17 y/o Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #20

[Frydaddy]

I wouldn't put it that way. George didn't have to want to kill to be a racist - people are just judging him by his own words on the 911 tapes, and his previous 911 calls. But when he says things like "these ***holes always get away" then it does sound as if George was determined to stop Trayvon in his tracks one way or another. The 911 operator didn't take it seriously enough, in my opinion, and didn't know he had a gun on him.

And you can't have Murder One when no one saw the beginning of the altercation except Trayvon, and he's not talking. Everything happened so fast it's nearly impossible to prove premeditation. And since Florida law allows concealed weapons, that can't be used to prove anything either.

As one of my good friends once said, if there's a body on the ground and you don't know anything else, it's probably going to be manslaughter. And that's what the police wanted to charge George with that night, but were held back by the original state prosecutor, Wolfinger.

No question they don't have the evidence for Murder One, but I question whether they have the evidence for manslaughter. Seems most here desire that conclusion, basing it on their opinions of very little factual evidence. I feel people need to portray Zimmerman as racist and looking for a physical confrontation to make a case around that circumstance.

I think the conclusions here show as much racial prejudice as a lot of what Zimmerman might have said. Suspicious...a person in a hoodie walking in the rain at dusk, staring at houses in a complex frequently robbed...how else would you describe that? If Zimmerman wanted to be a vigilante, he could have done everything people assume he did without the 911 call. He may well be guilty as sin, but why are so few willing to wait for evidence to prove it before forming conclusions?

 

[Marshmallow]

Unless there is conclusive evidence I have missed, perhaps GZ doesn't feel he stole a life. I fail to see how anyone can conclude much thus far, unless they had a predisposition for a certain conclusion from the onset.

I don't mind that you disagree with my thoughts. I can respect your differences of opinion.

 

[Frydaddy]

The "I don't know" reply wasn't meant to be evidence of anything, IMO it was an irrelevant question. Racism doesn't mean that one must be unfailingly polite and never aggressive or hotheaded with members of one's own race. (In fact, I think that often racism and general aggressive tendencies go together.)


We know from his own words that GZ thought that TM was suspicious.
We know that GZ knew very little about TM that would make him suspicious, nothing beyond that TM was a young black male.
From that demographic, GZ jumped to the conclusion that TM was up to no good, on drugs, a criminal casing the place out and the police had to be called to chase him away.

Automatically expecting the worst of someone based on their race is the dictionary definition of racism to me but you are free to disagree if it means something else to you.

Raining, dusk, a community known for burglary by teens, a walker staring at houses in the midst of all of this...what word would you have preferred that would have indicated abnormality without conjuring an assumption of racism?

 

[Karmady]

Not to be argumentative, but I think you are both correct.

One must convince a reasonable person that lethal force was the ONLY possible decision. In order to convince someone else it could be assumed that the one utilizing this level of force believes this also.

The only thing a well written SWG law would do is eliminate any retreat requirement. For example, under SYG if someone came at you with a knife, you would not HAVE to turn your back and attempt to run prior to shooting. However, in coding this into law a natural contradiction occurs. If lethal force is only justified in cases where no other alternative reasonably exists, and retreat might well be a reasonable alternative, is lethal force still justified?

For example, if you are in a running motor vehicle and a maniac is hammering away at the window with a knife, is it reasonable to pull out a gun and shoot when you could simply step on the accelerator and move? This is where it is hoped that a jury steps in to say no, lethal force was NOT the only reaonable alternative, and you were under no immediate threat that could only be countered with lethal force. If the SYG law does not allow for this it is flawed.

In this case we have something else altogether, and it is questionable whether SYG applies to Zimmerman at all.

Trayvon, who was under no obligation to retreat, did so anyway. He was violating no laws, and attempted to leave. Zimmerman pursued. Even assuming (and there is no evidence to support this) that Trayvon eventually decided to assume the rights granted by the SYG law and defend himself, and got the upper hand, it is arguable that Zimmerman's decision to pursue cost Zimmerman the right to claim self defense.

For example, if you follow a cheerleader around while rubbing the crotch of your pants and saying "Rape kill rape kill...", she would have a reasonable cause to assume that she was in mortal danger. If she then turned and sprayed you in the face with pepper spray, incapacitating you, you would not then be legally entitled to pull out a gun a shoot her and call it self defense.

IN MY OPINION ONLY!

Imo, the better question is whether it's reasonable for a maniac to be hammering at my window with a knife. jmo

 

[Marshmallow]

<modsnip>



I applaud their sense of concern, they broadly addressed all violence and said they do not wish for any violence. by not addressing only one portion of potential violence they did not give the spotlight to any one group or one person but instead defused the entire issue.

 

[flourish]

Trayvon's dad was just on CNN with Suzanne Malveaux and simply stated it all. "If Mr. Zimmerman had just stayed in his car at the direction of the dispatcher, none of us would be here. We didn't want this, we didn't want the publicity, we want people to continue peacefully protest, we don't want violence". Classy parents, JMO

then I think they need to specifically address this issue.

Kinda seems like they are...hence the above statement...

 

[Frydaddy]

He brought a gun to a fist fight. He followed the other person. He shot an UNARMED teenage kid...yeah IMO, he stole a life. And to ME it speaks volumes that he still think he's done nothing wrong.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

So, if Zimmerman was retreating and Trayvon started a fist fight, is Zimmerman still all that you think he is?

 

[Isabelle]

GZ may not have been committing a crime walking in the rain, but I have to ask myself how logical his thinking was...

He had already told the dispatcher that TM looked suspicious, and that something was wrong with him - he was probably on drugs. IMHO, if TM really had been suspicious and on drugs, then logic would say that TM would probably be dangerous.

So if that's his belief - that something was wrong with TM - then why get out of the vehicle at all to confront him, knowing that LE was on it's way? Common sense would tell me, at least, not to get into a confrontation with someone who may be dangerous, when LE is coming.

JMHO

But GZ had to follow him because he asked dispatcher to have LE call him when they got there. Big mistake!

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Speculation and heresay is great, but what actual evidence can be presented (In a court of law) against Zimmerman that he committed a crime?

If you throw out his story, all you have left is the witness that saw TM on top of GZ. Everything else is heresay.

Two witnesses on the 911 used the words wrestling I believe and we have not seen any witness statements yet. Zimmerman's statement is evidence and all the 911 calls with screaming on them are evidence. Trayvon's body is evidence as is all his clothes. Zimmerman's clothes and gun are evidence.

 

[Chris_Texas]

have they asked for the bounty to be called off? I hadn't seen or heard that??

Yes.

Saying "We don't want violence" covers every call for violence. They are not obligated to specifically respond to every idiotic comment made by someone on their behalf.

 

[Angels_Not_Forgotten]

So, if Zimmerman was retreating and Trayvon started a fist fight, is Zimmerman still all that you think he is?

I don't believe it for one second so I couldn't answer that. Honestly the thought of him not starting this isn't something I can wrap my mind around. He gets out of his car. With a gun. My whole stance goes back to why would you feel that this person is threatening and still get out of the car? That's all I need to know for my opinion. Sorry, just being honest.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[highflyer]

Unless there is conclusive evidence I have missed, perhaps GZ doesn't feel he stole a life. I fail to see how anyone can conclude much thus far, unless they had a predisposition for a certain conclusion from the onset.

How can he not feel remorse for taking a life? Zimmerman shot and killed a kid. We don't have all the facts yet, but that is one fact that we do have. The kid was unarmed. Where is his grief for the Martin family? Where is his concern for the town of Sanford and the rest of the country?

 

[ynotdivein]

Bumping again...

Anyone wishing to discuss the demonstrations, political, religious or racial aspects of the Trayvon Martin case, please check out our new forum in the Private Area of Websleuths, called SOUND OFF.

Warning: Be sure to read the Required Reading thread.

Trayvon Martin Sound Off

 

[Chris_Texas]

Finally something we can agree on.
I worry about my 12 year old son (he's 1/2 Mexican), he and his friends have recently started quoting a line by a black comedian (I think Kevin Hart) "say it with your chest lil ---". When I reprimand him, he tells me that he and his black friends say it to each other all the time. Maybe, but what happens if he says it in front of someone that's not his friend or who doesn't know that it's a line from a black comedian ? I understand the passion when it comes to race issues but I don't understand the violence. Someone called me a blank so I beat him ? The radicals on both sides are definitely not proving their superiority with threats and violence.

Nicely said.

 

[Marshmallow]

So, if Zimmerman was retreating and Trayvon started a fist fight, is Zimmerman still all that you think he is?

just as you say there's no proof that Mr Martin caught Mr Zimmerman's eye based on race, there's also no proof that Mr Zimmerman was retreating.

 

[Frydaddy]

I don't believe it for one second so I couldn't answer that. Honestly the thought of him not starting this isn't something I can wrap my mind around. He gets out of his car. With a gun. My whole stance goes back to why would you feel that this person is threatening and still get out of the car? That's all I need to know for my opinion. Sorry, just being honest.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

No need to apologize. Differences of opinions are not a problem, assuming or giving the benefit of the doubt to one person but not the other using the same info is curious to me is all, especially on a site like this.

 

[Chris_Texas]

I would have been scared too, but
I would have also said to myself - maybe the guy is nuts and has a gun?
let me get out of here ASAP that means fast.

That in itself would make me ask one question -
Why didn’t TM move toward home in a rush. IMHO he would have been home. I wish I could ask TM why he did not move on it,
why he seemingly took his time? MO
I wish I could ask GZ why did he have to shoot to kill , why not a leg or a shoulder? WHY?

I wish I can ask the LAW how are you supposed to keep the people safe if you are so dam lazy and self serving?

I would like to ask some leaders why they deepen the racial divide?

I would also like to ask the FBI if investigating a case a month after it happend if there is a real chance of having a clear view of things?

If Trayvon needed to flee all the way home in order to be safe then the problem isn't with Trayvon.

The problem with your argument (and I say this respectfully) is it misses an important point. Zimmerman NEVER had any right to follow, approach, and demand answers from anyone in the complex. He wasn't management, he wasn't security, he wasn't the police. On the other hand, Trayvon had the right to be there and to be left alone so long as he wasn't breaking the law or the rules.

Assuming Trayvon did elude his stalker that night, what might we assume would happen the next day when Zimmerman saw him again. If GZ was angry that they always get away before, how much more aggressive would his response be the next day? And what then should Trayvon's response have been? Must he flee home again, does he NEED to call the police in order to rid himself of his crazy stalker?

 

[Donjeta]

Raining, dusk, a community known for burglary by teens, a walker staring at houses in the midst of all of this...what word would you have preferred that would have indicated abnormality without conjuring an assumption of racism?

I must be from a hardier crowd because where I live it is not abnormal at all to see walkers out at dusk even if it's raining. I don't see where the emergency was in this one. I don't see where there was anything abnormal going on. A teen was walking. So? No big deal to me. Not every teen has a vehicle or an aversion to water that would keep them inside in rainy weather.

There are burglaries anywhere but it doesn't mean that someone he sees on the street is a burglar until proven otherwise

 

[Frydaddy]

How can he not feel remorse for taking a life? Zimmerman shot and killed a kid. We don't have all the facts yet, but that is one fact that we do have. The kid was unarmed. Where is his grief for the Martin family? Where is his concern for the town of Sanford and the rest of the country?

How do you know he doesn't feel remorse, grief, or concern...is there a guide as to how someone should react in a situation such as this? I just prefer to wait until the facts are known, there will be plenty of time to assail Zimmerman if the facts lead us there.

 

[Frydaddy]

just as you say there's no proof that Mr Martin caught Mr Zimmerman's eye based on race, there's also no proof that Mr Zimmerman was retreating.

Hence the word "if" in my question. Was there proof he wasnt?