Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #3

If Caylees body wasn't in the trunk at the time then why was the smell so unberable and why didn't the tow yard guy smell anything when he picked the car up? It was AFTER the car was towed that it began smelling so that is where I am confused. Something is not adding up to me and is making me wonder if this SB guy is in on everything. He says they threw the bag over the fence b/c it contained maggots and stuff. Could it be that they are leaving the part out that Caylees body was also in the bag?

This also makes me wonder that if Caylees body was in the trunk that long that maybe that is WHY the car is still smelling 4 months later.[/QUOTE]


I'll be interested to hear about the conditions about when the car was towed. I think I've seen cars being towed and with the equipment they have now days, it is a pretty fast and simple task. I can't remember if it was stated if the car was locked or not. I wonder if the tow guy had to open the car to lock the steering wheel? Or open it just to lock the doors? Do we know?

Also, I wonder if a strong breeze was present on that day. If it was blowing away from him, it could have taken any odor present. Same if it was raining. I would kind of think that after a car was impounded, no one would really pay any attention to it physically until it was picked up or had to be moved again.

Baznme said:

The towyard guy didn't smell anything when he towed the car because he had a bad head cold.

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I forgot about that!

If Caylees body wasn't in the trunk at the time then why was the smell so unberable and why didn't the tow yard guy smell anything when he picked the car up? It was AFTER the car was towed that it began smelling so that is where I am confused. Something is not adding up to me and is making me wonder if this SB guy is in on everything. He says they threw the bag over the fence b/c it contained maggots and stuff. Could it be that they are leaving the part out that Caylees body was also in the bag?

This also makes me wonder that if Caylees body was in the trunk that long that maybe that is WHY the car is still smelling 4 months later.

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headndownstream said:

I'll be interested to hear about the conditions about when the car was towed. I think I've seen cars being towed and with the equipment they have now days, it is a pretty fast and simple task. I can't remember if it was stated if the car was locked or not. I wonder if the tow guy had to open the car to lock the steering wheel? Or open it just to lock the doors? Do we know?

Also, I wonder if a strong breeze was present on that day. If it was blowing away from him, it could have taken any odor present. Same if it was raining. I would kind of think that after a car was impounded, no one would really pay any attention to it physically until it was picked up or had to be moved again.

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The guy who towed the truck just put the car on the truck. I don't believe he needed to get in.

The reason why he didn't smell anything is because (the driver, not the owner ) had a bad cold and couldn't smell anything.

Indigo said:

Hi reeseeva,

I think we'll find at trial that the "inconclusive" wording on the decomposition is simply the result of necessary and legal scientific terminology. Could there be an alternative explantion to human decomposition in the trunk? Sure. But the bizarre mixture of food items, chemicals and decomposing animals which would have had to be in the trunk of that car at the same time to create that VOC signature is just not feasible, IMO. I don't believe a jury will buy it--especially when Caylee's body was found dumped right around the corner.

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Appreciate your response, & correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the legal pundits on some of the previous talk shows, had said that "air samples" had never been introduced or relied upon in any previous case & may not even be admissable? Hearing it dissected by various Defense attorneys, gives cause for alarm. Wouldn't you think that carpet analysis, even after a month's time, would prove conclusive human decompostion with a definite DNA finding? In light of all the other facts, I would think this would be "The Smoking Gun"

reeseeva said:

Appreciate your response, & correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the legal pundits on some of the previous talk shows, had said that "air samples" had never been introduced or relied upon in any previous case & may not even be admissable? Hearing it dissected by various Defense attorneys, gives cause for alarm. Wouldn't you think that carpet analysis, even after a month's time, would prove conclusive human decompostion with a definite DNA finding? In light of all the other facts, I would think this would be "The Smoking Gun"

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I don't think it's unusual or worrisome that the results were "inconclusive" for human decomposition. As I mentioned in my last post, there are single compounds in the signature that can be produced by other things. For instance: One of the VOCs could have been produced by a decomposing pig.(or a human) Another of the compounds could have been produced by a decomposing dog. (or a human) And so on, and so on. Could Casey have had a decomposing dog,a pig and other flotsam and jetsam in her trunk? I suppose anything's possible. But even that could never explain the existence of the hair with post-mortem banding, that contained the mtDNA of Caylee Anthony.

I believe the totality of the evidence (even if the Body Farm results aren't allowed at trial) will be enough to complete the picture. We still haven't heard the results of soil samples, forensic botany, entomology, or fiber evidence that may link the trunk to the disposal site.

cocoamom said:

I just had a thought and need some input from you folks please...

July here in FL is HOT HOT HOT. The inside of a closed car can get into the 130-160 degree range in the mid day in a very short time.

So the car is towed on June 30 and sat until July 15. Can maggots and/or their eggs/larvae withstand that kind of heat??? Even under a garbage bag, the heat it seems to me would absolutely COOK them!! There is just no way these things could live inside a completely closed up car over a 2 week period - let alone "flies"!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just thought about this - tells me that garbage bag and/or stain/maggots/flies wasn't in there that long - as a matter of fact, couldn't have been in there more than 1 day!!!

Am I crazy? I know, will probably be moved to the entomologist thread...

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Hi cocoamom. I found a PDF on http://www.clt.uwa.edu.au/__data/page/112507/fse07_forensic_entomology.pdf if that link was posted before I apologize. I thought it was an interesting read. I do not have any forensic entomological education but I can share an anecdotal information in that I live in Central Texas and it can be extraordinarily hot here in the summer.
By that I mean, our actual tempature outside in the month of July and August can reach upwards of 110 degrees F. (When it hits 110 to 116 actual temps it can be very unpleasant!) I can share that even in those temps I have found maggots and flies in my closed Garbage Cans. In fact, they seem to breed very quickly and evolve very quickly in that kind of heat. My garbage cans sit in the direct sunlight. Hope this casts some light on the type of heat a maggot or fly can survive.

Indigo said:

I don't think it's unusual or worrisome that the results were "inconclusive" for human decomposition. As I mentioned in my last post, there are single compounds in the signature that can be produced by other things. For instance: One of the VOCs could have been produced by a decomposing pig.(or a human) Another of the compounds could have been produced by a decomposing dog. (or a human) And so on, and so on. Could Casey have had a decomposing dog,a pig and other flotsam and jetsam in her trunk? I suppose anything's possible. But even that could never explain the existence of the hair with post-mortem banding, that contained the mtDNA of Caylee Anthony.

I believe the totality of the evidence (even if the Body Farm results aren't allowed at trial) will be enough to complete the picture. We still haven't heard the results of soil samples, forensic botany, entomology, or fiber evidence that may link the trunk to the disposal site.

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Agreed. I believe there will be enough circumstantial evidence to indicate a dead Caylee was in the trunk. This includes the odor analysis, the analysis of chemicals found in the trunk liner stain, and the single hair with the death band. Add to this the testimony of GA, the tow yard attendant, LE, and cadaver dog hits. Possible evidence not released might include DNA analysis of the stain an even DNA analysis of maggots found in the trunk.

With all that it gets harder and harder for the defense to construct an alternate explanation. What the defense would then need to do is see if they can show someone else had control of the vehicle during June 16 to June 27. I don't think they will be able to come up with a plausible scenario, IMHO.

cocoamom said:

I just had a thought and need some input from you folks please...

July here in FL is HOT HOT HOT. The inside of a closed car can get into the 130-160 degree range in the mid day in a very short time.

So the car is towed on June 30 and sat until July 15. Can maggots and/or their eggs/larvae withstand that kind of heat??? Even under a garbage bag, the heat it seems to me would absolutely COOK them!! There is just no way these things could live inside a completely closed up car over a 2 week period - let alone "flies"!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just thought about this - tells me that garbage bag and/or stain/maggots/flies wasn't in there that long - as a matter of fact, couldn't have been in there more than 1 day!!!

Am I crazy? I know, will probably be moved to the entomologist thread...

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I too live in FL and know how hot it can get, but even if the bugs died, wouldn't there be "bug bodies" in the trunk? Does anyone know if tests can be done on dead maggots, flies? It could also make a big difference in the temperature if the car was parked in the shade and not directly in the sun.

JWG said:

And again, I go back to the fact that the computer searches coincided with Ricardo posting the "Win her over with chloroform" picture on his myspace, which incidentally appeared on several other myspace pages this past March. The image is one of a well-dressed gentleman getting ready to "assault" a well-dressed woman with a rag soaked with chloroform.

After the search for chloroform KC searches self-defense and views a book on women's self defense. That search spawns a search for household weapons and then finally neck-breaking and shovel. Along the way she stops to take a poll on zombies. All of this occurs in the span of 12 minutes.

So, is the only explanation for the searches one where KC is laying the foundation for a diabolical plan to be hatched three months into the future (based on 12 minutes of planning)? Or could it have been her trying to understand what the image was all about, what it could do to her should Ricardo have some and use it on her, and how she might go about defending herself...and then in twelve short minutes deciding it was not anything to worry about so why not go back to uploading photos to Photobucket?

My speculation only...

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:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
VERY VALID POINT!!

I have not looked over the searches that closely and I was unaware that all these happened in 12 minutes. This sounds EXACTLY like my crazy internet surfing... from one weirdly related subject to the next.

This sheds a WHOLE new light onto the internet searches and the chloroform concept.

Great work! You're awesome! :blowkiss:

BuzzieCat said:

I was watching Dr. G's show last night and she was talking about homicide. (In the case she was talking about, a woman stabbed her boyfriend in the arm and he died in the hospital.) She said that homicide means that a person is killed by someone else's action but does not necessarily mean intentional murder and that it's then LE's and courts' job to determine whether it was murder or accident or what have you. In this case, Dr. G determined that the man died because of the girlfriend stabbing him, even though he had other comorbidities that contributed to his death (allergic reaction to blood transfusion, liver problems leading to increased bleeding). The girlfriend was given 12 years probation.

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(bold mine) Yes--homicide refers generally to one person causing the death of another, beyond which murder is but one possible charge depending upon whether or not there may have been intent, malice, foreseeability etc involved. JMO

JWG said:

And again, I go back to the fact that the computer searches coincided with Ricardo posting the "Win her over with chloroform" picture on his myspace, which incidentally appeared on several other myspace pages this past March. The image is one of a well-dressed gentleman getting ready to "assault" a well-dressed woman with a rag soaked with chloroform.

After the search for chloroform KC searches self-defense and views a book on women's self defense. That search spawns a search for household weapons and then finally neck-breaking and shovel. Along the way she stops to take a poll on zombies. All of this occurs in the span of 12 minutes.

So, is the only explanation for the searches one where KC is laying the foundation for a diabolical plan to be hatched three months into the future (based on 12 minutes of planning)? Or could it have been her trying to understand what the image was all about, what it could do to her should Ricardo have some and use it on her, and how she might go about defending herself...and then in twelve short minutes deciding it was not anything to worry about so why not go back to uploading photos to Photobucket?

My speculation only...

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Yes but a refreshingly sane, rational and extremely plausible one. JMO

Indigo said:

Hi reeseeva,

I think we'll find at trial that the "inconclusive" wording on the decomposition is simply the result of necessary and legal scientific terminology. Could there be an alternative explantion to human decomposition in the trunk? Sure. But the bizarre mixture of food items, chemicals and decomposing animals which would have had to be in the trunk of that car at the same time to create that VOC signature is just not feasible, IMO. I don't believe a jury will buy it--especially when Caylee's body was found dumped right around the corner.

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Indigo, Just curious if you have read http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3042297#post3042297 an exhaustive explanation from Butwhatif? And then read
Post 23 from Wudge:waitasec:

The forensic report is more definite than to say just "inconclusive". Science speak is naturally cautious, unlikely to claim certainty. The report to me confirms there are products of decomposition AND it is human and not animal. The investigators went to some trouble to compare with control sample from other cars and to eliminate the decomposition of pizza (mushroom and pepperoni).
I have already expressed more caution with the chloroform results. The report definately shows high levels, but almost any student of chemistry could explain possible reasons for the presence of chloroform.

cocoamom said:

I just had a thought and need some input from you folks please...

July here in FL is HOT HOT HOT. The inside of a closed car can get into the 130-160 degree range in the mid day in a very short time.

So the car is towed on June 30 and sat until July 15. Can maggots and/or their eggs/larvae withstand that kind of heat??? Even under a garbage bag, the heat it seems to me would absolutely COOK them!! There is just no way these things could live inside a completely closed up car over a 2 week period - let alone "flies"!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just thought about this - tells me that garbage bag and/or stain/maggots/flies wasn't in there that long - as a matter of fact, couldn't have been in there more than 1 day!!!

Am I crazy? I know, will probably be moved to the entomologist thread...

Click to expand...

Hi CCM...missed your posts!

This is a great question, so of course I had to go out and do a little research.

Temperatures in the Orlando area from June 16 to July 15, while warm for a northerner like me, were not particularly hot for that time of year. The high stayed below 95F and the low was often below 70F.

A couple weeks ago I posted on some research I had done that indicated the trunk temperature of a white car in direct sunlight at midday would be 10F to 12F warmer than the ambient air temperature. At other periods the temperature would be only slightly more than ambient, and at night it would be equal.

Looking back at the records, the trunk temperature hit 40C a couple times but generally stayed in the range 25C to 35C during this time.

I am not an entomologist and I have no idea what species of blowfly was found in the trunk, but I found some information on Wikipedia regarding the black blowfly Phormia that is informative:

The highest rate of larval development occurs at a constant temperature of 35C. At this temperature the insect can go from egg to pupa in 11 days. Afterward the pupa will leave the corpse and burrow into the ground, emerging as an adult 7 to 14 days later. I do not know how the lack of "ground" inside the trunk would have affected the development of pupae into adult blowfly.

It seems plausible that if the smell in the trunk was so bad for so long that a constant stream of flies would have been trying to get into the trunk. After reading through the Wikipedia articles and looking at the actual Orlando temperatures, it no longer seems surprising to me that GA and CA reported seeing a combination of live flies and maggots on July 15 (31 days after Caylee's death).

JWG said:

And again, I go back to the fact that the computer searches coincided with Ricardo posting the "Win her over with chloroform" picture on his myspace, which incidentally appeared on several other myspace pages this past March. The image is one of a well-dressed gentleman getting ready to "assault" a well-dressed woman with a rag soaked with chloroform.

After the search for chloroform KC searches self-defense and views a book on women's self defense. That search spawns a search for household weapons and then finally neck-breaking and shovel. Along the way she stops to take a poll on zombies. All of this occurs in the span of 12 minutes.

So, is the only explanation for the searches one where KC is laying the foundation for a diabolical plan to be hatched three months into the future (based on 12 minutes of planning)? Or could it have been her trying to understand what the image was all about, what it could do to her should Ricardo have some and use it on her, and how she might go about defending herself...and then in twelve short minutes deciding it was not anything to worry about so why not go back to uploading photos to Photobucket?

My speculation only...

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I'm not an expert by any means, so this is going on my assumptions.

I don't think the lab people said, "Hey, lets test specifically for chloroform." I would think they analyze for many different chemicals, and chloroform happened to turn up. I would also think these labs have experience in these kind of things, and would be able to tell if this chloroform showed up as a result of cleaning fluids or decomp+chlorine. I doubt Pine Sol has chloroform in it, but for the sake of argument, if it did, and it was used to clean the trunk, I highly doubt all the other ingredients of Pine Sol are going to dissipate and leave nothing behind but chloroform. If it was a mixture of decomp and chlorine and whatever else, I also highly doubt every molecule of what came together to form the chloroform was in the mix, so there should have been traces found of something besides the chloroform.
I'm just going by what I read. The forensics report broke down the compounds found in the trunk, and referred to them as consistent with a decompositional event. It seems to me if the chloroform was related to cleaning fluid or decomp/chlorine, it would have said so in the report.
JMO
Lanie

JWG said:

And again, I go back to the fact that the computer searches coincided with Ricardo posting the "Win her over with chloroform" picture on his myspace, which incidentally appeared on several other myspace pages this past March. The image is one of a well-dressed gentleman getting ready to "assault" a well-dressed woman with a rag soaked with chloroform.

After the search for chloroform KC searches self-defense and views a book on women's self defense. That search spawns a search for household weapons and then finally neck-breaking and shovel. Along the way she stops to take a poll on zombies. All of this occurs in the span of 12 minutes.

So, is the only explanation for the searches one where KC is laying the foundation for a diabolical plan to be hatched three months into the future (based on 12 minutes of planning)? Or could it have been her trying to understand what the image was all about, what it could do to her should Ricardo have some and use it on her, and how she might go about defending herself...and then in twelve short minutes deciding it was not anything to worry about so why not go back to uploading photos to Photobucket?

My speculation only...

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I have also thought that was the reason for the chloroform searches and have wondered if the chloroform found in the trunk was caused by a combination of pool chemicals and the body decomposing.

Hercule Poirot said:

.....I have already expressed more caution with the chloroform results. The report definately shows high levels, but almost any student of chemistry could explain possible reasons for the presence of chloroform.

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I found this "recipe" for chloroform on the internet, and it basically just needs chlorine (pool shock is specifically mentioned) and acetone. It made me wonder if KC possibly placed Caylee's body in a cooler on ice for the first day or so, and perhaps the cooler had been used to store pool shock. I have no idea where the acetone would have come from, but I can see this possibly being a source of chlorine being found. Do we know if LE took any large coolers with them in their evidence from the Anthony home? Do the Anthony's have a large freezer?? Anyway, here is the recipe:

http://www.sci-spot.com/chemistry/chloro2.htm

http://www.sci-spot.com/chemistry/chloro2.htm

Lanie said:

I'm not an expert by any means, so this is going on my assumptions.

I don't think the lab people said, "Hey, lets test specifically for chloroform." I would think they analyze for many different chemicals, and chloroform happened to turn up. I would also think these labs have experience in these kind of things, and would be able to tell if this chloroform showed up as a result of cleaning fluids or decomp+chlorine. I doubt Pine Sol has chloroform in it, but for the sake of argument, if it did, and it was used to clean the trunk, I highly doubt all the other ingredients of Pine Sol are going to dissipate and leave nothing behind but chloroform. If it was a mixture of decomp and chlorine and whatever else, I also highly doubt every molecule of what came together to form the chloroform was in the mix, so there should have been traces found of something besides the chloroform.
I'm just going by what I read. The forensics report broke down the compounds found in the trunk, and referred to them as consistent with a decompositional event. It seems to me if the chloroform was related to cleaning fluid or decomp/chlorine, it would have said so in the report.
JMO
Lanie

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I am not saying that the chloroform is not there because KC used pure chloroform. Just that its presence could possibly be for a host of plausible reasons. "Reasonable doubt" and all that. I had a little bit to do with chemistry 25 years ago and I could explain away the presence of chloroform. A "dream team" expert wittness would have no trouble at all. Of course, if the forensic analysis of the remains shows chloroform in the hair or tissue then we look at the chloroform floating around the trunk in a different light.

Lanie said:

I'm not an expert by any means, so this is going on my assumptions.

I don't think the lab people said, "Hey, lets test specifically for chloroform." I would think they analyze for many different chemicals, and chloroform happened to turn up. I would also think these labs have experience in these kind of things, and would be able to tell if this chloroform showed up as a result of cleaning fluids or decomp+chlorine. I doubt Pine Sol has chloroform in it, but for the sake of argument, if it did, and it was used to clean the trunk, I highly doubt all the other ingredients of Pine Sol are going to dissipate and leave nothing behind but chloroform. If it was a mixture of decomp and chlorine and whatever else, I also highly doubt every molecule of what came together to form the chloroform was in the mix, so there should have been traces found of something besides the chloroform.
I'm just going by what I read. The forensics report broke down the compounds found in the trunk, and referred to them as consistent with a decompositional event. It seems to me if the chloroform was related to cleaning fluid or decomp/chlorine, it would have said so in the report.
JMO
Lanie

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The chloroform testing came from the body farm, small amounts are expected in human decomp but the levels they were getting were much much higher than that. They reported those findings to LE who then did a search of her computer records and found the google searches.

Being there from pesticide made a lot of sense to me until I tried to find a household pesticide that contains it and couldn't find anything. It is present in a pesticide used on large industrial farms, but doesn't seem likely to be out of George's shed.

reeseeva said:

Indigo, Just curious if you have read http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3042297#post3042297 an exhaustive explanation from Butwhatif? And then read
Post 23 from Wudge:waitasec:

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You can always count on Wudge for correct info on how the Defense will proceed-- a mind worthy of any Dream Team!

That being said, I truly believe that the alternate explanation for the VOCs will be problematic for the Defense. A wrapped animal carcass? Onions? cabbage? Spot remover? Bleach mixed with organic chemicals? And so on...and so on...

Or is the solution to the VOC/decomposition puzzle as simple as a single hair with post-mortem banding, which matches the mtDNA of Caylee Anthony and leads just around the corner to her body?

impatientredhead said:

The chloroform testing came from the body farm, small amounts are expected in human decomp but the levels they were getting were much much higher than that. They reported those findings to LE who then did a search of her computer records and found the google searches.

Being there from pesticide made a lot of sense to me until I tried to find a household pesticide that contains it and couldn't find anything. It is present in a pesticide used on large industrial farms, but doesn't seem likely to be out of George's shed.

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IIRC, someone found chloroform RESIDUE on something in the wheel well, and RESIDUE CONSISTANT WITH CHLOROFORM on part of the trunk lining. Could be wrong, though. I rely mostly on my memory in this case, and there is just so much to remember.
Lanie