CA/Canada - Elisa Lam - 21 years old - Los Angeles/Vancouver - 31-Jan-2013 - #5

[MesaVerde]

My guess is that, because she was last caught on video on the 14th floor, the police investigated that floor.

Do you mean the released video? I don't know if that is the last sighting of her or the last video they have. Could be but I don't know.

Maybe they only went to the places that were close to somewhere that the dogs game them an alert.

They might have not gone in every room because they couldn't without asking. I think they can't go in your residence without a search warrant. So any of those guys who live there full time could say no. But still, they can ask. If anybody said no, you'd know that was suspicious.

Really, they should have checked every single room in the place, even the empty ones, don't you think? But maybe they relied on the dogs to be efficient. I guess a good scent dog should be able to track what areas she went into or didn't, right?

 

[MesaVerde]

My understanding from the timeline is that she was last seen on Jan 31 and reported missing by her family on Feb 1.

Her sister's twitter says that she was last seen the morning of Feb 1. But I don't know if by morning she means after sunrise or if she means anytime after midnight on the 31st. I never read an official time for her last sighting. I think they haven't disclosed that.

 

[kunibob]

Furthermore, if this was accidental or suicidal how would EL put the lid back on the tank? Maintenance could have done it after but that is a stretch given that it took complaints of water pressure over 2 weeks later to check the tanks. Whoever did this knew that the tanks were not a hot bed of activity and that staff were fairly blase. Why wouldn't hotel cleaning staff; for example, not notice and report that EL seemed to have disappeared.

Even if her bags were not yet packed and ready to go, surely they would have been aware of her checkout date and wondered why her stuff was still there a week later and bed not slept in? I don't have hotel experience, but it just seems like whoever did this planned it some what. Again, mere conjecture...

Does anyone know what the normal protocol is with cleaning staff and schedules? Would they likely ignore if it looked like someone had not been in their room for a week?

I was a housekeeper in 3 different hotels during my student & travelling years. It was very common for rooms to look like they hadn't been used at all. I usually just assumed they had spent the night out or elsewhere. It was common enough that it wasn't a cause for concern.

If someone overstayed their checkout time (also pretty common), we would notify the front desk, and that was their situation to deal with.

Hope that helps...

 

[MesaVerde]

Even if her bags were not yet packed and ready to go, surely they would have been aware of her checkout date and wondered why her stuff was still there a week later and bed not slept in?

I wondered how soon they figured out that something was really wrong. Her sister first makes a twitter message that she is missing on Feb 5 but they probably knew much sooner.

You would think the hotel would have known something was wrong by the night of the 1st or by the night of the 2nd at the latest.

 

[FiveFelines]

I wondered how soon they figured out that something was really wrong. Her sister first makes a twitter message that she is missing on Feb 5 but they probably knew much sooner.

You would think the hotel would have known something was wrong by the night of the 1st or by the night of the 2nd at the latest.

The LAPD made her case public on Feb 6, so I guess her parents reported her missing sometime between Feb 1 and Feb 5. I was sure I saw something that she was reported missing on the 1st, but now I can't find it.

 

[MesaVerde]

The elevator video is from Feb 1 (presumably very early morning):

I wonder if the reporters have all the times accurate in the stories. One story said she was supposed to check out on the 31st. So that would mean she already overstayed her check out by the time of the video. Maybe the reporter got that date wrong and she was checking out on the 1st?

I wonder if there is any unreleased footage later than that video. Do we know the time of the video? I didn't really try reading the little numbers on it because they didn't look easy to read.

 

[Conductor71]

I wondered how soon they figured out that something was really wrong. Her sister first makes a twitter message that she is missing on Feb 5 but they probably knew much sooner.

You would think the hotel would have known something was wrong by the night of the 1st or by the night of the 2nd at the latest.

It looks like Interpol dragged the LAPD into this. This is a press release from 2/7/13 announcing a robbery/homicide investigation. Her family is seen toward the end of the video looking so very worried; I feel so bad for them. I can't imagine losing a child. Anyway, this looks reliable.

Boy, that LT. certainly does not public speaking; it was almost painful to watch- poor guy!

http://video.ca.msn.com/watch/video...c2013-0602-1936-0023-233266422000%7c%7c%7c%7c

 

[FiveFelines]

I wonder if the reporters have all the times accurate in the stories. One story said she was supposed to check out on the 31st. So that would mean she already overstayed her check out by the time of the video. Maybe the reporter got that date wrong and she was checking out on the 1st?

I wonder if there is any unreleased footage later than that video. Do we know the time of the video? I didn't really try reading the little numbers on it because they didn't look easy to read.

I'm sure there's some misinformation out there. Most of the reports I have seen say she was scheduled to check out on Feb 1. I think the time/date stamp on the video was (intentionally?) blurred.

 

[MesaVerde]

Wow, thank you. Amazing video!!!!!!!

Proves what I've been saying that a guy can do that--at least with an A-frame ladder. I think a creative guy could find a way with a vertical ladder as well.

Of course, this doesn't prove anything. If EL did not go into the cistern on her own, the "perp" could be quite strong or on adrenaline, there could have been lifting/carrying aids involved, or there could be more than one "perp."

Yes, as you say the killer would have been pumped on adrenaline I think and would have been very motivated.

Plus the wood ladder on the tank would have been easier than the one this guy was going up and the tank next to that tank would have provided some assistance because he could have leaned on it or used it for leverage or balance or support.

Could have been more than one person. There have been cases like that. Not that uncommon really.

I personally have not tried doing this, but a few days ago, someone posted a video they made which I enjoyed watching, as the person (a 6' 200lbs guy) takes the trouble to re-enact carrying a 90 lbs dummy up a short metal ladder and then up a tall vertical ladder.

As you say, he did manage to do it with the A-frame ladder. And the guy in the video probably wasn't riding on a wave of adrenaline.

 

[samevo8]

Hey Mesa. Another possibility (I'm not trying to push any theories, just adding fuel to the fire ), is that if there were indeed a perp (or perps), then the person could be on drugs. In some messages in the past on one of these threads, people were talking about drug use at the Cecil (eg: walking through the halls, one would stumble across people using or on drugs.)

One such drug that could result in seemingly superhuman abilities is PCP (http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/pcp/effects.html). While PCP doesn't necessarily turn a person superhuman, the illusion of super strength can push a body beyond its normal range. From the website:

"One aspect of PCP that has been enshrined in urban legend is the supposed ability of a user to have superhuman strength and be impervious to pain. There is some amount of truth to these claims. In several instances PCP users have actually been able to break handcuffs that were not defective, a force requiring 1800 pounds per square inch if pulled straight or 450 psi if pulled at a 90 degree angle. Generally this resulted in fractured wrists or forearms."

This reminds me of a story from a former cop friend of mine who would point to a scar on his chin he got from a skateboarder (armed with skateboard) on PCP who would not go down, even with 4 or 5 cops on him, trying to subdue him.

Wow, thank you. Amazing video!!!!!!!

Proves what I've been saying that a guy can do that--at least with an A-frame ladder. I think a creative guy could find a way with a vertical ladder as well.



Yes, as you say the killer would have been pumped on adrenaline I think and would have been very motivated.

Plus the wood ladder on the tank would have been easier than the one this guy was going up and the tank next to that tank would have provided some assistance because he could have leaned on it or used it for leverage or balance or support.

Could have been more than one person. There have been cases like that. Not that uncommon really.



As you say, he did manage to do it with the A-frame ladder. And the guy in the video probably wasn't riding on a wave of adrenaline.

 

[mjak]

That is absolute rubbish...if they reviewed a hundred hours of video tape...which would have included a fair share of her...and they released that specific portion because they felt it showed what she looked like currently, as opposed to her facebook/ social media...then why not release some other parts of the 100's of hours they must have that DON'T show her being a complete weirdo in the lift.

They've released this specific lift video because it is the most provocative.

What he says there is not honest.

By what he's saying all that they required was a still of her...they could have captured a still from one split second of any of the 100 hours they reviewed...and yes oh yes she'll be all over plenty off footage they have...they released the bizarre elevator footage...why? Why that footage out of all the footage they must have of her?

Are they saying that of all the other footage of her in the hotel...that weird elevator footage is the only footage that shows her face?

Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining

I have a theory as to why LE choose to release that video. LAPD has a bad reputation. There have been many accusations regurading their competancy (and other complaints) over the years. My theory is that they wanted to plant the idea in people's mind that of psychosis causing Elisa to put herself in that tank so that if the corener is unable to determine a cause of death or even determines suicide that public will be less likley to be outraged. I think without that video the idea of someone putting themselves into that tank and dying sounds idiotic. The Video however does alow for that possibility. This is just my theory it could be all wrong. I mean they could have just released a frame from that video for identification purposes they released the whole video because I think they wanted that behavior seen.

mjak

 

[sugarpooper]

My theory is that they wanted to plant the idea in people's mind that of psychosis causing Elisa to put herself in that tank so that if the corener is unable to determine a cause of death or even determines suicide that public will be less likley to be outraged. I think without that video the idea of someone putting themselves into that tank and dying sounds idiotic. The Video however does alow for that possibility.

They released the video 5 days prior to her body found in the tank though.

>February 14, 2013:LAPD release a two-minute surveillance video of Lam who seems to be acting unusal in the hotel's elevator, pushing several floor buttons, stepping outside the elevator and then leaving. Concern is mounting regarding the student's disappearance.

>February 19, 2013: After complaints of low water pressure from guests at the Cecil Hotel, a worker checks the hotel's water tanks and discovers a body. It's later identified as the missing Elisa Lam.

Maybe they released that portion of footage because it was truly that last thing the cameras caught of EL.

 

[MesaVerde]

They released the video 5 days prior to her body found in the tank though.

Criminy, you are right.

 

[Conductor71]

Mesaverde and Samevo8 have made convincing arguments that an average size guy could have carried a petite LE up two ladders to the water tank. However, have we eliminated the confounding variable of what is known as "dead weight"? It refers to how the weight of a person seems so much more when unconscious or dead. In reality, we know a person does not weigh more, but it feels so to the person trying to lift them. When carrying a person who is non-responsive to being moved, it is much harder to balance and distribute their weight, so all the floppiness works against you. I am sure Newton has a law for this but no clue which one it is.

So...yes adrenaline and focus are great motivators, but is it enough? It seems to me if she were already deceased or unconscious, offering no weight resistance, she would have gotten banged up and bruised along the way when she was carried, yet the coroner reports no visible marks? I just don't think the perp would have been able to carry her up to the tank without leaving any bumps or bruises. This has me leaning toward her being alive at the time

 

[MesaVerde]

I'm just wondering if the perp related an elevator trick to her, and she decided to test it.

Oh, I see what you mean. I hadn't even thought of that.

I did think that maybe she might have heard that a woman alone in an elevator should push several floors so nobody knows where she is going. And then maybe she just pushed a column of buttons without thinking about it or something. Probably late at night. Maybe she was a little tired. She looks a little tired.

That is the most confounding part of the entire video for me--why did she push all those buttons?

 

[MesaVerde]

However, have we eliminated the confounding variable of what is known as "dead weight"? It refers to how the weight of a person seems so much more when unconscious or dead. In reality, we know a person does not weigh more, but it feels so to the person trying to lift them. When carrying a person who is non-responsive to being moved, it is much harder to balance and distribute their weight, so all the floppiness works against you. I am sure Newton has a law for this but no clue which one it is.

Well, I think you could be careful not to be flopping them around. If you position them well so they aren't shifting then it would just feel like 115 pounds. Also, if you put them in something like a duffle bag or something, you could restrain a lot of shifting.

It seems to me if she were already deceased or unconscious, offering no weight resistance, she would have gotten banged up and bruised along the way when she was carried, yet the coroner reports no visible marks? I just don't think the perp would have been able to carry her up to the tank without leaving any bumps or bruises. This has me leaning toward her being alive at the time

Way farther up the thread, some info was posted about dead bodies not bruising easily. A book on the subject of forensics went as far as to state that if you find a bruise on a dead body it is guaranteed to have happened while the person was living or you can assume that or something to that effect. So a dead body would be better to carry if you didn't want any bruising to occur.

Personally, I never thought she went in alive.

 

[hello people]

I have a theory as to why LE choose to release that video. LAPD has a bad reputation. There have been many accusations regurading their competancy (and other complaints) over the years. My theory is that they wanted to plant the idea in people's mind that of psychosis causing Elisa to put herself in that tank so that if the corener is unable to determine a cause of death or even determines suicide that public will be less likley to be outraged. I think without that video the idea of someone putting themselves into that tank and dying sounds idiotic. The Video however does alow for that possibility. This is just my theory it could be all wrong. I mean they could have just released a frame from that video for identification purposes they released the whole video because I think they wanted that behavior seen.

mjak

Could be something like that.

For that policeman to say that of the 100's of hours of video they collected that that is the best they have in terms of ID'ing her...well...that's just rubbish.

 

[samevo8]

Snipped.

That's the $64,000 question, Mesa!

However, one thing I'm inclined to assert is that the button presses were not random. Instead, they appear systematic, from top to bottom, along the middle row (ie: the buttons 14, 10, 7, 4, M, B, "Door Hold"). It appears she does the same sequence (and order) 4 times. The first time is just with the right hand. The next three times are in rapid succession with both hands (or thumbs.)

If it were random, other buttons would have been pressed. At very least, the order may have changed. It seems deliberate to me.

If it were indeed deliberate, some possibilities (which I'm sure many have already gone over) could be:

EL did it under her own volition
1. mania, OCD, delusion, sleepwalking.
2. sending a signal to security
3. trying to deceive someone
4. being playful (I kinda doubt this, as playful would probably switch up the order or add other buttons other than middle row.)
5. EL's normal MO for operating an elevator (I doubt this, given the other behavior on the video)
6. EL forgot her floor or could not see her floor's button (I doubt this as well, given the subsequent three rapid button presses, as she would have at least noticed the glowing lights coming from the buttons.)

EL did not do it under her own volition
1. forced to do so by a "perp" or "perps"

Of course, I'm leaving out some of the more fantastical supernatural possibilities that have been floating around (no pun intended) the Internet.

That is the most confounding part of the entire video for me--why did she push all those buttons?

 

[sugarpooper]

Obviously all the "connections" & odd things surrounding this case are mind boggling. But the thing I found really frightening is that the Chinese media figured out she was on the 14th floor in the video, & "The Night Stalker" was believed to be staying on that floor as well. Creepy to say the least.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaxzFKPWdf4"]Cecil Hotel's dark history - YouTube[/ame]

 

[samevo8]

Although a bit tangential, I do agree there are some bizarre coincidences. We humans are pretty good at pattern recognition, however. Sometimes we like to connect the dots in ways that seem fascinating to us.

But on that note, yes, I think she was on the 14th floor. I believe when the elevator eventually moves, the first floor that the elevator arrives at is the 10th floor (and I believe the 10th floor button light goes off.) I think if EL was on the 12th or 11th floor, the 14th floor light would have stayed lit when she pressed it.
Yup, and the story goes that Night Stalker was on the 14th floor, accused of killing 14 people, and paid $14/night.

Also, no 13th floor at Cecil. Thus, the 14th floor is the 13th floor.

And (I've mentioned this before), "4" is an unlucky number in Chinese, as it sounds like the word "death". "14" is similar.

Anyway, all interesting and if you think about it, can give you the willies. Probably nothing to do with the case, but... I'll keep an open mind.

Obviously all the "connections" & odd things surrounding this case are mind boggling. But the thing I found really frightening is that the Chinese media figured out she was on the 14th floor in the video, & "The Night Stalker" was believed to be staying on that floor as well. Creepy to say the least.