Conrad Murray trial -Day fifteen

[oceanblueeyes]

Here is one thing Chernof tried to insinuate. He was talking about Schafer's role in the early paper on propofol he did with White and his first wife. Schafer said his main role was doing the math because early computers could not keep up with the necessary math. And so Chernoff tried to kind of downplay Schafers role by saying stuff like " those were old computers, like the Osborn models, tiny screens, old school computers..." Making it sound as if him doing the math was not that big of a deal.

I'd like to see Chernoff try to do it!:floorlaugh:

If EC shuffles those papers on Monday like he did this afternoon I will be bonkers.

 

[peace9274]

When I watched his testimony I thought he was very genuine and believable. But there are two big problems, IIRC. One was that he testified about helping CM move MJ off of the bed BEFORE the EMTs arrived. But the paramedic said that MJ was still on the bed when they arrived. I thought that was problematic.

Also, in the cross examination, I think a lot of damage was done about the bottle in the bag because of a few things. Alvarez did not initially tell LE about that bottle in the bag. It was months before he did so. And that , added to the fact the CSI girl never took a picture, and did not write it that way in her report, makes it suspect.qu If I were on the jury I might feel it was tainted info.[/ote]

BBM
Regardless of any issues that are problematic, any holes, or descrepensies,
any changes in stories, or questionible evidence, any assumptions, theories,
or way-off simulations (if any).....

..... there still remains PROOF of 15 (or is it 17?) violations that CM
committed while MJ was in his care!!!

Even if MJ had lived... CM should still have had his license suspended with
scoldings from the Texas, Calif, & Neveda Medical Licensing Boards.

But with no witnesses or camera's watching CM, he would've gotten away with it...
and probably had gotten away with negligence many times before.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

When I watched his testimony I thought he was very genuine and believable. But there are two big problems, IIRC. One was that he testified about helping CM move MJ off of the bed BEFORE the EMTs arrived. But the paramedic said that MJ was still on the bed when they arrived. I thought that was problematic.

Also, in the cross examination, I think a lot of damage was done about the bottle in the bag because of a few things. Alvarez did not initially tell LE about that bottle in the bag. It was months before he did so. And that , added to the fact the CSI girl never took a picture, and did not write it that way in her report, makes it suspect. If I were on the jury I might feel it was tainted info.

He was on the 911 call for over two minutes and he and CM were in the middle of moving MJ off the bed when the EMTs walked into the room. So I don't see that as a problem at all. The more pertinent question is why didnt Murray already have MJ on the floor? He certainly had ample time as he waited for security to show up.

He had no reason to tell them in the quick interview LE did with him at the ER. They just asked him was he the one who called 911 and when he came on duty that day. They had no reason to ask him further questions since they were only assisting in a death investigation at that time. The homicide investigation didn't even start until August, 2009. At the time it happened Alberto had no clue that Murray was the reason MJ was dead. IMO, everyone at that time ..even the public thought MJ had probably overdosed on his own.

He tried through his lawyer to make contact with them when he saw in the media where LE was carrying out bags out of the mansion. That was in early July and he tried to meet with LE two times but because of LE scheduling and only 3 detectives assigned to the case that didn't happen until August due to no fault of Alberto's. The lead detective testified that AA did try to contact them and LE was shorthanded.

If the evidence wasnt found just like he said he saw....now that would be one thing but LE did find the propofol bottle with Murray's fingerprint and the slit bag along with the bag AA said he used to pick up Murray's drug stash.

There is nothing to be suspicious about when it comes to Alberto imo.

The SW of what was taken from the mansion was sealed and not released to the public until many many months later.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

[/QUOTE]
=peace

BBM
Regardless of any issues that are problematic, any holes, or discrepancies,
any changes in stories, or questionable evidence, any assumptions, theories,
or way-off simulations (if any).....

..... there still remains PROOF of 15 (or is it 17?) violations that CM
committed while MJ was in his care!!!

Even if MJ had lived... CM should still have had his license suspended with
scoldings from the Texas, Calif, & Neveda Medical Licensing Boards.

But with no witnesses or camera's watching CM, he would've gotten away with it...
and probably had gotten away with negligence many times before.[/QUOTE]


They have no reason to disbelieve Alberto. They know he is not the one that bought, brought and administered the drugs that caused the death of MJ.

If the jury concentrates on Alberto who is a non-issue and not an element in proving the case whatsoever then the defense has succeeded in throwing up smoke and mirrors.

ETA: Sorry the quote seems to be messed up.


IMO

 

[Crosby87]

Chernoff asked Dr. Shafer about the level of Propofol found in MJ’s brain which was written on the Coronor's Report.

Dr. Shafer said there was no propofol level in MJ's brain.

 

[katydid23]

He was on the 911 call for over two minutes and he and CM were in the middle of moving MJ off the bed when the EMTs walked into the room. So I don't see that as a problem at all. The more pertinent question is why didnt Murray already have MJ on the floor? He certainly had ample time as he waited for security to show up.

He had no reason to tell them in the quick interview LE did with him at the ER. They just asked him was he the one who called 911 and when he came on duty that day. They had no reason to ask him further questions since they were only assisting in a death investigation at that time. The homicide investigation didn't even start until August, 2009. At the time it happened Alberto had no clue that Murray was the reason MJ was dead. IMO, everyone at that time ..even the public thought MJ had probably overdosed on his own.

He tried through his lawyer to make contact with them when he saw in the media where LE was carrying out bags out of the mansion. That was in early July and he tried to meet with LE two times but because of LE scheduling and only 3 detectives assigned to the case that didn't happen until August due to no fault of Alberto's. The lead detective testified that AA did try to contact them and LE was shorthanded.

If the evidence wasnt found just like he said he saw....now that would be one thing but LE did find the propofol bottle with Murray's fingerprint and the slit bag along with the bag AA said he used to pick up Murray's drug stash.

There is nothing to be suspicious about when it comes to Alberto imo.

The SW of what was taken from the mansion was sealed and not released to the public until many many months later.

IMO

I hope the jury will understand all of it in this way. I have missed some of the testimony so I did not have all of this info in my mind. I know they are taking it all in.

I agree with you that CM is the negligent and guilty party here. I am just shell shocked after the last trial I followed, so I am not too optimistic.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Chernoff asked Dr. Shafer about the level of Propofol found in MJ’s brain which was written on the Coronor's Report.

Dr. Shafer said there was no propofol level in MJ's brain.

I believe he said that the coroner did not test the level of propofol in the brain, didn't he?

But Dr. Shafer said he didn't need it because there is a model which will tell the amount in the brain based on what was found else where.

IMO

 

[Crosby87]

Dr Shafer told Chernoff because there were no medical records kept on June 25 2009 by Dr. Murray, he is missing important data.

 

[EPfan]

When I watched his testimony I thought he was very genuine and believable. But there are two big problems, IIRC. One was that he testified about helping CM move MJ off of the bed BEFORE the EMTs arrived. But the paramedic said that MJ was still on the bed when they arrived. I thought that was problematic.

Also, in the cross examination, I think a lot of damage was done about the bottle in the bag because of a few things. Alvarez did not initially tell LE about that bottle in the bag. It was months before he did so. And that , added to the fact the CSI girl never took a picture, and did not write it that way in her report, makes it suspect. If I were on the jury I might feel it was tainted info.

I am going to totally agree with you. Because, I have been thinking the same thing.
This is a criminal case, we know there is negligence, but is this Criminal.(there is a big difference) That is what the question is going to be.
I also think the verdict is going to depend on the testimony of Dr. Shafer verses Dr. White. JMOO So far Dr. Shafer isn't as good a witness being cross examined as a prosecution witness but that is to be expected. I have no ideal what Dr. White is going to say but it will be interesting because he is either going to make or break this case.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I hope the jury will understand all of it in this way. I have missed some of the testimony so I did not have all of this info in my mind. I know they are taking it all in.

I agree with you that CM is the negligent and guilty party here. I am just shell shocked after the last trial I followed, so I am not too optimistic.

I think they are listening very closely. All the time Beth, Alan Duke and Jean have said this jury is very attentive and have not been bored although today Judge Pastor took a break after an hour so they may have become bored quickly this afternoon.

I know you are and I am still in shock and dismayed by the Anthony verdict. I think it has made a lot of us very unsure of our justice system but really truthfully cases like Anthony's and jurors like the Pinellas 12 rarely happen.

IMO

 

[Melanie]

Chernoff firmly reminded Dr. Shafer that Dr. Murray was on trial for his life.

He is? From what I heard Dr. Murray has little chance of going to prison and will probably serve his sentence at home with an electronic monitor. It's not like the dude is going to death row.

As far as not being able to practice again, all I can say is Thank Gawd. Who would want him as a doctor now anyway?

MOO

Mel

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I am going to totally agree with you. Because, I have been thinking the same thing.
This is a criminal case, we know there is negligence, but is this Criminal.(there is a big difference) That is what the question is going to be.
I also think the verdict is going to depend on the testimony of Dr. Shafer verses Dr. White. JMOO So far Dr. Shafer isn't as good a witness being cross examined as a prosecution witness but that is to be expected. I have no ideal what Dr. White is going to say but it will be interesting because he is either going to make of break this case.

It is just as criminal as someone getting on the road behind the wheel and acting with gross recklessness and negligence and killing someone.

Yes, this case is very much a criminal case. In fact IMO due to the gross deviations in the standard of care the acts were soooooo wantonly reckless and negligent that it should have been charged at a higher degree.

Every medical expert I have seen speak out have said in their opinion Murray's actions are criminal. So even his own peers knows he committed criminal acts.

IMO

 

[Crosby87]

The claim by attorneys of Michael Jackson's doctor that the singer killed himself with an injection of the powerful anesthetic propofol is a "crazy scenario," a top anesthesiology expert testified on Thursday.

http://www.dnaindia.com/entertainme...rug-a-crazy-scenario-anesthesiologist_1601614

 

[oceanblueeyes]

He is? From what I heard Dr. Murray has little chance of going to prison and will probably serve his sentence at home with an electronic monitor. It's not like the dude is going to death row.

As far as not being able to practice again, all I can say is Thank Gawd. Who would want him as a doctor now anyway?

MOO

Mel

That was meant for the jury. He is not on trial for his life. That is Drama Queen spin.

The public would be better off without doctors like Murray out there.

He is a high risk taker with a patient's life. Drs should stick to their hypocrattic oaths.

IMO

 

[EPfan]

It is just as criminal as someone getting on the road behind the wheel and acting with gross recklessness and negligence and killing someone.

Yes, this case is very much a criminal case. In fact IMO due to the gross deviations in the standard of care the acts were soooooo wantonly reckless and negligent that it should have been charged at a higher degree.

Every medical expert I have seen speak out have said in their opinion Murray's actions are criminal. So even his own peers knows he committed criminal acts.

IMO

The difference is there is negligence all the time with Dr's and nurses, in hospitals and clinics, they lose their license but aren't prosecuted criminally. This is a criminal case. You have to prove criminal negligence. Maybe the prosecution has already done this in the eyes of the jury. We will also have to hear what the instructions are from the judge when the jury deliberates. I have a relative that is a very great attorney and helps me alot. If this case wasn't Michael Jackson we wouldn't be in the court room.

 

[peace9274]

That was meant for the jury. He is not on trial for his life. That is Drama Queen spin.

The public would be better off without doctors like Murray out there.

He is a high risk taker with a patient's life. Drs should stick to their hypocrattic oaths.

IMO

Every word you said is absolutely the truth.

Very well said, o.blueeyes!
Short and to the point!

 

[EPfan]

He is? From what I heard Dr. Murray has little chance of going to prison and will probably serve his sentence at home with an electronic monitor. It's not like the dude is going to death row.

As far as not being able to practice again, all I can say is Thank Gawd. Who would want him as a doctor now anyway?

MOO

Mel

That's what I think he meant, like not his life literally but his lifestyle and that sort of life, job, reputation, etc.

 

[Crosby87]

Murray defense cross-examines propofol expert

Toxicology studies of drugs in Jackson's blood and computer models Shafer used to analyze how he died were overshadowed Friday when Chernoff focused on the personal and professional rivalry between Shafer and Dr. Paul White, the defense expert.

The experts first met in 1978 when White was an assistant professor at Stanford University and Shafer was a medical student. They became friends and co-authored research papers, but this trial appears to have changed their friendship.

Chernoff accused Shafer of wanting to "shove it down his (White's) professional throat" in a question stricken from the record by Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor.

White was lectured by Judge Pastor about comments about Shafer attributed to him in an online blog.

White admitted Friday that he told a reporter that he had changed his opinion of Shafer after hearing his testimony Thursday. "I was his teacher when he was a medical student," E! News Online quoted White as saying. "The truth will come out. It always does."

White denied calling Shafer "a ," as the website quoted him as saying.

Pastor, who imposed a gag order on all parties in the trial, set a contempt of court hearing for White next month.

"You are not in any way shape or form, to comment on your views regarding the state of the evidence, witnesses or your views as to any counsel in this case," Pastor said.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/21/justice/california-conrad-murray-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_bn2

 

[Crosby87]

I believe he said that the coroner did not test the level of propofol in the brain, didn't he?

But Dr. Shafer said he didn't need it because there is a model which will tell the amount in the brain based on what was found else where.

IMO

<snipped>

At one point, Chernoff became testy with Shafer, snapping, "You do understand the difference between opinion and fact, don't you? You do understand that everything you've said in the last two days is your opinion, don't you?"

Chernoff added, "Would you be at all surprised if other medical experts disagree with you?"

Shafer's testimony also contradicted the earlier account of Dr. Paul White -- the anesthesiologist expert who will testify for the defense and who is a 30-year colleague and friend of Shafer's.

White earlier in the year prepared a report that said Jackson could have died from ingesting propofol, a theory Shafer picked apart on the stand Thursday.

That led to a "heated" discussion between White and attorney Chernoff, according to CNN.

The day ended with Shafer telling defense that there was no measurement of the propofol in Jackson's brain included in his coroner's report -- which should spark a robust discussion when court resumes on Monday.

CNN reports the trial is expected to go to the jury for deliberations next week.

Murray faces up to four years in prison and loss of his medical license if convicted, though a new California law could mean his sentence would be reduced to two years and be served in a county jail.

http://www.thewrap.com/music/column...xamine-dr-steven-shafer-propofol-exp?page=0,1

 

[borndem]

BBM

I, too, see a resemblence between Prince and Dr Klein.
I see a resemblece between Prince and Paris, also.

And... I also heard that Dr Klein provided the sperm for her IVF.

BBM

I see the Klein/Prince resemblance as well. Face shape and especially the middle section of their faces (high part of cheeks and their eyes). It's not easy, tho, for me so see a resemblance between Prince and Paris.

But I will say this about Paris: She is one of the prettiest young girls I have ever seen. Her eyes are absolutely gorgeous and her face is near-perfect. What a beautiful, beautiful child (young lady).