Missouri, St. Louis - Teenage girl critically injured after brutal fight with another female teen near Hazelwood East High School, 8 March 2024

[Cryptic]

“Everything is out there about her being an honor student. She was taking an AP course. She has no history with the juvenile court, none. She has been the victim of bullying, but there are other facts that we’re going to save for court,” said Greg Smith, lawyer for the teenager who was charged.

Hoping she gets a new attorney- fast.

In the end, the honor student, victim of bullying, and AP class references will not change the fact that a plea of innocence is going to be based on something like:

- "Uncontrollable Fight / Flight Syndrome" that resulted in 'uncontrollable fight'- repeatedly.

Temporary insanity type pleas (Gay rage, PTSD, Bullied etc) have just not been very successful lately. The lawyer seems to be grand standing. Unless he is a locally recognized say, Defense Attorney of Excellence, its time for him to go.

 

[Cryptic]

Those MMA references were proven to have not been posted by MD, who was in custody at the time they were made.

Wait- somebody hacked her social media accounts? The police need to be made aware of that immediately.

Then again, maybe one can be in various forms of custody and still have access to social media?

Defenses based on temporary insanity and unproven accusations of hacked social media accounts seem like grand standing with a low batting average. Thinking an attorney with a high batting average would be going for: Subdued but effective plea bargaining.

 

[Yuletide]

Some interesting and well thought out posts on this thread. A couple of the posts reference that the girl that is detained was walking to her bus stop after school. The buses do not pick the kids up at the school in that town? Legitimate question, because if that one group of students was walking to their bus stop, then can an argument be made that the other group stalked them and jumped them?

 

[SteveP]

Wait- somebody hacked her social media accounts? The police need to be made aware of that immediately.

Then again, maybe one can be in various forms of custody and still have access to social media?

Defenses based on temporary insanity and unproven accusations of hacked social media accounts seem like grand standing with a low batting average. Thinking an attorney with a high batting average would be going for: Subdued but effective plea bargaining.

She was in custody, and had NO access to cell phones or computers at the time the posts were first made. This has been confirmed. Meta was surely aware of it, as they apparently deleted the account. My guess is that in St Louis, or almost any city of size, LE have far more important things to investigate than someone's social media account being hacked. Besides, it is far more likely that someone just created a new account, using her name. JMO

 

[STLBlues]

Some interesting and well thought out posts on this thread. A couple of the posts reference that the girl that is detained was walking to her bus stop after school. The buses do not pick the kids up at the school in that town? Legitimate question, because if that one group of students was walking to their bus stop, then can an argument be made that the other group stalked them and jumped them?

Yes, at the end of the school day, busses pick the students up from the school and deliver them either to their home or to a bus stop near their home (depending on the school district). So, she would not have been walking from school to the bus stop at the end of the school day.

 

[seasideForest]

I thought there was mention way back in this thread somewhere that none of them had school that day because the teachers had professional development or something similar that day. I think they used a different term.
MOO

ETA: Apparently there was a post about that, but mbr @SteveP found a link from the school showing that the following Friday there was to be no school, so actually there probably was school the day of the fight. Thanks @SteveP for clearing this up.

 

[Cryptic]

Some interesting and well thought out posts on this thread. A couple of the posts reference that the girl that is detained was walking to her bus stop after school. The buses do not pick the kids up at the school in that town?

She may of been walking to a city bus stop?

That aside, I think your good observation about the possibility of "strangeness" regarding a bus stop claim could be another indicator of the need for a new attorney.

So far, the attorney would appear to need to base his argument of "innocent" on a combination of the following:

- Was in no way walking towards a fight (Purely going home, going to a bus stop of some sort).
- Her social media accounts were hacked (inflammatory MMA post was not made by her).
- She experienced some sort of temporary insanity (Uncontrolled fight or flight syndrome, PTSD from being bullied).

It just seems to be a tall order for a jury to buy. In contrast to the Menendez brothers (PTSD argument rejected), there seems to be far more room to plea bargain in this case.

Yet, he is talking about a trial likely based on a "just trying to get home" and then "PTSD" or "Syndrome" type defense? Statistically, this just does not work.

 

[SteveP]

I thought there was mention way back in this thread somewhere that none of them had school that day because the teachers had professional development or something similar that day. I think they used a different term.
MOO

I know that someone had posted that students were not in class the day of the fight, but according to this school year calendar, it was the next Friday, a week after the fight, that students were out. I do think they were in school on Mar 8, though KG was suspended the day prior to the fight, so she would not have been.. JMO

East High School / EHS Calendar

www.hazelwoodschools.org

 

[SteveP]

She may of been walking to a city bus stop?

That aside, I think your good observation about the possibility of "strangeness" regarding a bus stop claim could be another indicator of the need for a new attorney.

So far, the attorney would appear to need to base his argument of "innocent" on a combination of the following:

- Was in no way walking towards a fight (Purely going home, going to a bus stop of some sort).
- Her social media accounts were hacked (inflammatory MMA post was not made by her).
- She experienced some sort of temporary insanity (Uncontrolled fight or flight syndrome, PTSD from being bullied).

It just seems to be a tall order for a jury to buy. In contrast to the Menendez brothers (PTSD argument rejected), there seems to be far more room to plea bargain in this case.

Yet, he is talking about a trial likely based on a "just trying to get home" and then "PTSD" or "Syndrome" type defense? Statistically, this just does not work.

IANAL, but I think it is far more likely that even the attorney knows that a not guilty plea will be a hard sell, given we have all seen the fight on video, but he is doing everything he can to lay out all of the mitigating circumstances that may exist, and may lessen any sentence if she is convicted. In that case, I feel he is doing the best job that could be expected. JMO

 

[Cryptic]

She was in custody, and had NO access to cell phones or computers at the time the posts were first made. This has been confirmed. Meta was surely aware of it, as they apparently deleted the account.

So a hacked account in which defaming and inflammatory remarks were posted about somebody facing felony charges?

Sounds like a legitimate police matter to me. Depending on the motivation for the hacking, it could even be a hate crime. It could also be a federal offense

In the end, I am thinking the following defenses are weak in this case:

- "Hacked account" (unless proven by the Police or admitted to by the Social Media company).
- "Temporary Insanity" via PTSD, a Syndrome, or anything else.
- "Stand your Ground"

Likewise, advancing a "was only trying to get home" narrative maybe risky if there are strange aspects in regards to bus stops, school release times etc.

Yet.... this attorney is still talking about a trial when there seems to be alot of room to plea bargain? Is the trial for his benefit, or the defendants?

 

[tlcya]

I know that someone had posted that students were not in class the day of the fight, but according to this school year calendar, it was the next Friday, a week after the fight, that students were out. I do think they were in school on Mar 8, though KG was suspended the day prior to the fight, so she would not have been.. JMO

East High School / EHS Calendar

www.hazelwoodschools.org

I looked at the school district website and HS students are regularly dismissed at 2:15.

Full Day​	Half Day​
High School: 7:15 a.m. - 2:15 p.m.	High School: 7:15 a.m. - 10:15 a.m.
Middle School: 8:00 a.m. - 3:00 p.m.	Middle School: 8:00 a.m. - 11:00 a.m.
Elementary School: 8:50 a.m. - 3:50 p.m.	Elementary School: 8:50 a.m. - 11:50 a.m.

Hazelwood School District / District Calendar

This lines up with the fight occurring two blocks away from school grounds at around 2:30

 

[SteveP]

I looked at the school district website and HS students are regularly dismissed at 2:15.

Full Day​	Half Day​
High School: 7:15 a.m. - 2:15 p.m.	High School: 7:15 a.m. - 10:15 a.m.
Middle School: 8:00 a.m. - 3:00 p.m.	Middle School: 8:00 a.m. - 11:00 a.m.
Elementary School: 8:50 a.m. - 3:50 p.m.	Elementary School: 8:50 a.m. - 11:50 a.m.

Hazelwood School District / District Calendar

This lines up with the fight occurring two blocks away from school grounds at around 2:30

Thank you for checking this. It would perfectly align with the students walking from school at the time of the fight, and would explain how the victim knew to be at the location at that time.

 

[Yuletide]

The other tough sell on the defense side is the post fight actions in my humble opinion. Calmly walking away like it is just a normal day, normal activity, brings pause. I also didn’t note any backpacks laying around like you would normally see from a group of high school kids.

 

[SteveP]

She may of been walking to a city bus stop?

That aside, I think your good observation about the possibility of "strangeness" regarding a bus stop claim could be another indicator of the need for a new attorney.

So far, the attorney would appear to need to base his argument of "innocent" on a combination of the following:

- Was in no way walking towards a fight (Purely going home, going to a bus stop of some sort).
- Her social media accounts were hacked (inflammatory MMA post was not made by her).
- She experienced some sort of temporary insanity (Uncontrolled fight or flight syndrome, PTSD from being bullied).

It just seems to be a tall order for a jury to buy. In contrast to the Menendez brothers (PTSD argument rejected), there seems to be far more room to plea bargain in this case.

Yet, he is talking about a trial likely based on a "just trying to get home" and then "PTSD" or "Syndrome" type defense? Statistically, this just does not work.

BBM...The fake social media account and statements from it will never be allowed to be mentioned in court, as they cannot be verified, so there will be no need for the defense to allude to it in any way.

 

[al66pine]

She may of been walking to a city bus stop?...

snipped for focus @Cryptic

W quick online searches, I've not located a city bus service typically available to Hazelwood students.

Maybe @STLBlues or one of our other St.L. metro area posters can weigh in? TiA

_________________________________
* This seems to indicate the St. L. metro area transit system's routes in City of Hazelwood area is limited, not a service which would tyoically be used for student transportation.

https://www.metrostlouis.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/191115v3-Metro-Missouri-Map-w_Downtown.pdf

This describes City of Hazelwood transportation program (not a bus service) available w. reservation to city residents who are 55+ y/o or disabled,.

Transportation Services | Hazelwood, MO

The Parks and Recreation Division offers transportation services for residents of the community.

www.hazelwoodmo.org

 

[Sundog]

She may of been walking to a city bus stop?

That aside, I think your good observation about the possibility of "strangeness" regarding a bus stop claim could be another indicator of the need for a new attorney.

So far, the attorney would appear to need to base his argument of "innocent" on a combination of the following:

- Was in no way walking towards a fight (Purely going home, going to a bus stop of some sort).
- Her social media accounts were hacked (inflammatory MMA post was not made by her).
- She experienced some sort of temporary insanity (Uncontrolled fight or flight syndrome, PTSD from being bullied).

It just seems to be a tall order for a jury to buy. In contrast to the Menendez brothers (PTSD argument rejected), there seems to be far more room to plea bargain in this case.

Yet, he is talking about a trial likely based on a "just trying to get home" and then "PTSD" or "Syndrome" type defense? Statistically, this just does not work.

If the attorney is preparing for the juvenile court hearing, then the issues he is focusing on seem appropriate for that venue, as there is no trial per se, but rather a hearing before a judge where psycho-social history of juvenile will be presented by the probation department, along with prosecutor's statements, and statements by the juvenile's representatives (in this case, likely her attorney and her parents). But if the attorney is preparing already for a trial, then that sounds like he is assuming that the juvenile will be transferred to adult court to face the charges against her and if that is the case, much of what he is stating to the public won't help much, IMO, in adult court.

 

[Cryptic]

IANAL, but I think it is far more likely that even the attorney knows that a not guilty plea will be a hard sell, given we have all seen the fight on video, but he is doing everything he can to lay out all of the mitigating circumstances that may exist, and may lessen any sentence if she is convicted.

I fully agree that your scenario is possible and that what we have seen so far could be advancing the strategy that you layed out.

I just dont agree with the "far more likely" aspect of it. There are alot of bad attorneys out there and also attorneys who, with good intentions, take cases beyond their skill level.

Then again, I am biased- I was burned once by an attorney who combined manipulation with marginal competence (The BAR accepted my complaint).

In the end, if the attorney is locally recognized as being highly skilled, I would go with your 'strategic plan' possibility.

But if the attorney is an "unknown", I would be getting cold feet unless serious plea bargaining efforts were being initiated.

 

[Sundog]

IBut if the attorney is an "unknown", I would be getting cold feet unless serious plea bargaining efforts were being initiated.

<Snipped for focus>

I think it is too soon for plea bargaining since the case is still in juvenile court, IIRC. That is something that could happen, of course, if the case is transferred to adult court.

With regard to the attorney being "unknown" or not, it is my experience in juvenile court that often times an attorney who is not familiar with the juvenile court system and even the judges who sit on the bench in the juvenile courts in their districts don't do as well in representing their clients. The local/regional attorneys know the particular juvenile court system and jurisdiction better and also the various judges who are assigned to the cases. Sometimes a family will hire an out of town attorney who they think will do a better job representing their child in juvenile court, and often it doesn't work out that way. This isn't a hard and fast rule, of course, just my experience and observation.

 

[Yuletide]

It is my opinion that MD’s intent that day will be important whether tried as a juvenile or an adult. If she went to the place of the fight to fight, that will prove to be problematic for her defense team, in my opinion. That video clip is one of the most repulsive things I have ever seen.

 

[Cryptic]

W quick online searches, I've not located a city bus service typically available to Hazelwood students.

I think this is more impetus to support a plea bargain once the final Court venue is established.

In the end, strange "Aw shucks, it is still possible that...." aspects to a "just going home" claim detract from any self defense claim at Court (including temp insanity from PTSD, a syndrome etc).

Likewise, as @Yuletide notes, "Aw shucks, maybe she...." aspects to a "going home" claim likely make it that much more difficult to keep the case in juvenile court.

<Snipped for focus>

I think it is too soon for plea bargaining since the case is still in juvenile court, IIRC. That is something that could happen, of course, if the case is transferred to adult court.

With regard to the attorney being "unknown" or not, it is my experience in juvenile court that often times an attorney who is not familiar with the juvenile court system and even the judges who sit on the bench in the juvenile courts in their districts don't do as well in representing their clients.

Thank you for your well informed points. Especially regarding that it might be pre mature to start plea bargaining as the Court venue has not been officially decided.