Overkill - Overkill in a homicide refers to the use of excessive force or brutality beyond what is necessary to cause death.

[Meara]

I am sure it has been discussed before but for the benefit of newer members, it should be addressed.
Whoever killed JBR, was not satisfied to simply kill her. The killer went to extreme measures to make sure she was dead and likely suffered horribly in the process...overkill.

Using both a neck ligature and a blunt object like a flashlight or a golf club to cause fatal injuries demonstrates a level of violence that far exceeds what would typically be required to kill someone.

It suggests not just an intent to kill but an intent to inflict extreme harm or suffering. This excessive brutality can be indicative of intense rage, hatred, or a desire to ensure the victim's demise beyond any doubt.

Consider for a moment, is this something that either parent would seem to be capable of? What would be their motivation?
What of the intruder theory? Gary Oliva proclaimed love for JB and how she made him a better person.
Would he be capable of this?

Psychologically, overkill in a homicide can also signify deeper emotional issues or a lack of control on the part of the perpetrator. It may reflect a need for dominance or a way to exert power over the victim in a particularly vicious manner.

The only person in this scenario who would fit the bill is the jealous older brother who was very likely sexually abusing JB over an extended period of time and finally, the rage built up to the point he had to act.

My question would be, what prompted him to act at that particular time?

Did she receive more presents than him?
Was she shown more attention at the party that evening?
Did she recently win another pageant, causing him to get angrier at being marginalized even further?

JR and PR seeing what he had done, had to cover it up or lose their remaining child, and so began the clumsy attempts at trying to stage the house to look as if a miraculous intruder was able to carry this crime out.

Although I did a kind of forensic on BR that would account for his killing JBR and the timing of, I wasn't sure it accounted, in the end, for the overkill. From what we know of him at the time and have been able to observe since, I'd say he does display a broad array of symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome. While his traumas beginning around age 5 didn't cause it - the disorder is developmental - they surely can't have helped. But, were the organic and environmental factors together enough to cause what you describe as the intent to produce extreme harm or suffering, excessive brutality, intense rage, and viciousness? Would some degree of psychopathy also have to have been present for BR to inflict the injuries JBR suffered?

I know you've wondered about this, too, and it turns out we're not alone. This article in Psychology Today
Asperger's Disorder vs. Psychopathy suggests that people with AS tend not to be destructively or calculatedly violent. However, this article Psychiatric comorbidities in asperger syndrome and high functioning autism: diagnostic challenges - Annals of General Psychiatry and this one https://jaapl.org/content/49/4/462 from The Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law both confirm that there is such a thing as Autistic Psychopathy; i.e., that AS and psychopathy can be comorbid (but aren't necessarily). In simple terms, the difficulty lies in sorting out whether the lack of empathy in an offender is one symptom among many others (as in AS) or a defining characteristic (as in psychopathy). It's a puzzle and a hot topic. With respect to BR, research shows the two disorders are likelier to overlap if there has been parental neglect and/or childhood trauma.

So where does that leave us? In an uncomfortable spot, I think. We can say that having AS made him very vulnerable to the skewed family dynamics but his lack of empathy may have had darker origins, as well. And that's what many have heard in his statement, "I'm getting on with my life" (One is tempted to ask, 'And do you like fava beans?'). If he is psychopathic, it's likely there would have been further offenses. We don't know of any - but then he does appear to live a somewhat cocooned life; and better management of AS after JBR's death may have dialed down the violent tendencies. His med records prior to the murder weren't sealed, only afterwards. You have to wonder whether that's because they included a new/tentative diagnosis of Autistic Psychopathy.

 

[Meara]

Something I meant to include in my comment at #16 --

PR's friends were planning an intervention re the "mega Jonbenet thing." This apparently referred to her going overboard with the pageants. But what did the "thing" include? Did they think she was pushing JBR? Enmeshed with her? Obsessed with pageants and the dream of winning Miss America vicariously through JBR? Gone to a neurotic level of expense? Does anyone know?

And what exactly was the goal of the intervention? To get PR to stop entering JBR in pageants? Or to cut back on pageant activities? Or just to make PR aware of unhealthy excesses she didn't seem to be aware of?

And, of particular interest, what prompted the planned intervention and the timing of it? Was it behavior they observed in PR? Behavior they observed in JBR? Behavior they observed in BR? Behavior/feelings they observed in their own children? Something they overheard?

I'm theorizing that the timing of the plan to stage an intervention and the timing of JBR's murder are related; that the friends sensed something was building towards a crisis. But I haven't found any further information on the plan. If you know of any details, please do share them!

 

[Gunther Toody]

Thanks, GT. Yes, what to do... I'm finding it energizing to be able to adopt BR's point of view more than before and to consider a BDI theory in which his actions can be seen as attempts to solve a problem rather than solely as a spontaneous outburst of pent up anger.

Stop the pageants, get Mom back. Making JBR less pretty might work as well as making her go away. Hadn't thought of that. This might connect with the party on Dec. 23rd and JBR crying on the steps to the butler's pantry, saying, "I don't feel pretty anymore." Apparently, she was uninjured, yet someone called 911. Did BR attempt some pageant-thwarting act that night that didn't work? Was Dec. 25th Plan B? Just thinking out loud here....

Interesting that PR's close friends were planning an intervention to stop or curtail the "mega JonBenet thing" and BR beat them to it. Not quite 10 y.o., he recognized the same necessity. In that, at least, he was not wrong. Did he take initiative in part because none of the grown-ups had? Friends planned, BR took action, but it was JR's job to see the problem and address it. Why didn't he, I wonder.

More to your topic, BR would certainly have had to lure JBR or coerce her into going to the basement. She hated that place. Unfortunately, luring could be viewed as premeditation.

I believe otg solved the mystery of the head bash weapon; JBR was struck by the shaft of a golf club. Based on his research, it would have been possible for BR to strike JBR with considerable force and perhaps more than he intended. Was the head bash overkill simply a miscalculation?

Possible vs. Plausible vs. Probable - Everything about the case has to go through the Triple P Sorter!

A minor consideration...
otg prepared a very good scenario, but on one count I think there is a miscalculation.

From your post..."I believe otg solved the mystery of the head bash weapon; JBR was struck by the shaft of a golf club. Based on his research, it would have been possible for BR to strike JBR with considerable force and perhaps more than he intended. Was the head bash overkill simply a miscalculation?"

As a retired golfer, I can attest to the fact that golf club shafts are quite "whippy" and not a stiff tube, as would probably be required to create such an injury.
I would opt more for the head of the club doing the damage if in fact, that was the weapon used.

It is very easy to image the neck (hosel) of the club crashing down on her skull, if it were swung overhead.

 

[GRT]

I am sure it has been discussed before but for the benefit of newer members, it should be addressed.
Whoever killed JBR, was not satisfied to simply kill her. The killer went to extreme measures to make sure she was dead and likely suffered horribly in the process...overkill.

Using both a neck ligature and a blunt object like a flashlight or a golf club to cause fatal injuries demonstrates a level of violence that far exceeds what would typically be required to kill someone.

It suggests not just an intent to kill but an intent to inflict extreme harm or suffering. This excessive brutality can be indicative of intense rage, hatred, or a desire to ensure the victim's demise beyond any doubt.

Consider for a moment, is this something that either parent would seem to be capable of? What would be their motivation?
What of the intruder theory? Gary Oliva proclaimed love for JB and how she made him a better person.
Would he be capable of this?

Psychologically, overkill in a homicide can also signify deeper emotional issues or a lack of control on the part of the perpetrator. It may reflect a need for dominance or a way to exert power over the victim in a particularly vicious manner.

The only person in this scenario who would fit the bill is the jealous older brother who was very likely sexually abusing JB over an extended period of time and finally, the rage built up to the point he had to act.

My question would be, what prompted him to act at that particular time?

Did she receive more presents than him?
Was she shown more attention at the party that evening?
Did she recently win another pageant, causing him to get angrier at being marginalized even further?

JR and PR seeing what he had done, had to cover it up or lose their remaining child, and so began the clumsy attempts at trying to stage the house to look as if a miraculous intruder was able to carry this crime out.

The kind of force needed to create her head trauma and choke her out was likely (MOO) beyond what a 9-year old could exert. MOO

That said, in a statistical sense, I don't see it as being overkill. She was struck in the head, and then the killer strangled her to finish the job. We see all sorts of overkill these days--think Gannon Stauch--but JBR's murder was mild in comparison.

I've long thought it was an outsider who killed her--maybe the parent of one of her beauty-pageant competitors (those mothers can be vicious). Or, it might have been someone the family knew--perhaps a neighbor--who knew the lay of the house and who was also entertaining pedophile thoughts.

All JMOO...

 

[Meara]

A minor consideration...
otg prepared a very good scenario, but on one count I think there is a miscalculation.

From your post..."I believe otg solved the mystery of the head bash weapon; JBR was struck by the shaft of a golf club. Based on his research, it would have been possible for BR to strike JBR with considerable force and perhaps more than he intended. Was the head bash overkill simply a miscalculation?"

As a retired golfer, I can attest to the fact that golf club shafts are quite "whippy" and not a stiff tube, as would probably be required to create such an injury.
I would opt more for the head of the club doing the damage if in fact, that was the weapon used.

It is very easy to image the neck (hosel) of the club crashing down on her skull, if it were swung overhead.
View attachment 489411View attachment 489412

GT, that is one very fine illustration. The hosel as the striking surface makes complete sense. To non-golfers it would seem to be part of the shaft, but it's clearly the upper extension of the head.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Although I did a kind of forensic on BR that would account for his killing JBR and the timing of, I wasn't sure it accounted, in the end, for the overkill. From what we know of him at the time and have been able to observe since, I'd say he does display a broad array of symptoms of Asperger's Syndrome. While his traumas beginning around age 5 didn't cause it - the disorder is developmental - they surely can't have helped. But, were the organic and environmental factors together enough to cause what you describe as the intent to produce extreme harm or suffering, excessive brutality, intense rage, and viciousness? Would some degree of psychopathy also have to have been present for BR to inflict the injuries JBR suffered?

I know you've wondered about this, too, and it turns out we're not alone. This article in Psychology Today
Asperger's Disorder vs. Psychopathy suggests that people with AS tend not to be destructively or calculatedly violent. However, this article Psychiatric comorbidities in asperger syndrome and high functioning autism: diagnostic challenges - Annals of General Psychiatry and this one https://jaapl.org/content/49/4/462 from The Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law both confirm that there is such a thing as Autistic Psychopathy; i.e., that AS and psychopathy can be comorbid (but aren't necessarily). In simple terms, the difficulty lies in sorting out whether the lack of empathy in an offender is one symptom among many others (as in AS) or a defining characteristic (as in psychopathy). It's a puzzle and a hot topic. With respect to BR, research shows the two disorders are likelier to overlap if there has been parental neglect and/or childhood trauma.

So where does that leave us? In an uncomfortable spot, I think. We can say that having AS made him very vulnerable to the skewed family dynamics but his lack of empathy may have had darker origins, as well. And that's what many have heard in his statement, "I'm getting on with my life" (One is tempted to ask, 'And do you like fava beans?'). If he is psychopathic, it's likely there would have been further offenses. We don't know of any - but then he does appear to live a somewhat cocooned life; and better management of AS after JBR's death may have dialed down the violent tendencies. His med records prior to the murder weren't sealed, only afterwards. You have to wonder whether that's because they included a new/tentative diagnosis of Autistic Psychopathy.

When you spend any amount of time with kids with Aspergers there are a lot of symptoms that are usually very obvious. The little professor who will educate you on their topic of interest, adherence to routine and sameness, and yes big time rule followers. They do data dumps of information when speaking to you but there is no back and forth exchange. They can be very empathetic in the sense of social justice but be clueless to why they just hurt their friends feelings. Their emotional responses can be very logic driven but that doesn't necessarily mean without any feeling. I was telling one ASD young girl that I felt bad that I couldnt find the owners of a lost dog I ended up keeping and they must miss him. Her response was " well they didnt deserve him because they didnt take good care of him and he could have been run over". Typical logic based answer and absence of theory of mind but filled with concern for the dog. These gaps in communication cause a lot of misunderstanding for people on the spectrum. I do not take BRs comment about " getting on with his life" as anything horrible if he has a form of ASD. What he is not going to talk about is all the overwhelming feelings that are attached to the event that he doesn't want to talk about. ( also could be parroting something his parents said to him. The need to move forward after .
That being said, kids with ADHD can be
confused with having ASD and ADHD is a very common co- morbidly of ASD.
This is where I see the most problems occurring. Untreated severe ADHD can cause very impulsive acts. They are so impulsive that others feelings do not matter but can be remorseful after the fact. There can be risk taking behavior, anxiety, ODD. They can hyper fixate on areas of interest also.
Anxiety can cause very aggressive behavior in kids. Quite the opposite of what you would think. (Strike out before they get you)
Low frustration tolerence.
ADHD communication style can be one sided because they are in go mode. Now add these symptoms to ASD.
I would venture to say more people are incarcerated due to ADHD than ASD.
Sorry for the long post!
I just think some may think lack of empathy to be a key reason why they zero in on BR. What autistics say due to communication deficits is not necessarily what they feel. Asking a kid to explain how the Hoover vacuum is engineered will be easier for them than asking them about how they feel.

 

[GRT]

Sometimes, Occam's Razor is the likely option.

So much speculation has gone into this over the years, but even if BR killed JBR, there's no way he wrote that ransom note. The most likely scenario was, and still is, that someone who knew the family and wanted to get rid of JBR (likely another beauty pageant mother) snuck in intending to abscond with the girl, but JBR started making noises, which resulted in the need to smack her with the candlestick and then choke her out. The ransom note was likely already in place -- to distract from the true purpose of the crime -- and rather than carrying a dead body out, the perp just hid her in the basement.

All the focus on the family has been kind of silly in my opinion. Especially considering the ransom note, which was an obvious distraction. All MOO.

 

[Venom]

So is it really that simple to believe that a beauty pageant mother wanted to kidnap a six year old girl on Christmas and it all went downhill so it turned into a murder and sexual assault? In my opinion, that is a bit far fetched and silly. But everyone has an opinion.

 

[Choices]

I have a lot of difficultly believing another beauty pageant mother is responsible. Was there a bitter rivalry happening? With respect, it still seems absurd to my mind. I am also inclined to question how canny and strong a 9 year old is to be able to fashion a garrotte through breaking a paintbrush handle, winding a thick knot on it then having the grip to tighten the cord into the flesh and causing grave ligature injury marks. Was his DNA ever tested? Autopsy photos show JB had burn marks on her skin so the idea of a stun gun had been floated. One paedophile convicted a few years before over a 7 year old had a tie to the area, confessed to someone on the Boxing Day after and carried a stun gun but authorities had no interest in him. Seemed to take so long to drop her parents as suspects if the DNA would quickly rule them out like it apparently did for him. I don’t have a suspect theory myself and other than considering immediate family members, the hired help crossed my mind including their relatives like of the housekeeper whose DNA was possibly not obtained. The housekeeper refused a polygraph I read.

 

[GRT]

So is it really that simple to believe that a beauty pageant mother wanted to kidnap a six year old girl on Christmas and it all went downhill so it turned into a murder and sexual assault? In my opinion, that is a bit far fetched and silly. But everyone has an opinion.

Does no one remember Wanda Holloway? Mothers of competitive children can be vicious. Plus, beauty pageants border on being abusive themselves.

I think they determined there was no rape the night of her murder but that there might have been older sexual assault, which could point to virtually anyone. Dad, brother, mom, dance coach, uncle, neighbor, babysitter, etc. Again, lots of conjecture.

But, the idea that a nine-year-old was able to strike his little sister over the head and then garrot her (or, even know how a garrot could be used) is what's silly to me. Then, add in the ransom note that he couldn't possibly have written and I'm not sure why anyone is going down that road.

LE dropped the ball on that one. They should have been looking outside the family from the start because there was never any objective evidence any family members were involved. Being wealthy and of questionable integrity (putting a child in pageants) doesn't automatically translate into being a killer.

But, beyond that, it wasn't "overkill." It was murder, but as far as murders go, it was relatively mild.

 

[Gunther Toody]

Does no one remember Wanda Holloway? Mothers of competitive children can be vicious. Plus, beauty pageants border on being abusive themselves.

I think they determined there was no rape the night of her murder but that there might have been older sexual assault, which could point to virtually anyone. Dad, brother, mom, dance coach, uncle, neighbor, babysitter, etc. Again, lots of conjecture.

But, the idea that a nine-year-old was able to strike his little sister over the head and then garrot her (or, even know how a garrot could be used) is what's silly to me. Then, add in the ransom note that he couldn't possibly have written and I'm not sure why anyone is going down that road.

LE dropped the ball on that one. They should have been looking outside the family from the start because there was never any objective evidence any family members were involved. Being wealthy and of questionable integrity (putting a child in pageants) doesn't automatically translate into being a killer.

But, beyond that, it wasn't "overkill." It was murder, but as far as murders go, it was relatively mild.

It seems you are basing this entire argument on a false premise.
I don't know of anyone who considers that BR struck JB, strangled her with the cord and then wrote the ransom letter. That does not have any evidence to support it.

But a nine-year-old can wield a golf club and strike down on a skull that has not fully developed.

There is clearly parental coverup here, and yes the police made some mistakes.
However, it was the DA's office that was the biggest hindrance in the case.

.

 

[GRT]

It seems you are basing this entire argument on a false premise.
I don't know of anyone who considers that BR struck JB, strangled her with the cord and then wrote the ransom letter. That does not have any evidence to support it.

But a nine-year-old can wield a golf club and strike down on a skull that has not fully developed.

There is clearly parental coverup here, and yes the police made some mistakes.
However, it was the DA's office that was the biggest hindrance in the case.

.

The problem is -- if we accept that BR killed JBR, which isn't supported by any real evidence, we have to also accept that BR wrote the note or that one of his parents wrote it. It didn't match their handwriting so they probably didn't.

Plus, we have DNA found on JBR's clothing that didn't match anyone in her family. That, too, does not jive with the idea that BR killed her and the parents covered it up.

Yes, a nine-year-old could potentially swing a golf club hard enough to kill someone, but a golf club was not used to kill her. And, if he hit her on the head and she was alive, who garroted her?

It's highly unlikely a boy of BR's tender years understood the mechanics behind a garrot.

The DA did the right thing in not charging anyone in the Ramsey household because there was never any evidence that any of them were guilty. There is virtually no evidence of parental coverup. JMOO

In my opinion, LE started off on the wrong foot and it went downhill from there. That can happen when LE sets their sights on convicting someone and then ignores other avenues. And, it can snowball--they can dig their feet in (maybe because they don't want to be shown wrong?), and then they won't listen to reason.

That's what I think happened in this case. Someone badly wanted the Ramsey family to be guilty and so they kept pursuing it, but they were never successful because there was simply no evidence of any crime or coverup.

I would have immediately looked at JBR's competitors because it takes a certain sort of person to live vicariously through their child in that manner. Some will do virtually anything to ensure their child wins--even if that means taking out the prettiest competitor.

We may never get an answer now, so long after the crime, but I think we can rest assured no one in the Ramsey family is guilty.

 

[Meara]

When you spend any amount of time with kids with Aspergers there are a lot of symptoms that are usually very obvious. The little professor who will educate you on their topic of interest, adherence to routine and sameness, and yes big time rule followers. They do data dumps of information when speaking to you but there is no back and forth exchange. They can be very empathetic in the sense of social justice but be clueless to why they just hurt their friends feelings. Their emotional responses can be very logic driven but that doesn't necessarily mean without any feeling. I was telling one ASD young girl that I felt bad that I couldnt find the owners of a lost dog I ended up keeping and they must miss him. Her response was " well they didnt deserve him because they didnt take good care of him and he could have been run over". Typical logic based answer and absence of theory of mind but filled with concern for the dog. These gaps in communication cause a lot of misunderstanding for people on the spectrum. I do not take BRs comment about " getting on with his life" as anything horrible if he has a form of ASD. What he is not going to talk about is all the overwhelming feelings that are attached to the event that he doesn't want to talk about. ( also could be parroting something his parents said to him. The need to move forward after .
That being said, kids with ADHD can be
confused with having ASD and ADHD is a very common co- morbidly of ASD.
This is where I see the most problems occurring. Untreated severe ADHD can cause very impulsive acts. They are so impulsive that others feelings do not matter but can be remorseful after the fact. There can be risk taking behavior, anxiety, ODD. They can hyper fixate on areas of interest also.
Anxiety can cause very aggressive behavior in kids. Quite the opposite of what you would think. (Strike out before they get you)
Low frustration tolerence.
ADHD communication style can be one sided because they are in go mode. Now add these symptoms to ASD.
I would venture to say more people are incarcerated due to ADHD than ASD.
Sorry for the long post!
I just think some may think lack of empathy to be a key reason why they zero in on BR. What autistics say due to communication deficits is not necessarily what they feel. Asking a kid to explain how the Hoover vacuum is engineered will be easier for them than asking them about how they feel.

Thank you for bringing your experience and expertise to the discussion alongside (and hopefully in dialogue with) the clinical research.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that BR is psychopathic, just asking questions and looking at possibilities.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

The problem is -- if we accept that BR killed JBR, which isn't supported by any real evidence, we have to also accept that BR wrote the note or that one of his parents wrote it. It didn't match their handwriting so they probably didn't.

Plus, we have DNA found on JBR's clothing that didn't match anyone in her family. That, too, does not jive with the idea that BR killed her and the parents covered it up.

Yes, a nine-year-old could potentially swing a golf club hard enough to kill someone, but a golf club was not used to kill her. And, if he hit her on the head and she was alive, who garroted her?

It's highly unlikely a boy of BR's tender years understood the mechanics behind a garrot.

The DA did the right thing in not charging anyone in the Ramsey household because there was never any evidence that any of them were guilty. There is virtually no evidence of parental coverup. JMOO

In my opinion, LE started off on the wrong foot and it went downhill from there. That can happen when LE sets their sights on convicting someone and then ignores other avenues. And, it can snowball--they can dig their feet in (maybe because they don't want to be shown wrong?), and then they won't listen to reason.

That's what I think happened in this case. Someone badly wanted the Ramsey family to be guilty and so they kept pursuing it, but they were never successful because there was simply no evidence of any crime or coverup.

I would have immediately looked at JBR's competitors because it takes a certain sort of person to live vicariously through their child in that manner. Some will do virtually anything to ensure their child wins--even if that means taking out the prettiest competitor.

We may never get an answer now, so long after the crime, but I think we can rest assured no one in the Ramsey family is guilty.

I believe that many people are not any way assured that no one in the Ramsey family is not guilty. You are basing your opinion on a theory. If you dig deep into this site, there are some amazing minds who utilize logic and science, who make very compelling arguments as to why the Ramsey's story doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Theories need facts to support them in order to move forward.

 

[CloudedTruth]

Something I meant to include in my comment at #16 --

PR's friends were planning an intervention re the "mega Jonbenet thing." This apparently referred to her going overboard with the pageants. But what did the "thing" include? Did they think she was pushing JBR? Enmeshed with her? Obsessed with pageants and the dream of winning Miss America vicariously through JBR? Gone to a neurotic level of expense? Does anyone know?

And what exactly was the goal of the intervention? To get PR to stop entering JBR in pageants? Or to cut back on pageant activities? Or just to make PR aware of unhealthy excesses she didn't seem to be aware of?

And, of particular interest, what prompted the planned intervention and the timing of it? Was it behavior they observed in PR? Behavior they observed in JBR? Behavior they observed in BR? Behavior/feelings they observed in their own children? Something they overheard?

I'm theorizing that the timing of the plan to stage an intervention and the timing of JBR's murder are related; that the friends sensed something was building towards a crisis. But I haven't found any further information on the plan. If you know of any details, please do share them!

I found a snippet from the dance instructor Kit Andre, which is in the book Perfect Murder, Perfect Town. The discussion is about whether or not JBR really enjoyed the pageant life, or was it really more for PR? In it she says that PR made JBR look like a clown. She goes on to say that PR didn't have a sense of proportion about how this should fit into her child's life. "The pageants were PR's gig. JonBenet was her alter ego". That really struck a chord with me in relation to how the pageant stuff was perceived by others, and why there most likely was an intervention being planned. This ties in with PR in general I think. She seemed to gravitate towards excess. No sense of proportion. Overkill.

At the time of her death, JBR reportedly had around 30 trophies. She was 6 years old. That's a lot of trophies to have amassed in such a short time. The costumes and fittings, the make-up, the lightened hair, learning songs and dance moves, learning how to strut around provocatively.....it's just a lot for a 6 year old. At that age most kids just want to be kids. Remembering the comment JBR made to one of her friends about the trophies really belonging to her mom and that they should be in her room.....I think at least in the beginning dressing up and performing were probably fun for her, but as time went on it sure feels like PR was pushing hard to make her daughter into something I'm not so sure she really wanted to be. There is no doubt in my mind that a Miss America crown was something that PR coveted greatly. To have that vicariously through JBR would be a dream come true. To the point of losing sight of what is best for the child, the wants & desires of the child. Satisfying the mother's ambitions and dreams.

And for PR herself, the excesses are prevalent. The huge house, putting the house on display, putting her child on display, Christmas trees in every room, expensive parties.

And for a bit of a left turn, can this also relate to her being the author / writer of the RN? It was two and a half pages long, which is ridiculous for a true ransom note. It was excessive. It showed a lack of a sense of proportion. IMO it has PR's imprint all over it.

The friends sensing something was building towards a crisis feels spot on.

 

[CloudedTruth]

It seems you are basing this entire argument on a false premise.
I don't know of anyone who considers that BR struck JB, strangled her with the cord and then wrote the ransom letter. That does not have any evidence to support it.

But a nine-year-old can wield a golf club and strike down on a skull that has not fully developed.

There is clearly parental coverup here, and yes the police made some mistakes.
However, it was the DA's office that was the biggest hindrance in the case.

.

Agree. There were mistakes made by police, yes. But you are correct that at huge issue in this case is the DA's office and their behavior and handling of this case. They obstructed and hindered, instead of guiding and supporting the police in the investigation, they made it contentious and adversary. And when you look at all the ties that Hunter had with some key players on team Ramsey, it starts to make sense.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Thank you for bringing your experience and expertise to the discussion alongside (and hopefully in dialogue with) the clinical research.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that BR is psychopathic, just asking questions and looking at possibilities.

TY Meara,
He very well may be though!
My post was just to share some more common aspects of Aspergers and how it can be misunderstood especially with communication deficits.
That Dr Phil interview though!

 

[GRT]

I believe that many people are not any way assured that no one in the Ramsey family is not guilty. You are basing your opinion on a theory. If you dig deep into this site, there are some amazing minds who utilize logic and science, who make very compelling arguments as to why the Ramsey's story doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Theories need facts to support them in order to move forward.

I agree with this. My thoughts are theories. Just as other ideas on this site are also theories. None have ever been proven, and, after all this time, it's likely none ever will be.

I've always felt the persecution of the Ramsey's was based more on personal disgust that they would put their daughter in pageants--and that they were wealthy--than anything truly scientific or logical.

I'm disgusted by what the Ramseys did, too. But, I have yet to see truly compelling evidence that points toward any one of them as being the murderer. All the hard evidence--not conjecture--seems to clearly point to an outsider as the killer.

 

[Meara]

Sometimes, Occam's Razor is the likely option.

So much speculation has gone into this over the years, but even if BR killed JBR, there's no way he wrote that ransom note. The most likely scenario was, and still is, that someone who knew the family and wanted to get rid of JBR (likely another beauty pageant mother) snuck in intending to abscond with the girl, but JBR started making noises, which resulted in the need to smack her with the candlestick and then choke her out. The ransom note was likely already in place -- to distract from the true purpose of the crime -- and rather than carrying a dead body out, the perp just hid her in the basement.

All the focus on the family has been kind of silly in my opinion. Especially considering the ransom note, which was an obvious distraction. All MOO.

For me, a crazed pageant mom scenario just doesn't hold up. It was Christmas Day, and the mom had at least one young daughter at home. It's improbable that she would spend hours in the Ramsey home that evening, writing the ransom note, getting the layout of the house, and finding a hiding place instead of having Christmas/holiday dinner with her child and family. If she was a single mom, who was looking after her daughter? She couldn't have prepared the note beforehand; it was written using a pen and paper from the Ramsey home. She wouldn't have known the amount of JR's bonus; and what are the chances she would have chosen $118K on a lucky guess? Why would she have revised the note to make it address only "Mr. Ramsey" when it was PR who was most present at pageant events? Why would an envious, rage filled pageant mom take time to wrap JBR's body in a blanket? How would she even know where to get the blanket? Or the size 12 underpants, for that matter? And why - and I ask this about any intruder theory - why would she have chosen to do this on a night when the temperature didn't rise above 5 degrees? That's frostbite weather. If she planned to kidnap JBR, how was she going to get her bundled up when every minute spent in the house increased the chances of discovery? Where did she plan to take her on a night when nearly everything was closed? These are just some of the practical problems with this scenario.

The police had every reason to look hard at JBR's parents. Over 53% of murdered children are killed by someone they know who has access to them. The FBI's Ron Walker looked at the purported kidnap situation and said, "You're going to find a body." The body was found in the home. When the body is found in the home, as it was found by JR, it is almost always the killer who finds it. Despite the violence of the murder, JBR's body was found wrapped in a blanket, with her favorite nightgown nearby, signs of care and possible remorse most likely to have been placed there by a family member. The physical evidence came from within the home. There was no solid evidence of an intruder. JBR was found to have eaten fresh pineapple after 9:30 PM, proving that the parents' account of the evening's events on the 25th was untruthful. The parents' behavior was highly atypical, and they did not notice when the kidnappers didn't call by 10:00 AM, even though that call was supposedly the lifeline to JBR. Officers at the scene thought it was "off;" something was "not right." That sixth sense may be dismissed by some but, among themselves, it is respected because they rely on it for self-protection. Of course the police suspected the family. Given the totality of the circumstances, it was the most reasonable thing to do. They certainly didn't go in already disgusted because the family was wealthy, or because JBR participated in child beauty pageants.

 

[Venom]

Does no one remember Wanda Holloway? Mothers of competitive children can be vicious. Plus, beauty pageants border on being abusive themselves.

I think they determined there was no rape the night of her murder but that there might have been older sexual assault, which could point to virtually anyone. Dad, brother, mom, dance coach, uncle, neighbor, babysitter, etc. Again, lots of conjecture.

But, the idea that a nine-year-old was able to strike his little sister over the head and then garrot her (or, even know how a garrot could be used) is what's silly to me. Then, add in the ransom note that he couldn't possibly have written and I'm not sure why anyone is going down that road.

LE dropped the ball on that one. They should have been looking outside the family from the start because there was never any objective evidence any family members were involved. Being wealthy and of questionable integrity (putting a child in pageants) doesn't automatically translate into being a killer.

But, beyond that, it wasn't "overkill." It was murder, but as far as murders go, it was relatively mild.

Wanda Holloway attempted to hire a hitman to kill her daughter's cheerleading rival. There's a difference between that case and this.
I guess the older sexual assault was the cause of the wood splinter being found in JB's vagina?