Pontiac: The odor, sealing off & processing the car #2

[AZlawyer]

I agree with you Jelly, it is a problem. I am trying to figure out when the detective gets the phone call at night, what the protocol is. I know some of our posters are officers and wives of officers, maybe they can help us.

Is the detective told, listen.... a 911 call came in, this is what was said....
or is the detective told, you need to go to so and so location, a child was reported missing?

I am willing to bet that if it is the latter and not the former, there is new procedures being instructed from what they learned in this case. That would have been some highly valuable information and changed Yuri's jumping off point had he or had he not had the smell in the car mentioned to him early on.
That is the only part I am unclear on. I know what happened from the time he started questioning Casey and the wild goose chases she took them on for hours on end. I just do not know when he learned about the smell in the car.

I apologize if this has already been answered . I have to fall on my sword and admit that I have not read the entire thread. Santa is going to get me, but I went straight to the last page.

Didn't the detectives arrive while Cindy was still on the phone for the last 911call? And isn't that the only call where she reported the car smell? If so, I would think there would be no call from dispatch to the station at all regarding that call--they would just mark it as already responded to.

 

[Tulessa]

Didn't the detectives arrive while Cindy was still on the phone for the last 911call? And isn't that the only call where she reported the car smell? If so, I would think there would be no call from dispatch to the station at all regarding that call--they would just mark it as already responded to.

I thought it was one of the Deputies that came first....

 

[JBean]

I agree with you Jelly, it is a problem. I am trying to figure out when the detective gets the phone call at night, what the protocol is. I know some of our posters are officers and wives of officers, maybe they can help us.

Is the detective told, listen.... a 911 call came in, this is what was said....
or is the detective told, you need to go to so and so location, a child was reported missing?

I am willing to bet that if it is the latter and not the former, there is new procedures being instructed from what they learned in this case. That would have been some highly valuable information and changed Yuri's jumping off point had he or had he not had the smell in the car mentioned to him early on.
That is the only part I am unclear on. I know what happened from the time he started questioning Casey and the wild goose chases she took them on for hours on end. I just do not know when he learned about the smell in the car.

I apologize if this has already been answered . I have to fall on my sword and admit that I have not read the entire thread. Santa is going to get me, but I went straight to the last page.

we have linked half a dozen times that YM knew about the smell upon his arrival at 3;30-3:45 am. GA told him that it smelled like a dead body in the car.
CA told dispatch at 9:41 and dispatch should tell responding officers everything they need to know as they get to a call. But we do not know if they did their job correctly either which is why we have a range of 15-22 hours before LE knew about the smell and the time they taped it off.
If you have a missing child report from a person that has failed to report it for 31 days and both grandparents report a dead body smell in the car they just got out of the tow yard, I cannot imagine at least one officer or investiagtor thinking hmmmm better check that out...right now. I mean I don't even think you have to be trained LE to come to that conclusion.


Everything is documented on this thread.

 

[cecybeans]

IKWYM, BeanE. George seemed to just be pacifying Cindy...just tell me what I want to hear IOW. I'm not suggesting he was waffling. He knew what he was dealing with in his head...I think he was just in shock/denial himself. He was clear @ the towyard that he knew that smell...



LE picked up the cell phone ~10PM and returned to G&C's. Lee left G&C's ~midnight and got back ~2:45AM'ish. So...the dumping out of contents happened >2:45AM. The Casey w/ LE in the front yard would've been between 10PM-midnight.

...that also suggests LE was present for a considerable portion of the night.

When did they bring Casey back to the house after her Sawgrass adventure?

I originally thought it might be GA pacifying CA, but if she truly thought it was pizza, I don't believe she would have said the car smelled like a dead body in her 911 call. I think the "it's pizza, right?" conversation was more about corroborating a story for later if necessary to make them look innocent of contaminating a crime scene if asked.

I remember reading different reports that KC got back home from her tour anywhere between 2 am and 4 am, will have to go back and look to see if I can verifiy the exact time. But I would assume that LE left shortly thereafter because they did not come back to pick her up to go to Universal until later the next morning. (I read the report last night and Yuri met JA, AW and the other LEO at universal, so they were together for KC's interview). I seriously doubt anyone in that house slept through the wee hours and I would think the entire family would have had several hours to go through the scene to remove or re-adjust items, whether as a group or as separate individuals before KC was taken to Universal. CA and GA certainly had that time as well to fine tune things, unless LE was at the house while KC was being interviewed; I tend to think not as CA was continuously calling them during the interview.

 

[JBean]

Didn't the detectives arrive while Cindy was still on the phone for the last 911call? And isn't that the only call where she reported the car smell? If so, I would think there would be no call from dispatch to the station at all regarding that call--they would just mark it as already responded to.

Yes they did. Dispatch should be relaying any information they are getting to the officers they are responding.
That is how first responding officers know what they are dealing with. Things like the suspect is armed and the car smells like a dead body are critical pieces of information that any dispatch worth their salt would make sure officers are aware of.
But we are assuming they didn't tell them, which would be another booboo and that is how our range of times comes into play.
But,imo since the officers arrived moments after CA uttered those words, I am of the opinion she shared it again but that is just a guess of course.
But YM himself says that GA told him immediately that the car smelled like a dead body so we can start our timeline for certain at 3:45ish in the morning.

 

[The World According]

I am sorry, that is why we are to read the entire thread. My sincere apologies. Forgive me for not reading the earlier posts, I could easily have answered my questions. It was lazy and there is no excuse!!

 

[JBean]

I am sorry, that is why we are to read the entire thread. My sincere apologies. Forgive me for not reading the earlier posts, I could easily have answered my questions. It was lazy and there is no excuse!!

We all are guilty of it at one time or another TWA. We all have only so much time to get through all the topics and I have done it myself many times. Don't even give it a second thought, but we should all be patient with each other when the threads are not read and the same information is reposted. It is just life on the forum boards!

 

[logicalgirl]

I really want to give Cindy the benefit of the doubt, too, but one thing has been bugging me lately.

Here's JWG's helpful timeline of July 15 for all family members:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3771249#post3771249

Note that Cindy arrives home from her ill-advised return to work at Gentiva and starts cleaning the car around 4:15 pm. She then texts KC "call me ASAP major prob" at 4:27 pm.

Um, what could she have learned in 12 minutes of cleaning/searching that created more of a "major prob" than what she already knew at 2:00 pm when they picked up the car?? She already knew it smelled like a dead body and that Caylee's carseat was left in the car. The white trash bag was in the Johnson's Towing dumpster, so it was nothing in the trash bag that set off Cindy's alarm bells.

KC thinks the "major prob" text is about Amy's camera arriving in the mail or some such crap, but Cindy responds again: "call me". What could Cindy have found in the car that she didn't want to say in writing?

Until that moment, Cindy was apparently satisfied with Casey's quick telephonic "oh mom I'll explain later" or whatever Cindy testified Casey said earlier that afternoon. But almost immediately after looking in the car Cindy is in "major prob" mode and refuses to say in writing what exactly the "major prob" is.

Of course, LE didn't know about the car at this point...I'm thinking that any evidence-tinkering was done before LE was on the scene.

I have read all your points and timelines however just wanted to add I thought Cindy's "major prob" was that she realized she was NOT going to be able to remove the smell from the car - and wanted Casey to come clean about where exactly was Caylee.

 

[wenwe4]

I imagine that upon arrival LE had so much to sort out. To be fair, there was a report of a missing child, a stolen car, stolen money, car smells, "I want this person arrested", Mother admitted not seen child in a month, car retrieved from tow yard (so it's not stolen?), etc, etc, etc. Not saying that nearly 24 hours is a reasonablle time period, but I think focus was on trying to get the story straight and understanding what really was going on and then prioritizing emergent needs. Maybe they relaxed since they knew GA had disabled the car and it could not be moved, and I imagine GA told them he would cooperate and not move the car - so MOO the priority may have taken second seat to the missing child issue as the car wasn't stolen and it wasn't going anywhere. In my book, a missing child would trump everything!

 

[JBean]

I imagine that upon arrival LE had so much to sort out. To be fair, there was a report of a missing child, a stolen car, stolen money, car smells, "I want this person arrested", Mother admitted not seen child in a month, car retrieved from tow yard (so it's not stolen?), etc, etc, etc. Not saying that nearly 24 hours is a reasonablle time period, but I think focus was on trying to get the story straight and understanding what really was going on and then prioritizing emergent needs. Maybe they relaxed since they knew GA had disabled the car and it could not be moved, and I imagine GA told them he would cooperate and not move the car - so MOO the priority may have taken second seat to the missing child issue as the car wasn't stolen and it wasn't going anywhere. In my book, a missing child would trump everything!

They let KC have free access to the car during that time period and she even wentinto the garage while the officers were there after GA told them about the smell.

Giving anyone access to a potential murder scene or a scene rich with evidence is just careless no matter how you slice it. Dead body smell could mean there was a dead body there at some point or maybe even still in there! How could they not even look?
I know most of us concur that LE is doing a great job and they are. but in this one area they just made a mistake. May mean absoultely nothing at all. But to me it is the same as failing to seal off a crime scene and letting people walk all through it.

 

[sumbunny]

Didn't the detectives arrive while Cindy was still on the phone for the last 911call? And isn't that the only call where she reported the car smell? If so, I would think there would be no call from dispatch to the station at all regarding that call--they would just mark it as already responded to.

Did cindy tell the first responding officer about the stench of death in the car when he arrived? I'm willing to wager she didn't.

 

[The Eunice Burns]

I imagine that upon arrival LE had so much to sort out. To be fair, there was a report of a missing child, a stolen car, stolen money, car smells, "I want this person arrested", Mother admitted not seen child in a month, car retrieved from tow yard (so it's not stolen?), etc, etc, etc. Not saying that nearly 24 hours is a reasonablle time period, but I think focus was on trying to get the story straight and understanding what really was going on and then prioritizing emergent needs. Maybe they relaxed since they knew GA had disabled the car and it could not be moved, and I imagine GA told them he would cooperate and not move the car - so MOO the priority may have taken second seat to the missing child issue as the car wasn't stolen and it wasn't going anywhere. In my book, a missing child would trump everything!

True, it would trump everything. But, if we remember that the reeking car of death was declared a reeking car of death by the first person LE spoke to.....CA. I'm not LE, nor do I have any procedural knowledge, but JBean makes an excellent point---missing child not reported for 31 days, reeking car= crime scene. IMO, a crime scene was not secured---the car. It bugs me too, and at times I wish there is to be a big AHA! moment when more info comes forth.......if that is possible. Or it may have to stand as it is---that the car sat at the As for hours before being seized by LE. oh chit......as BJB said.

 

[wenwe4]

They let KC have free access to the car during that time period and she even wentinto the garage while the officers were there after GA told them about the smell.

Giving anyone access to a potential murder scene or a scene rich with evidence is just careless no matter how you slice it. Dead body smell could mean there was a dead body there at some point or maybe even still in there! How could they not even look?
I know most of us concur that LE is doing a great job and they are. but in this one area they just made a mistake. May mean absoultely nothing at all. But to me it is the same as failing to seal off a crime scene and letting people walk all through it.

I am not disagreeing and you make excellent points there. LE did have an onus of responsiblity to secure any and all suspicious and/or related items immediately and as reasonable as possible. Just wondering if it didn't take an inordinate amount of time to try and get the whole scenario from this family and given CA's hysteria and KC's strange affect - they may have been still struggling with what was the priority. (I mean we still haven't heard the whole true story) So much information coming in and most of it was so shocking and strange. Also, it could have been assigned to one officer and that person dropped the ball, unbeknownst to YM or others as they were a little busy @ the time. One thing - we do not have all of the documents and there may be an officer standing by securing the entire home, not just the car, etc.

 

[The Eunice Burns]

I am sorry, that is why we are to read the entire thread. My sincere apologies. Forgive me for not reading the earlier posts, I could easily have answered my questions. It was lazy and there is no excuse!!

You're not the only one. I get behind constantly, and if returning from a voluntary or "life calls" break, it is hopeless for me to catch up. I try and rely on the great posters we have who narrow down the issues so I can get an idea what is going on. Thanks to all of you who allow me to do that!

I love WS. But sometimes when life is overwhelming, I regret getting started, because I fret over what I'm missing.

 

[JBean]

I am not disagreeing and you make excellent points there. LE did have an onus of responsiblity to secure any and all suspicious and/or related items immediately and as reasonable as possible. Just wondering if it didn't take an inordinate amount of time to try and get the whole scenario from this family and given CA's hysteria and KC's strange affect - they may have been still struggling with what was the priority. (I mean we still haven't heard the whole true story) So much information coming in and most of it was so shocking and strange. Also, it could have been assigned to one officer and that person dropped the ball, unbeknownst to YM or others as they were a little busy @ the time. One thing - we do not have all of the documents and there may be an officer standing by securing the entire home, not just the car, etc.

If the officer was possibly securing the home why would he let KC have access to the car alone in the garage?

But I agree this is about prioritization. But the red flags were there to be prioritzed but no one did, imo.
IF Caylee had been missing for a few hours I would 100% agree with everyone that the red flag of the car might not seem so HUGE.
The very fact that strange information was coming in and the car smelled like a dead body should have shot that car up to the top of the priority list.

 

[wenwe4]

we have linked half a dozen times that YM knew about the smell upon his arrival at 3;30-3:45 am. GA told him that it smelled like a dead body in the car.
CA told dispatch at 9:41 and dispatch should tell responding officers everything they need to know as they get to a call. But we do not know if they did their job correctly either which is why we have a range of 15-22 hours before LE knew about the smell and the time they taped it off.
If you have a missing child report from a person that has failed to report it for 31 days and both grandparents report a dead body smell in the car they just got out of the tow yard, I cannot imagine at least one officer or investiagtor thinking hmmmm better check that out...right now. I mean I don't even think you have to be trained LE to come to that conclusion.


Everything is documented on this thread.

So two options come to mind: either SA are keeping evidence of securing the vehicle close to the vest for trial or it was not secured and the above scenario is a big hole in the investigation.

If the car was not secured, how much of this time would KC actually have access to it during this 15-22 hrs? 9:41 to 3:30ish - IIRC she was driving the scenic route with YM during part of this time.

 

[The World According]

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/031209Casey_Anthony_Motion_hearing

 

[BeanE]

When did they bring Casey back to the house after her Sawgrass adventure?

Some times for you, Bond. I don't know for sure if KC's written statement was done at the house.

KC's statement is 7/16 @ 01:05
PDF page 29
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/acrobat/2008-08/41844520.pdf

Melich interview of KC at the house is 7/16 @ 04:11
http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Anthony, Casey No 1-0721.pdf

The recording of the interview @ Universal began 7/16 @ 13:20
PDF page 85
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/acrobat/2008-08/41844520.pdf

 

[AZlawyer]

They let KC have free access to the car during that time period and she even wentinto the garage while the officers were there after GA told them about the smell.

Giving anyone access to a potential murder scene or a scene rich with evidence is just careless no matter how you slice it. Dead body smell could mean there was a dead body there at some point or maybe even still in there! How could they not even look?
I know most of us concur that LE is doing a great job and they are. but in this one area they just made a mistake. May mean absoultely nothing at all. But to me it is the same as failing to seal off a crime scene and letting people walk all through it.

JBean, this is the part I can't figure out. As far as LE knew at the time, there was a child who had been missing for 31 days and a car with the smell of death (which had been missing for much of that time as well) in the garage. First thing I think you would do is open up the trunk and make sure the child is not in the trunk! Second thing I think you would do is say, "um, there's no dead body here, but there is a large suspicious stain. Let's get this car sealed."

 

[BeanE]

JBean, this is the part I can't figure out. As far as LE knew at the time, there was a child who had been missing for 31 days and a car with the smell of death (which had been missing for much of that time as well) in the garage. First thing I think you would do is open up the trunk and make sure the child is not in the trunk! Second thing I think you would do is say, "um, there's no dead body here, but there is a large suspicious stain. Let's get this car sealed."

I realize I'm being a pain - blame a long career in a profession where every little fact was critical. Just want to note that we don't actually know for sure if anyone told the first responders about the smell.

- Cindy told 911. We don't have the call notes to know if the info was passed to the first responders.
- No notes on statements etc mention smell in regards to the first responders.
- Yuri's investigative report says a first responder got a note out of the car, but CA told FBI that wasn't true. That she got that note from her address book and gave it to a deputy.
- First confirmed notification to any LE on the scene about the smell was GA telling Yuri on his arrival approx 3:30/3:45. First responders were there for hours before Yuri arrival.

All that being said, I *think* the first responders were told, based on common sense, rather than confirmation.

FWIW