Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #4

[justthinkin]

Yes, it turns out these aren't related after all. Not sure how Doe Network & Charley Project got the wrong info, but they did.

One possibility still exists though, and that's that Maxie may have been murdered by the same person or persons who murdered our mystery couple.

 

[kitbits]

thanks, Fukiyama...

I've seen errors on Doe Network before. You can report any errors you notice. Hmm...having said that, I submitted an update re. Richey Edwards (Manic Street Preachers)--he was declared presumed dead by his parents in the UK last year. I even submitted the BBC website article as back up. They never updated this information. I saw an update on his link about a month or 2 ago & thought for a moment that they had finally updated it with what I had submitted, but they didn't--they just added a couple of photographs.

 

[youshouldveknown]

I always thought the eyes/mouths closed photos looked a bit odd, but then I figured perhaps that would have had something to do with rigor mortis, which I would assume would make closing their mouths difficult, thus distorting the features somewhat.

You should've, I know you're a nurse...does that sound totally off the mark?

kitbits, I don't think you're off the mark at all. I don't know a lot about rigor mortis as I like to keep my patients alive :biggrin: hehe, but what I do know about it is that the muscle rigidity makes the body hard to manipulate. The joints stiffen in response to the rigidity. It can also occur shortly after death or up to several hours after death and I believe it reaches maximum stiffness at about 12 or 24 hours. Um, I also know it affects facial muscles first and then spreads outward. And it also lasts approximately 72 hours or so.

Rigor mortis could definitely explain the asymmetry and changes in facial features. I also want to say to justthinkin that there is no reason to apologize for posting how she felt about the differences in the pictures. I agree too, that they look different and I've often wondered why myself. Some of it I agree is rigor mortis and some is different artist interpretation. But I still feel they look vastly different... enough to question, in fact.

Ask me all the medical stuff you need to. It doesn't bother me at all. I will try to answer as much as I can with my own knowledge, research what I need to, and even ask collegues for their opinions if necessary. I also do part time work in a pharmacy so I know a good bit about medications.

 

[justthinkin]

Rigor mortis didn't stop someone from extracting the guy's teeth & shipping them off to a dentist. I never heard of such nonsense myself. Usually the dentist comes to the morgue.

 

[justthinkin]

I've got one more possibility for a match for our John Doe, and if this isn't him, then I've simply run out of ideas.

I'll preface this by saying the guy didn't jump out at me at first, but when I did side by side shots, I thought, now this one's a real possibility. He's got the right part in his hair, the right hair, the right eyebrows, the right nose, the right eye shape. The only thing throwing me off a bit is his chin seems larger than John Doe's. He's got 2 more strikes against him, blue eyes and blond hair, but I'm thinking his hair could've darkened, and perhaps his eye color is listed wrong or John Doe's eye color could have been reported wrong initially. Please do not discount this guy before looking at the pictures of him with those we have for John Doe.

Blow up the pictures side by side if you can, and let me know if you see the similarities. I think Dermot looks a lot like the first little sketch that went out shortly after the murders took place. I also think he looks just like the 2nd. photo in the series below, and enough like the photo on the top far right. In fact, I can see similarities with him in all the photos and drawings except that 4th. one done by Neville Somebody at Doe Network.

The missing person is Dermot Faulkner Kelly. Walked out of his family's home in Oglesby, IL on January 30, 1972 and never returned. Whereabouts unknown.

Can someone make these images the same size? I don't know how. Thanks.

 

[snowme]

Hi justthinkin, from what I can see in the crime scene photo and the morgue photo our John Doe appears to have small, close-set ears with attached lobes whereas Dermot Kelly's appear larger and the lobe appears to be free or not attached.

This is the first time I've posted in this forum but this couple has kept me up "just thinkin'" for the last two nights in a row! I hadn't logged on in several days but for some reason this couple and various tidbits about this case just wouldn't get out of my mind. I wish I could say that when things keep me awake or wake me up in the wee hours that it was indicative of something happening (progress)... but nope, mostly it's just insomnia. :-/

 

[snowme]

Justthinkin'...yes, embalming...I thought of that too. I remember when I viewed my mother's body at the funeral home (ugh...that was horrendous) & out of curiosity, I touched her cheek...it felt sort of like touching modelling clay.

I looked at the gaping guy pic again...looks to me more like a photo that has been drawn over.

And thanks for clearing up the article confusion--I was reading it in a hurry & glad that the page 2 is missing & I'm not completely bonkers. Well, not really 'glad' that it's missing, but you know what I mean Would love to read the rest.

Lanie, awesome find! Thanks...yes, I see that they are older. Jeez, their mamma must have been a teenage bride, because my mom was born in 1922 & my sister wasn't born until 1947! (link shows one sister marrying in 1958)

& yes, it shows Maxie with birthdate 1952...my poor brother's age

Incidentally, all of this is so interesting for me not only due to the nature of the mystery, but also because one branch of my mother's people were from Sumter Co. in colonial times. AND that KOA guy was a Batson, also a name on Mom's family tree...

kitbits that is interesting. Falls into that "whoa, small world" category. If you ever find that he's actually in your tree do let us know!

 

[snowme]

Here's one of the things that nagged me awake...

From the very first thread, 2nd post, case history:
Months after the homicide, an employee of KOA campgrounds near Santee, S.C., called authorities, believing he had earlier made friends with the dead man, who went by the name “Jock,” according to documents in the case file.
Jock, or more likely, Jacques, stayed a few days at the campgrounds with his young female companion, then left for Florida. He and his girlfriend stopped at the campgrounds again on their way back.
The two men became friends. While shooting pool, Jacque told the KOA worker he was the son of a prominent doctor in Canada who had disowned him for giving up on his own career in medicine. He was taking a vacation of sorts, traveling the country aimlessly.
Before leaving, he tried to pawn an expensive ring to the employee, who later told authorities that the ring had looked a lot like the one found on the mystery man.
Inside his pocket was a book of Grants Truck Stop matches, which could only be found in Idaho, New Mexico and Nebraska. Authorities think Jacques passed through these places on his travels.

If back then the KOA man was shown photos of the couple it had only been "months" since he had encountered the man he referred to as Jock. But it's never been said, has it?, that he did not recognize him, or he did... or he thought maybe it could have been the guy he knew?? Did the KOA guy recall or outright say he spoke with a french accent or that no, he had no accent?? I know they are thinking "more likely" it is Jacques because the KOA guy recalls him having said his father is a doctor in Canada but no mention of if he was even asked did this Jock have an accent. That info may have been helpful back in the day as far as if anyone else had come in casual contact with them and remembered a slight accent. (Like perhaps the fruit stand owner/operator)

it bothers me (obviously, enough to keep me awake wondering) that I've not come across anything that has said the KOA man either did or did not recognize them from photos.

ETA: In one sense you could deduce that he has seen photos... he's coming forward saying he knows them but it does not clearly say it. Then regarding the ring it looked alot like the one that was trying to be pawned or sold to him.. not that it was definitely just like it. Maybe I'm nit picking. It just feels like if this was "oh yea, that's the guy that was here" they would have dove deeper than what it seems now with the KOA guy back then.

Also, it's constantly in the back of my mind that if Grants is the Grants that was on the AZ/NM border and they travelled hwy 40... isn't that also the infamous Route 66? Did LE back then check the various typical stop offs and points of interest on that route to see if anyone else recalled running into this couple?

 

[Mysterylover]

Correct me if I'm wrong,
seems I remember reading the couple laid in GLASS covered coffins for a year before they were buried..
Was the KOA worker permitted to view the bodies ?
What about the Mother in Brunswick that thought the girl may have been her daughter.?.
Was these people showed several pictures and the bodies by the investigators or possibly just one picture and that was it??

 

[justthinkin]

Snowme, one way to look at the KOA guy is as a minor witness. The other way to look at him is he was selling a story to send LE off on a wild goose chase just for the fun of it. My preference is for the latter, and the reason being that drugs were transported by RVs. The KOA guy could have been a connection in a drug ring. He let plenty of time elapse before telling his story. Had he come forward initially, then I think he would have been coming forward in the witness category. I could be wrong, witnesses do come forward later, but I believe their story is usually in question do to time lapse. In this case, story & pictures quickly appeared in the local paper, and everyone in a rural area relies on their local paper for local news.

It would stand to reason these kids had gone to Florida to pick up a load of marijuana, a big deal back then. I would bet they were driving a rented RV. They may have thought they were going to be paid a handsome sum by someone higher up in the chain of command, but right after receiving the money were shot instead. Just my hunch, but I think it's a good one.

I see what you mean on the ears of DFK vs. JD. However, I'm still not willing to give up on DFK just yet. Someone played around with wax on the female UID's right ear, so I really can't be 100% certain that JD's ears are what they appear or what the right one appears. The nice drawing released by Sumter LE shows bigger ears. So I just don't know.

For other inconsistencies look at the close up crime scene shot of JD, mouth open, lying in the grass. Look at that crazy hairline on the right temple. Then compare it with the morgue photo with his hair pulled back on the right side. What happened to the hairline? It should've been visible. I've never seen anyone's hair grow like that. Recede? Yes, but not in a downwards direction.

 

[MadeaBecBec]

Here's the photos side by side and I agree, they do look very similar!!

 

[youshouldveknown]

Rigor mortis didn't stop someone from extracting the guy's teeth & shipping them off to a dentist. I never heard of such nonsense myself. Usually the dentist comes to the morgue.

Rigor mortis isn't permanent, though. They probably extracted the teeth after. Or they could have used instruments to keep the mouth open.

Either way, I agree... pulling the teeth out and sending them off wasn't very smart at all.

 

[justthinkin]

Madeabecbec, I'm glad to hear some agreement. Yay. I feel really strongly about Dermot as a match for JD.
-----


Youshouldveknown,
I still cannot wrap myself around the idea JD's teeth were pulled out. Even Aunt Bea would know better than to do that. Once removed, who is to say if those teeth really belonged to JD, and not someone else?

Actually at this point, it's neither here nor there. DNA is the proper tool for matching our JD here.

 

[snowme]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the wording regarding KOA guy has always been that he "came forward", right? So he did so of his own accord? and not that LE found him? If this is so, that he came forward on his own, albiet months later, why would he come forward at all if he was in a position to be thankful they were not talking to him at first.. why would he come forward from out of nowhere and relative safety of being found out if it was only to point them away from himself? Did that make sense? Why raise a flag for LE if they're not even looking in your direction?

And, I can see what you are saying in your theory. Has there ever been anything to lead us to believe that drugs of any kind were involved... either with KOA guy or the UID couple other than speculating thru discussion here?

Snowme, one way to look at the KOA guy is as a minor witness. The other way to look at him is he was selling a story to send LE off on a wild goose chase just for the fun of it. My preference is for the latter, and the reason being that drugs were transported by RVs. The KOA guy could have been a connection in a drug ring. He let plenty of time elapse before telling his story. Had he come forward initially, then I think he would have been coming forward in the witness category. I could be wrong, witnesses do come forward later, but I believe their story is usually in question do to time lapse. In this case, story & pictures quickly appeared in the local paper, and everyone in a rural area relies on their local paper for local news.

It would stand to reason these kids had gone to Florida to pick up a load of marijuana, a big deal back then. I would bet they were driving a rented RV. They may have thought they were going to be paid a handsome sum by someone higher up in the chain of command, but right after receiving the money were shot instead. Just my hunch, but I think it's a good one.

I see what you mean on the ears of DFK vs. JD. However, I'm still not willing to give up on DFK just yet. Someone played around with wax on the female UID's right ear, so I really can't be 100% certain that JD's ears are what they appear or what the right one appears. The nice drawing released by Sumter LE shows bigger ears. So I just don't know.

For other inconsistencies look at the close up crime scene shot of JD, mouth open, lying in the grass. Look at that crazy hairline on the right temple. Then compare it with the morgue photo with his hair pulled back on the right side. What happened to the hairline? It should've been visible. I've never seen anyone's hair grow like that. Recede? Yes, but not in a downwards direction.

 

[Mysterylover]

One of the things I can't understand about this case is:
HOW does 2 young, clean-cut, attractive people disappear and NO family or friends ever look for either of them?

Maybe one family wouldn't search, but 2 separate families never searching...
especially with Jock, who had thousands of dollars of work done on his teeth and the work was only half completed..

NO, there's something 'hickey' about neither family searching ..

Think about this, was either victim in school, college, working, paying rent, getting pay checks, bank accounts, paying income taxes, phone bills or owned a vehicle, a boat, a dog or other things like inheriting money or real estate from deceased relatives, or had brothers or sisters, or grand parents, and they just disappear and no one cares, or searches...

NO, NO, NO I can't wrap my mind around this..not both.....there's got to be more to this.

It's reasonable to assume, the killers took their identification, billfolds, & handbag, since none was found..

What IF the killers mailed the victims families a letter and told them some 'made-up excuse or convincing reason' why these 2 young people would never be coming home, possibly signing the victims names to the letters??

Because of what the letter said, no family, friends, dentist, grandparents, brothers or sisters ever does any searching for either murdered victim and never files a missing person report.

With no identification of the couple to point in the direction of why the young couple was murdered, the case goes cold...

IMO..IF someone in LE was involved this could easily have been done, in a very convincing manner....leaving us where we are today..

 

[youshouldveknown]

That's really not for us to consider, Mysterylover. For whatever reason, these two are still unidentified. There are endless scenerios as to why they haven't been identified yet. There's no way for us to know at this time. Please don't drive yourself into the ground over that - we need you here and focused.

I choose to believe that these two have families who love and miss them, and HAVE reported them missing, but they just haven't gotten to us yet.

Remember, every time a UID is ID'ed, we often discover the reasons why it took so long. It will happen with this one too.

Hang in there.

 

[youshouldveknown]

Oh, by the way, I had a patient that used to come into my pharmacy often. He was a great person, we always greeted him by name, and he would often bring us lunch. He stopped showing up and after a few months we noticed he wasn't getting his prescriptions filled. One I remember specifically was for seizures, so we tried to call him. The number had been disconnected.

I've been with the pharmacy for 2 years now and I still have no idea what's happened to him. What I do know is that he had refills on his prescriptions and none of them had been transferred to another pharmacy. Our theory is that he is deceased, but with so much time passing, there is no way for us to really find out.

 

[justthinkin]

Snowme,

If you'll blow up the morgue pic of Jock Doe with his right ear exposed, you'll see that some splicing has gone on on the right edge of his face and neck with kind of a pale line that goes straight down from just in front of his ear. To the immediate right of his neck is, as best I can describe, a brief border of horizontal striping. This should not be in this picture. The main background is white which I would imagine is sheeting. We should have him lying on the sheet, and that should be the only thing we see other than his person.

The nice drawing of him distributed by Sumter shows ears with lobes or they appear as such.


Now about the KOA guy, you are correct, it was written, "he came forward."
If there weren't the inconsistencies out of Sumter, that story would be more believeable. I happen to be of the opinion that a lot that's come out of Sumter is just that, stories with some partial truths thrown in. I don't know whether the guy was legit or if he made the story up or told a story someone told him to tell.

Can you think of any reason why the autopsies were never released or why the male victim's teeth were extracted? Too many things just don't add up to suit me.

Edited to add: Okay, so I'm looking at that morgue pic, and maybe that's a shadow on his right side. I'm no photographer. Should we be seeing shadows on the left and the right side of him?:waitasec: I'm not sure that's possible. It's not possible in nature.

 

[kitbits]

kitbits, I don't think you're off the mark at all. I don't know a lot about rigor mortis as I like to keep my patients alive :biggrin: hehe, but what I do know about it is that the muscle rigidity makes the body hard to manipulate. The joints stiffen in response to the rigidity. It can also occur shortly after death or up to several hours after death and I believe it reaches maximum stiffness at about 12 or 24 hours. Um, I also know it affects facial muscles first and then spreads outward. And it also lasts approximately 72 hours or so.

Rigor mortis could definitely explain the asymmetry and changes in facial features. I also want to say to justthinkin that there is no reason to apologize for posting how she felt about the differences in the pictures. I agree too, that they look different and I've often wondered why myself. Some of it I agree is rigor mortis and some is different artist interpretation. But I still feel they look vastly different... enough to question, in fact.

Ask me all the medical stuff you need to. It doesn't bother me at all. I will try to answer as much as I can with my own knowledge, research what I need to, and even ask collegues for their opinions if necessary. I also do part time work in a pharmacy so I know a good bit about medications.

thanks very much

 

[kitbits]

kitbits that is interesting. Falls into that "whoa, small world" category. If you ever find that he's actually in your tree do let us know!

haha, indeed! & you bet, snowme...most certainly shall