Would you pull a cord

[madeleine]

HOW did LE know whether it was an accident or not?They had no evidence that suggested the R's planned this or did it with intent.So they started to push the accident scenario because they couldn't prove anything else and they thought the accident scenario sounds better.Oh we have such a horrible crime and the person who would do such things is obvious a monster,but we can't prove the parents are monsters so we start pushing the accident theory.How convenient,but it's still SPECULATION.Why would you rather believe that it was a cover-up(a pretty SICK one then) and not a REAL monster,you obviously believe that such monsters with dark sides exist.

 

[madeleine]

If strangulation and sexual assault are just part of the cover-up (the autopsy report and ST's confirm that she was ALIVE though when both happened) THEN this cover-up is more EVIL&SICK than the crime itself.

 

[madeleine]

IF everything LE claimed is true,why didn't ANYONE fight ML's decision?Beckner?Anyone?ST?Arndt?All those who were SO SURE that RDI and claimed there is evidence and REPORTS to prove it?Why not at least on TV ?Where was FW when RDI pretty much died after ML's announcements?Or was he satisfied that he got a letter too?Didn't he want JUSTICE anymore?

 

[madeleine]

If there are so many who say they HAVE PROOF that RDI and that ML's decision to look somewhere else is a really bad one,where are they?
I don't agree with the way she exonerated people and never will but my reasons are different,it's not about the Ramsey's,it's about HOW and based on what she did it.

 

[WHITEFANG]

There's one thing about PRamsey. JonBenet was paraded in front of thousands of people,


dressed in clothing inappropriate for a young child,

Apparently you are not alone in feeling as you do. This kind of pageantry holds absolutely nothing for me, but I don't understand what it is/was about her clothing that was so inappropriate. She was dressed up for the occasion. She enjoyed it.

and painted with heavy makeup, so it wouldn't surprise me if Patsy could wrap a rope around her.

Wearing alot of make-up and killing your child are linked? She participated in beauty pageants for children. She wasn't hanging out on 8th Street in Manhattan, soliciting. She was just a little kid having fun. Her folks had a ton of money. They could afford to have Joni "play" like this.

I believe ours is a culture absolutely inundated with accounts of perversion, sickening tales of child abuse, an omnipresent flesh industry that is promoted and accepted just about everywhere we go, so much so that we are unable to recognize this kids' pageantry stuff for what it really is, innocent, playful, fun activity for this child and her family. That's all it was. Period. Nothing more, period. IMO.

I think that many of us are jealous of a family that could throw money at what we judge a frivolous waste of time. Many of us want to see the well-to-do fall from their lofty status. I suspect we enjoy rubbing their noses in it. They are not any better than the rest of us! Huh! They got theirs!

 

[madeleine]

Wearing alot of make-up and killing your child are linked?

Nope but it does expose the child to all the freaks out there.Why not prevent that,there are so many other ways children AND mothers can have fun,together or not.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Nope but it does expose the child to all the freaks out there.Why not prevent that,there are so many other ways children AND mothers can have fun,together or not.

I don't want to be stuck defending their choice to participate in this stuff. I don't like make-up and pageants, blah, blah, blah. You know?

If they could do it over again, they may have decided against it. I'm trying to say that I don't believe they were making a conscious decision to have their child flirt with the boundaries of decency. I don't believe they deserve to be condemned for enrolling her and encouraging her in it. She was six years old. She was a baby. If Pat enjoyed her enjoyment, great.

Plenty of men push their sons into roles as vicarious extensions of their dreams for greatness in sports and business and they start them at an early age, too. Not much in the way of condemnation or hurling insults and innuendos at them. Just observe their behavior at Pee Wee football games to see how obsessed some of these guys are!

If I thought they had simply chosen to overlook warning signs of real danger, I'd join in the hellish chorus, too.

 

[BBB167893]

All you seem to be doing at times on this forum is interfering with the flow of the conversation that's aimed at solving this mystery.

That's just it, MF. I don't see what purpose this conversation serves.

 

[BBB167893]

We can use our imaginations, our own sense of what is and isn't possible for us. And the question isn't asked of "US" or "WE" per se. It is a question for anyone who would care to think about it. I think it is a perfectly acceptable question.

It's perfectly fine, Fang. It's just they way it was posed.

 

[BBB167893]

Fine,than I guess MY thoughts wouldn't be as sick as you think the R's were.

Okay.

DUNNO about you.

I don't know about me either.

And I know perfectly what people are capable of and I know about dark sides but whenever it comes to this you are talking in general, I am talking about THESE people cause they are the players in this crime.

Then we're not too far apart.

Why is it that you think THESE people are so EVIL and chose to do such horrible things to their daughters body?Where;s the evidence that supports that they ARE such people?

Well, that's the thing, madeleine. I don't believe you have to be any special kind of evil to do this. I look at the Rs and I think, "there but for the grace of the gods." It's not such a black-and-white issue. Now, if you were to ask me why I think they would choose to do such things, I've made my arguments.

That's not what I meant.I was wondering who started this accident scenario and why,based on what.

If memory serves, it was Dr. Richard Krugman.

Why would you rather believe that it was a cover-up(a pretty SICK one then) and not a REAL monster,you obviously believe that such monsters with dark sides exist.

That's just it. I would rather not believe that, madeleine. I've said that many times.

IF everything LE claimed is true,why didn't ANYONE fight ML's decision?Beckner?Anyone?ST?Arndt?

Michael Kane questioned it. But to answer your question, how could they fight it?

All those who were SO SURE that RDI and claimed there is evidence and REPORTS to prove it?Why not at least on TV?

Because that's how this case got into such lousy shape. Much better to shut up and keep working in private.

Where was FW when RDI pretty much died after ML's announcements?Or was he satisfied that he got a letter too?Didn't he want JUSTICE anymore?

Good question.

 

[madeleine]

Well, that's the thing, madeleine. I don't believe you have to be any special kind of evil to do this. I look at the Rs and I think, "there but for the grace of the gods." It's not such a black-and-white issue. Now, if you were to ask me why I think they would choose to do such things, I've made my arguments.

Nope I am asking what makes you believe they were capable of doing such things.

 

[madeleine]

I don't believe you have to be any special kind of evil to do this.

I guess this is where we disagree then.It IS a big deal to strangle your child and sexually assault her post-mortem.It's not like writing a stupid RN.

 

[BBB167893]

And Supe has made it an important topic for discussion, and rightfully so; that is, who among us is capable of this kind of behavior given similar circumstances? Maybe more of us than we'd like to think?

Fang, I take it back. You show understanding and wisdom.

 

[BBB167893]

Wearing alot of make-up and killing your child are linked?

Not directly, of course. It's a bit deeper than that. Pageant life was PR's life. That's what she grew up with. JB was her little star. This was PR's whole world. If something were to happen to shatter that world, who knows what someone might do?

They are not any better than the rest of us!

Isn't that what I've been saying?

 

[madeleine]

How do you imagine this happened btw?

PR:"I am done John,I wrote the most perfect note,I am so proud!Hold on,I don't think this is enough though.What about making it even more special,why don't you go get some of my stuff and let's make the most special murder weapon."
JR:"Working on it honey,be right back,sounds like fun!"
PR:"Oh Johhhhhhhhhhhhn!I still don't think it's enough!What about messing a bit with our daughter's vagina so we make sure LE's on the wrong track?"
JR:"Hmmm,honey,I don't think that will be that difficult,I've done this before,remember?"
PR:"Great!But make sure you also clean her up and put on those cute panties with the rose buds she liked so much."


I KNOW.NOT FUNNY.
But you make all this sound like it would be a walk in the park and everyone is capable of sexually assaulting and putting a cord around their child's neck and pull it only in order to cover up for an accident and then being so evil to mock us on TV, for how many years?

 

[BBB167893]

Nope I am asking what makes you believe they were capable of doing such things.

The same reason I believe that everyone else is capable of it.

I guess this is where we disagree then.

Looks that way.

It IS a big deal to strangle your child and sexually assault her post-mortem.

I agree it's big deal. But under the circumstances, any port in a storm, right?

It's not like writing a stupid RN.

You've piqued my interest. Some people don't think they could do that, either.

 

[Tadpole12]

Would you write a RN note if that keeps you out of jail?Probably
Would you mess with the evidence?Probably
Would you lie to LE?Probably

But put a CORD around your childs neck and pull and then sexually assault her?N E V E R,no matter what.

Hey Madeleine.

Yes, it must be our maternal nature, the revulsion of the act .... the rope, and sexual violation of your own child.
Being capable of staging, but not that method.
Not to that degree.

 

[madeleine]

The same reason I believe that everyone else is capable of it.

Sad.It's one thing to realize that people can be evil and do bad horrible things and something else to say that everyone is capable of sexually assaulting and putting a cord around their child's neck.Maybe my reality is different than yours.Being capable of something and having no problem doing something are different things.I've seen no remorse,no guilt,you would think that someone who loves a child but did this in order to cover their @ss would in time be devastated.You would go CRAZY.Did these people have no conscience,nothing,is this what you're telling me?Are they sociopaths?

 

[daisydaisy]

I have to agree with others who are emphasizing the importance of context with a question like this. No one wants to think they could do such a horrible thing.

But, assuming RDI for the purpose of this question, I think the discussion on the UMI thread is important. A parent who is quite literally "out of their mind" might be able to commit an act such as this one, especially after suffering the initial trauma of the situation, followed by the frenzy of a cover-up.

I've always been perplexed as to how the Rs (IF they had anything to do with it) did not seem to have a "breakdown" moment later that somebody would have witnessed. (I haven't read about one, anyway.) This is why some of the meds are interesting. Yes--absolutely could and probably should have been used to treat the trauma of losing a child under such horrible circumstances. But, could they have also prevented/kept at bay such a moment of "WHAT DID I/WE DO???"

 

[madeleine]

UMI and "PR might have been frustrated because of the trip" and stuff are just excuses because there is no evidence that shows that she did something.IMO.So we come up with these kind of ideas because there is nothing else there and we desperately want her to be guilty .WHY.
Why didn't the cops follow the JDI lead after finding out that she was abused before (so they SAY).
Why is she the one people think she was out of her mind or frustrated or the one having a rage attack.WHY NOT JR.WHY.