Are the Ramseys involved or not?

[BBB167893]

I didn't realise that. So terrorism and antipathy from foreigners would be at the forefront of the RN-writer's mind if they had even a passing interest in current affairs.

That's what I've been trying to say.

Actually, "passing interest" is right. See, I'm of the mind that the writer of the ransom letter WANTED to name a specific Islamist group, but just didn't know how to spell it. And before anyone jumps on that, let me remind you folks that the gov't can't keep it straight half the time!

Example: is it "Osama bin Laden" or "Usama bin Laden?" Is it "Hezbollah," or "Hizbollah" or "Hizbullah" or "Hezb'ollah?" Because I've seen it spelled all of those ways!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I would dare say it's more thorough than chopping the RN up like a cow in a slaughterhouse.

I could characterize this approach as the RDI Potluck. Nobody cares whats in it as long as its RDI.

Besides, at least by taking the RN at literal value, you get an actual profile of the RN author. He is a foreign male commander of a faction. He uses execution-related expressions like 'immediate execution' and 'beheading'. He had help. He doesn't respect the US and threatened to kill 'fat cats'. If true, that would make the JBR murder an across-the-border crime of what sort?

That's what I've been trying to say.

Actually, "passing interest" is right. See, I'm of the mind that the writer of the ransom letter WANTED to name a specific Islamist group, but just didn't know how to spell it. And before anyone jumps on that, let me remind you folks that the gov't can't keep it straight half the time!

Example: is it "Osama bin Laden" or "Usama bin Laden?" Is it "Hezbollah," or "Hizbollah" or "Hizbullah" or "Hezb'ollah?" Because I've seen it spelled all of those ways!

Were you confused on the SBTC part? I mean, its common for a terror group to use an acronym. Very common.

Why wouldn't PR write PLO, is that hard to spell?

Incidentally, I don't think SBTC was a terror group anyway. Its more like a credit or acknowledgement, I think.

 

[BBB167893]

I could characterize this approach as the RDI Potluck. Nobody cares whats in it as long as its RDI.

HOTYH, tell me something: are you at all familiar with Paul Simon's song "The Boxer?"

Besides, at least by taking the RN at literal value, you get an actual
profile of the RN author.

Actually, HOTYH, several profiles of the author have been done. But I don't think you'll LIKE them!

Were you confused on the SBTC part? I mean, its common for a terror group to use an acronym. Very common.

Confused? At first, I admit I was very confused about a lot of things. So, perhaps.

Why wouldn't PR write PLO, is that hard to spell?

It goes back to what I was saying earlier, HOTYH: the author wanted to leave some wiggle-room to hedge their bets. Thus, the killer can be anything they want it to be. And it's not just the RN that does this, not by a damn sight. The whole crime reeks of this "covering all bases" approach.

Incidentally, I don't think SBTC was a terror group anyway. Its more like a credit or acknowledgement, I think.

Finally, something we agree on.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

HOTYH, tell me something: are you at all familiar with Paul Simon's song "The Boxer?"

Uh, what about my question? I asked about the type of crime it would be if the RN were factual?

 

[DeeDee249]

Uh, what about my question? I asked about the type of crime it would be if the RN were factual?

I think that would be hard to classify because the note itself indicated two opposing scenarios. One- a kidnapping, where delivery of (or at least an indication of) a live victim is needed for ransom and in this case the kidnapper(s) killed their victim and left her right there with the parents.
OR a murder, committed by either a pedophile or a revenge killer. In that case, a ransom note or ransom itself is neither needed nor wanted. The death of the child was in and of itself what was wanted. In that case, the body wouldn't have been redressed, wiped down, or covered up, and if a pedophile, unless the perp was prepubescent, there would likely have been semen found at the crime scene.
If it was a kidnaping that went "bad", resulting in unintended death, then there was no need to stage a crime, redress the body, cover her up and doubtful the body would have been left in the home anyway. She would have been removed and the body buried or abandoned.
So to have a ransom note that suggests one thing (kidnapping) but is in fact, another (strangulation murder/sexual assault) is one good way to know that it is a fake. That, and of course, that fact that it is written in PR's handwriting.

 

[BBB167893]

Uh, what about my question? I asked about the type of crime it would be if the RN were factual?

That bit about "The Boxer" was not in referrence to your question, HOTYH. It was a receipt for your "potluck" jab.

But, to show I'm not a rotten guy, I'll play along. Okay, for the sake of argument, let's say the RN WAS factual. If everything in it was as it appears, I can't really say that I could go against your take on it.

That cover it?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

That bit about "The Boxer" was not in referrence to your question, HOTYH. It was a receipt for your "potluck" jab.

But, to show I'm not a rotten guy, I'll play along. Okay, for the sake of argument, let's say the RN WAS factual. If everything in it was as it appears, I can't really say that I could go against your take on it.

That cover it?

Well, sort of but not quite.

Crossing borders to commit a crime against a child? Threatening other 'fat cats', and refering to the US in a less than respectful way? Is it an international crime, and if so what type?

 

[BBB167893]

Well, sort of but not quite.

Crossing borders to commit a crime against a child? Threatening other 'fat cats', and refering to the US in a less than respectful way? Is it an international crime, and if so what type?

That's a little out of my experience. All I can think of is "Not Without My Daughter."

 

[Ames]

Holdon, Patsy only scored a 4.5...not a perfect 5...on the handwriting comparisons to the RN. If you know for certain that she didn't write the RN, why didn't she score a 5? That would have COMPLETELY cleared her...and the 4.5 was from the Ramsey's own hired "experts". So even THEY couldn't completely clear Patsy as the RN author.

From Larry King Intervew:


P. RAMSEY: John's definitively was cleared. And I scored a 4.5 out of 5. Five is definitely no match, and it just..."

 

[Tadpole12]

I have always thought that the letter looked to be Patsy all over and I really don't think that anyone outside the house wrote the note. However, in fairness to HOTYH, I must say that one thing gave me pause when I first saw this note. One of the Dollar signs looks like it started as a Pound sign. I worked in an investment bank during college vacations in the mid-90s and had to fax/e mail details of transactions to the New York branches quite often. More often than not, I'd start writing a Pound sign then remember to change it to Dollar - and the resulting scrawl looked very much like that sign in the RN.

Hi Sophie. Ya HMMMM, thanks for that interesting tidbit re Pound notes and your personal experience.
Everything but the kitchen sink in that rn.

Tadpole, your frame of reference is enormous! Quite a Renaissance person!

Well Sophie, peut etre, it's just that I've rented every movie ever made and then slept through half of them.

just google up movies immediate execution and ..... the theme appears consistently thru time in cinema.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=movies+immediate+execution+&btnG=Search&meta=

and also as you've noted in 'current affairs'.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

That's a little out of my experience. All I can think of is "Not Without My Daughter."

That one got me. I don't even know what that means.

Does this mean you're not able to view IDI from a 'what if' perspective?

I believe I can view RDI from a what if: I suppose there would be murder with special circumstances, conspiracy to murder, sexual assault, accessory to murder, aggravated assault maybe.

Whats the big deal?

What if SFF came to the US with the intention to kidnap and instead killed JBR, while making bizarre statements? Does it modify the crimes with statements like 'not the country that it serves' and 'not the only fat cat so don't think that killing will be difficult'.

Maybe that is outside your area. I guess your expertise lies in RDI-ese (as opposed to JBR-ese).

 

[Tadpole12]

Well, sort of but not quite.

Crossing borders to commit a crime against a child? Threatening other 'fat cats', and refering to the US in a less than respectful way? Is it an international crime, and if so what type?

Hi Hotyh. There are many international dna data bases, perhaps a 'new' investigation may sumbit the dna profile for comparison. INTERPOL.

Also Hotyh, I was thinking about your dilegency? with respect to the SFF scenario.

The literal interpretation of the rn is rather a dead stop.

I had wondered if you had ever ever read the link I had provided to the FLQ terrorist history. Although they were 'typical' terrorist types, in that their manifesto and demands would appear in the local press .... point being that some members were university educated and in attempt to disguise themselves had written in a base french.

Then also I had wanted to ask you if you .... why or if you had not considered my little frenchifaction analysis to have merit.

I had wondered if you had thought that what I view to be french overtones would only apply as a connection to PR.

Even if I replace the anglification, the word attache, with the word portafolio, http://www.wordreference.com/es/translation.asp?tranword=briefcase IMO that french sense remains.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The literal interpretation of the rn is rather a dead stop.

Does that mean JBR's murder has been 'partially' solved?? We don't know who did it, but we know the RN author made all that stuff up?

By what forensic techniques did the investigators arrive at this conclusion?

OK, I think I made my point. That the RN is bogus or fictional is an OPINION, not a fact. NOBODY is looking at this crime from the most obvious perspective, and instead have 'partially solved' the case in their mind by assuming the RN to be wholely false. I'll call it circumventive investigation. Thats where you go around what is most obvious for no valid reason.

Meanwhile, back to the problem at hand: If the RN is NOT made up, then what crimes is the RN author involved in, besides murder?

 

[Tadpole12]

Does that mean JBR's murder has been 'partially' solved?? We don't know who did it, but we know the RN author made all that stuff up??

No Holdon. At this point in Time, what 'we' do know is that the touch dna evidence indicates a non Ramsey., 3 locations of dna, 2 different test periods; both tests using controls for 'contamination', dna compared to internal database, dna has no hit on codis, for individuals or unsolved crime scene dna.

The dna evidence in no way validates any type of intruder scenario or interpretation of the rn. IMO

By what forensic techniques did the investigators arrive at this conclusion?

I dunno Hotyh ... I'd say expertise in criminology and linguistics, psychology, perhaps bearing a degree in sumthang or credentials?

OK, I think I made my point.

Connecting the Dots?

Okay then but your literal interpretation of the rn is one of many options?

That the RN is bogus or fictional is an OPINION, not a fact. NOBODY is looking at this crime from the most obvious perspective, and instead have 'partially solved' the case in their mind by assuming the RN to be wholely false.

Well you are and I'm glad you've got it covered.

I'll call it circumventive investigation.

As you like.

Thats where you go around what is most obvious for no valid reason.

I've been considering all options. I'm a newbie to the JBR topic, so I'll give myself that priveldge to consider & be heard; it's a historical case, media driven, multifacetted......

Meanwhile, back to the problem at hand: If the RN is NOT made up, then what crimes is the RN author involved in, besides murder?

for now.... . It's a lot easier for me to comprehend when you finally dole out the answer ... One thing for sure, my friend, we're on different wave lengths, you and I. s'cool though.

We're still cool though, eh Hotyh?

I guess having lived through active terrorism, pre 911, sometimes the literal interpretation of the rn, well the individual writer-terrorist of the rn seems to me, a bit namby pamby. But there ya go again, preconceptions.

ha ..... still the 90's terrorists could still have watched movies and may have spoken a second language? ..... Just like in the movies.

Shoot, there I go again.....

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
By what forensic techniques did the investigators arrive at this conclusion?

Tadpole: "I dunno Hotyh ... I'd say expertise in criminology and linguistics, psychology, perhaps bearing a degree in sumthang or credentials?"

I should assume from this that 'expertise' and 'getting a degree' are new forensic techniques? C'mon tad. I really don't know. If you go to another country for the purpose of crime I think there's a separate law. I'll try to find out what it is.

"...expertise in criminology and linguistics, psychology, perhaps bearing a degree..."

Yeah but truth doesn't care who discovers it.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I believe it goes something like this:

If the RN holds mostly true, then more than one member of a foreign faction group participated in a child murder while in Colorado. Suspects could be extradited to Colorado to face capital murder charges, even though they aren't US citizens.

They could be extradited only if their country has an extradition treaty with the US. Many countries don't. In that case, even if you knew who did it, you'd have to make a deal with their government or go in and 'kidnap' them and bring them to the U.S.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition#Extradition_and_abduction).

 

[nobull]

What do you say after it is discovered the RN author is in fact an authority figure or commander from a small foreign faction who believes in immediate executions?

Oops?

I think of myself as a reasonable person. I'm still trying to figure out what an "authority figure or commander from a small foreign faction who believes in immediate executions" was doing in Boulder, Colorado that night. I mean, on the terror scale, the killing of one small child doesn't equate to bombing the World Trade Center.

Furthermore, I venture to say that the $118k that this hardened criminal was hoping to make from this crime of terror and bedlam would have not have furthered their objectives too much unless they planned to stop off in Vegas afterwards. JMO.

 

[believe09]

I believe it goes something like this:

If the RN holds mostly true, then more than one member of a foreign faction group participated in a child murder while in Colorado. Suspects could be extradited to Colorado to face capital murder charges, even though they aren't US citizens.

They could be extradited only if their country has an extradition treaty with the US. Many countries don't. In that case, even if you knew who did it, you'd have to make a deal with their government or go in and 'kidnap' them and bring them to the U.S.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition#Extradition_and_abduction).

This is the simplest interpretation of the RN and the crime?? :waitasec:

 

[rashomon]

I believe it goes something like this:

If the RN holds mostly true, then more than one member of a foreign faction group participated in a child murder while in Colorado. Suspects could be extradited to Colorado to face capital murder charges, even though they aren't US citizens.

They could be extradited only if their country has an extradition treaty with the US. Many countries don't. In that case, even if you knew who did it, you'd have to make a deal with their government or go in and 'kidnap' them and bring them to the U.S.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition#Extradition_and_abduction).

Since the ransom note was quite obviously a BOGUS note, imo any attempt at interpreting logical sense into that frantic concoction is futile anyway.

 

[tac1970]

Link to pdf of district attorney's letter to the Ramseys apologizing to them, and stating that their family has been "vindicated".
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Sections/NEWS/PDFs/ramseyDA.pdf