JonBenet – 15 years later

[DeeDee249]

In many cases of abuse within a family (both sexual and physical) - not every child in the family is a victim of the abuse. Sometimes only one child is targeted for a variety of reasons: availability, vulnerability, a passive more easily intimidated nature, and in some cases of sexual abuse- there is an attraction to the child. Some cases of sexual abuse are situational- meaning the abuser is not generally attracted to children, but desires sexual stimulation and/or release and the child is available.
Just because no OTHER child of JR has come forward to claim abuse does not mean JB was not a victim of such abuse. Maybe JB was the only victim.

 

[BBB167893]

In many cases of abuse within a family (both sexual and physical) - not every child in the family is a victim of the abuse. Sometimes only one child is targeted for a variety of reasons: availability, vulnerability, a passive more easily intimidated nature, and in some cases of sexual abuse- there is an attraction to the child. Some cases of sexual abuse are situational- meaning the abuser is not generally attracted to children, but desires sexual stimulation and/or release and the child is available.
Just because no OTHER child of JR has come forward to claim abuse does not mean JB was not a victim of such abuse. Maybe JB was the only victim.

That's my point in a nutshell, DD. Not every molester is driven by pedophilic urges, number one. And number two, regardless of what drives them, sometimes only ONE child is targeted, for the reasons DD outlines.

Folks, I may not be ready for the FBI Academy quite yet, but I've studied enough of crime to know one basic, important fact for certain: the vast majority of criminals--child molesters especially--are like predatory animals (ie, lions, wolves, etc.) in that they tend to go after who they judge to be the weakest members of the herd. And JB would have been very easy to manipulate and control.

To elaborate on that, it helps to remember that there's a reason why children make such good victims: they are not able to defend themselves. I don't mean just physically, but mentally. They don't always know it's wrong, and even if they do, they are very easy to control through fear or bribery. JB would have actually been a BETTER target than most children her age. Point of fact, JB would have been the IDEAL victim for a molester: she was beautiful, charming, friendly, and most of all, as part of her pageant training, she had been taught to offer her body to adults to admire AND she was specifically trained to be obediant. Patsy and her mother Nedra saw to that!

 

[RainyGirl]

That's my point in a nutshell, DD. Not every molester is driven by pedophilic urges, number one. And number two, regardless of what drives them, sometimes only ONE child is targeted, for the reasons DD outlines.

Folks, I may not be ready for the FBI Academy quite yet, but I've studied enough of crime to know one basic, important fact for certain: the vast majority of criminals--child molesters especially--are like predatory animals (ie, lions, wolves, etc.) in that they tend to go after who they judge to be the weakest members of the herd. And JB would have been very easy to manipulate and control.

To elaborate on that, it helps to remember that there's a reason why children make such good victims: they are not able to defend themselves. I don't mean just physically, but mentally. They don't always know it's wrong, and even if they do, they are very easy to control through fear or bribery. JB would have actually been a BETTER target than most children her age. Point of fact, JB would have been the IDEAL victim for a molester: she was beautiful, charming, friendly, and most of all, as part of her pageant training, she had been taught to offer her body to adults to admire AND she was specifically trained to be obediant. Patsy and her mother Nedra saw to that!

Hi SuperDave, :seeya:

I rarely post here, but have always appreciated your dedication, incredibly good research and insight on this case, I firmly believe that you have the best grasp on what may have happened to poor JonBenet. In other words......I think you've most likely got it right, and I genuinely respect and admire you for that!

I attended C.U Boulder for my undergrad Education degree in the early 90's.....I left Boulder just a few years prior her tragedy. While in Boulder, I worked as a babysitter/nanny and tutor to some of the wealthiest families there (I was with a "service" of nannies, childcare help, etc.). I worked almost exclusively "on the upper hill" and in the surrounding area as it is known. As a matter of fact, one family I tutored for were just 5 homes away from the Ramsey home. I rode my bike past that house more times than I can count! As a ramen noodle-eating college student I was blown away by most of my clients' homes/mini-mansions, but it was always about their kiddos......and I have such fond memories of those sweet, fresh-faced and loving kids! That's why I was stunned when I heard about what happened. I even called one of my former client families (one nearby the Ramsey's) when I heard the news (after JBR had been found) and the Mom couldn't get two words out of her mouth. She said she'd call me back, but I never heard from her. I didn't press it, and I don't blame her one bit for being in shock herself.

Sorry to be all over the place here (insomniac right now!), but I wanted to tell you and the other case followers that never once did I feel worried about being alone with the kids in their homes. Several times I even stayed for 1-2 weeks 24/7 at the families' homes while the parents went on vacation (without their kids). True, I set alarms but never did I feel unsafe. It wasn't just a naiveness on my part (I was a prior crime victim myself years ago), but the neighborhood just felt so safe!! (Can you tell I'm an RDI?? )
We were many blocks away from the college bar/party scene and (to be frank) the neighborhood around the Ramseys had A LOT of "neighborhood watch" people and watchful (read: nosy) residents even back then!! I always had to introduce myself to neighbors and even then my clients got inquiring calls about "that girl" entering their home!! Believe me......I KNOW the area well.....and people were always on the lookout for those "unsavory CU students" (LOL) in THEIR neighborhood!! (As anyone should, naturally.....I think neighborhood watches and awareness of your surroundings are a good thing.). I just used to chuckle at some of the more "over the top" residents who thought a petite, bookish co-ed like me (always with textbooks in my arms) was either a thief or a drug dealer....lol).

Sorry for the lengthy post! I just wanted to share my experience of JBR's neighborhood.

Peace,
Raine

 

[cynic]

Although Steve’s comments on the Websleuths Radio 15 anniversary JBR show were not as lengthy as many of us would have liked, he has chosen to follow the case quietly following his resignation.
I’m sure some here have not heard the following interview with ST from 2006 on the Caplis and Silverman radio show during the height of the Karr debacle, and it is a reasonably comprehensive interview that is well worth listening to, IMO.

Part One:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB50Vf41kv8"]stcapsilv1 - YouTube[/ame]

Part Two:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R7SN7En6Fk"]stcapsilv2 - YouTube[/ame]

Part Three:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aQhftBq3ts"]stcapsilv3 - YouTube[/ame]


“…it may just continue into eternity as an unresolved homicide…”
-Steve Thomas

 

[Tessa2009]

On the other hand, no one seems clear on the motive. I think most believe it was an accidental death, but was it out of rage (PDI) or sexual abuse (JDI)? If sexual abuse, how come no other Ramsey kids have come forward to claim sexual abuse?

Respectfully snipped by me

IMHO, Patsy was the abuser, it explains why no other child from the Ramsey's ever came forward....But then again, maybe we will once JR dies????

 

[spamelope]

I wanted to share this with everyone, but wasn't sure where to put it. I hope this is okay. It's a great read, and gives me a smidgen of hope that DA Garnett is cleaning up 30 years of corruption in Boulder.

Boulder County DA steps up cold-case prosecutions

By Erica Meltzer Camera Staff Writer
Posted: 01/07/2012 07:01:37 PM MST
When Boulder prosecutors file charges this week against Michael Clark in the 1994 shooting of city employee Marty Grisham, it will be the eighth cold case homicide in which the Boulder County District Attorney's Office has pursued charges against a suspect since 2008.

http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-county-news/ci_19697151

 

[DeeDee249]

I truly want to be hopeful, but I feel what Dr. Lee said rings all too true. To proceed with this case they have to confess their sins. There could still be tremendous pressure put on any DA, now or future, to keep this case cold. LW still looms large on this case, and the defense firm still has tremendous power. The present DA has nothing to hide, but those who do are still around. I also feel that at the end of the day, this case is not prosecutable because they KNOW who did it and the perp is either dead (Patsy) or the age of the perp at the time prevents him from ever being held accountable (BR). This presents a problem even if deciding to bring charges of tampering with evidence or covering up a murder or giving false information to police against JR- to prosecute that aspect, you have to admit there was something to tamper with, cover up or lie about. And especially in the case of BR, you are right back to not being able to even MENTION it.

 

[Tadpole12]

Although Steve’s comments on the Websleuths Radio 15 anniversary JBR show were not as lengthy as many of us would have liked, he has chosen to follow the case quietly following his resignation.
I’m sure some here have not heard the following interview with ST from 2006 on the Caplis and Silverman radio show during the height of the Karr debacle, and it is a reasonably comprehensive interview that is well worth listening to, IMO.

Part One:
stcapsilv1 - YouTube

Heyya cynic.
Yes, much appreciated for posting of the links.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB50Vf41kv8&feature=related"]stcapsilv1 - YouTube[/ame]

ST comments re M(K)L.
chief deputy under Alex Hunter.

(4:09) ST:.....even in 1998, the summer of '98, she was a staunch defender of the Ramseys, and I noted that in the book, and Patsy in particular.

 

[tezi]

Only the Boulder DA and BPD have the jurisdiction to proceed with the case. Other jurisdictions may offer to help (as Denver did, only to be rebuffed) but only Boulder may proceed with the case.
NO unsolved murder case is ever closed.

The FBI was involved at the very beginning, when it was thought to be a kidnapping. It was the FBI's CASKU (Child Abduction and Serial Killer Unit) that was there early on the morning of the 26th. After reviewing the note, and observing the parents, the FBI had some advice for the BPD. They said "You're going to be finding her body". They smelled a rat right away.
The FBI was sent away by the Chief of Police, who was insulted at the suggestion that the BPD couldn't handle the case. Um..right.
Later, when the FBI was proved right- and it became a murder rather than a kidnapping, the FBI had to cede control of the case to the local authorities.

RBBM: Actually DeeDee, the Boulder County Sheriff's Department can investigate too, because Boulder is inside the county and the Sheriff's Department has jurisdiction over the entire county. In fact, I believe at one point, the Sheriff at the time thought about taking the investigation over from the BPD. I think I read that in PMPT.

 

[Tadpole12]

Book Review: The Other Side of Suffering: The Father of JonBenet Ramsty Tells the Story of His Journey by John Ramsey with Marie Chapian
Published: Jan 16, 2012

http://blogcritics.org/books/article/book-review-the-other-side-of3/


Amazon, kindle price reduced 50%:
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Other-Side-Suffering-JonBenet-ebook/dp/B004QX07F0"]Amazon.com: The Other Side of Suffering: The Father of JonBenet Ramsey Tells the Story of His Journey from Grief to Grace eBook: John Ramsey, Marie Chapian: Kindle Store@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XcYdu07aL.@@AMEPARAM@@41XcYdu07aL[/ame]

Question: Who among us will buy the book?

 

[UKGuy]

Jeff Shapiro looks back...
[snip]
For several years, I secretly hoped I could prove the Ramseys were innocent. Not only did I feel compassion for them in the wake of relentless media attacks, my interaction with them forced me to recognize them as real people instead of mere names in newspaper print.
In 2006 however, after Patsy Ramsey died of ovarian cancer, I came to terms with the fact that the most compelling evidence suggested that she was somehow involved in the death of her daughter – even if it was just an accident covered up to look like an intentional killing.

[snip]
It is my firm belief that JonBenet’s killer was a deeply religious person who was calling out to God for help in a hysterical panic after the little girl died, someone who was trying to convince themselves that Satan was responsible for their actions.
Who would believe such a delusion?

[snip]
But as former LAPD Detective Mark Fuhrman once told me: not everything in a murder case is going to add up. You have to look at the totality of the evidence.
As much as I’d love to believe that DNA was not an unrelated, accidental transfer and that Patsy was completely innocent, I cannot. In addition, I do not believe that any other member of the Ramsey family was involved in JonBenet’s death or the cover up of her murder, because neither proposition is what the totality of the evidence suggests.
Finally, there were personal observations I made that led me to think Patsy could have been involved.
One summer day in 1997 I sat beside the Ramseys in church only a few months after JonBenet’s passing. At one point, the reverend, Rol Hoverstock put his hand on John’s shoulder and compassionately whispered to him, “You’re a good man, John. I know you didn’t do this.”
Minutes later, when he walked by Patsy sitting alone in an empty pew, the two made eye contact, but instead of greeting her as he did John, he angrily looked away and drifted right past her.
That stunned me.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011...eys-killer-15-year-anniversary-retrospective/

cynic,
So what information does the Rol Hoverstock have that we are missing? At that point he would not have been aware of the sexual molestation, or was he?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Book Review: The Other Side of Suffering: The Father of JonBenet Ramsty Tells the Story of His Journey by John Ramsey with Marie Chapian
Published: Jan 16, 2012

http://blogcritics.org/books/article/book-review-the-other-side-of3/


Amazon, kindle price reduced 50%:
Amazon.com: The Other Side of Suffering: The Father of JonBenet Ramsey Tells the Story of His Journey from Grief to Grace eBook: John Ramsey, Marie Chapian: Kindle Store

Question: Who among us will buy the book?

Not me. How can you believe anything he says. It was probably ghost-written too. He will have given his new wife a copy, its probably revised narrative.


.

 

[UKGuy]

I truly want to be hopeful, but I feel what Dr. Lee said rings all too true. To proceed with this case they have to confess their sins. There could still be tremendous pressure put on any DA, now or future, to keep this case cold. LW still looms large on this case, and the defense firm still has tremendous power. The present DA has nothing to hide, but those who do are still around. I also feel that at the end of the day, this case is not prosecutable because they KNOW who did it and the perp is either dead (Patsy) or the age of the perp at the time prevents him from ever being held accountable (BR). This presents a problem even if deciding to bring charges of tampering with evidence or covering up a murder or giving false information to police against JR- to prosecute that aspect, you have to admit there was something to tamper with, cover up or lie about. And especially in the case of BR, you are right back to not being able to even MENTION it.

DeeDee249,
It has to remain a cold case. Since a killer remains at large, with a potential arrest possible at any point in the future due to DNA matching. And of course to keep the forensic evidence sealed, otherwise it would have to be made available for public consumption.

I reckon Burke might say something once his father passes on, since at that point, it will not really matter. Since only only dedicated IDI people think the Ramsey's were not involved. Even the Karr episode underlines what has been going on. I'll bet the house on Steve Thomas still following this case, since he has seen most of the evidence, inclusing Holly Smith's opinion on the sexual abuse, remember that was excised and she was sidelined from the investigation, and told not to mention it in her autobiography!


.

 

[Coolmomof4]

cynic,
So what information does the Rol Hoverstock have that we are missing? At that point he would not have been aware of the sexual molestation, or was he?

.

I don't know, but I have known Jeff since the 9th grade (25 years) and this case was his life. I value his opinion on this case. He did come crazy things to get close to the Ramseys.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't know, but I have known Jeff since the 9th grade (25 years) and this case was his life. I value his opinion on this case. He did come crazy things to get close to the Ramseys.

Coolmomof4,
one last question: What did a Haverstock know, so to allow him to enoxerate John Ramsey?


.

 

[Coolmomof4]

Coolmomof4,
one last question: What did a Haverstock know, so to allow him to enoxerate John Ramsey?


.

Again, I have no idea. I would only be speculating that one or both of the Ramseys talked to their pastor about what happened... The point was that Jeff Shapiro had gotten close to the Ramseys - and had also begun attending their church regularly... even spoke to the pastor several times about converting. He was sitting there and witnessed the pastor's warmth and kindness to John and his cold distain for Patsy. That's interesting.

 

[DeeDee249]

Again, I have no idea. I would only be speculating that one or both of the Ramseys talked to their pastor about what happened... The point was that Jeff Shapiro had gotten close to the Ramseys - and had also begun attending their church regularly... even spoke to the pastor several times about converting. He was sitting there and witnessed the pastor's warmth and kindness to John and his cold distain for Patsy. That's interesting.

I was under the impression that Jeff Shapiro attended the Rs church for the express purpose of spying on them and trying to get information. Even his conversion was supposedly a ruse to be able to be a member of the congregation and get closer to the pastor. It was all done to get info on the Rs, not the other way around. He didn't come to the church or his "conversion" because he got close to the Rs, rather he used his alleged interest in the church to get close to the Rs.

 

[UKGuy]

Again, I have no idea. I would only be speculating that one or both of the Ramseys talked to their pastor about what happened... The point was that Jeff Shapiro had gotten close to the Ramseys - and had also begun attending their church regularly... even spoke to the pastor several times about converting. He was sitting there and witnessed the pastor's warmth and kindness to John and his cold distain for Patsy. That's interesting.

Coolmomof4,
It is very interesting. And of course implicates Patsy who is now dead and buried.

This suggests the Ramsey's, who were attempting to evade justice, told the pastor who killed JonBenet?

Or did the pastor simply not like women, which was reflected in his attitude towards John?


.

 

[Coolmomof4]

I was under the impression that Jeff Shapiro attended the Rs church for the express purpose of spying on them and trying to get information. Even his conversion was supposedly a ruse to be able to be a member of the congregation and get closer to the pastor. It was all done to get info on the Rs, not the other way around. He didn't come to the church or his "conversion" because he got close to the Rs, rather he used his alleged interest in the church to get close to the Rs.

yep. That's correct. Sorry I wasn't clear.

 

[cynic]

cynic,
So what information does the Rol Hoverstock have that we are missing? At that point he would not have been aware of the sexual molestation, or was he?

.

There is a contrast between the behavior of Father Rol Hoverstock and Reverend Dr. Frank Harrington.
Regardless of Jeff Shapiro’s observations, Steve Thomas’ observations seem to point more toward the possibility that there may have been a confession to the pastor in Atlanta as opposed to Rol, unless Rol simply had the ability to not arouse suspicion with the BPD.

The Reverend Rol Hoverstock told police about a phone call made that morning to Patsy’s parents, Nedra and Don Paugh, in Atlanta. Mrs. Paugh, he said, mentioned that Linda Hoffmann-Pugh had commented about how beautiful JonBenét was and expressed the fear that someone might kidnap her. The housekeeper’s name had come up several times in a short period, and police had already been told she had a key. She became the first suspect, and police made plans to contact her immediately.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 26

Father Rol Hoverstock came by the police department to give hair and handwriting samples—we were even checking out the family minister—and we asked his opinion about Psalms 35 and 36, without revealing why. That started him thinking about that book of the Bible, and when Detective Gosage and I met him later in the day at his home, Father Rol suggested that we take a look at Psalm 118. He thought it might be the origin of the $118,000 ransom figure. And in his sonorous voice, he read aloud one of the verses, which contained the phrase “bind the sacrifice with cords.”
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 68-69

Father Rol was trusted by both sides. Perhaps something might come of this. The next day I told him that the police department was willing, and all the Ramseys had to do was choose a time. “If they agree, we’ll be out there on the next thing smoking,” I said.
I did not mention that Commander Beckner had asked If it could wait fourteen days so we could get a better airfare.
A week later Father Rol showed up at our headquarters. Beckner joined us in a conference room, and I asked, “Any good news?”
Rol pursed his lips and shook his head. Team Ramsey lawyer Bryan Morgan had learned of the proposal and insisted on being at any meeting between the Ramseys and the Boulder cops. The pastor said he was “reamed” by the lawyer for becoming involved and had become so annoyed with the whole process, he vented his anger on all of us. “Enough of the ********,” Rol said.
But instead of an interview, all he could now offer was a meeting over coffee in the Ramseys’ living room. “That’s unacceptable,” I said. We weren’t about to fly to Georgia for a coffee klatch with a lawyer. “We’re back to square one.”
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 284-285

Trujillo and I went over to the Peachtree Presbyterian Church to talk with the Reverend Dr. Frank Harrington the next morning. He knew the family well, had married John and Patsy, buried Beth, baptized JonBenét, and had just buried her, too. If anyone could provide us with some insight, it should be the Reverend Harrington.
The minister met us with a frosty demeanor and a curt, “I’m not sure I want to talk to you. I will tell you I will share no privileged information.”
That set me thinking about the rules of privilege, in which information can legally be kept in confidence, such as between doctor and patient or lawyer and client. Also privileged would be a confession by a parishioner to a clergyman. “Is there privileged information?” I asked.
“I won’t answer that,” Harrington said. “Do I need an attorney?”
“We’re not here as adversaries, and you’re not a suspect,” I said, hoping to smooth things out. But we had to wait around for ten minutes until both a witness and a lawyer arrived, and our brief exchange yielded little information.
Why would a man of God reach for a lawyer rather than voluntarily give police everything he could to try to solve the terrible murder of a child, particularly if he wasn’t violating the sanctity of confession? But Harrington wasn’t alone in that peculiar behavior. I would repeatedly run into that same wall of silence, and more lawyers than I can remember, in the coming months. I wanted to scream at these people, “Don’t you even care?”
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 98-99