IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

[AbbeyR]

I don't really consider the stories of the 5N guys all that far afield since we're just hearing 2nd and 3rd hand accounts mixed with some bad reporting. The gist of their stories seems to match. Whether they made up their story or told the exact truth I wouldn't expect 2nd and 3rd hand accounts to be perfect accounts. Filter out some noise and you get the same basic account.If their stories didn't match closely, or if they told someone a wildly different version, somebody would be sitting in jail.

How do you account for the discrepancies in the statements that come from their own lawyers then? These are not 2nd or 3rd hand accounts. They are statements on behalf of the POI by lawyers who have been authorized to speak for them.

Conflicting stories alone are not enough to put someone in jail. You know that.

 

[akh]

How do you account for the discrepancies in the statements that come from their own lawyers then? These are not 2nd or 3rd hand accounts. They are statements on behalf of the POI by lawyers who have been authorized to speak for them.

Unless the lawyer is reading from a prepared statement, particularly a quote from a prepared statement, then it's every bit as much of a 2nd hand account as anything else we'll hear.

EDIT: What conflicting account from a lawyer are you talking about? If it's CR's lawyer's account of her helping CR up the alley then CR's story says he doesn't remember what happened allegedly due to the punch so that was the attorney just putting his spin on the story to put his client in a better light. Just the same as him implying the punch was the reason for the memory loss instead of saying his client was p--- drunk and passed out.

Conflicting stories alone are not enough to put someone in jail. You know that.

I believe, perhaps naively so, that if the 5N stories didn't line up for the most part, or that they've told a conflicting version of the story to someone that leaves no chance of misunderstanding, then the entire house of cards would fall apart.

That doesn't mean they can't be guilty or lying... It just means they've kept their story reasonably straight in my judgment.

 

[elmorejames]

To assume JW knew or was quickly informed of all the previous nights events that LS was involved in, you would have to assume that JW spoke with ZO or someone that heard the interaction that caused the fight, he would have had to seen the SW video of them stumbling away, he would have to had spoken to the wittness that seen LS being semi-piggy backed or pulled to 5 N.... and last but not least you would have to think that HT would had already spoken to JR about LS departures time and that time was relayed to JW while picking up key...
It seems very unlikely by 2:00 the next day he had learned of all the previous nights events
that you think it's likely he would know. It took LE 3 days and a search warrant to see the condition LS was in leaving SW.... AKH is right to think the reporting is early and suspiciuos.
The only way I give him a pass , is because I do believe CS would have had told them to report LS missing immiediatly... I believe that JW reached point of thinking , who's phone number would LS know and call if she needed help? I would think CS would be at the top of that list and CS instructed JW to contact LE imiediatley

So are you thinking that the 2nd phone call from JR's phone was to CS by LS? Very interesting since we have no clue who the call was made to.

I don't understand while LE has never subpoenaed phone records from the POI's involved.

Actually I do understand, they are as clueless today as they were the days after her missing, and they just want to sweep this under the rug and have it all go away. Ironically, I wonder what would have transpired if Carl Salzmann were still the prosecutor and not some Saul Goodman hack of a defense attorney. I wonder if CR stumbled passed a bench similar to one that read, "Better Call Saul"!

 

[Mophebius]

AKH says "I believe, perhaps naively so, that if the 5N stories didn't line up for the most part, or that they've told a conflicting version of the story to someone that leaves no chance of misunderstanding, then the entire house of cards would fall apart.

That doesn't mean they can't be guilty or lying... It just means they've kept their story reasonably straight in my judgment."[/QUOTE]

No offense, but it isnt exactly like these three particular POI's stories are air tight. They are so conveniently and simplisticly devised that I think Larry, Curly and Mo could manage not mixing them up!

One (the most important character in my book) CR has amnesia of the entire event, One (MB) was diligently studying and hammering out an all important paper at 3 am June 3rd, passes LS off to the 3rd player (last person to knowingly see LS) JR, says he makes her perform a field sobriety test of sorts, before letting a shoeless, disheveled, cell less, keyless, drunk, high, somewhat incoherent, 90 pound girl under 5 feet tall, take off bear foot around 4 am from his apartment, after he acknowledges that she appears to already have facial injuries and couldnt decipher an iphone from an ipod!

These boys stories are FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAr from squeaky clean here! Nor should any of them get an all clear here and escape heavy scrutiny. The fact that the POI's havent been arrested yet has alot more to do with a lack of body/forensics and dumb luck, than it has to do with their stories passing inspection.

My thoughts from square one were that this group of guys are in some way responsible for whatever happend to LS. We have the right POI's, just not the right other evidence yet and corrobrating info to soundly prosecute.

 

[elmorejames]

Two more things I wanna throw out there...

1) Every POI was out in the public eye of some sort that evening except for JW. We do know he spends much of Friday running around like a chicken with its head cutoff looking for LS and possibly even was give the heads up CS to contact police. But why did the two girls file the report??? JW scared? JW parents advise him not to do so? Would love to hear from CS who gave the go ahead to contact the authorities.


2) JR didn't have a car that evening but doesn't mean he didn't have access to one. If the rumors are true the first call to DR was to have him pick up LS and give her a ride and the call went unanswered, did JR or houseguest attempt to drive her home? Any video evidence supporting other vehicle coming and going? Or LE only can figure things out if "a car circled the block twice"

please chime in!

 

[Mophebius]

Elmore, to my understanding, The "White Truck" was said to initially drive around the block once, but that was then cleared by LE, saying that there was a time stamp discrepancy with surveilance video's, which led to the misunderstanding. The White truck owner was located by LE and his truck was thoroughly examined and his story checked out and he was cleared publicly of having anything to do with the case.

There were said to be several vehicles of interest to LE, but we never heard anything of them from LE. I find it interesting that the White truck and driver have been publicly cleared and he still is the only POI who has been publicly cleared, nobody else has been by LE.

While it is true that JR supposedly didnt have a car available to him that night, he certainly had friends that did and other POI's did. As well as the mystery out of town guest, that has been discussed on PT etc. Though i have seen videos early on in the case where JR was hopping into a car and driving himself, my understanding is his car was in the shop for repairs at that time.

 

[elmorejames]

Elmore, to my understanding, The "White Truck" was said to initially drive around the block once, but that was then cleared by LE, saying that there was a time stamp discrepancy with surveilance video's, which led to the misunderstanding. The White truck owner was located by LE and his truck was thoroughly examined and his story checked out and he was cleared publicly of having anything to do with the case.

There were said to be several vehicles of interest to LE, but we never heard anything of them from LE. I find it interesting that the White truck and driver have been publicly cleared and he still is the only POI who has been publicly cleared, nobody else has been by LE.

While it is true that JR supposedly didnt have a car available to him that night, he certainly had friends that did and other POI's did. As well as the mystery out of town guest, that has been discussed on PT etc. Though i have seen videos early on in the case where JR was hopping into a car and driving himself, my understanding is his car was in the shop for repairs at that time.

That's exactly what I'm saying... It took a mistake of two times around the block for LE to draw suspicion and for us to even hear about the white truck.. Why weren't any other vehicles of question released to the media. To my knowledge JR was pushing a nice Ranger Rover. I wonder what was wrong with his vehicle? Don't know the area but I can't imagine Bloomington having a Range Rover dealership in the area unless in Indianapolis. So unless he needed a minor oil change where was his car? Did the guy who did work on his car remember how or by whom he was was driven to retrieve his Range Rover?

One thing I've always wondered, would locals from Bloomington area or Martinsville ever go on to campus or use a student as a drug connect to score. Aside from ZO is it possible that any other non Indy local POI's befriend locals that were non students?

 

[Snapfade]

So are you thinking that the 2nd phone call from JR's phone was to CS by LS? Very interesting since we have no clue who the call was made to.

I don't understand while LE has never subpoenaed phone records from the POI's involved.

Actually I do understand, they are as clueless today as they were the days after her missing, and they just want to sweep this under the rug and have it all go away. Ironically, I wonder what would have transpired if Carl Salzmann were still the prosecutor and not some Saul Goodman hack of a defense attorney. I wonder if CR stumbled passed a bench similar to one that read, "Better Call Saul"!

No....I was thinking about how LS parents were informed about LS missing and thinking theor reaction would be to tell JW to file missing person report.
Im speculating that JW was thinking who would LS call, that she knows the number without needing to look it up on her contact list. Im speculating thats the.reason he called her parents pretty soon after they.discovered her missing.. Innocent or Not, Nobody would make that call unless it was absolutely necessary.

 

[Ros]

JW might have known that LS was in the habit of checking in with her parents frequently and called them to see if they had heard from her yet that day. A parent's natural reaction would have been to have their child reported as "missing" and then book a plane ticket.

 

[bx2]

I am definitely not real clear of the order of JW's actions the next day, but have wondered a few things:

-After picking up her phone from Kilroys, did he then have access to texts or emails that would sound alarm bells?

-Of course we can't necessarily take for granted that he was looking for her as opposed to wanting solo access to the apt, but to me, the act of getting ahold of HT to retrieve the apt key for immediate access signals panic mode is already setting in a bit.

-Who reported the shoeless detail to the police and when? Very few people would have known that she wasn't wearing shoes as late as 4am, and no video would have been seized this early, yet that detail was available to the public extremely early on and in the case report (though may have been added later).

 

[Ixchel13]

Two more things I wanna throw out there...

1) Every POI was out in the public eye of some sort that evening except for JW. We do know he spends much of Friday running around like a chicken with its head cutoff looking for LS and possibly even was give the heads up CS to contact police. But why did the two girls file the report??? JW scared? JW parents advise him not to do so? Would love to hear from CS who gave the go ahead to contact the authorities.


2) JR didn't have a car that evening but doesn't mean he didn't have access to one. If the rumors are true the first call to DR was to have him pick up LS and give her a ride and the call went unanswered, did JR or houseguest attempt to drive her home? Any video evidence supporting other vehicle coming and going? Or LE only can figure things out if "a car circled the block twice"

please chime in!

BBM To me JW is the 600 lb. gorilla in the room so to speak. He's the only one who supposedly didn't have any interaction w. Lauren that night out of the entire cast of characters. I'd like to know when they last spoke that evening. Was he at Kilroy's watching the game with friends or at home? I agree w. Akh that he should be a POI. However, he could have passed out, not
just 'went to bed', maybe he supplied the pills LS took/snorted.
Not to cut other boards down but thank goodness this board does not allow the awful trolling that went on over at PT about Lauren. But, those
meanies were defending the POIs, a few people knew the players, incl. JW, JWs sister, and ZO's sister got on there.
When I say stranger abduction (25%) it doesn't have to mean a total stranger to that area.

 

[Ros]

BBM To me JW is the 600 lb. gorilla in the room so to speak. He's the only one who supposedly didn't have any interaction w. Lauren that night out of the entire cast of characters. I'd like to know when they last spoke that evening. Was he at Kilroy's watching the game with friends or at home? I agree w. Akh that he should be a POI. However, he could have passed out, not
just 'went to bed', maybe he supplied the pills LS took/snorted.
Not to cut other boards down but thank goodness this board does not allow the awful trolling that went on over at PT about Lauren. But, those
meanies were defending the POIs, a few people knew the players, incl. JW, JWs sister, and ZO's sister got on there.
When I say stranger abduction (25%) it doesn't have to mean a total stranger to that area.

I think the person who was allegedly ZO's sister was on the TG site, not PT. There was some question as to whether or not that person was really his sister.

According to the person who claimed on PT to be JW's roommate (PT thread from 2011-06-24 17:52:52), they were together all evening, watching the Mavs game and other TV shows, but I don't think he ever said where they were. It has been assumed that they were at home.

 

[Ros]

I am definitely not real clear of the order of JW's actions the next day, but have wondered a few things:

-After picking up her phone from Kilroys, did he then have access to texts or emails that would sound alarm bells?

-Of course we can't necessarily take for granted that he was looking for her as opposed to wanting solo access to the apt, but to me, the act of getting ahold of HT to retrieve the apt key for immediate access signals panic mode is already setting in a bit.

-Who reported the shoeless detail to the police and when? Very few people would have known that she wasn't wearing shoes as late as 4am, and no video would have been seized this early, yet that detail was available to the public extremely early on and in the case report (though may have been added later).

JR may have told police that she was barefoot.
" A male friend was the last to see her, police said. He told police that she was walking barefoot near the corner of 11th Street and College Avenue."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/07/missing-college-student-lauren-spierer_n_872714.html

" before retaining counsel, Rosenbaum gave two statements to the police, rode with them in the area where Spierer was last seen, and shared his phone."
http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/Story.aspx?ID=1712477

 

[VeryVeritas]

we all have to remember that we don't know what jw and ls' relationship was like on a daily basis. maybe it was extremely unusual for her to not make contact first thing in the morning. maybe they had plans or a routine that made him suspicious and worried so soon.

for me, if i don't hear from my wife by lunch time on a normal day i definitely notice the absence of contact. it's not that we specifically have plans to talk every day, it's just that i usually get a call or email and not hearing from her is fairly unusual. that's our routine which varies greatly from others i know who don't talk at all during the day and probably wouldn't notice their significant other missing for a week.

just my 2 cents that we don't know enough about their relationship to decide that it's weird that he'd be worried so soon.

I fully agree. Their relationship would have had a rhythm. When that rhythm is broken, you know something is up, bf, gf, sibling, child, etc... In this case I would think that LS was in touch with her gf's, JW several times per day and family perhaps daily. A span passing 12 hrs would be raising red flags with everyone in her circle. LE could easily see from phone records how frequently she talked / texted various people. It can all be graphed and mapped out. It would look like a heartbeat. Suddenly there was nothing...
and that nothing started at Kilroys perhaps as early as 1:00am.
I would find it odd if JW retrieved the phone first, before knowing if she were at SW in her apt. It's not clear if she had any history of staying at other people's places. If this was extremely unusual for her to not be home, then there might have only been 1 or 2 places where she would normally be in such a rare situation... and if one of those places was JW's and another was for example was the 3 ladies at 10th and College... then just about as soon as JW would talk with them, he would be freaking out. Suddenly it would appear so out of character and so strange to be without her phone that it would be apparent that something was very wrong.
It would be very interesting to see LS's phone records, and texts for the weeks before and leading right up to the very last one.
LE would know if JW had deleted anything.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I agree that JW should not be crossed off the list. I find some of his actions questionable since Lauren's disappearance, especially his refusal to take a polygraph. (but I know you don't care about that one! )

That said, there's not much to speculate about. If the most suspicious thing he has done is report Lauren missing TOO EARLY, when she really was legitimately missing, then well...

On the other hand, the POI at 5 N were the last to see Lauren, by their own accounts, and have told conflicting statements. Their stories do not make sense independently, or together. There's no way to reconcile what they themselves have told the media (via their lawyers) with any plausible scenario where they had nothing to hide. That's why the questions keep coming back to them.

My opinion only!

Well if we had solid evidence we wouldn't be expressing opinions.
What we have is a year and a half of analyzing every shred of information about this case and to paraphrase - it keeps coming back the liars at 5N.
Several share this opinion. Intuition is also telling me after looking these puzzle pieces day after day and from every possible angle, that Lauren was slipped something or ingested something that was far outside of normal for her. Whatever it was, for all practical purposes, I'm going to just call it a roofie. I am convinced that she was drugged. Now, sure, she might have smoked some weed and snorted something at JR's. But... after researching how long it takes for various suspected substances to work. I'm becoming convinced that what hit her hardest was given to her at Kilroys.
As it stands Bloomington does have a higher than average amount of Rohypnol or similarly classed substances showing up. There some stats that are interesting regarding Rohypnol and drugs found in use by similar users. 1) is that Rohypnol itself tends to come from Columbia via Mexico, so it follows Cocaine and/or Heroin distribution routes. 2) It tends to used much more so by men of about college age 3) being a "club" or "rave" type of drug it's also associated with users of ecstasy, Xanax, and hallucinogens

So, I'm curious if this intersects with our POI profiles? For example, is CR a known raver?

Very early on there were discussions about Xanax(as LS supposedly was boasting about it at Kilroys). And then quite a bit this past fall about klonopin, with that being attributed to DR. But these things remain unsubstantiated, right? So while certain drugs could produce the effects which LS was subjected to, it seems to me that nothing fits better than Rohypnol being slipped to her at Kilroys. It takes off within 15 minutes. With other substances in her system (including alcohol) the effects would have been intensified. It fits the behavior as good as anything can. Within 15 minutes her phone and shoes would not matter.
Again it really doesn't matter to me what it was. The scenario increasingly seems to me that there was something more than the usual "partying" at work here. And this became evident at Kilroys and went downhill from there. Since it originated at a public place that she had been at for something like 1 hr. I'm convinced that whatever it was that put her over the edge was given to her there. Rohypnol is detectable for 72 hrs in urine, and not sure how long in the blood etc... So, definitely a drug with a signature like that would be cause for a cover up.
Since the beginning there have been people who just couldn't buy the idea of hiding a body because of cocaine or more common substances. I tend to agree with that, barring evidence of sexual assault or physical trauma.
So, not only do I think she passed away at CR/MB's at around 3:30, I do think she was given something involuntarily, or lied to about what she was given. Rohypnol is several times more potent than Xanax.
It is tricky putting the pieces together between CR/MB and JR.
It is possible that JR felt he had to cover for CR/MB because MB called him at 3:30 and involved him. Further, he may have felt some culpability because he may have known she took something at his place earlier around 12:00 - 12:30.
In light of all of this, and then CR's known behavior, it certainly looks like CR was attempting to take advantage of the situation, whether or not he caused it. (but I'm thinking he caused it).

 

[akh]

Here is what I don't understand. And before I say it, let me say I consider the 5N guys to be strong PsOI.

What I don't understand is why when JW is mentioned so many seem to want to fill in the blanks with positive speculation.

It's "Well sure, that might be odd, but he probably saw something we have no way of knowing that even exists in the first place but would easily explain part of it, and then of course he probably was told this or that by someone who we have no idea if he even talked to, let alone when or what they would've said. Then, even though we have no idea if he really has an alibi or not, he probably does. And besides that, we have no idea what their long term and recent relationship was really like, but I don't know why we shouldn't figure it was good even if some rumors have said it wasn't. And, sure he's not taken a lie detector test but he's not a liar like the 5N scum. And sure he lawyered up and has not really cooperated even though originally we thought he did but I'm sure he has his reasons for that. So, really when you consider all that, there's nothing odd about his actions at all".

Meanwhile, when the 5N guys are mentioned it's "Their stories are so bogus. We know MB is lying because he said he was studying at 3AM and of course that's a lie because it just is. CR is lying too. Of course he remembers everything that happened. I know he does because you can tell. And JR. What a liar. Every word out of his mouth is a lie even though we have no way of knowing if one thing he's said is a lie. He's not even cooperating with the parents and PI's even though he did meet with them. He was all lawyered up so it doesn't count. That's guilt right there. So what if gave a statement early on, it was lies because he didn't admit to any wrong doing. He even admitted to seeing injuries and we know she hit her head so why should we consider him being honest and mentioning seeing injuries when he's a known liar? He even says she wanted to leave and he let her. Liar! Why would he let her leave if she wanted to leave? Plus, we know she was in no condition to walk or talk even though we've never seen the video tape because it just makes sense she was in terrible condition and the 5N guys are lying and should be in jail"

I know that might be an exaggeration but still, it seems there's a weird thing that happens as theories are discussed. No matter what is discussed with JW as a POI there's always several things mentioned that give him the benefit of the doubt without those things being tied to anything but guesses. It just seems people want to believe he can't be involved and will create narratives that explain his actions... even if those narratives are just guesses.

But then when it comes to 5N, there's rarely if ever any benefit of the doubt what-so-ever. It's 180deg. No matter what is attributed to them there seems to be a race to spin it negatively.

And every once and a while the random abduction theory pops up. Usually bolstered by the point that nothing else seems to be happening to connect any of the PsOI to a crime (even though the main scenarios are something happening at 5N and so LE has a specific place to look for forensics). But that is usually dampened with someone tossing out statistics, then mentioning the odd happenings of the night as reported and what a coincidence it would be, and then immediately pointing fingers back at 5N even though nothing has changed in all of this time. ...where the narrative quickly goes back to no benefit of the doubt extended at all to the guys at 5N. If we're talking statistics, then aren't significant others traditionally the most likely suspects?

I'm pretty sure there is a poster or two who'd vote guilty and throw away the key if they were the judge and jury for the 5N guys.

So, why is this? Why do so many give JW the benefit of the doubt at every turn and 5N none? Why no speculation to mitigate guilty scenarios for 5N? Why so many to explain JW's actions positively? Why do random abduction theories not get hardly any traction... especially after all this time?

Is it simply because the 5N guys are in the position of seeing her last? Is it because the 5N guys did cooperate enough initially that some quotes and statements made it into the press and gave people a place to focus? I'm not sure JW has said anything at all. So the 5N narrative can be picked apart, but not so much for JW. Would there be this type of speculation if there'd been a media blackout on comments from 5N or is having these snippets of info the key to giving us something to focus and dwell on? Is it because the parents focused so hard on the 5N bunch and seemed to believe in JW. Also they stated they thought this had nothing to do with random abduction. Did that change the forum/public narrative? And why now that the PI's, and even the finally the Spier's, have put JW in a less than favorable light has forum opinion not negatively followed?

And really any theories beyond these don't last hardly a post or two.

I really am curious what has caused this separation and 180deg reactions.

 

[Ros]

Here is what I don't understand. And before I say it, let me say I consider the 5N guys to be strong PsOI.

What I don't understand is why when JW is mentioned so many seem to want to fill in the blanks with positive speculation.

....

I really am curious what has caused this separation and 180deg reactions.

IMHO, it is because early characterizations of the PsOI (mainly on PT by people who claimed to have inside knowledge) were positive for JW and negative for JR. My opinions of the PsOI have changed over the months. I initially felt negative towards JW and JR and positive towards MB but have since reversed those opinions.

Also, I think JW did say something self-centered to a reporter (TG perhaps?) who went to his home in hopes of getting an interview. I can't find a link anymore, though. TG's reports are mostly gone from the internet now too. JW initially was putting information on his FB page. When a PIX 11 reporter and photographer tried to interview him at his home, no one answered the door but a Porsche with a male driver rapidly left the garage and nearly struck either the reporter or the photographer.

 

[VeryVeritas]

That's exactly what I'm saying... It took a mistake of two times around the block for LE to draw suspicion and for us to even hear about the white truck.. Why weren't any other vehicles of question released to the media. To my knowledge JR was pushing a nice Ranger Rover. I wonder what was wrong with his vehicle? Don't know the area but I can't imagine Bloomington having a Range Rover dealership in the area unless in Indianapolis. So unless he needed a minor oil change where was his car? Did the guy who did work on his car remember how or by whom he was was driven to retrieve his Range Rover?

One thing I've always wondered, would locals from Bloomington area or Martinsville ever go on to campus or use a student as a drug connect to score. Aside from ZO is it possible that any other non Indy local POI's befriend locals that were non students?

Just as LE has the white truck, they must have footage of every other vehicle that was in the area in those early morning hours. Hopefully they started at 2:30am or earlier and kept going. I would look much deeper. The weeks prior on the same day of the week and every car coming and going the entire week before and week after her disappearance. This should yield a list of patterns of vehicles and times that could be analyzed.

To me the most crucial times are those between 3:00am and 4:30am
i would guess something like 30 vehicles were captured on video in that time frame including the white truck. I would then trace the owners of those vehicles for links to people and events that night. And I would then trace the POI's access to vehicles, their guests and friends, against this list too. If LS died at 5N around 3:30, then they got her out of there fast. So there is a strong possibility of such a link.

At the same time... CR was carrying LS a few times that night. LS was very light, and there was apparently no hard evidence she was in the 5N apts deceased for any length of time. And since CR was up early wandering around with MB getting meds before the amnesia kicked in asking people about LS, it's possible that CR had been up the entire night and removed LS on foot. With his history of being able to sneak into buildings where he had been banned or had no legitimate access, he certainly could have been sneaky enough to stash her someplace nearby. We exhausted a lot of possibilities of where that could be a while ago... but this fits with WSr's who have suggested that POI stories anticipated that LS would be found.
If CR hid her someplace nearby, in construction area that was later filled in, in a part of a building under construction that was covered over, in a sewer, in a dumpster, or some cranny of a back room in one of the buildings in the area for example... the idea may have been to make it look like someone else grabbed her. No reports of CR/MB or anyone being seen on video AFTER 3:00am... but at some point they must be. CR/MB were up that morning in the drug store. JW was up and trying to find LS.
So just who starts showing up on Video and when? If CR found a place to hide LS around 3:30, he may have been lucky enough to miss cameras. Now, CR's vehicle was searched by LE... and I'm seeing why. But, was CR's vehicle on that list of vehicles recorded on Video like the white truck? I'll guess not. So, if it was CR and if he used a vehicle, he didn't use his vehicle. BUT... if his vehicle DOES show up on the street videos in those early morning time spans, then that would be a RED FLAG. I think he was just as likely to use a vehicle as to stash her someplace very close on foot. I also wonder about the LE search of CR's vehicle. For example, if LS were alive and he put her in his car enroute to 5N after she fell exiting the alley, but then died after he was driving her somewhere and so he pulls her out. Or... she dies in CR/MB's at around 3:30 and he carries her down, puts her in his car, and pulls her out a few minutes later... What type of evidence would be guaranteed to be there? If there were no blood or bodily fluids consistent with immediate death, it seems to me something as simple as a blanket could have been enough capture that from a small girl. The amount of time spent in a vehicle would seem to matter. We are talking about minutes here. And finding something like LS's hair or DNA wouldn't seem to prove anything. There would need to be something that could prove a dead body or some sign of foul play (like blood). If she had a blanket around her and was only in the vehicle for say 5 to 10 minutes, then I'm not sure what sort of evidence would be there. Just because LE didn't find anything, doesn't mean she wasn't in there. It just means they can't prove it.
So, I really would want to know what vehicles were captured on video.

If these scenarios were true, then LS could be much closer to 5N than many think. I'm reminded of how close people often turn up from where they disappeared after massive searches have taken place. She may be still very nearby. Remember the Purdue student who turned up electrocuted in a back room after many searches, Caylee Anthony turning up a short walk from the Anthony's home after LE combed the same area several times. The dumpster theory can't be disproven either, until LS turns up somewhere else.
Statistics show that people are usually found relatively close to where they were last seen. In this case, I think one or more of our key POI's is directly linked. There has to be forensic evidence that can narrow this down.

 

[AbbeyR]

Somehow we came to think that JR didn't have a car that night because it was getting fixed, or something like that. Can someone tell me where this came from? Did it come from "Ray" who also swore JR had taken an LE polygraph, which was false? Or some other anonymous comment?

I want to find source of that rumor.

 

[AbbeyR]

...I really am curious what has caused this separation and 180deg reactions.

Dude, if you have a theory about JW or something for us to consider, post away. I'm not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt, but I'm starting with where the story falls apart. It falls apart as soon as CR gets home (or whatever apartment he ends up at at 5N).