Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #17

[no name]

IMO from the few shots we've seen of the car retrieved on the shore, it appears alot further north in relation to the groyne than expected if we are to believe the newspapers distance of 35m. Ive compared so many photos and cant see any reason for the car to have been dragged to the location it was IF the location reported was correct. I think it makes much more sense that the car was found further north in the ocean and it was pulled straight out. In that case, Id be leaning towards it being let go (not driven) straight down the John Street side of the clubrooms and entering the water almost in line with the bell.
The photos in the daily news show theres a decent drop to the sand below the shower, which I know from many years swimming in that exact spot, without the sand drift the drop off within the water would have been a fairly steep & close to shore (ie only a few steps between ankle/waist/overhead water). To me, sending it down a straight steep path ending with a platform to launch the car off, over the narrowest distance of sand at any given time at Cottesloe (check every photo ever taken) straight into deeper water that just happens to have a huge chunk of concrete protruding from it, is the most likely means of both getting the car into the water & also to cause the damage that has perplexed everyone for ever & sounds a heap more plausible to me than anything else. It was probably flattened within an hour of hitting the water. This also may explain why none of the usual daily swimmers encountered it - they usually dont swim so close to shore to avoid the wave break and they usually enter near the groyne. Distance swimmers always swim out to near the end of the groyne and across for the same reason & surfers avoid the beach side of the pylon too. So I think thats the most obvious entry point. Snipped

Photo to indicate the drop off when theres no sand drift - that section with the shower hasnt changed
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-in...langcode=en&saveQry=&editorial=1&t=0&edoptin=

 

[NickyScarfo]

Hi guys,
A couple of questions for those who know the procedures of law in WA. Since his arrest in December, what likely has the interaction between BRE and the police been? Would he have been questioned for hours on end over these months? Put pressure on to admit guilt? Shown crime scene photos ect? Or would it be that he was arrested, questioned initially and then both the defence and prosecution quietly go about preparing for court appearances.
Also hypothetically if BRE admitted everything, would we know by now, or only in a few days at the commital hearing?
I’m sure we all would like to be a fly on the wall in the police interviews!

 

[Innerchild]

Launching a car over a one metre drop would be less of a concern than trying to tip it over the groyne. If it was me aiming for the ocean, I would favour flying it over drop off with a bit of speed up and be pretty confident I'd get in the water fast with little risk to self and far less chance of being seen in the act.

I'm not sure if there was beach access from John St. From memory there was a swing gate that was locked. There were steps and from memory if the 4WD beach inspectors couldn't access from the south side of boatshed they used the Noth Cott SLSC access at Eric St. My opinion only.

 

[NickyScarfo]

Another thought I had,
how far back do you think police can check someone’s search history, IF BRE is the killer, can they see back 10 years plus back? Even back to the 90s?!
Would be fascinating to see if he had been reading articles etc on the case, like in 2008 when the MM tape was released, or the media stories on LW.
I guess his internet history will really give a lot of insight to BRE (again alleged killer), Especially if they find *advertiser censored* on there, there are people theorising he did not commit murder or rapes since the 90s, I’m wondering if he was able to get his sexual urges and gratification through the internet, thus stopping his need to leave his house in search of it.

 

[meticulously]

"I think someone said they deleted images off their phone and that deleted the images off websleuths as well. Does that happen?"

Accidentally posted this before it was finished .

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

Yes, Fiat entering from John St side - exact scenario I posed last week. Glad you agree.

I didn't see you pose this scenario sorry. But yes, glad to see we thinking alike!


............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

 

[meticulously]

I think the northern side of SLSA boat shed (current Indiana) was the only access to the beach on that day as the tow truck and / or ranger 4 WD tracks were coming from north of the images. However, there was no boat ramp as such as is now with the Indiana, and no Indiana. There was an access ramp and stairs for walking onto beach which was north was north of boat shed building and faced north and south, not towards the ocean. Sand was always building up or dropping down but on 22nd June 1988, it was reported there was a one metre drop if you were to drive straight off the promenade. Don't forget without the Indiana the original boat shed was back to around where the double doors are in the current picture and the ocean was calm with small waves as seen in recovery.

I'm interested in no names comments that she saw a picture posted on websleuths looking up towards the boat shed which would have showed the sand and promenade conditions. I've seen images as well that are very clear, not just of this but of JR's cctv but they disappeared. I think someone said they deleted images off their phone and that deleted the images off websleuths as well. Does that happen?

Besides metic's coloured images of the retrieved Fiat, this is the best image of what ocean conditions were on 22 June 1988. All my opinion and what Spooks says.

The Sunday Times: Was Julie the First Victim Claremont Serial Killings. July 16th 2000 pg 1, 3

Quote Innerchild :
"I think someone said they deleted images off their phone and that deleted the images off websleuths as well. Does that happen?"

Yes , when first becoming a WS member in oct 2016 , Think i posted pictures and then deleted them off phone ,and accidentally removing them from WS in same deletion .
Most of this happened on the "Leela MacDougall Nannup" thread & a few on "CSK" .
Deleted them off phone and think that they also got removed from WS same time .
Its possible im wrong though and misunderstood what really happened.
This doesn't happen anymore though .
It may have been a rookie error but now it doesnt happen .
Perhaps my settings or security was incorrect, not sure but certainly have upgraded settings & security since then and it doesn't happen anymore.

 

[meticulously]

A-body know where the CSLC keeps their crane, that they use to put the lifeguard thingy on the beach each morning and put it away at night? Reckon anyone might've purloined it for an hour, without it being noticed?

https://youtu.be/hN7-oMK0Uqo

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/hig...a/news-story/bd9a34fb3ef10edd80730527794cd8a7

[video=twitter;841123406489706499]https://twitter.com/AleishaBanner10/status/841123406489706499[/video]

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

PD do you know that the crane existed at cott beach in 1988 ?

That is definately strong machinery that could lift a fiat .Was it there in "88 , anyone know ?

 

[Pandit]

Loads of pressure would be on him but little to gain for BRE in cooperating with the police, he's in the most serious kind of trouble and any admissions on his part (see what happened to the Birnie's when David confessed) won't be of much help in reducing his sentence. I imagine his lawyers have told him to continue to make 'no comment' interviews and when the brief's in talk about strategy then.


No idea what's going to happen at this next court appearance. We might be surprised.

Hi guys,
A couple of questions for those who know the procedures of law in WA. Since his arrest in December, what likely has the interaction between BRE and the police been? Would he have been questioned for hours on end over these months? Put pressure on to admit guilt? Shown crime scene photos ect? Or would it be that he was arrested, questioned initially and then both the defence and prosecution quietly go about preparing for court appearances.
Also hypothetically if BRE admitted everything, would we know by now, or only in a few days at the commital hearing?
I’m sure we all would like to be a fly on the wall in the police interviews!

 

[Pandit]

His equipment and devices might be the best chance they have (provided it isn't all encrypted) going back any further than when surveillance began or to the beginning of when our metadata started to be retained.

A serial rapist in the US, ex military had his computers confiscated as FBI knew he'd taken photographs of his victims but years later, they still can't crack through his encryption.

Another thought I had,
how far back do you think police can check someone’s search history, IF BRE is the killer, can they see back 10 years plus back? Even back to the 90s?!
Would be fascinating to see if he had been reading articles etc on the case, like in 2008 when the MM tape was released, or the media stories on LW.
I guess his internet history will really give a lot of insight to BRE (again alleged killer), Especially if they find *advertiser censored* on there, there are people theorising he did not commit murder or rapes since the 90s, I’m wondering if he was able to get his sexual urges and gratification through the internet, thus stopping his need to leave his house in search of it.

 

[petedavo.au]

PD do you know that the crane existed at cott beach in 1988 ?

That is definately strong machinery that could lift a fiat .Was it there in "88 , anyone know ?

Sculptures by the sea started in 1988. Dunno if they already had a crane then, bought one, or contracted someone. Is there any clues in the picture.

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

 

[meticulously]

I agree there was a weak cold front over the south west of Perth, but the isobar was still 1012 hardly low or very low. That is a high pressure system of 1016 over shark bay in your image not a cold front as you said in your post above. It is clearly shown in my map of 17th June. I'm not sure if your image is of the same day, although similar. It is basic Yr 10 geography. I'm just trying to put the correct facts out there are make sure they do not get distorted.

Metic you have been quoting of random 7 m swells and NW winds off Cape Naturaliste way off of lower south west of WA. That is incompatible winds and swell size as reported for Perth metropolitan on the dates around JC's disappearance

Sorry PD, high pressure systems are anti clockwise, but the weather does move west to east as a system. All the coloured maps you posted metic clearly show a very low pressure system or very very low around 41 or 42 degrees South, so half way to Antarctica around 17th June 1988. That takes about 6 days to arrive in Perth on Friday 24th June.

Source West Australian Sat 18th June 1988

Saturday 18[SUP]th[/SUP] June 1988: Morning showers. Outlook fine. Temp 14 – 20. A high pressure ridge was located across the centre of the continent and was producing fine clear conditions with easterly winds in the northern half.
Extended forecast
As the high pressure ridge moves further southwards a return to fine conditions in inland areas should result by this afternoon. Coastal regions should experience isolated showers early this morning. Another weak front should pass near the southwest corner tomorrow, but showers associated with this system should be confined to the far southwest coast.

Sunday 19[SUP]th[/SUP] June 1988: Temp min 13.6 at 8.50 pm and max 20.6 at 11.45 am.
Monday 20[SUP]th[/SUP] June 1988: Temp min 10.7 at 7.30 am and max 18.4 at 2,25 pm. SW winds at 10 to 15 knots easing to 10 knots by late morning.
Tuesday 21[SUP]st[/SUP] June 1988: Forecast Perth fine and cool. North East winds 5 to 12 knots. Seas should be 0.5 m on a swell to 2.5 m. Temp 8 – 19 degrees.

Extended forecast: With a high pressure cell establishing itself over the southern half, fine conditions should persist over the State until late tomorrow. A front should approach the coast tomorrow night and cross the lower west coast on Thursday.

Wednesday 22[SUP]nd[/SUP] June 1988: Forecast Fine. Outlook showers developing. Temp 10 – 20.
Fine and sunny conditions prevailed through the northern half, while the southern half experienced similar conditions at 4.00pm yesterday. A high pressure system was located over the Eucla and is presently bringing fine weather to almost the whole state. These conditions should persist except for the extreme SW corner where isolated showers are forecast. With clear skies and light winds inland areas should be in for another cold night with local frosts in the southern half. The seasonal fine weather should persist in the northern half.

Source: The West Australian June 17th - 22nd June 1988.

Quote Innerchild :
RSBM..."The isobar was still 1012 hardly low or very low.
That is a high pressure system of 1016 over shark bay in your image not a cold front as you said in your post above.
It is clearly shown in my map of 17th June. I'm not sure if your image is of the same day, although similar.
It is basic Yr 10 geography.
I'm just trying to put the correct facts out there are make sure they do not get distorted." Unquote

1012 hpa is classified as a Low still .
If hpa is below 1013 its called a Low .
If hpa is above 1013 its called a High .

These videos explain how to read synoptic charts .

<modsnip>

https://youtu.be/VWC6Xa1oTas

https://youtu.be/sbqZSzBgZjA

https://youtu.be/PAyGhrlDEiA

https://youtu.be/Z-OnM7bpmqk

 

[Pandit]

Which reminds me, I wonder if the police checked the hospitals, local clinics for anyone presenting with maybe a big bump on the top of their head, neck injury. Going over a drop and bounce risks smashing your head on the roof.

Okay, long shot but ..

Launching a car over a one metre drop would be less of a concern than trying to tip it over the groyne. If it was me aiming for the ocean, I would favour flying it over drop off with a bit of speed up and be pretty confident I'd get in the water fast with little risk to self and far less chance of being seen in the act.

 

[Canning Vale]

The West Australian July 8th 1988 Bizarre Case that has detectives stumped
... They only know it was found at Cottesloe beach two days later, floating in the surf with the ignition and lights turned on ...

The Daily Mail late June 1988. Police seek 2 in Car Puzzle by Steve Manchee

... Police forensic tests have shown that when the car entered the water the ignition and lights were turned on ...

IC,

Many thanks. I can see it now.

 

[Pandit]

Innerchild might be kind enough to try this one.

I've smashed a few cars and gone over a few big bumps back in the day but the technicalities in how I survived it all is beyond me.

Any physicists keen to calculate the speed the Fiat could gain travelling down the northern slope THEN how far the Fiat could travel (in air to landing on sand) at this calculated speed after launching off the raised platform?

We need to know how far a Fiat can jump and fly after running down a steep hill????


............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
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[Canning Vale]

I read the 1st article as stating the car entered the water with ignition and lights turned on... ie the switches were in the on position, not necessarily that the headlights were still shining and motor was still running.

Bunnie,

Thank you, I read the original article a couple of times. Then I could see the information within the second article.

 

[Canning Vale]

IMO the Fiat was launched into the ocean by travelling down the path/road on the northern side of the toilet/shower block (now Indiana Tea House). The slope is steeper here in north side so car got heaps more speed going down the hill. The distance to water line here is also shorter than southern end of toilet/shower block.

Plus the current travelling north to south along coast would easily place the Fiat in line with impacting the pylon. Hence the big round dents in side panels shown in those Channel 7 pics of the car.

IMO the Fiat went in on north side. Pretty obvious to me

There's no way logically the Fiat was driven off groyne or washed off by a rogue wave, and then magically swam against the current to be found where it was found.
............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

Spooks,

With regard to this theory, are you suggesting that the car accidentally rolled down the slope, or was driven. Meaning accidentally left out of gear.

 

[Spooks-R-Us]

Spooks,

With regard to this theory, are you suggesting that the car accidentally rolled down the slope, or was driven. Meaning accidentally left out of gear.

I haven't decided yet CV. I'd need to see photos of the northern side from 1988 to come up with an answer for you.



............................................
Posts my opinion unless source included. All my original text/images are my personal copyright and can't be reproduced outside of WebSleuths without my permission.
[emoji317][emoji317][emoji317]

 

[DRT]

Did a search on trove.nla.gov.au for photos of Cottesloe Beach. Aerial photo from 1987.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/11391566

http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/images/pd215/215403PD.jpg

There is also a view from 1996 to see how it has changed.

http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/images/pd137/137146PD.jpg

Also beach view from National Archives of Australia.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/161437400?q=cottesloe+beach&c=picture&versionId=175978794

 

[Pandit]

Apologies nn, I didn't see your original post either I wonder if it was the night when there seemed to be some lag in posts going up a couple of weeks or so ago.

Not familiar with the area, the infrastructure nor how it's changed over the years but this sounds pretty good. Somewhere north of the groyne, if a local says a car can get onto the beach there, I'm agreeable.

Photo to indicate the drop off when theres no sand drift - that section with the shower hasnt changed
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-in...langcode=en&saveQry=&editorial=1&t=0&edoptin=