BOESP,
Cancer treatment, may not be the only reason for Patsy sleeping in the guest room?
Molested with the handle?
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BOESP,
Cancer treatment, may not be the only reason for Patsy sleeping in the guest room?
You could be right but is it speculation or do you have information that suggests that is how it was? I don't have access to anything but public information plus personal experience with child protection issues. Based on that, I think Steve Thomas has the most viable theory. There may details he left out of his book but the simple version is Patsy and/or John wanted something and JonBenet didn't comply and it resulted in a horrendous moment of rage that killed JonBenet.
No matter where Patsy slept, I don't think the location plays an important part in solving the case but it could explain some of the evidence. I'd like to hear more from you about your idea/theory/speculation and how it relates to JonBenet's death. I know if I was married to John Ramsey I'd sleep in the guestroom. :slap:
The comments John supposedly made about saying "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry" and Patsy's "We didn't mean for this to happen" bother me. What importance, if any, would you place on these comments. TIA
BOESP,
Patsy and John, allegedly, had no love life since Patsy felt physically sick engaging in some acts, never mind the drug therapy removing any desire on her part. Various people Pasty is said to have confided in have been quoted on this notably LHP.
Also Patsy's public remarks about John not molesting JonBenet while she was in treatment, because Nedra slept close by, suggests Patsy is covering something up?
Patsy and John were not the only people to take a keen interest in JonBenet's pageant activities, Nedra and Grandfather assisted here too.
Not a great deal other than it appears they are tacitly acknowledging some involvement?
JMO8778
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JR also said "I regret,I regret..".What was it he regretted? To me it would seem to be something more ongoing, than just something that happened out of the blue that played a part in her death..(like incest,and not calling 911 for that reason(?) )
I'm also thinking that he may not have felt so guilty once he found out the head injury would have been fatal anyway.
I'm also thinking that he may not have felt so guilty once he found out the head injury would have been fatal anyway.
I've interpreted the "I regret" statement as John's effort at expressing a wish he'd stepped in long ago and put his foot down on the amount of time spent in pageantry. He did say that he put his foot down about JonBenet not appearing in a major pageant scheduled to be in Las Vegas. He said he didn't want his daughter on stage in that town (to his credit, in my opinion). I think John was occupied with his business and really had no idea how much went on in preparation for the pageants.
I have thought for a good long while about how/if Patsy and John were covering for each other. I wish more was known about exactly how Patsy cleaned and/or tried to humiliate JonBenet (if she did try humiliation) because variations on that type behavior could also leave physical evidence similar to digital penetration. I'm just not convinced John was abusing JonBenet. John comes across as a philanderer not a child molester, in my opinion. I can think of other scenarios that might explain Patsy covering for a molester, but I can't tie that idea to JonBenet's death and each parent covering for the other. I think John was protecting Burke and the Ramsey family image, but that's just my take on the whole ball of wax.
Ames
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I think that they did it , to make it more believable. Neighbors saw a flashlight beam....hmmmm...and THERES the FLASHLIGHT...wiped free of prints. The intruder must have wiped it down and left it behind. If they hadn't of wiped it clean...and left it out.....and the neighbors said that they had seen a beam, there would have been the chance that the police could have possibly said...."Well, Gee...is it possible that one of YOU were walking around with a flashlight last night?" The Rams figured that they wouldn't have been suspected...IF the flashlight was completely free of prints (the intruder wiped it down)...or IF it had of been left out in the open (the intruder just forgot it). Think about it...if you had of been one of the police...and the neighbors told you that they saw a beam in the kitchen, and you found a wiped clean of prints flashlight on the counter...right away, would you assume that the parents would use their OWN flashlight in a crime, WIPE it down, and replace it on the counter...OR would you...right away...assume that the intruder HAD to have left it there, wiped clean of prints. They were using psycology. In other words...IF a parent had of used a flashlight in the process of murdering their daughter, they wouldn't have wiped it down and left it out for the world to see...they would have put it back in the drawer where it came from, or disposed of it. BUT...if that parent was trying to pin it on an intruder...they would have taken it, wiped it clean..including the batteries... and left it out for the police to find.
Ames,
Sure that is possible, but do you think the investigators might ask why, when the intruder removed other items, the flashlight was wiped clean and left behind, when sticking it in your pocket accomplishes all that with less effort?
Ames
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I am sure that they DID ask why...and probably came to the conclusion that the intruder was trying to frame the Ramseys. I am quite sure that the Rams didn't think all of this through as they were frantically wiping it AND the batteries down, though....to collaberate (is that spelled right?)....the neighbors seeing a flashlight beam. We all know...well not ALL of us..but most of us know that an intruder did NOT do it....and that one of the Rams did. So, that means that one or both of them wiped down the flashlight and the batteries and placed it back on the counter. I don't know their reasoning behind it...other than, what I speculated. I think it was part of the staging.
Oh yeah, and what you said about sticking it in the intruder pockets...being SO much easier...is one of the main reasons that I know that there WASN'T and intruder. Because, that's exactly what he would have done....I mean, IF he was real.
Ames,
Of course there is no intruder, removal of forensic traces, rather than the object containing them is a classic mistake of staged crime-scenes?
Another thought is the double bluff, where the Ramsey's speculate that if an intruder had notionally used the flashlight then there should be forensic traces, even if only smudges from gloves, so they wiped it clean to avoid showing this to be false e.g. no intruder traces!
JMO8778
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maglites are huge though,and very heavy(except for the smaller ones),with a long handle (granted,I don't know exactly what size that one was),but just sticking one in your pocket isn't usually easily accomplished.
JMO8778
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could be,I see it as something deeper and more immediate to her death though.Or that he could have regretted not getting Patsy some help for her temper,ie-I think that's why the Xmas video disappeared;Patsy lost it over JB not liking the doll,and that was just a sign of things to come.(and,he didn't recognize the signs).
I wonder if the photo on her camera was taken of JB as a threat to humiliate her,one that wouldn't have been carried out,but something like 'I'm going to show this pic of you to all your friends if you don't stop it !'
you could be right,it's just that JR's own words in DOI and his fiber evidence cause me to think further on that.
BOESP,
You certain he said that, or was he quoted as saying that, sounds very much like a parental reference , after the fact, similar to the Nedra was there one?
Wiping the flashlight of prints is something that would be expected of both an intruder and the Rs.
Wiping the BATTERIES of prints as well is something that ONLY the Rs would have done. There would be no reason for an intruder to do this- they did not put the batteries in....unless anyone is silly enough to believe an intruder brought extra batteries with them in case the ones in the flashlight were dead (which an intruder would not have known the Rs had nor what kinds of batteries it would use). Boy, that "intruder" must have had a good place to hide the U-Haul truck they would have needed to bring in everything the Rs said didn't belong to them.
Wiping the BATTERIES of prints as well is something that ONLY the Rs would have done. There would be no reason for an intruder to do this- they did not put the batteries in....unless anyone is silly enough to believe an intruder brought extra batteries with them in case the ones in the flashlight were dead (which an intruder would not have known the Rs had nor what kinds of batteries it would use). Boy, that "intruder" must have had a good place to hide the U-Haul truck they would have needed to bring in everything the Rs said didn't belong to them.
No, I'm not certain he said it. You may be correct in that someone was quoting him. I wish I could remember if it was in DOI (per Patsy) or in PMPT. I probably shouldn't have brought it up since I can't remember where I read it. :blushing:
I'm not familiar with "Nedra was there."
Do you think the photo that Patsy was questioned about that isn't clearly identified in the interview is an improper photo of JonBenet? I hadn't thought of that but that could be an excellent possibility.
JMO8778
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something's amiss with it,the part where she says 'it shows everything' and denies taking the photo, I take to mean there couldn't be much else it could be.
JMO8778
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I recall he said it as well.
UK is talking about the time Patsy was questioned about whether JR could have been abusing JB,and she said she'd 'thought about that',but that her mother had slept in JB's room with her and wouldn't have allowed it.WEIRD answer.
I am thinking about the molestation and the staging to cover it up. I have mixed feelings about the sexual aspect of it. I have NO doubt that there was vaginal trauma, both chronic and acute. But let's suppose PR was regularly using a douche on JBR, whether as "corporal cleansing" (i.e. punishment) or to cleanse the vaginal canal of feces from her frequent soiling. How does this scenario sound to you:
The family returns home from the White's. JBR walks into the house (as per BR's statement). PR is tired and stressed, having had a few glasses of wine, and in no mood for JBR's crankiness, as well as having to complete preparations for a trip she did not want to make, and a very early start the next day. PR was aggravated with JBR already, as she had snubbed the "crown jewel" of her Christmas presents- the MyTwinn doll. And she had refused to wear the outfit PR wanted her to wear that day.
JBR wanted a snack before bed; she was already changed into the long johns. PR didn't really want to give her anything to eat because of the toileting issues and bedwetting, but JBR whines and so she and possibly BR share a pineapple snack. The kids go to bed. PR still has lots of stuff to do. But when she goes to JBR to get her to go to the bathroom, (interesting- that although this WAS her usual rountine, PR claims she did not do it that night- distancing again?) she finds that JBR has already soiled/wet the bed, so an exhausted PR adds the clean up of her daughter and the bed to the list of chores for the night. NOW, she must do laundry, as the soiled sheets would be sitting for the 10-day vacation.
She drags a resistant JBR into her bathroom, where JBR struggles, spilling the container of hairties all over the floor. PR uses the douche again, but this time, because she is tired/stressed/aggravated/tipsy she uses too much force, causing JBR to bleed, and JBR screams in pain. PR reacts by grabbing her around the neck, violently twisting her shirt and slamming her HARD into the sink or tub edge, maybe several times, causing the horrible fracture that causes her to lose consciousness immediately. It happens in a split-second, and her daughter is gone (or so she believes).
Though the altercation with her daughter is noisy, BR and JR, if they heard it, pay no mind because a bathroom commotion has happened before.
The realization that she has accidentaly killed her daughter sets off a panic, and she races to get her husband. He is horrified too, but as the two panicked parents decide what to do next, they do not call 911 because they believe she is already dead anyway. Instead, they decide to make it look like a kidnapping/murder. They can't bring themselves to face whatever consequences there would be to an accidental killing. PR is still in fear of her cancer returning, and BR is still young, they can't bear the thought that she'd face even accidental homicide charges. PR writes the note. They have to make it look like she was killed by the kidnappers. I believe THIS is why the Rs so blatantly violated the terms of the RN- to make it look like she was killed because they disobeyed orders and called police (and half the town).
Although they believe the blow to the head killed her, there is no apparent injury from that, so they need to have a cause of death that is immediately apparent. JBR's neck has by now red marks where PR twisted the shirt, so they decide to make the cause of death appear to be a strangulation. They use either bleach or peroxide to wash away the blood in the bathroom (which still smelled of the chemical when LE arrived). JBR is taken to the basement, to prevent BR from seeing anything if he woke up. JR carries her down the spiral stairs, and some of the fake needles from the garland get in her hair. PR's paint tote is right there, where LHP had put it before the Dec.23 party. They use cord and tape her mouth to make it seem more plausible, not realizing that forensic specialists could tell that the lips they covered never moved, snap the paintbrush in pieces, using one for the garotte. The splinter found in the vagina was put there accidentally when the one who snapped the paintbrush attempted to clean the inside of her vagina to be sure all the blood was wiped away. (some traces were found at autopsy, as well as evidence her thighs had been wiped down). The panties she had been wearing, though pulled down or removed for the douching, were stained with blood that had seeped, so PR replaced them with the identical, though different size, panties that she had bought for a niece and were also right there in the basement, wrapped up to be given. The gifts are unwrapped until the panties are found. They do not think about the size, it is just important that the panties be the same in case anyone at the White's had helped her with toileting, as often occurred, and remembered them.
The garotte had to be pulled tight enough to make it look like she was really strangled, but because she was still alive (though barely- her breathing was so shallow as to be imperceptible) the petechiae and ligature furrow occur, but they unwittingly do not pull it tight enough to cause the expected trauma to the internal structured of the throat. Post-mortem urine release occurs. There is very little urine, as JBR's bedwetting had occurred previously. The long johns were already wet from the original bedwetting. They do nothing, because they do not have another pair of the same panties, and JBR was a well-know bedwetter anyway.
They cannot bear to look at her. They remove the white banket from the basement dryer, which was where PR had placed it, probably Christmas Eve. (LHP reported that she did not come to the R home either Dec.24 OR 25th, but last changed the sheets Dec 23. She also said the sheets on the bed in the crime photos were not the ones she made the bed with, so PR must have washed those sheets and the blanket herself, leaving it in the dryer as she was too busy to put it back on the bed Christmas day.) This makes sense, as there were certainly spare sheets for her bed, but she had only one special white blanket. PR made the bed up herslef with clean sheets, but left the blanket in the dryer- this is also indicated by the look of the bed in crime photos- unmade, but the foot of the bed is neat and there is no blanket seen on the unmade bed.
They wrap JBR in the blanket, leaving her for dead. Adrenaline carries them through this horrible night. As dawn arrives, and the inevitable meeting with the pilot at the airport for the trip, time runs out and the 911 call is made at the last possible moment. Showtime.
The family returns home from the White's. JBR walks into the house (as per BR's statement). PR is tired and stressed, having had a few glasses of wine, and in no mood for JBR's crankiness, as well as having to complete preparations for a trip she did not want to make, and a very early start the next day. PR was aggravated with JBR already, as she had snubbed the "crown jewel" of her Christmas presents- the MyTwinn doll. And she had refused to wear the outfit PR wanted her to wear that day.
JBR wanted a snack before bed; she was already changed into the long johns. PR didn't really want to give her anything to eat because of the toileting issues and bedwetting, but JBR whines and so she and possibly BR share a pineapple snack. The kids go to bed. PR still has lots of stuff to do. But when she goes to JBR to get her to go to the bathroom, (interesting- that although this WAS her usual rountine, PR claims she did not do it that night- distancing again?) she finds that JBR has already soiled/wet the bed, so an exhausted PR adds the clean up of her daughter and the bed to the list of chores for the night. NOW, she must do laundry, as the soiled sheets would be sitting for the 10-day vacation.
She drags a resistant JBR into her bathroom, where JBR struggles, spilling the container of hairties all over the floor. PR uses the douche again, but this time, because she is tired/stressed/aggravated/tipsy she uses too much force, causing JBR to bleed, and JBR screams in pain. PR reacts by grabbing her around the neck, violently twisting her shirt and slamming her HARD into the sink or tub edge, maybe several times, causing the horrible fracture that causes her to lose consciousness immediately. It happens in a split-second, and her daughter is gone (or so she believes).
Though the altercation with her daughter is noisy, BR and JR, if they heard it, pay no mind because a bathroom commotion has happened before.
The realization that she has accidentaly killed her daughter sets off a panic, and she races to get her husband. He is horrified too, but as the two panicked parents decide what to do next, they do not call 911 because they believe she is already dead anyway. Instead, they decide to make it look like a kidnapping/murder. They can't bring themselves to face whatever consequences there would be to an accidental killing. PR is still in fear of her cancer returning, and BR is still young, they can't bear the thought that she'd face even accidental homicide charges. PR writes the note. They have to make it look like she was killed by the kidnappers. I believe THIS is why the Rs so blatantly violated the terms of the RN- to make it look like she was killed because they disobeyed orders and called police (and half the town).
Although they believe the blow to the head killed her, there is no apparent injury from that, so they need to have a cause of death that is immediately apparent. JBR's neck has by now red marks where PR twisted the shirt, so they decide to make the cause of death appear to be a strangulation. They use either bleach or peroxide to wash away the blood in the bathroom (which still smelled of the chemical when LE arrived). JBR is taken to the basement, to prevent BR from seeing anything if he woke up. JR carries her down the spiral stairs, and some of the fake needles from the garland get in her hair. PR's paint tote is right there, where LHP had put it before the Dec.23 party. They use cord and tape her mouth to make it seem more plausible, not realizing that forensic specialists could tell that the lips they covered never moved, snap the paintbrush in pieces, using one for the garotte. The splinter found in the vagina was put there accidentally when the one who snapped the paintbrush attempted to clean the inside of her vagina to be sure all the blood was wiped away. (some traces were found at autopsy, as well as evidence her thighs had been wiped down). The panties she had been wearing, though pulled down or removed for the douching, were stained with blood that had seeped, so PR replaced them with the identical, though different size, panties that she had bought for a niece and were also right there in the basement, wrapped up to be given. The gifts are unwrapped until the panties are found. They do not think about the size, it is just important that the panties be the same in case anyone at the White's had helped her with toileting, as often occurred, and remembered them.
The garotte had to be pulled tight enough to make it look like she was really strangled, but because she was still alive (though barely- her breathing was so shallow as to be imperceptible) the petechiae and ligature furrow occur, but they unwittingly do not pull it tight enough to cause the expected trauma to the internal structured of the throat. Post-mortem urine release occurs. There is very little urine, as JBR's bedwetting had occurred previously. The long johns were already wet from the original bedwetting. They do nothing, because they do not have another pair of the same panties, and JBR was a well-know bedwetter anyway.
They cannot bear to look at her. They remove the white banket from the basement dryer, which was where PR had placed it, probably Christmas Eve. (LHP reported that she did not come to the R home either Dec.24 OR 25th, but last changed the sheets Dec 23. She also said the sheets on the bed in the crime photos were not the ones she made the bed with, so PR must have washed those sheets and the blanket herself, leaving it in the dryer as she was too busy to put it back on the bed Christmas day.) This makes sense, as there were certainly spare sheets for her bed, but she had only one special white blanket. PR made the bed up herslef with clean sheets, but left the blanket in the dryer- this is also indicated by the look of the bed in crime photos- unmade, but the foot of the bed is neat and there is no blanket seen on the unmade bed.
They wrap JBR in the blanket, leaving her for dead. Adrenaline carries them through this horrible night. As dawn arrives, and the inevitable meeting with the pilot at the airport for the trip, time runs out and the 911 call is made at the last possible moment. Showtime.
JMO8778
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that's great Dee Dee ! Only think I would think to change is that the housekeeper was due to come the next day (remember Patsy was supposed to leave a check out for her..which she didn't..another reason I think she never made it to bed that night),so she could have just put the sheets in the dirty laundry for the housekeeper to do the next day,if she'd wanted to.
Sometimes I wonder if there was more to it than just bedwetting/soiling issues that set her off.
Patsy was described as being such a sloppy housekeeper,that it makes me wonder why she would even bother to have the sheets and all in the wash the next morning,by the time the housekeeper arrived.was she possibly trying to hide something by doing that? perhaps JB had frequent bleeding or oozing injuries from corporal cleaning?
Sometimes I wonder if there was more to it than just bedwetting/soiling issues that set her off.
Patsy was described as being such a sloppy housekeeper,that it makes me wonder why she would even bother to have the sheets and all in the wash the next morning,by the time the housekeeper arrived.was she possibly trying to hide something by doing that? perhaps JB had frequent bleeding or oozing injuries from corporal cleaning?