GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #5

[laserdisc10]

No, I quite agree. I'm not sure what has been posted on earlier threads, and I don't know what else Malaconotus has worked out, whether it's the same as me.

Apart from the 2 basement flats, I think there is an older lady in the large hall floor flat; above this flat is CJ to the left, and another lady to the right. The two top flats are occupied by former masters at Clifton College (both single gents as far as I know). Not sure if this is totally accurate & up to date, mind.

JY's building, then, appears sedate as far as tenants are concerned. I only have the sketchiest re: PS's building (so close by) re: tenants. And of course, all around are converted houses-now flats. We don't know how many neighbours JY had established a passing friendship with

We don't even know what she was wearing when found, which is a bit unusual. Many times, police will state, ' When last seen, he/she was wearing a mustard yellow top and dark grey pants, black sneakers and possibly a blue scarf ' for example. But in this case, it's not what police have revealed, but what they've failed to say. And all they've said is that JY's boots and coat (and other items) remained in the flat. For some reason, they haven't put out a description of her clothing when discovered. So if JY had changed into a black turtle neck or her pajamas when she arrived home, what clues were provided the public during the search period or even now, when the Sun newspaper for example, is still inviting the public to print off reward posters at the same time the public doesn't know if they sighted JY at some point because whomever they might have seen was not identifiable to them at the time

 

[mikeymot]

I searched the Bristol Planning site for plans, but came up empty.

http://www.ukplanning.com/ukp/findCaseFile.do?address=canynge&action3=Search

There are applications for conversion from 4 to 7 flats for 44 and flat conversions for 42 but, even with the application numbers, no documents are available (this is prob. due to L/E interest) I think one app. was 2004 and the other 2008.

 

[mikeymot]

It's wrong. See my post 638. That version makes much more sense.

You're right...got that from an old press report...it was the girls who met at the college..well spotted.

 

[Malaconotus]

There are applications for conversion from 4 to 7 flats for 44 and flat conversions for 42 but, even with the application numbers, no documents are available (this is prob. due to L/E interest) I think one app. was 2004 and the other 2008.

The application for no 44 was granted to Clifton College in 1988 and the work done around 1991, at which point the staff purchased the newly created flats.

ETA - I suspect the scaffolding around 42 reflects the fact that work is now underway to convert to four flats.

 

[Rossetti]

I only have the sketchiest re: PS's building (so close by) re: tenants.

There is only PS and LP to the best of my knowledge. I don't know how much, if any, conversion work has been done on the house, or whether the current building work is associated with it. One would imagine so.

 

[otto]

There are applications for conversion from 4 to 7 flats for 44 and flat conversions for 42 but, even with the application numbers, no documents are available (this is prob. due to L/E interest) I think one app. was 2004 and the other 2008.

Exactly. There had to be architectural drawings for the application to be approved, and they must be somewhere ... just not easily found online at this time.

 

[laserdisc10]

Applying the line of reasoning that the simplest answer is most often the right answer, then I would say that Miss Yeates was killed sometime on the evening of the 17th December and her body dumped shortly thereafter. That certainly seems to be the working hypothesis adopted by the local police. But then again, like any working hypothesis, it would be subject to revision in the light of any new evidence. After all beyond 8.40 pm ish on the Friday, the police have no secure timeline. They appear to believe that she did make it home, and may have good reason for so doing, but I don't think it's neccessarily a certainty. It also appears that they have no clear TOD. I would imagine that the usual forensic tests, liver temp and so on, are all somewhat comprised by the passage of time and the weather conditions, and the best that they can say is that she had been dead for several days before Xmas day. I therefore wouldn't exclude the possibility that she was killed sometime later than the Friday, and/or dumped sometime afterwards, simply because it's not possible to prove otherwise. But I would say that it appears to be an opportunistic rather than a planned crime, so that I would be sceptical about any hypothesis that was based on a convoluted explanation involving conveniently empty chest freezers of a certain capacity for example.

Just my opinion you understand.

My thoughts too. I lean towards accidental/unintended killing. 'Constriction of the neck' is not the same as 'strangling' as I interpret it in this instance. 'Strangling' denotes intentional murder, whereas 'constriction of the neck' could occur if someone leaned a forearm across someone's throat while they were, for example, pressed against a wall or floor. It might be an attempt to control, hold in place, threaten, or to momentarily silence the victim in order the other could 'explain'. Too much pressure, inadvertently imposed, has the potential to kill

If, as has been suggested in the media and elsewhere, the missing-sock had been used to 'constrict the neck', I'd expect there to be visible evidence in the form of 'burn' marks or chaffing, possibly with ligature type markings around a substantial area of the neck. I'd also expect the police to state that JY had been strangled or choked to death if this were the case. 'Constriction' denotes pressure, to my mind, although I could be completely off course. Strange term for the police to release though. Very specific

 

[jigzy]

JY's building, then, appears sedate as far as tenants are concerned. I only have the sketchiest re: PS's building (so close by) re: tenants. And of course, all around are converted houses-now flats. We don't know how many neighbours JY had established a passing friendship with

We don't even know what she was wearing when found, which is a bit unusual. Many times, police will state, ' When last seen, he/she was wearing a mustard yellow top and dark grey pants, black sneakers and possibly a blue scarf ' for example. But in this case, it's not what police have revealed, but what they've failed to say. And all they've said is that JY's boots and coat (and other items) remained in the flat. For some reason, they haven't put out a description of her clothing when discovered. So if JY had changed into a black turtle neck or her pajamas when she arrived home, what clues were provided the public during the search period or even now, when the Sun newspaper for example, is still inviting the public to print off reward posters at the same time the public doesn't know if they sighted JY at some point because whomever they might have seen was not identifiable to them at the time

Could this be because she was found in different clothes to Friday's outfit (changed by perp to confuse LE), and the LE could not reveal this without the public then questioning why they are focusing on a Friday murder, thus giving away the idea that trickery by those close to her was at play?
This makes sense in my head though I haven't explained it very well.

jmo

 

[Luna15]

This has been rather garbled - someone seems to have got it wrong and subsequently most reporters have copied the erroneous version. This looks like the authentic version:


http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news...old-woman/article-3036710-detail/article.html

He mentioned that it was their 2nd anniversary on Dec 11 (2010):-

“She was my future. We had celebrated our two-year anniversary on December 11 and recently moved in together – things were falling into place.

“We’ve had a cat called Bernard for about a year who means the world to us.

Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...tect-jo-yeates-115875-22801664/#ixzz1B8cTmjaZ

He mentions they 'recently moved in together' but they had the cat together for a year? which indicates to me that they must have been living together at the time of getting the cat.... or am I reading that wrong?

not feeling very bright today.

 

[jigzy]

The application for no 44 was granted to Clifton College in 1988 and the work done around 1991, at which point the staff purchased the newly created flats.

ETA - I suspect the scaffolding around 42 reflects the fact that work is now underway to convert to four flats.

Just reminded me: I recall a Lorp Tweet saying a while ago that new heating had been installed in his absence - to his surprise (I think he'd been overseas).

 

[Rossetti]

He mentions they 'recently moved in together' but they had the cat together for a year? which indicates to me that they must have been living together at the time of getting the cat.... or am I reading that wrong?

No, I think they've omitted a few words - he said they had moved into a new flat and something about it being in the best part of Bristol, something like that. It was definitely their second place together.

 

[Firefly75]

Hi Luna,

They lived together somewhere else before. That unfortunate flat was their second place together.

I posted a link to the source in a post somewhere in the past. Not sure I can dig it out quick, but I can try.

Ey voila:

He continued: ‘She was the first ever girlfriend I moved in with. Recently we moved in to a really nice flat together in probably the best area of Bristol.
‘It’s our second place together and things felt like they were really falling into place. We were both really happy in our jobs – we worked together and that’s how we met.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ates-sobs-I-want-Christmas.html#ixzz1B8fJFSkI

It's about 4 paragraphs below that photo they put in (how inappropriate - and how very Daily Mail) where Joanna is made up as a zombie.

 

[equationgirl]

There are applications for conversion from 4 to 7 flats for 44 and flat conversions for 42 but, even with the application numbers, no documents are available (this is prob. due to L/E interest) I think one app. was 2004 and the other 2008.

Are you searching on application numbers for 44? All I can see is a list of all applications for Canynge Road and any for 44 do not appear in the list. Links removed perhaps?

 

[jigzy]

The rental listing, which has since been removed, included " a SMALL PATIO in front of the living room". I think that means ... that's the yard space that comes with the flat.


"1 bedroom ground floor flat to rent Clifton, 44 Canynge Rd BS8 3LQ
£725 pcm
Lovely 1 BEDROOM FLAT on one of the most DESIRABLE ROADS in CLIFTON. Situated on the ground floor of this MAGNIFICENT HOUSE this flat benefits from its OWN ENTRANCE and a SMALL PATIO in front of the living room. The living room is light and airy and has a separate dining area. The kitchen and bat..." (linked earlier in this thread)

Small patio seen here in front of the living room window

See green arrow:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51....1.459892,-2.624088&spn=0.000299,0.000915&z=21

 

[laserdisc10]

Could this be because she was found in different clothes to Friday's outfit (changed by perp to confuse LE), and the LE could not reveal this without the public then questioning why they are focusing on a Friday murder, thus giving away the idea that trickery by those close to her was at play?
This makes sense in my head though I haven't explained it very well.

jmo

Imo, this has been a strangely-orchestrated investigation from the outset

The focus upon the Clifton Bridge, for example, and the massive outlay of resources there, when people such as myself, on the other side of the globe, were able to see there were alternative routes available which could have been used in transportation of the body

Then media reports of retailers/businesses along the route said taken by JY after she left the Ram. Shop owners said police had contacted them to say they should review their CCTV and if anything of note were discovered, this should be referred to LE. At the busiest time of year for retailers

The apparently delayed forensic scrutiny of the flat, which occurred after the body was discovered

Failure of LE to provide the public a clear picture of how the victim would have appeared, based on what she was wearing when discovered - a situation which continues to this day

A difficult to take seriously focus by LE upon a pizza. Later, a missing sock became the focus

Failure of LE to secure the contents of garbage bins which were emptied prior to LE's publicised search through mountains of garbage

I can certainly understand criticism of LE's performance. It reminds me of the Janice Hogg murder and the five days forensic teams spent within a small, 3 bedroom flat. Yet they failed to discover the body which was beneath the bath. And they failed to find items thrown by the killer into the attic space

 

[mikeymot]

The application for no 44 was granted to Clifton College in 1988 and the work done around 1991, at which point the staff purchased the newly created flats.

ETA - I suspect the scaffolding around 42 reflects the fact that work is now underway to convert to four flats.

Quite right Application number: 88/00744/F
Some time since I looked it up.

 

[Nausicaa]

Applying the line of reasoning that the simplest answer is most often the right answer, then I would say that Miss Yeates was killed sometime on the evening of the 17th December and her body dumped shortly thereafter. That certainly seems to be the working hypothesis adopted by the local police. But then again, like any working hypothesis, it would be subject to revision in the light of any new evidence. After all beyond 8.40 pm ish on the Friday, the police have no secure timeline. They appear to believe that she did make it home, and may have good reason for so doing, but I don't think it's neccessarily a certainty. It also appears that they have no clear TOD. I would imagine that the usual forensic tests, liver temp and so on, are all somewhat comprised by the passage of time and the weather conditions, and the best that they can say is that she had been dead for several days before Xmas day. I therefore wouldn't exclude the possibility that she was killed sometime later than the Friday, and/or dumped sometime afterwards, simply because it's not possible to prove otherwise.
Just my opinion you understand.

Many thanks indeed Aneurin. I do indeed understand that this is just your personal opinion, but it strikes me as a singularly well-informed and judicious one.

But I would say that it appears to be an opportunistic rather than a planned crime, so that I would be sceptical about any hypothesis that was based on a convoluted explanation involving conveniently empty chest freezers of a certain capacity for example.

Yes, that sounds logical. I wonder if your scepticism would be equally aroused by a hypothesis that supposes, for instance, a conveniently switched off mobile phone even before there was any intention of committing a crime, conveniently unusable motorway CCTV footage, petrol conveniently paid for in cash, convenient absence of inconvenient witnesses in urban areas at crucial moments, etc.

I ask your view because such a hypothesis seems to have taken possession of most of the minds on this thread, while I and one or two others find it very hard to credit. Some assurance that thinking along those lines can hardly be realistic would undoubtedly release greater mental energy for pursuing the alternatives…

 

[jigzy]

........It reminds me of the Janice Hogg murder and the five days forensic teams spent within a small, 3 bedroom flat. Yet they failed to discover the body which was beneath the bath. And they failed to find items thrown by the killer into the attic space

OMG - off to google. Thanks.

 

[equationgirl]

Quite right Application number: 88/00744/F
Some time since I looked it up.

Using this application number I found the basic information about the application on the Bristol Council Planning Portal, BUT the UK Planning portal does not have it. Could be because it's an application from 1988 - the UKPP says that applications are only available on the website from when the council started using the service.

Still no docs though - not really surprised, it's a massive undertaking to scan and upload old documents onto a site for electronic access.

 

[laserdisc10]

OMG - off to google. Thanks.

Sorry, her name was Julie


Here's the Youtube documentary. In 4 parts. Mind blowing

http://www.youtube.com/user/RealCrimeUK#g/c/785586914D1C7BB7