Amanda Knox tried for the murder of Meredith Kercher in Italy *NEW TRIAL* #2

[aa9511]

Yes, perhaps that part is understandable, but the fact that this ruling will not be the end, is most perplexing to me (as this will in fact be ruling #3). Yet on all forums, they say this will NOT be the final ruling.

Yes....strange. And did the jury just completely get cut out of this picture? Because now it's going to be decided by judges....am I understanding this right?

 

[whoanellie]

Here is the TJMK post, btw:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

SMK-
Just as a for instance, can you find and evidence of #61 in the Massei report. I can't. From what I've been able to find the Massei report says the Postal Police "arrived a little before 1:00 pm".

 

[SMK]

It all comes down the conclusions in the Massei report. Hellman's decisions have been annulled, so it doesn't really matter what he concluded.

Let's look at what we know about the timeline.

Sollecito phoned the Carabinieri at 12:51. That call lasted 169 seconds, so about three minutes. He immediately placed a second call to the Carabinieri at 12:54 for 57 seconds.

It is then 12:55 PM, but according to Sollecito/Knox, the Postal police had not yet arrived. By 1 PM, the Postal police, Filomina and friends were all at the cottage. That leaves four minutes for Knox and Sollecito, standing outside when the Postal police arrived, and each of them walking the Postal police through the cottage and explaining the situation, and the arrival of Filomina and friends, all suddenly at he same moment at about 12:57 or 12:58.

Is that what Filomina and friends reported? Did they arrive pretty much at the same time as the Postal police?

well in this case, maybe there is still something that is salvaged here (in contrast to my last post about this, responding to whoanellie) In any case, I have the type of mind which sees Sollecito not calling for help until after PP arrived, Amanda buying cleaning supplies, THESE types of facts as THE key of keys: If I were a juror, these would be more decisive than DNA, or prior character reports, etc.

 

[aa9511]

I never said RG broke into the apartment for that purpose. Didn't he blame his sudden need to go on something he ate?

The prosecutor's theory is preposterous. It reads like WAR AND PEACE.

Let's keep Occam's Razor in mind.

Nova, but RG's "version" of events is even more preposterous!! Do you really believe him if he said he needed to go because of something he ate? Of course, even I would logically make up that lie to support my taking a dump at an inopportune time, and I am not even good at coming up with things on-the-spot!!

I take nothing RG says to be the truth...nothing. He has twisted the whole story around. In fact, I don't even take Amanda's "false" confession as the truth. I don't take RS's version as the truth. I don't believe not-a-one of them.

 

[SMK]

SMK-
Just as a for instance, can you find and evidence of #61 in the Massei report. I can't. From what I've been able to find the Massei report says the Postal Police "arrived a little before 1:00 pm".

I have never been able to find this. Which troubled me, as I thought it was so important (i.e., the 2 are there to clean up, have NO intention of calling ANY police, but then they see the ball is in motion and then of course must call for good measure. This to me is very clearly indicative of some culpability. Hence, when it stops being a point for the prosecution, it would appear it is no longer empirical fact.)

 

[otto]

Yes....strange. And did the jury just completely get cut out of this picture? Because now it's going to be decided by judges....am I understanding this right?

In Italy, jurors are called Judges, but there is one Judge that oversees the other judges.

 

[otto]

I have never been able to find this. Which troubled me, as I thought it was so important (i.e., the 2 are there to clean up, have NO intention of calling ANY police, but then they see the ball is in motion and then of course must call for good measure. This to me is very clearly indicative of some culpability. Hence, when it stops being a point for the prosecution, it would appear it is no longer empirical fact.)

Check page 324 of the report - top of the page:

http://www.westseattleherald.com/si...ttachments/MasseiReportEnglishTranslation.pdf

It seems to me that there is no consistent conclusion in the Massei report regarding when everyone arrived at the cottage.

 

[SMK]

Let's look at what we know about the timeline.

12:47:23 Knox phones her mother for 88 seconds.At this time, nothing had happened and Knox has no memory of the phone call.

It is then 12:49.

Sollecito phoned the Carabinieri at 12:51. That call lasted 169 seconds, so about three minutes. He immediately placed a second call to the Carabinieri at 12:54 for 57 seconds.

It is then 12:55 PM, but according to Sollecito/Knox, the Postal police had not yet arrived. By 1 PM, the Postal police, Filomina and friends were all at the cottage. That leaves four minutes for Knox and Sollecito, standing outside when the Postal police arrived, and each of them walking the Postal police through the cottage and explaining the situation, and the arrival of Filomina and friends, all suddenly at he same moment at about 12:57 or 12:58.

Is that what Filomina and friends reported? Did they arrive pretty much at the same time as the Postal police?

The whole point is that the Postal Police were coming because the neighbor had found the cell phones belonging to MK in her garden, and thought they might be bomb devices.

The Postal Police were thus wholly unexpected. In the original theory supporting guilt, Knox and Sollecito had NO plans to phone police- they would wait for Filomena to do it.

Then, due to the Postal Police's awkward and untimely arrival, they had to phone police to impress the Postals as being honest and on the ball.

Obviously, if Sollecito really was calling first, unprompted by PP, this shows real consciousness of innocence. To me, as I said , this is the light and the key to all.

It all hinges on details such as this, and other bits such as if Amanda bought cleaning supplies first thing ......Then all snaps into place for guilt. Otherwise, it becomes very, very dubious. And then the other side begins to gain real ground.

 

[otto]

The whole point is that the Postal Police were coming because the neighbor had found the cell phones belonging to MK in her garden, and thought they might be bomb devices.

The Postal Police were thus wholly unexpected. In the original theory supporting guilt, Knox and Sollecito had NO plans to phone police- they would wait for Filomena to do it.

Then, due to the Postal Police's awkward and untimely arrival, they had to phone police to impress the Postals as being honest and on the ball.

Obviously, if Sollecito really was calling first, unprompted by PP, this shows real consciousness of innocence. To me, as I said , this is the light and the key to all.

It all hinges on details such as this, and other bits such as if Amanda bought cleaning supplies first thing ......Then all snaps into place for guilt. Otherwise, it becomes very, very dubious. And then the other side begins to gain real ground.

I've never really looked into it before. In the report, I found a statement that the postal police were there by 1 PM, but I just pointed out another statement in the report where it says that at 1:24, the postal police had just shown up. I don't know what to make of it.

Maybe this is not the best point on which to base a decision about guilt or innocence.

 

[whoanellie]

Check page 324 of the report - top of the page:

http://www.westseattleherald.com/si...ttachments/MasseiReportEnglishTranslation.pdf

It seems to me that there is no consistent conclusion in the Massei report regarding when everyone arrived at the cottage.

At the top of page 324 of the Massei report Amanda makes a phone call at
13:24:18 or 1:24 PM. It also says that "several minutes earlier, the Postal Police had shown up" which, if taken literally, would actually be later than "arrived a little before 1:00 pm" as stated on page 25 of the report. So there may be a slight discrepancy in the two mentions of the Postal Police arrival time but neither is consistent with them arriving before Sollecito called 112.

 

[SMK]

Check page 324 of the report - top of the page:

http://www.westseattleherald.com/si...ttachments/MasseiReportEnglishTranslation.pdf

It seems to me that there is no consistent conclusion in the Massei report regarding when everyone arrived at the cottage.

Thanks for this, and yes, I see the conclusion drawn about the plan/staging:

It is strange that Amanda did not say a word to Filomena about the phone call to
their flatmate, when the call, not having been answered, would normally have 325

caused anxiety and posed some questions as to why Meredith did not answer the
phone at such an advanced hour of the day.
In the opinion of the Court of Assizes, the call to Meredith’s phone was the first
indispensible step before putting the [348] planned staging into action. The lack of a
reply, since the poor girl was obviously already dead, gave a reason for reassurance
about the fact that the young woman’s phone had not somehow been retrieved,
[and] was therefore safe in the spot where it had been thrown, which, according to
the expectations [in the minds] of the murderers was a precipice or some other
inaccessible spot, rather than in the garden of a villa located barely outside the city,
where the vegetation concealed it from view.

 

[SMK]

I've never really looked into it before. In the report, I found a statement that the postal police were there by 1 PM, but I just pointed out another statement in the report where it says that at 1:24, the postal police had just shown up. I don't know what to make of it.

Maybe this is not the best point on which to base a decision about guilt or innocence.

Maybe you're right: Maybe I have always focused on these little bits which impressed me so wholly at the start in the direction of guilt, and when explained away, veered me toward innocence. Maybe I have been focusing on the wrong things.

 

[whoanellie]

I've never really looked into it before. In the report, I found a statement that the postal police were there by 1 PM, but I just pointed out another statement in the report where it says that at 1:24, the postal police had just shown up. I don't know what to make of it.

Maybe this is not the best point on which to base a decision about guilt or innocence.

I appreciate your having an open mind on this particular issue.

But it does tell me a great deal about the extent to which some people will go to paint anything and everything Knox and Sollecito did in a guilty light. Truth be damned.

 

[Amber29]

But it does tell me a great deal about the extent to which some people will go to paint anything and everything Knox and Sollecito did in a guilty light. Truth be damned.

I don't think that's it at all. I think when you take all the phone calls made in context and together is what paints it in a guilty light as you say. For instance the call to Edda that Amanda made before anything had happened or been discovered in the middle of the night Seattle time, that she conveniently has no memory of making. Luckily phone records don't lie. Then you have the suspicious calls made to Meredith's phones that she fails to tell Filomena about when Filomena asks about Meredith and is concerned. Anyways no one here is making anything up about these 2.

 

[otto]

Maybe you're right: Maybe I have always focused on these little bits which impressed me so wholly at the start in the direction of guilt, and when explained away, veered me toward innocence. Maybe I have been focusing on the wrong things.

It's a very complex case, one that is most likely not decided easily by anyone. It was more than a year before I started to form an opinion.

 

[otto]

I appreciate your having an open mind on this particular issue.

But it does tell me a great deal about the extent to which some people will go to paint anything and everything Knox and Sollecito did in a guilty light. Truth be damned.

It's not easy to sort out. I prefer to rely on the Massei report because it is a reasoned summary of the conclusions of the 9 months of testimony. Others might prefer to look at the statement Sollecito made on November 5 or 6:

""I was asking myself what could have happened and I went out to see if I could get in through Meredith's window. I tried to break down the door but I couldn't and so I decided to call my sister to get some advice because she is a police lieutenant.

"She told me to call [112] (the Italian emergency number) but in the meantime the postal police arrived."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1568640/Suspect-statements-in-Kercher-murder-case.html

When I read "meantime", for me that means "at the same time".

 

[otto]

I wonder if the 13:24 time is a misprint and that is when the Carabinieri arrived.

 

[aa9511]

Interesting. But even if you could prove that all killers write macabre poems, plays and stories, it wouldn't prove that everyone who writes such material is also a killer. Other posters and I have provided numerous examples to the contrary.

I think you're right (based on your reporting; I have no independent knowledge of the case): the writings were allowed in the Hayes case because they specifically articulated a plan to kill the eventual victim.

There is nothing equivalent in AK's writing.

(BTW and FWIW, the play that got me into grad school dealt with a girl whose boyfriend removed her arms and whose father tried to rape her. Her mother kept small change and precious items in her uterus, which had fallen out and dangled between her thighs. It was a farcical comedy.

My first play written for grad school dealt, in part, with a man who felt so dominated by his lust for women that he castrated himself with a broken beer bottle. (This was based on a real-life event.)

Yes, some people were terribly disturbed, but others appreciated the dark humor of the pieces.

Right now, I'm finishing a rather sweet musical about a lesbian wedding. But my confidence in my own writing has increased over the years and I no longer feel a need to resort to sensationalism. That's something that maturing as an artist affords one.

But some people openly questioned my character after those early plays. I am not only non-violent, however, but a lifelong pacifist. I wasn't writing anything I actually wanted to do.)

bbm

Omg, I can't even think about that....oh the pain!!!! Omg, did someone really do that?!

Nova, I get your point. Yes, perhaps it shouldn't be relevant. If for some reason you were caught up in, say, the first play you mentioned that you wrote, then I admit, you would be in trouble if someone merely looked at what you wrote and nothing else. However, you would probably have a good alibi, b/c you had nothing to do with the crime, and you did not remove anyone's arms or rape anyone. Your alibi would be checked out, furthermore....it would be revealed that you actually don't even know the person who was abused/tortured. And even if you do, and by chance you don't have anyone to verify your alibi, there would be nothing else to tie you to the case other than what you wrote. And that would be the end of that. Mind you, what you wrote about would have to match up pretty well with what actually happened.

Now, I find it hard to believe that all of the circumstances surrounding Amanda's involvement in Merediths' murder are merely coincidences.

 

[aa9511]

True, but in this case, we don't really know for sure what RG believed with regards to the occupants. He was tangentially connected to their group and may have (mis)understood that the girls would all be away for the night because of the holiday weekend.

But Amanda wasn't away. And Meredith wasn't away. So that means he was wrong about 2 of the occupants. Just doesn't seem likely.

 

[aa9511]

I won't speak for RS, but I doubt AK and RG were experts on game theory.

And the "everyone wins" scenario requires that everyone understand as much and also hold up under withering police interrogation.

We might expect that from soldiers trained for it or members of a tight gang or family, but three young people who had known one another for a week or two?

Highly unlikely.

But if you think about it in terms of "each of them looking out for their own interest," then you can reason that they did it even though they didn't even realize they were doing it. It's the matter of....each does what is best for them. Amanda was looking out for herself, RS looking out for himself, same with RG. They didn't have to conspire for it, it just happened naturally based on each person's individual choice.