MO - Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #9

[Celeste]

Ok, Baby Lisa had a cold. Mom goes to bed at 10:30. When my children had a cold at that age, they would wake up crying very often in the night when they started coughing or their noses were stuffed up and they had a hard time breathing.

Now, as mentioned, I am a sleep deprived mom and have been for years. What just say that DB would drift off to sleep and then Baby Lisa kept waking her. What just say that DB snapped?

It's the only thing that I can think of that makes somewhat of sense, unless an accident happened.

If the mom is involved, I really think she is suffering from PND or just snapped due to sleep deprivaty.

It's no excuse but this is the only logical theory I can come up with. I don't see a stranger abduction here. I just can't fathom it.

Someone mentioned a while back the fact that Debbie may have been especially stressed bc it was Jeremy's first night working. If he normally helped with the bedtime routine, she may have had a hard time of it on this particular night. I'm speaking from experience...I have 3 kids myself and I really can't stand when I have to handle bedtime on my own. Then the baby's sick on top of all that? And her son being in her bed tells me that he was likely giving her problems, too. So maybe you're on to something here.

 

[norest4thewicked]

And talking to the boys could be why LE suspected Debbie was involved from the get-go. I still hold the opinion there was no kidnapping. The house was staged and maybe the son heard the commotion from the window screen or was awakened by lights.

There have been claims neither monitor nor dog alerted to noise but no explanation for why the son was sleeping with her. And we know it is a question asked by the Dad, which is why I'm wondering why he is so supportive of her. What was her answer? Does anybody know? I'm betting the son heard noise and maybe saw what was going on.

JMO

I completely agree! I don't think that the parents have talked at all to the media about the kids. Remember last night with our page after page of discussion from so many of us about whether the kids had been questioned or not? And it was there all the time...

 

[curiousc]

In addition to my theory way above, this is the dad's first night shift. Did he help with the kids at night prior to starting night shifts? If so, perhaps DB felt very overwhelmed.

 

[jjenny]

Is someone stealing a ready-made family?

What?

 

[shefner]

If Lisa died in the house wouldn't the cadaver dogs have picked up a scent?

But were they cadaver dogs....or just search dogs? I learned from another thread that there are differences in the kinds of dogs that are brought to the scene.

Cadaver dogs are trained to search for dead humans. Search dogs are trained to track live scent.

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

Some dogs (Max, I'm talking about you) will bark at the wind, or even nothing at all, While others (Apple) will only bark when promted to by another dog and some seldome bark (Rustee). However, dogs pick up on scents very readily, and anyone breaking into the family home would be putting off phermones (sp?) and sweat while in the process of a crime. Most if not all dogs would pick up on this scent and know something is aloof, and would bark. Mind you there are exceptions to every rule, but even the meekest of dogs will bark if they sense danger to the family. JMHO!

 

[makinwaffles]

If Lisa died in the house wouldn't the cadaver dogs have picked up a scent?

as far as i know, cadaver dogs only pick up decomp, decomp needs time :twocents:

 

[ela_ss teacher]

Before I slink back into the shadows of lurkdom I just want to throw out the "if not the parent/s, then what happened to the baby" scenario.

1. Someone quietly snuck in not disturbing the dog, the baby monitor- or turned it off, nor anyone else, either through that window or the possibly unlocked door, turned on aALL of the lights, and quitely snuck back out with the baby while replacing the screen leaving it bent. This someone knew that nobody would be awake at this time and that they could get away with it.

2. One of the kids hurt the baby somehow and mom concealed her. When, how, where?

3. Mommy hurt the baby and concealed her. When, how, where?

4. The story about dad being at work isn't true and he did something to the baby and concealed her. When, how, where?

5. A teen who had access to the home, knew the dad wasn't home and came in to get the baby. WHY?? When, how, where?

6. The baby was kidnapped by someone/a stranger? who wanted a baby of their own or worse, a child molester.

I'm sure there are other scenarios but these are the ones I could come up with for now.

 

[norest4thewicked]

If Lisa died in the house wouldn't the cadaver dogs have picked up a scent?

We heard that the dogs couldn't find her scent coming from the house. I don't know that cadaver dogs specifically were ever in the house.

 

[curiousc]

Someone mentioned a while back the fact that Debbie may have been especially stressed bc it was Jeremy's first night working. If he normally helped with the bedtime routine, she may have had a hard time of it on this particular night. I'm speaking from experience...I have 3 kids myself and I really can't stand when I have to handle bedtime on my own. Then the baby's sick on top of all that? And her son being in her bed tells me that he was likely giving her problems, too. So maybe you're on to something here.

Thinking on the same page as you as I just commented if dad helped at night prior to his working night shift.

I honestly am starting to think this theory is what happened.

ETA: I have three kids myself but always do the night routine.

 

[mentalsolstice]

I guess my dogs are morons then. They bark when my boyfriend comes over, when my daughter comes over, when anyone comes up to the door they bark, even me.
And if that isn't bad enough my neighbor has 6 dogs who also bark at the slightest noise. It can really get noisy around here.

Our neighbors have counted on our lab being a watch dog and alerting them if something bad was going on. And sometimes she will do exactly that. Other times...well, let's just say if it's going to interrupt her beauty sleep, don't count on her being the protector of the neighborhood.

 

[Jacie Estes]

OK....I have finally figured out what happened with the baby monitor.

The abductor came in the unlocked door, turned on all the lights....went into the mom's room and cut on the lights...turned off the baby monitor. Then the abductor snuck down the hall, went into the kitchen and made a sandwich. Then he/she grabbed up all the cell phones....and took the baby.

Oh yes, and he/she fed the dog a big bone and left some milk for the stray kitten.

*sigh*

Sorry to make light of this...but I don't think things are adding up.

To quote Churchill, 'It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key'. He was talking about Russia but this is much more complicated than that.

 

[nursebeeme]

Decades of statistics on infant abductions in the U.S. suggest one of the least likely scenarios in this week's disappearance of a Kansas City baby is that a stranger broke into her home and quietly snatched her from her crib.
But the numbers also lead national experts to believe that if 10-month-old Lisa Irwin was taken by an intruder in the middle of the night, as her parents told investigators, she is likely still alive.

Strangers who kidnap infants or young children, though rare, often do so because they want a child of their own, not because they intend to hurt or kill the child, said David Finkelhor, director of the Crimes Against Children Research Center at the University of New Hampshire.

"The recovery rate for infants is very, very high. There is real hope here," added Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in Arlington, Va.

But the experts acknowledge that investigators often focus on close relatives when a baby goes missing, in part because statistics show that far more infants and young children are killed by a parent than a stranger.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/08/national/main20117737.shtml


---------------

eta:

(((I had to gather my thoughts))

the above is why statistically and investigatively LE is focusing on the parents and trying to close all the gaps.. they HAVE to start from the center and work outwardly... once the parents had a meltdown and needed a break it threw a wrench into this "start from the center" approach... of course the poly failure did not help them clear the center at all. but we MUST look at other cases where poly failures had NO BEARING WHATSOVEVER on the ultimate outcome of the case... two in point: Amber Dubois, and Jaycee Dugard.. there are more. If this WAS stranger, I truly hope the family is rested and ready to get their circle cleared so the investigation can span outward. I am personally not convinced the family had a thing to do with this. It is just my opinion. But doors closed or open.. monitor off or on... pjs or shorts to bed, this family, in all outward appearances to me have three young children they love dearly and one is missing now.

just my two cents and my opinion only

 

[tlcya]

I agree with norest4thewicked, Websleuths is THE place to be, all those guests lurking down there should consider joining and giving us your thoughts.

If you've been lurking and watching you are probably learning that we often disagree and have differing views but we all respect one another and appreciate everyone's varied opinions.

Sometimes we all have to agree to disagree, but there is no better place than Websleuths for respectful debate and exchanging viewpoints.

:wave: to guests, jump on in, the water's fine.

 

[SuziQ]

Do we have a last known sighting of Lisa by anyone outside the home?

There are pictures of Lisa at her brother's birthday party earlier on the day she was kidnapped.

 

[Just-a-Guy]

Who talked to the dog?

The stray cat.

 

[bessie]

The trouble I have with thinking the mom could have "done" something is that everything here being offered about dogs, noise, etc. shows how hard it would have been for her to do something without waking the kids and the neighborhood.

I can certainly hear a car (like the brother's) turning into the driveway of the house across the street, and it is noisy here, not a quiet neighborhood. I regularly wake up at 2 or 3 a.m. because this is happening.

Ditto the dogs - just because they knew her and the brother does not mean they wouldn't bark if a car pulled up.

If they wanted to make it look like an intruder took her, but had really harmed her, wouldn't they have staged more of a scene with the screen? Why admit she left the door unlocked? Why go to bed with the lights on - she wanted to police to think the intruder was dumb?

To me, it seems more likely that something happened, an intruder tested the screen but then thought to check the door, found it open, made enough noise to wake one boy but not the mom. Boy goes into her bed, she's tired enough that she does not rouse significantly. Next thing they all know, the father is home and wondering why all the lights are on.

And my family slept with all the doors closed because it saves on heating bills and means kids don't wake up to every little noise - like their dad who works the night shift coming home.

Well, if it was a staged kidnapping, they surely didn't didn't put much thought into it. Lights on all over the house does not sound like an intruder scenario. And why not say, I heard the dog bark but I rolled over and went back to sleep? Cover stories are intended to answer questions, not create them. So then I come around to thinking that something was going on when the dad drove up, and mom dived in the bed. But then there are those darn lights. :banghead:

We slept with doors open when my son was a child because I was a worry wart, but I accept that some families don't. That's fine; to each his own. Yet I have to wonder, who would close all of the interior doors in a house with the lights still on inside the rooms? One room, maybe. But all of the lights?

I really, truly want to believe the parents, but no matter how far I suspend my disbelief, I'm having a tough time with some of the details.

 

[LotsaLatte]

I kept the doors shut.

I kept the doors open slightly in all of my children's rooms UNTIL a Fire Marshall said "I know you love that little girl but you need to close the door in case there is a fire or you won't have a little girl to love." Yikes! I started closing the children's doors. I didn't use baby monitors with any of my children. I just check, check, double and triple check them. Even now and the youngest is almost 12 - lol

 

[lauriej]

And talking to the boys could be why LE suspected Debbie was involved from the get-go. I still hold the opinion there was no kidnapping. The house was staged and maybe the son heard the commotion from the window screen or was awakened by lights.

There have been claims neither monitor nor dog alerted to noise but no explanation for why the son was sleeping with her. And we know it is a question asked by the Dad, which is why I'm wondering why he is so supportive of her. What was her answer? Does anybody know? I'm betting the son heard noise and maybe saw what was going on.

JMO

..she said something like ----that's how she likes to spend time with her child.

..weird though, that jeremy would ask why the 5 year old was in bed with her ??? ( if this is something she does usually.)

..or was she just allowing him in there, b/c jeremy was gone for the night?

 

[JeannieC]

JI didn't say all the lights in the house were on. It was never said that bedroom lights were on. He was talking about what he saw when he entered the house.

Jeremy Irwin told Fox News that he immediately knew something was wrong when he came home from work at 4 a.m. Tuesday and discovered an open window, an unlocked front door and lights turned on.

"Most of the lights in the house were on, which was really weird," Irwin said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/0...rents-missing-baby-cooperative/#ixzz1aFdHKmmA[/QUOTE]