Japan - Miyazawa family of 4 murdered, Setagaya, Tokyo, 30 Dec 2000 #2

[fridaybaker]

We can go over the noise problem ‘til the cows come home, as they say, and I’m not sure it will ever get us anywhere, sadly.

To continue on, however, I will say this: Aside from decibel levels, neighbors sleeping vs. being awake, adequate or inadequate soundproofing, etc., there HAD to have been a significant “ruckus”. There were three people literally slaughtered, and they couldn’t all have been killed at once. There was much commotion at the Miyazawa’s that night, and that is a fact.

So strange that no one saw anything. No shadows in the windows, caught by passersby? No vibrations, screams, knocking against walls heard by the neighbors?

It is VERY odd, in my book.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

We can go over the noise problem ‘til the cows come home, as they say, and I’m not sure it will ever get us anywhere, sadly.

To continue on, however, I will say this: Aside from decibel levels, neighbors sleeping vs. being awake, adequate or inadequate soundproofing, etc., there HAD to have been a significant “ruckus”. There were three people literally slaughtered, and they couldn’t all have been killed at once. There was much commotion at the Miyazawa’s that night, and that is a fact.

So strange that no one saw anything. No shadows in the windows, caught by passersby? No vibrations, screams, knocking against walls heard by the neighbors?

It is VERY odd, in my book.

Yes, hard agree. In terms of nobody seeing anything. There’s 2-3 ‘witnesses’ on the night of the murder. One was a man who jumped in front of a woman’s car but this was actually at the time of the murders themselves, I think. At any rate, this was definitively discounted. The woman’s car was also tested. Zilch.

The second was a taxi driver who had three men in his cab acting strangely, one of which who bled. This later turned out to be chocolate.

Finally we have the Tobu-Nikko man with the hand injury.

None were the killer, it seems. Certainly, I think the Chief discounts them all. The last one is the biggest question mark in my mind as I believe it took several days for detectives to go out there from Tokyo.

 

[Janitor101]

It isn't much of a stretch to imagine a panicked Yasuko and Nina sobbing, screaming and otherwise making a great deal of noise as they descended down the ladder. I recall reading that the little girl, Nina, had lost several of her front teeth during that final struggle. The killer may have begun to pummel them in order to control and quiet them down as quickly as possible.

On the other hand, the killer could have simply became enraged when he discovered the wife and daughter attempting to escape upon his return from the kitchen.

It seems strange to me that little Rei suffered the least amount of injury when compared to that of the rest of the family. This leads me to believe that he had known the family in some way prior to the murders.

 

[Incoherent]

Interestingly, going back to the 50 minute gap between Haruko discovering the bodies and the police being called, this source states it was not Haruko that called but it was actually a male relative that called.

Quick points translation:

The call came in to 110 at 10:56am.
The person who was calling lived next to the Miyazawas (a relative).
The call was 3 minutes and 40 seconds and a man was trying to explain the situation, with his family screaming and crying in the background.
Finally he couldn’t answer anymore questions and said “I don’t know anymore, I’m sorry for being so distraught, I can’t do it (answer anymore)”

If accurate it makes more sense why the time gap was 50 minutes and Haruko wasn’t able to do much in a timely manner.

Source only in Japanese sorry.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Personally I've never questioned that there would have been noises, quite possibly loud noises, during the murders. I only question exactly what would be heard next door, and whether you would hear as much as a lot of people seem to expect.

If the Iries insist they only heard a single bang, yet the TMPD think they must have heard more, it seems like we have to conclude either that the Iries are lying or the TMPD are wrong.

If the Iries heard more but don't want to say so, then they're lying, whether for innocent or nefarious reasons. If there is any chance at all that the Iries really didn't hear anything else, whether because of soundproofing, being asleep, background Tokyo noise or something else, then the TMPD and the Chief must be wrong.

Logically I can't see how it's anything else than one or the other. Short of arresting the Iries for obstruction, I also don't see what could be done about it.

 

[dms]

It seems strange to me that little Rei suffered the least amount of injury when compared to that of the rest of the family. This leads me to believe that he had known the family in some way prior to the murders.

Why is that?

 

[Charlot123]

Great post, @jepop. To be clear, it is not my opinion that it makes no sense that nobody screams. I have no idea. It is that the Chief / LE frankly do not believe that nothing was heard. This is not off the back of simple suspicion. It is based on questioning the family at length / acoustic experiments in the houses. It may well be that the Miyazawas were all silent themselves. With respect to the murders you mention, I find it hard to imagine that Yasuko, as he returned with the carving knife, did not beg him to spare the life of her child. Or not screaming at the agony that followed. But that’s neither here nor there. What matters: the Chief does not believe that events could play out as they did without anyone hearing anything next door. That’s the struggles, the falling down the stairs, the attacks in the attic and on the landing, so on, so forth.

So, we’re free to assume he / his colleagues are wrong. It is simply that I am yet to see one single solid reason to assume this.

If the Tokyo PD conducted experiments that showed that some sounds of the struggle should have been heard, and yet everyone in Irie’s house stated they heard nothing, it would be interesting to understand what explanation TMPD offered to themselves to explain what was happening in Irie’s house that night and mainly, why, considering that the Iries might have somewhat bent the truth, they were uninvolved in the murders.

I think this fact, that the Iries ought to have heard the noises, and yet they state that they didn’t, indicated how little we know about the lives of both families, the Iries and the Miyazawas. Were they functional and self-reliant, or the opposite? No one can tell. I assume TMPD knows a lot. If they chose to zero in on a foreigner might simply mean that they know far more than they choose to disclose.

 

[Charlot123]

OK here is one theory why the 13-year-old might have not heard much.

The Wacky World of VR in the 80s and 90s

These VR pioneers didn't mind looking ridiculous while advancing the state of the art.

www.pcmag.com

Gaming in the headphones. I had to Google what the gamers of the 90es used, and having read the article, I can imagine that if An’s son were a gamer, he could be totally oblivious to the sounds.

With An, as I have said, the two versions that instantly come to mind are mundane and neither makes her a poi. Just think of the statement: “I was in the house next door.” “I didn’t hear anything”. It is obvious what instantly jumps to mind.

 

[Charlot123]

Interestingly, going back to the 50 minute gap between Haruko discovering the bodies and the police being called, this source states it was not Haruko that called but it was actually a male relative that called.

Quick points translation:

The call came in to 110 at 10:56am.
The person who was calling lived next to the Miyazawas (a relative).
The call was 3 minutes and 40 seconds and a man was trying to explain the situation, with his family screaming and crying in the background.
Finally he couldn’t answer anymore questions and said “I don’t know anymore, I’m sorry for being so distraught, I can’t do it (answer anymore)”

If accurate it makes more sense why the time gap was 50 minutes and Haruko wasn’t able to do much in a timely manner.

Source only in Japanese sorry.

Do we know who was at the Iries’ house that night? Haruko, An and An’s son, I thought. Was her husband also at home, or in GB?

- I have noticed that the uncertainty, actually, starts with that morning call. Haruko doesn’t remember if the door to Miyazawa’s house was locked/just closed/ajar. She doesn’t remember if she had to come back to own house and fetch a key to Miyazawa’s house, or not.

I would like to know if the key to Miyazawa’s house was on the same keychain as Haruko’s key to own house, or whether the two keys were kept separately. To me, it makes sense that she takes the keychain with all keys, gets out, locks own door and opens Miyazawa’s door, but maybe not so?

And if the Miyazawas’ key was kept separately, it it possible that it was merely stolen by a visitor to their house, and she didn’t notice it?

(Honestly, I was wondering if Haruko was merely becoming forgetful, but given that she lived 20+ more years, it is unlikely.)

Thinking of the reaction to the bodies, my first thought would be, Haruko probably immediately ran out of the house, but given that it was her own daughter, I would not exclude the opposite reaction - trying to see if she could help.

 

[Incoherent]

Do we know who was at the Iries’ house that night? Haruko, An and An’s son, I thought. Was her husband also at home, or in GB?

Yes, the husband was there too. The article mentions a 51 year old male relative making the call.

I think this gives us more insight into the timing of the call and the probabilities of what may have happened leading up to it.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

It feels like a lot of assumptions in this case are somewhat contradictory.

For example, the belief that the Iries must have heard more than they admitted to hearing. Let's run with that. Anybody who has argued that the murders must have been noisy, and that the Iries' story doesn't make sense (including the TMPD and the Chief), must logically believe they're not telling the truth. And yet no action has been taken against them.

If they heard more, then they're lying. They're hiding something. It could be absolutely anything, and they could have a million reasons for not wanting to talk, but they're hiding *something*. So, they're hiding something. Why, then, do we assume the delay in calling LE was totally innocent when we already believe the Iries have lied about other things?

The Chief may not have any concerns about the delay, but presumably he's not infallible.

I'm interested to know if the TMPD found any evidence that the Iries had moved anything before LE got there. The killer ransacked the house, seemingly looking for something. In other cases, a common reason for delays in calling the police is that the people who first find the crime scene are also trying to find or hide something before LE get there.

I'm not accusing the Iries of anything. I just think that if there's agreement their story doesn't make sense, it's worthwhile to question *everything* they've said.

 

[Sillybilly]

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[vls12345]

The bathroom window was open, almost certainly. The fly screen was removed. We don’t know if this was the killer but if so, it’s possible he was considering entering that way. There were also footprints on the ground beneath the window. However, there is no evidence showing he did enter that way. There would’ve been footprints almost certainly (with mud on them) as per the reconstruction posted by Incoherent.

Do any of the police reports or info you have mention mud from the killer's shoes at all? Especially around any potential entrance location (bathroom window, door into Rei's room, or the front door). Since the killer kept his shoes on, surely there was at least one partial footprint that may have had mud/dirt.

Could An's family have heard noises but dismissed them as coming from the tv in the Miyazawa home? And then maybe had survivor's guilt?

 

[Incoherent]

Do any of the police reports or info you have mention mud from the killer's shoes at all? Especially around any potential entrance location (bathroom window, door into Rei's room, or the front door). Since the killer kept his shoes on, surely there was at least one partial footprint that may have had mud/dirt.

I seem to remember when reading Monazite’s blog he had an article that said there were some muddy footprints either close to or in Rei’s bedroom I think. I’d have to go and dig again for it though, or maybe Nic has the accurate answer!

 

[Charlot123]

It feels like a lot of assumptions in this case are somewhat contradictory.

For example, the belief that the Iries must have heard more than they admitted to hearing. Let's run with that. Anybody who has argued that the murders must have been noisy, and that the Iries' story doesn't make sense (including the TMPD and the Chief), must logically believe they're not telling the truth. And yet no action has been taken against them.

If they heard more, then they're lying. They're hiding something. It could be absolutely anything, and they could have a million reasons for not wanting to talk, but they're hiding *something*. So, they're hiding something. Why, then, do we assume the delay in calling LE was totally innocent when we already believe the Iries have lied about other things?

The Chief may not have any concerns about the delay, but presumably he's not infallible.

I'm interested to know if the TMPD found any evidence that the Iries had moved anything before LE got there. The killer ransacked the house, seemingly looking for something. In other cases, a common reason for delays in calling the police is that the people who first find the crime scene are also trying to find or hide something before LE get there.

I'm not accusing the Iries of anything. I just think that if there's agreement their story doesn't make sense, it's worthwhile to question *everything* they've said.

Thank you very much, @Incoherent, for explaining that An's husband was in the house. That crosses one of my personal theories off my list.

People might be "less than perfect witnesses in a criminal investigation", and yet innocent.

- per TMPD, one person was in Miyazawa's house, one person left tons of DNA, one person killed them. TMPD was probably "inexperienced with murders, but willing to learn". I suspect they collected a lot of information and perhaps somehow "drowned" in it, because lack of experience = you can't rely on own intuition. At the same time, since they have extended the time of criminal responsibility, their perfectionism will probably serve them and the case well now, if/when they finally get the courage and break through "the DNA barrier." (They have to, in view of new immigration laws, and the sooner, the better for Japan - JMO.)

- if it was one person and his DNA did not match the ones from the Iries' house, this rules them out as the suspects. Let us accept this.

- About the rest. Can a person sleep through that night/not hear the murders? It is possible. I have several very trivial explanations and i can accept this. In fact, I would not be surprised if Haruko was the first to get up that morning, either.

That morning, though...everywhere, in any country, this family, the neighbors would inevitably end up being high on the suspects list. This is not the situation I wish upon anyone. Let this sink in, too. How they felt the "morning after". Hysterical, grieving and scared.

Worst of all? IRL, if you sleep through the murders, you can account only for yourself. What about other people in your family? Sadly, you slept through their movements, too.

So...I don't think anyone lied. But i think that everyone, subconsciously or consciously, was protecting other family members. I think they all were finally cleared for a good reason, and felt relieved when it happened, but it took some time to clear them.

And btw, if they don't know who did it, and I think they don't, they might still be living in fear for themselves. What if the killer, indeed, confused the houses?

One more reason for TMPD to do consider DNA criminology.

 

[Charlot123]

It isn't much of a stretch to imagine a panicked Yasuko and Nina sobbing, screaming and otherwise making a great deal of noise as they descended down the ladder. I recall reading that the little girl, Nina, had lost several of her front teeth during that final struggle. The killer may have begun to pummel them in order to control and quiet them down as quickly as possible.

On the other hand, the killer could have simply became enraged when he discovered the wife and daughter attempting to escape upon his return from the kitchen.

It seems strange to me that little Rei suffered the least amount of injury when compared to that of the rest of the family. This leads me to believe that he had known the family in some way prior to the murders.

Observed from a distance, perhaps?

Since we haven't ruled out the chance of the killer being the animal-torturer, and I haven't, (maybe not the poster of those ugly things on pet boards, but someone doing it in the Setagaya park), could the person have come to progress to a child?

Another possibility - I looked at the photos from that evening. They seem to be made on an instant camera. I checked - the Polaroid went out of business in 2000, maybe Fujifilm still was making them?

Does anyone know if instant cameras were still popular in Japan in 2000es?

Could it be possible that the thing the murderer was searching for was a photo? His photo?

 

[Incoherent]

Another possibility - I looked at the photos from that evening. They seem to be made on an instant camera. I checked - the Polaroid went out of business in 2000, maybe Fujifilm still was making them?

Does anyone know if instant cameras were still popular in Japan in 2000es?

Could it be possible that the thing the murderer was searching for was a photo? His photo?

Re: searching for something, here’s an image of what the bathtub was found like. The image is from an official TMPD DVD released on the murder and is super bad quality.

I wonder if someone here could maybe enhance it somehow to make it clearer? I’m no good at that!



According to Monazite the things listed as dumped in the bathtub are:
Yasuko’s cram-school documents
The contents of Yasuko’s wallet
Mikio’s work documents and receipts
One of the towels used to stop the killer’s bleeding
One of the ice cream cups
Various flyers
Various family certificates

A lot of it has been ripped up and thrown in. Monazite also says there were other things in there in addition.

It certainly does appear as though the killer was looking for something.

In addition here is what some of the drawers looked like, again taken from the TMPD DVD:



Thoughts?

 

[Justoneoftheguests]

I know there were no drugs found in the killers system but is it possible he was looking for drugs?

 

[Janitor101]

Thank you very much, @Incoherent, for explaining that An's husband was in the house. That crosses one of my personal theories off my list.

People might be "less than perfect witnesses in a criminal investigation", and yet innocent.

- per TMPD, one person was in Miyazawa's house, one person left tons of DNA, one person killed them. TMPD was probably "inexperienced with murders, but willing to learn". I suspect they collected a lot of information and perhaps somehow "drowned" in it, because lack of experience = you can't rely on own intuition. At the same time, since they have extended the time of criminal responsibility, their perfectionism will probably serve them and the case well now, if/when they finally get the courage and break through "the DNA barrier." (They have to, in view of new immigration laws, and the sooner, the better for Japan - JMO.)

- if it was one person and his DNA did not match the ones from the Iries' house, this rules them out as the suspects. Let us accept this.

- About the rest. Can a person sleep through that night/not hear the murders? It is possible. I have several very trivial explanations and i can accept this. In fact, I would not be surprised if Haruko was the first to get up that morning, either.

That morning, though...everywhere, in any country, this family, the neighbors would inevitably end up being high on the suspects list. This is not the situation I wish upon anyone. Let this sink in, too. How they felt the "morning after". Hysterical, grieving and scared.

Worst of all? IRL, if you sleep through the murders, you can account only for yourself. What about other people in your family? Sadly, you slept through their movements, too.

So...I don't think anyone lied. But i think that everyone, subconsciously or consciously, was protecting other family members. I think they all were finally cleared for a good reason, and felt relieved when it happened, but it took some time to clear them.

And btw, if they don't know who did it, and I think they don't, they might still be living in fear for themselves. What if the killer, indeed, confused the houses?

One more reason for TMPD to do consider DNA criminology.

Do Japanese citizens upload their DNA into databases in much the same way as other countries do? I'm asking because of how much the Japanese value their privacy and so forth.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

Just to be absolutely clear, I don't think the Iries are guilty of anything more than, perhaps, wanting to protect the Miyazawas privacy and dignity.

But.

If, as the TMPD think, it makes no sense that the Iries didn't hear anything, then they would have to be lying when they say they didn't hear anything. They're either telling the truth as they remember it or they're not. I find the Iries story quite believable, but others seemingly don't.

Personally I think it's quite possible they slept through the whole thing exactly as they say they did, and have spent the last few pages trying to defend the idea that they might not have heard anything.