically, older brothers are the largest percentage of abusers of younger siblings who are abused.

JAR also was in a prime age range for abusers, statistically. That doesn't prove anything, but his friends told a reporter not long after the murder how much JAR loved JB and talked about JB's beauty. To other young men in college. I don't think they even imagined the implications of that.

JAR was missing from the Ramseys' book about the murder, which was noticed, as well. He was very aggressive with the media--and I can understand that, but it wasn't the prudent attitude, all things considered.

The more the Ramseys circled the wagons, the more suspicion they drew upon each and every one of their own.

 

[KoldKase]

One has to wonder if the trend of news as entertainment that started about that time was what truly hampered this case? Even today, there are many people who believe the Ramsey's have been exonerated, that there was no evidence against them, and that the GJ voted not to persue them. All the key players in this case were treated as celebrities, and in exchange for their appearance on Larry King, they were allowed to spread their lies and propaganda without fear of being called on it. Nobody ever asked them hard questions. The Ramsey's brought ratings and the producers of those shows knew that hard questions would certainly ensure that the Ramsey's would never be back. To this day it continues (JRs appearance on Anderson Coopers show in 2012 being the last I can recall) and just sickens me. The Ramsey's used the media to escape justice, and to a large extent clear their names. Only Nancy Grace had the balls to tell it like it was, but she certainly wasn't counting on having the Ramsey's as guests, and they would have never done her show anyway.

Rant over, back to our regularly scheduled program


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I think we have to keep in mind that on the night in question, while a child's abuse and death were being perpetrated, whomever you believe that to be, not one person in the house or the town or the country or the world could have predicted that the videos of a six year old child dressed so outrageously and dancing like an adult showgirl would spawn the media firestorm it did.

I doubt anyone even thought about them that night.

A slow news week, Christmas holidays, and all the elements of a Hollywood blockbuster unlike any ever done before intersected to spin out every weak and ugly trait of humanity.

The careless small town hierarchy which fostered the now historic and devastating hubris in the DA's Office was rivaled only by the shameless clamoring of legal and media has beens and wannabes to get on the Fame-and-Fortune Train. It would all be so predictable now, because of this very case.

You're exactly right, Andreww. But for all of this, the Ramseys could have waltzed away from their dead daughter's brutalized body without much more than a funeral and years of being pitied as victims of some small foreign faction.

So I'm not going to lament the media frenzy and sequence of events that led to us knowing how corrupt our legal system is, how close it came to letting the rich get away with murder totally unscathed. The media, for all its faults, only mirrored those at play already. It truly is the Fourth Estate which keeps those who would do their dirty deeds behind closed doors on their toes, if nothing else.

JMO

 

[KoldKase]

Wonder why the trigger was pulled to engage LW once again, after BR was contacted by BPD in 2010. BR could simply have said he remembered nothing, but instead they (BR/JR) pulled out the legal gun.

JR once said on Larry King Live that no one would ever get to Burke. He meant the media, pathetically enough, not an intruder who "got" to JBR.

I think a lot has been done to make sure that is always the case, as long as JR is alive, anyway.

 

[UKGuy]

And what a con.

I think most of what we've learned about Hunter is he was always perpetuating the illusion that he was a prosecutor, but he never meant for this case to have an arrest, much less go to trial, and he knew how to make sure of it. It's what he did his entire career.

That's why he hired Lou Smit, which Smit said himself: to explore the intruder defense.

But Smit wasn't the only investigator the taxpayers of Boulder paid to work for the defense led by the DA. How many years later did the Ramseys' own private investigators reveal to the public on Nancy Grace's show that they, too, had worked for Hunter, along with Smit? Ollie, San Agustin, and Smit were all hired and paid by DA Alex Hunter to investigate the intruder defense. Smit was on that payroll for a year before he jumped ship, got the rights to copies of case evidence handed to him by Hunter (which no other private citizen has ever had access to), and then went to work shilling it as propaganda for the prime suspects.

In all of American criminal history, that's got to be uniquely twisted as the legacy of a career DA.

KoldKase,

Maybe one day someone will untangle all the corporate interests involved? The Lawyers, Realtors, PI's etc.

I have no doubt at all that JR was being given top level criminal defence advice along with a specific PR strategy, that has largely been successful, i.e. lots of public media appearances talking about the Intruder!

What gets me is the state of JonBenet's bedroom, and all the BPD investigators can come up with is: Did JonBenet ever have nosebleeds? I'll bet both PR and JR thought: "Hello, now that seems like a good reason for a bloodstain on her pillow!"

No questions regarding why all the pants were dropped on the floor, nothing about the feces, only Holly Smith ever detailed issues with fecal matter, but she had her JonBenet chapter redacted and was pulled from the case!

Holly Smith recently wrote a book about her 20 years with the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team. She left out the chapter about the Ramsey case.

One poignant find that she does recall was a red satin box with what looked like JonBenet’s secret stash of candy.

She found something else in the room, however, which raised an immediate red flag. Smith says most of the panties in JonBenet’s dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material.

"There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith.

...

Smith adds, "There was an indication of trauma in the vaginal area."

The coroner's autopsy discovered evidence investigators say indicates JonBenet suffered vaginal trauma the night she was murdered. However the autopsy report also describes evidence of possible prior vaginal trauma. Experts disagree about the significance of that.

There was no disarray in BR's bedroom, JR's bedroom, the Breakfast Bar, or even the Basement, only JonBenet's bedroom, so BPD investigators must have known this is where it all happened, nearly everything else is staging?

I'll bet someone scripted the Ramsey interviews and the investigators just fell in line?

Apart from the feeling of being conned, there is also a distinct sense of everything being stage-managed!


.

 

[questfortrue]

KoldKase,

RSBM~
Apart from the feeling of being conned, there is also a distinct sense of everything being stage-managed!

.

That's how it felt to me, too.

Like a theatre production:
Preparing the production, coaching the suspects (actors): H Law firm, the most powerful, politically connected law firm in Colorado.
Enter Patrick Korten - Media Trainer and Consultant, ex Director of Public Affairs, US Department of Justice
Enter JD – famous criminal profiler. His “no history of violence” with the R family suggested an intruder, and would become the R refrain.
Enter Lou Smit – Media circuit: Time Magazine, Newsweek, the Today show, Entertainment Tonight, Fox News, LKL, UK Documentary, Court TV
Stage hands: Investigators Armistead, Williams, Ollie and San Augustin

(Won’t go into the folks representing DA’s office, but they seemed to represent a “supporting” cast.)

JMHO

 

[UKGuy]

That's how it felt to me, too.

Like a theatre production:
Preparing the production, coaching the suspects (actors): H Law firm, the most powerful, politically connected law firm in Colorado.
Enter Patrick Korten - Media Trainer and Consultant, ex Director of Public Affairs, US Department of Justice
Enter JD – famous criminal profiler. His “no history of violence” with the R family suggested an intruder, and would become the R refrain.
Enter Lou Smit – Media circuit: Time Magazine, Newsweek, the Today show, Entertainment Tonight, Fox News, LKL, UK Documentary, Court TV
Stage hands: Investigators Armistead, Williams, Ollie and San Augustin

(Won’t go into the folks representing DA’s office, but they seemed to represent a “supporting” cast.)

JMHO

questfortrue,
Theatre or movie production, thats how it appears to me. Orchestration is how would describe it, with an overall strategy outlined early on, with all the low level actors having to fulfill their mandated roles, e.g. Steve Thomas, Lou Smit, Linda Arandt, Dr Beuf etc.

That Schiller was allowed advance sight of the R's version of events and imported it, lock stock and barrel, into his narrative tells you everything you want to know about a high level conspiracy to promote an IDI agenda.

I now think that prior to the 911 call the R's had briefed the BPD on what was coming, hence the subsequent injuction to treat the R's as victims.

This also explains why the R's telephone metadata vanished in plain sight, despite the fact that the security agencies never allow such data to be deleted, i.e. for the uninitiated it is no longer available!

The clues are there, its simply that the R's were very successful in dramatising JonBenet's death as the consequence of an intruder assault, due process appeared to be followed, all the low level actors enacted their script. The public gazing at their TV's simply assumed the R's were telling it like it was, except we at WS know otherwise.

For a while I assumed that JonBenet's homicide could be explained away by various forms of staging. Now I reckon only conspiracy can explain away all the interactions by the various agents involved. By this I mean Corporate Conspiracy where legal entities are employed to the benefit of priveliged individuals.

e.g. the sale of the R's house: executed by some corporate body with JR's contacts as either board members or contracted agents.

The use of corporate structures employed to evade the gaze of the public is one aspect of this case that has deflected any public scrutiny to shine a light on the more arcane aspects of the case.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

It wasn't the BPD that was briefed by the Rs. It was rather the DA's office who briefed the BPD to "treat these people like victims, not suspects". And the DA likely got his "instructions" from the defense team, governor's office or both.

 

[UKGuy]

It wasn't the BPD that was briefed by the Rs. It was rather the DA's office who briefed the BPD to "treat these people like victims, not suspects". And the DA likely got his "instructions" from the defense team, governor's office or both.

DeeDee249,
Nice to have you on my case!


.

 

[dsmit]

It looks like you did your homework.
I found it odd that her skull injury was so badly crushed. Did they ever check the ball bat for DNA, could she have fallen or been pushed out a window? Did they ever check the grounds for blood. But then I say to myself why did her family not cooperate?
The thing that really sticks out in my mind is these friends of the Ramseys cleaning the house.

 

[digginin]

I DONT THINK SHE WAS PLACED IN BED. NO. RATHER ELSEWHERE. WHY DONT WE START WITH ALL THE FACT AROUND THIS CASE AGAIN. WE SHOULD START WHERE THEY GOT HOME. ALSO I THINK SHE DRAW THE LITTLE HEART HERSELF. CHILDREN JUST LOVE TO DO THAT. nO LETS TAKE IT AGAIN. jUST LIKE MCCANNS. VERY SAME STORY. JUST POOR MADDY - NO EVIDENCE - JUST LOOKING AT THE MOTHER'S FACE - GUILT AL OVER. LET START IN DETAIL AGAIN. WE WILL SOLVE THIS YET.

 

[andreww]

It wasn't the BPD that was briefed by the Rs. It was rather the DA's office who briefed the BPD to "treat these people like victims, not suspects". And the DA likely got his "instructions" from the defense team, governor's office or both.

To me these are the people that should be held accountable. Alex Hunter and Mary Lacy did things that defy logic. Are they just that stupid or were they corrupted? I don't think anyone is that stupid, so that only leaves one option. I believe that if you were to investigate that corruption it would lead directly back to John Ramsey. I believe that Phone records were never subpoenaed for that very reason, because John made a call to someone of power that very day. If that call is uncovered it would be very easy to trace the path to the DA's office.

 

[andreww]

I think we have to keep in mind that on the night in question, while a child's abuse and death were being perpetrated, whomever you believe that to be, not one person in the house or the town or the country or the world could have predicted that the videos of a six year old child dressed so outrageously and dancing like an adult showgirl would spawn the media firestorm it did.

I doubt anyone even thought about them that night.

A slow news week, Christmas holidays, and all the elements of a Hollywood blockbuster unlike any ever done before intersected to spin out every weak and ugly trait of humanity.

The careless small town hierarchy which fostered the now historic and devastating hubris in the DA's Office was rivaled only by the shameless clamoring of legal and media has beens and wannabes to get on the Fame-and-Fortune Train. It would all be so predictable now, because of this very case.

You're exactly right, Andreww. But for all of this, the Ramseys could have waltzed away from their dead daughter's brutalized body without much more than a funeral and years of being pitied as victims of some small foreign faction.

So I'm not going to lament the media frenzy and sequence of events that led to us knowing how corrupt our legal system is, how close it came to letting the rich get away with murder totally unscathed. The media, for all its faults, only mirrored those at play already. It truly is the Fourth Estate which keeps those who would do their dirty deeds behind closed doors on their toes, if nothing else.

JMO

It kind of reminds me of the band KISS way back in the 70s. The wore the makeup and the biggest question on the planet was "what do these guys look like". One would think that the media would have found pictures somewhere? Years later we learned that there were plenty of pictures without makeup, the magazines just chose not to publish them. Why? Because KISS was the biggest band in the world, they sold magazines, and editors simply didn't want to piss the band off and risk being boycotted by the band.

The Ramsey's are in the same situation. We'll do your show provided we approve the questions. The network gets their ratings, they don't give a crap, and the illusion lives on. Best of all, The Ramsey's will come back anytime they're asked.

 

[Miz Adventure]

I DONT THINK SHE WAS PLACED IN BED. NO. RATHER ELSEWHERE. WHY DONT WE START WITH ALL THE FACT AROUND THIS CASE AGAIN. WE SHOULD START WHERE THEY GOT HOME. ALSO I THINK SHE DRAW THE LITTLE HEART HERSELF. CHILDREN JUST LOVE TO DO THAT. nO LETS TAKE IT AGAIN. jUST LIKE MCCANNS. VERY SAME STORY. JUST POOR MADDY - NO EVIDENCE - JUST LOOKING AT THE MOTHER'S FACE - GUILT AL OVER. LET START IN DETAIL AGAIN. WE WILL SOLVE THIS YET.

Hi!

This forum has been in progress for years and every aspect of this case has been discussed in great detail.

I think the case has been solved - the basics of who and why. Now we're just discussing the peripherals.

 

[kkoshak3]

According to the pathologists the head wound was inflicted post-mortem. I'm wondering if a blow to the head after the victim is deceased would cause bleeding from the ears or nose? Not arguing against the fact that head injuries cause bleeding, but the body reacts differently after death. It was said that there was only about 7cc of blood in the skull, so in reality the head injury caused very little bleeding despite it's large size (hence why the injury is believed to be post-mortem and that she died due to strangulation).

 

[Userid]

^ I've heard conflicting reports on that. I've heard it was post-mortem, but I've also heard it was immediately before the strangulation also.