17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #14

[Concerned Papa]

This is what I think could be a reasonable assessment and convergence of statements, timelines, and the few facts that we have in this case. By no means do I view it as absolute, but considering the factors that are there to work with, it’s what makes the most sense to me,

What I started out with was a condensed version of the 911 call by Zimmerman where I removed non pertinent information not relating directly to time or placement. I took the running times shown and added the spans to the beginning time of the call to effect an actual timeline of occurrence for the events included.

On the portions that are theorized I have calculated distance and time using credible data which I have no problem explaining anything you’re curious about as to my methods. I think the calculations will prove to be valid whether the occurrence does or not.

I see the following 10 items as being critical time points in this chain of events. I am including my reasoning for their inclusion with each one.

(1) Trayvon Martin appears to have been at the clubhouse under an awning, due to the rain, when George Zimmerman called 911 at [7:09:34 pm]

(2) George Zimmerman appears to have parked part way down the street, talking to the 911 dispatcher and watching TM as he walked to the east towards the sidewalk [7:09:34 pm]

(3) As TM went further down the street, it seems likely to me that GZ moved his vehicle eastward to the point the sidewalk met the curb line to keep a better visual contact with TM [7:11:30 pm]

(4) Almost instantly, TM started running. [7:11:41 pm]

- At this point GZ said “S**t, he’s running” and the dispatcher immediately asked what direction he was going. GZ replied “down towards the back entrance”

-The back entrance and gate is due south at the end of the “back sidewalk”.

(5) GZ can be heard getting out of his vehicle to give chase [7:12:12 pm]

-The dispatcher asked GZ at this point “Are you following him?”

-GZ’s answer was Yes.

-Although the dispatcher advised him not to follow, we now have clear information on where GZ is at and where he is headed.

-GZ’s father also enlightened us as to this critical time of events when he said “Police told George not to follow Martin, and asked him where he was. However, because he was behind the town homes he could not see the nearest address.”

This is why, Robert Zimmerman claims, his son decided to keep following Martin, so he could obtain an address to give to police

-The “back sidewalk” is between and behind two rows of residences whose addresses would be on the front or opposite sides of the buildings. In fact, this particular group of buildings and sidewalk are the only place in the development that meets the qualifiers of headed towards the back entrance, being behind the townhomes, and being blind to any street address.

(6) TM, reaches his back porch. [7:12:01 pm]

-Before you get the pitchforks out, hear me out on this one. After he started running toward the south, why would TM go anywhere but home? Every step he took after leaving the clubhouse was in the direction of his back porch and door by the shortest route possible. It was only 274 feet from where he started running and at 9 mph average running times for a healthy male, it wasn’t going to take him long to get there.

-Another thing that I can’t completely get out of my mind is a statement that his mother made in the early part of this case, on Monday, February 27, 2012:

“He was on his way back home. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1qpX1S895

(7) I think <modsnip> George walked the entire length of the back sidewalk, all the way down to the &#8220;next street&#8221; at the back entrance, trying to find that <modsnip>. An average walking speed for an adult male of 3 mph, calculates his reaching the end at [7:13:57 pm]

-Robert Zimmerman said in an interview: &#8220;George went to the next street, realized where he was and was walking to his vehicle&#8221;.

-The shortest route to his vehicle was back up the side walk he came down.

(8) For now, the only thing I want to point out is that walking back to the spot where Trayvon&#8217;s body was found would put him there at [7:15:26 pm]

(9) If Trayvon left his back porch at the time George Zimmerman passed him on the sidewalk, he would arrive back at the point of his death at [7:15:32 pm]

(10) Trayvon Martin was shot and killed at the spot indicated on this map on 2/26/2012 at [7:16:44]

 

[highflyer]

MARTIN's attorney - every chance he gets.

I asked this earlier but received no reply so I brought this over for an answer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by songline
Me too, I would have stayed i my car with doors locked.
But we do NOT know that GZ used any deadly force.
We do know that something did happen and a boy is dead.
That is all we really know.

Just as you can imagine that maybe GZ used deadly force.
I can also imagine that maybe TM got smart and testy and caused this.
But do I know for sure? ... No I don’t know anything and neither do you.

Do you believe that if someone gets smart and testy with you that you have the right to shoot them?

 

[uvamerica]

Maybe GZ was a bit of a PITA..or just really anal
I would much rather have that then find out a child was raped, killed because
the people have a mind your own business mentality,
GZ had a full life, this was just being a good citizen, and something went out of control.
Until we find out more from an investigation all else to me is a lynching. MOO

I'm not getting why some are saying that this is a lynching ? George is a free man, Trayvon is dead.
From what I've read on the many threads about this case is that people
want justice, a thorough investigation (which many believe did not happen in the first place)
George took it upon his self to get out of his truck when he was told he did NOT need to do follow.
We go round n round debating on what facts we do know, yet the facts stay the same. JMO

 

[gxm]

Oh I'm sorry, I misread what you were saying.

I though you meant that he would be found guilty and unfairly so.

I apologize.

IMO, GZ is guilty of manslaughter. I do not believe he intended to kill TM or that he shot him due to racial hatred. But, I also do not think that Florida law supports my opinion. IMO, Florida law may very well be on GZ's side and given the evidence to date, he can plausibly claim self defense.

I realize that my opinion is unpopular as well as complicated. We all know GZ killed TM. What we don't know, for sure, is why. I would not be able to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt given the facts that are currently available.

ETA: I am horrified at the thought of armed neighborhood watchmen and hope that this case is a wake-up call to our nation. I agree with the commenter who said (I paraphrase) I'd rather have innumerable robberies if that would make the difference in saving a teenager's life.

 

[bessie]

People tell you thing with every move they make.
After reading up on TM - I walked away thinking NO squeaky clean. NO HOW!
After reading up on GZ - I walked away thinking Overzealous.

When people go on an interview they are to make good impressions.
That is right we do get impression right away.

None of it means that it had to go the way it did.
BUT GZ had a right to watch him, and size him up.

we did not ordain the way it is happening after the fact.
Maybe the legal system needs an over hall but that is not happening

First impressions and "sizing up" I understand. In fact, I posted about it the other morning after watching my cats react to a neighborhood stray who wandered in our yard. Sometimes our first impressions are spot on, and sometimes, not so much. So while it's natural behavior, it's also foolish in practically every situation to base one's actions solely on an initial intake, especially when the actions can bring serious consequences.

What I found interesting about your previous post was your opinion that GZ "sized him up correctly as someone to watch". To our knowledge, GZ observed TM merely walking through the complex. In the 911 call, he didn't specify any other behavior that could be deemed suspicious. He did say TM was running toward the back entrance, but that was after he placed the call. At the time he dialed 911, TM was only walking. In GZ's mind -- and perhaps yours, as well -- a young man walking warranted a call to 911. I don't mean to pick on you, but I raise the point because it is at the crux of the controversy.

People are speculating here and elsewhere about TM's character because of his school suspension. But that information didn't figure into GZ's evaluation. He knew absolutely nothing about TM, yet he followed him, called 911, possibly engaged him, and ultimately shot him dead. That's where the moral to the story lies, IMO. With no information beyond what his eye could see at a distance on a rainy night, GZ reacted in alarm. Why?

 

[TonyGatto]

RBBM - Is there a link for that, please? Because the last article I read said the family didn't get the phone back and got TM's call log, from the carrier online.

Thank you!

I could have sworn I heard Crump say in the news conference that they actually had possession of the phone -- but maybe I just heard this and made an assumption:


Crump said Martin's father retrieved the password to his son's phone so he could see who he spoke with before his death.

http://www.wesh.com/news/30722204/detail.html#ixzz1qphPmZbc

 

[iluvmua]

So now we have TM's mother saying TM was sitting on the back porch when he was killed.

Something about their story is very off.

ok, if TM was sitting on his back porch, that would mean he made it all the way home.

So GZ would have had to run after him and shoot him on his porch.

that makes absolutely no sense.

 

[LambChop]

couple people have asked me for Zimmerman's 911 call history. here is the link for those that do not have it:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf

Okay, here is a perfect example in the link above:

Let's take the gun out of the equation and, in fact, replace it with an automobile. Both require you to be tested, licensed and you are expected to use both in a responsible manner.

The very first call on this list of 911 calls has GZ chasing a car down the highway, not sure what the reason is but how many people did GZ endanger by pursuing this car. He gave a description to LE and still pursued. My guess is they told him you don't need to follow them Mr. Z.

Reported: can't catch up...but he does and then reports where this person is going....again, can't catch up...and, again he reports where this person is turning so he obviously caught up with this person. How responsible is it to chase a car down the highway. You are as much a danger to everyone else as is the person you are reporting. You could kill someone. I don't think GZ ever had enough timeouts in his life. jmo

 

[gxm]

I'm not getting why some are saying that this is a lynching ? George is a free man, Trayvon is dead.
From what I've read on the many threads about this case is that people
want justice, a thorough investigation (which many believe did not happen in the first place)
George took it upon his self to get out of his truck when he was told he did NOT need to do follow.
We go round n round debating on what facts we do know, yet the facts stay the same. JMO

But it is being investigated. Yes? The fact that protests are continuing leads one to believe that the protesters don't want an investigation, they want GZ hung out to dry.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[stmarysmead]

"lynching in the old South" had to do with only believing people that looked like you...and assuming evil of anyone with a different skin hue. It was about vigliantes screaming to not wait for justice.
IMO we need every bit of evidence about everyone who "bears witness" in this case....because the truth is the most important thing of all...not skin hue. We should all be saddened by this young man's death...but deeming it a racial murder before the full facts are known...tolerating bounties to kill GZ...DEMANDING outcomes when we do not know the evidence...and ignoring media bias...is not justice. That is the Bad Old South Part 2.

 

[TonyGatto]

This is what I think could be a reasonable assessment and convergence of statements, timelines, and the few facts that we have in this case. By no means do I view it as absolute, but considering the factors that are there to work with, it&#8217;s what makes the most sense to me,

What I started out with was a condensed version of the 911 call by Zimmerman where I removed non pertinent information not relating directly to time or placement. I took the running times shown and added the spans to the beginning time of the call to effect an actual timeline of occurrence for the events included.

On the portions that are theorized I have calculated distance and time using credible data which I have no problem explaining anything you&#8217;re curious about as to my methods. I think the calculations will prove to be valid whether the occurrence does or not.

I see the following 10 items as being critical time points in this chain of events. I am including my reasoning for their inclusion with each one.

(1) Trayvon Martin appears to have been at the clubhouse under an awning, due to the rain, when George Zimmerman called 911 at [7:09:34 pm]

(2) George Zimmerman appears to have parked part way down the street, talking to the 911 dispatcher and watching TM as he walked to the east towards the sidewalk [7:09:34 pm]

(3) As TM went further down the street, it seems likely to me that GZ moved his vehicle eastward to the point the sidewalk met the curb line to keep a better visual contact with TM [7:11:30 pm]

(4) Almost instantly, TM started running. [7:11:41 pm]



(5) GZ can be heard getting out of his vehicle to give chase [7:12:12 pm]



(6) TM, reaches his back porch. [7:12:01 pm]



(7) I think <modsnip> George walked the entire length of the back sidewalk, all the way down to the &#8220;next street&#8221; at the back entrance, trying to find that *advertiser censored****g c**n. An average walking speed for an adult male of 3 mph, calculates his reaching the end at [7:13:57 pm]



(8) For now, the only thing I want to point out is that walking back to the spot where Trayvon&#8217;s body was found would put him there at [7:15:26 pm]

(9) If Trayvon left his back porch at the time George Zimmerman passed him on the sidewalk, he would arrive back at the point of his death at [7:15:32 pm]

(10) Trayvon Martin was shot and killed at the spot indicated on this map on 2/26/2012 at [7:16:44]

This is interesting -- the theory that TM made it all the way home (which would answer questiond by those who say why didn't he run to the safest spot). Also it would account for what was going on during all that time.

 

[TonyGatto]

But it is being investigated. Yes? The fact that protests are continuing leads one to believe that the protesters don't want an investigation, they want GZ hung out to dry.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

If there weren't protests this would be swept under the rug like so many other cases and GZ would be back on patrol with his gun on his hip.

 

[katydid23]

This is what I think could be a reasonable assessment and convergence of statements, timelines, and the few facts that we have in this case. By no means do I view it as absolute, but considering the factors that are there to work with, it&#8217;s what makes the most sense to me,

What I started out with was a condensed version of the 911 call by Zimmerman where I removed non pertinent information not relating directly to time or placement. I took the running times shown and added the spans to the beginning time of the call to effect an actual timeline of occurrence for the events included.

On the portions that are theorized I have calculated distance and time using credible data which I have no problem explaining anything you&#8217;re curious about as to my methods. I think the calculations will prove to be valid whether the occurrence does or not.

I see the following 10 items as being critical time points in this chain of events. I am including my reasoning for their inclusion with each one.

(1) Trayvon Martin appears to have been at the clubhouse under an awning, due to the rain, when George Zimmerman called 911 at [7:09:34 pm]

(2) George Zimmerman appears to have parked part way down the street, talking to the 911 dispatcher and watching TM as he walked to the east towards the sidewalk [7:09:34 pm]

(3) As TM went further down the street, it seems likely to me that GZ moved his vehicle eastward to the point the sidewalk met the curb line to keep a better visual contact with TM [7:11:30 pm]

(4) Almost instantly, TM started running. [7:11:41 pm]

(5) GZ can be heard getting out of his vehicle to give chase [7:12:12 pm]

(6) TM, reaches his back porch. [7:12:01 pm]

(7) I think <modsnip> George walked the entire length of the back sidewalk, all the way down to the &#8220;next street&#8221; at the back entrance, trying to find that *advertiser censored****g c**n. An average walking speed for an adult male of 3 mph, calculates his reaching the end at [7:13:57 pm]

(8) For now, the only thing I want to point out is that walking back to the spot where Trayvon&#8217;s body was found would put him there at [7:15:26 pm]

(9) If Trayvon left his back porch at the time George Zimmerman passed him on the sidewalk, he would arrive back at the point of his death at [7:15:32 pm]

(10) Trayvon Martin was shot and killed at the spot indicated on this map on 2/26/2012 at [7:16:44]

His back porch? Do you think TM was home safely and then went back out to talk to GZ?

 

[LambChop]

So now we have TM's mother saying TM was sitting on the back porch when he was killed.

Something about their story is very off.

ok, if TM was sitting on his back porch, that would mean he made it all the way home.

So GZ would have had to run after him and shoot him on his porch.

that makes absolutely no sense.

How would we know that? His mother is the one who talked to LE who had GZ's statement. Perhaps he was hiding on someone's porch to get away from GZ. We know TM's gf said TM told her....he found me, so it looks as if he was trying to hide until he could run home. jmo

 

[Cracka*Jaxx]

Well, if I was a NW person and I saw someone I thought was "suspicious" - I would continue to watch. Now if that person walked up into someone's yard or tried a vehicle's door handle or something that would lead me to believe he was going to commit a crime - then yea. But someone just walking? Nah, I would continue to watch and see what he was going to do.

If GZ had done that - we wouldn't be here today and Trayvon would be at home watching basketball.

JMHO

Maybe GZ WAS just watching and following. How do we know he wasn't?

 

[iluvmua]

So If TM made it all the way home was he found 70 yards or 100 yards?

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1qpX1S895

"He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

 

[iluvmua]

How would we know that? His mother is the one who talked to LE who had GZ's statement. Perhaps he was hiding on someone's porch to get away from GZ. We know TM's gf said TM told her....he found me, so it looks as if he was trying to hide until he could run home. jmo

On Monday afternoon, a FOX 35 News crew met with Tracy Martin who said the victim in the shooting is her 17-year-old son, Trayvon, who was visiting from Miami.

"He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," she said. "He doesn't know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...led-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1qpX1S895

 

[i.b.nora]

if Tracy Martin filed a missing person's report the next day, I would think the police would produce a picture of his son at the morgue to see if that was his son.

I do not believe for a minute that the police did not tell them that their son was at the morgue until three days later.

http://www.themadisontimes.com/news_details.php?news_id=1875

Something about the Martin family's story stinks.

they just showed some of the pictures of what it was like that night on my local news and they did have crime scene tape around the area, So I would think they (LE) was out there for quite some time.

If you were to actually read The Madison Times article to which you provided a link, you would understand exactly what Tracy Martin said about how he learned his son had been killed and you wouldn't need to call Trayvon's family liars.
There is nothing in the ABC article that quotes the family directly, so they obviously got that bit of information wrong and not directly from the family.
If anyone is counting, that would mean that so far, ABC made an error in reporting, CNN made an error in reporting, Fox made an error in reporting and NBC made an error in reporting.
Just my view of it.

 

[Nova]

But it is being investigated. Yes? The fact that protests are continuing leads one to believe that the protesters don't want an investigation, they want GZ hung out to dry.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

I don't agree that is a reasonable assumption. In fact, we are talking about a part of the country (my own home state, BTW) with a significant history of LE investigations that automatically favor whites over blacks.

And we have a case where there is no question who did the shooting and yet no arrest has been made in nearly six weeks.

Put those two facts together and you get people who are very cynical that the powers that be even WANT to achieve justice; and, hence, the protests. (This is not to say the public impression is correct, just that it arises out of historical context.)

And then you add the emotional impact of an unarmed teen being shot, so naturally tempers run high.

 

[stmarysmead]

So are you postulating that TM made it home and then instead of going inside, confronted GZ?