Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 2

I'm still reading through the thread, but does anyone know if Jean C. works, and if so what hours are worked?

That could help you knock off this date quickly if she works 9-5 M-F:

BondJamesBond said:

<respectfully snipped>

~9AM 6/2 (note not a weekend date, but, Cindy home on vacation)
​

Click to expand...

PotatoHead said:

I'm still reading through the thread, but does anyone know if Jean C. works, and if so what hours are worked?

That could help you knock off this date quickly if she works 9-5 M-F:

Click to expand...

Thanks, PH. Jean says he/she's very busy through the week...so he/she's certain the events he/she witnessed were on the weekend when he/she was washing his/her car and when he/she was mowing, IIRC.

FWIW...throwing the 6/2 date in there as a candidate for "other fights" that may have happened and were not witnessed...just FWIW stuff. Went into details several posts back on Casey being MIA 6/1 for the entire 24hrs...IIRC...its all running together @ the moment...then Casey took Caylee to Tony's apt. for pool-time and first-meeting w/ Tony 6/2.

AZlawyer said:

Chris S**** told LE he thought he saw KC running along Chickasaw around 9-9:30 am on July 15, and sent her a text asking if it was her.

The released docs show that this text was actually sent 7:38 am July 14:

Chris to KC 7:38 am: "Were you running this morning?"
Chris to KC 8:17 am: "O nevermind. I thought i say you." (error in original )

So this episode of jogging was long after KC had left the house and was not in connection with any pre-murder fight with Cindy.

Click to expand...

thanks.. that will eliminate wondering if Chris sawing her running in June.

I think JC only seen 2 of the possible 4 fights...

BondJamesBond said:

...Nice summary, IBY.

I took a quick look (and I do mean quick) @ Saturday, 6/14.

Casey headed out from G&C's ~11:50AM going to Tony's. She called Amy (prolly pushing off the move-in date again, since she'd said "tomorrow" the day before...George-stroke-day & supposed to goto J'ville-day ...and day she was gonna give Amy the 'ok' to tow her car to Tony's apt. that evening). After getting to Tony's there's 2.5 hours of cell inactivity and Casey shows up pinging over by Jesse & Tony R's....guessing this may have been taking in a movie...lunch w/ Tony...nothin' comes to mind.

@ 3:14PM call from G&C's rolls to vmail

@ 3:30PM Casey left Tony's and headed back to G&C's...calling G&C along the way.

Casey was @ G&C's for the remainder of the afternoon and evening...absolutely burned up the texting w/ Tony...w/ some Jesse sprinkled in for good measure. Heavier Facebook activity as the evening wore on.

Did Cindy hafta go somewhere the afternoon of 6/14? Casey getting called home to care for Caylee? Gotta look into that a bit futher.

Recall that 6/15 ~9AM maybe candidate for the drive-away "fight" w/ Casey heading to Tony's whilst Cindy & Caylee would leave for Mt. Dora shortly after. Casey likely upset that her Saturday-w/-Tony had been cut short...anxious to get going Sunday morning w/ Cindy reminding her as she left that Cindy would hafta be @ work Monday morning and she couldn't tolerate another MIA Casey that evening...:waitasec: I edited the post above to put the 6/15 AM encounter on the list of likely candidates for Jean C. events.

BTW...IBY...along w/ the pattern you're seeing. I'd like to add..

~9AM 6/2 (note not a weekend date, but, Cindy home on vacation)
~9AM 6/7
~9AM 6/15​

All of these potential "fights" occur when Cindy or Casey are parting from one another. IOW...when they'd be trying to strike an agreement on what they could count on from the other one next (e.g. be home to take care of Caylee). And, as you pointed out in the pattern above...Hide-the-Caylee seems to have been Casey's way of sticking it to Cindy to "show her" who had the upper-hand.

Click to expand...

With that.. I would like to say there was a fight on June 2.. maybe a small bickering fight. The 9 AM pattern works for me!

Casey was also motivated after having sex with Tony for the first time the day before on June 1st to check to see if he was daddy material on the 2nd.

I have noticed up above.. I left out May 29th -31st in the links above.

This info also has become useful in the Accountability of Caylee thread in the Resource links.
So. I posted the info over there as well.
From May 23rd - June 5th. (added BJB info about the chats on the 23rd)

Here are the links.
May 23rd-May31st First meet Tony, ABC Party, 29th and 30th at Ric's Click here

June 1st Day with Tony BBQ at Arden Villages Click here

June 2nd Casey and Caylee spend day at Tony's Click here

June 3 Casey stays close to home Click here

June 4th Party for Troy at Voyage Click here

June 5th Cindy's 50th Birthday Click here

Still working on the 6th and 7th

June 6th is done..

FWIW...I found the "...spending a day with Caylee is more exhausting than..." comment in the IM's with Tony R.. Unfortunately, it was in unallocated clusters, so the only clue as to the date of its origin is the few lines of texting surrounding it re: Casey having gone home early after talking to Tony R., and Tony R. getting blasted the night before.

Unallocated clusters p2655


Also, FWIW, noted Casey commenting to Tony R. about her upcoming 'vacation' and since this was sent the Friday before meeting Tony L. she was free.


So...from 5/23 week, starting vacation Thursday of 'next week' would be 5/29-30. Planning to have 15-days of vacation. That would put her vacation ending....hmmm...:waitasec: 6/16'ish...

IIRC, Casey also told Tony L. later that she had been on vacation for 2 weeks (in IM's 'bout going in @ 6AM ) which would've allowed her to spend all that time w/ him the week he was off from class.

Sooooo....Casey was clearly planning on ditching on Cindy well before meeting Tony L. That's seems something worth considering.

ibyoungr said:

I have noticed up above.. I left out May 29th -31st in the links above.

This info also has become useful in the Accountability of Caylee thread in the Resource links.
So. I posted the info over there as well.
From May 24th - June 5th.

Here are the links.
May 24th-May31st First meet Tony, ABC Party, 29th and 30th at Ric's Click here

June 1st Day with Tony BBQ at Arden Villages Click here

June 2nd Casey and Caylee spend day at Tony's Click here

June 3 Casey stays close to home Click here

June 4th Party for Troy at Voyage Click here

June 5th Cindy's 50th Birthday Click here

Still working on the 6th and 7th

Click to expand...

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

AWESOME WORK ! ! !
:woohoo:

THANKS SOOOO VERRRRRY MUCH FOR ALL YA'LLS HARD WORK !!!

JMO
God Bless !
jjgram

I added the above with credit to BJB to the time line link above for May 23rd to May 31st. It seems to me the texts and chats start to make a lot more since when meshed into the pings and interviews.

ibyoungr said:

Pings have Casey at the Anthony ranch at 3:16 AM... leaves A home at 7:25 Am. I think she got some sleep in... and made up an excuse that she had to go back into work.(to clean up from event)... and she was just a Tony's (this was my first thought..)

I was just noodling around with maybe she was only in the area and then went back home.. just to see if I could fit in a fight that day. June 1st really may have still seemed like May but yet June to JC.

She could have went back to Tony's got called by her mom.. then went back home to appease her mother... fight happens.. she leaves....

My first thought was she did go back to Tony's crawled into bed with him and per Tony's interview.. the first time they became intimate was on this date. Kids hook up at all hours these days.. no romance left in their bones...

However, seems I recall his roommate saying.. "he could hear noises" while they were "sleeping" together.

The impression I got from JC's interview... the one thing he/she was sure of was it was not a day during the week because he/she was working...
Which puts me back at May 26th BBQ day.... Fight with Casey.... Lee shows up.. Mom laments to Lee... You would think that Cindy would remember them both being there.. unless she was glad one of them was gone.:waitasec:

I have no doubt there was a constant tit for tat bickering going on an that is why Casey took Caylee... Casey was also testing to see if Tony was daddy material.

Click to expand...

This post cracked me up. I got a kick out of your commentary. So true.

Looking at the dates of June 1, 2, 3, and 4 with fresh eyes I really get a feel for what was going on then.

Keeping in mind that CA had recently found the pics of KC at the no clothes party that took place end of May, KC's perpetual work claims were wearing on CA.

Also keeping in mind that CA told her work peeps that she was hoping to have bonding time with KC during her upcoming week off really sets up a volatile environment considering -

Sunday, June 1, KC feigns working all day - does not get home until past midnight.
CA contacts her AM, PM afternoon 2X and 8:51 PM.

I can just hear how the conversations may have gone down, "How long do you have to work today? (CA doubting that KC is working)
Afternoon, "Are you almost through?" Again at 4:29 PM, "Nobody works this many hours, get home, I'm tired and have been looking after Caylee all day, would like to see you and so would Caylee, my turn to rest, etc."
8:51 PM "Get your arse home now. You don't care about me or your daughter you are selfish and an ingrate. I don't appreciate this one bit and you're going to have to shape up or ship out."

Even after this 9PM call, KC does not get home til after midnight. The activity of June 1 set up the first major fight surrounding Caylee's care. The 8:51 PM call was a precursor to the inperson fight that probably took place on June 2.

IMO the only reason KC had Caylee with her on June 2 when she went to TL's, was because of the shake down with CA that occurred over the events of June 1. KC is home by 7:00 PM on June 2 but calls first (I wonder if she tried to feel out if she would be able to return to TL's without Caylee).

June 3 is telling. KC is taking her mom out to dinner to pacify her and show her she does care, blah, blah blah. Do we know if this dinner really took place?

June 4 KC is right back to business as usual. KC calls home at 3:45 PM.
Then CA is calling her repeatedly beginning at 2:25 AM for three calls total. KC does not return home until well after 3:00 AM - the wee hours of June 5 (which begins CA's birthday).

IMO this got CA's day off to a bad start.

I'm just recapping what ya'll have already figured out and agreeing that the events of these dates turned up the heat for what was to come.

June 6th is now done.... Click here...

Also updated May 29th with Tony L's chat log...

Do we have a sweating icon????

Woe.be.gone said:

Looking at the dates of June 1, 2, 3, and 4 with fresh eyes I really get a feel for what was going on then.

Keeping in mind that CA had recently found the pics of KC at the no clothes party that took place end of May, KC's perpetual work claims were wearing on CA.

Also keeping in mind that CA told her work peeps that she was hoping to have bonding time with KC during her upcoming week off really sets up a volatile environment considering -

Sunday, June 1, KC feigns working all day - does not get home until past midnight.
CA contacts her AM, PM afternoon 2X and 8:51 PM.

I can just hear how the conversations may have gone down, "How long do you have to work today? (CA doubting that KC is working)
Afternoon, "Are you almost through?" Again at 4:29 PM, "Nobody works this many hours, get home, I'm tired and have been looking after Caylee all day, would like to see you and so would Caylee, my turn to rest, etc."
8:51 PM "Get your arse home now. You don't care about me or your daughter you are selfish and an ingrate. I don't appreciate this one bit and you're going to have to shape up or ship out."

Even after this 9PM call, KC does not get home til after midnight. The activity of June 1 set up the first major fight surrounding Caylee's care. The 8:51 PM call was a precursor to the inperson fight that probably took place on June 2.

IMO the only reason KC had Caylee with her on June 2 when she went to TL's, was because of the shake down with CA that occurred over the events of June 1. KC is home by 7:00 PM on June 2 but calls first (I wonder if she tried to feel out if she would be able to return to TL's without Caylee).

June 3 is telling. KC is taking her mom out to dinner to pacify her and show her she does care, blah, blah blah. Do we know if this dinner really took place?

June 4 KC is right back to business as usual. KC calls home at 3:45 PM.
Then CA is calling her repeatedly beginning at 2:25 AM for three calls total. KC does not return home until well after 3:00 AM - the wee hours of June 5 (which begins CA's birthday).

IMO this got CA's day off to a bad start.

I'm just recapping what ya'll have already figured out and agreeing that the events of these dates turned up the heat for what was to come.

Click to expand...

Typing this all out and reading with fresh eyes....does seem to tie all the "events" together and give you a feel of how converstations might have went or how things played out.

No wonder George told the police to find out what was going on with her.

NOTE>>>

I forgot about George. Typing out the timeline it is easy to get wrapped up in the Cindy and Casey dynamic.

I did not take in account that George was prolly home on June 2nd when a fight possibly occurred at or around 9 AM

Wanted to post this summary over here to keep track of possible fight dates.... also posted in the "Thrill/Kill thread"

There is a pattern that has emerged....this is not a thrill kill.... "she hated her mother more than she loved that baby" as quoted by Shirley.....

It appears at the end of May, Casey was ramping up her partying. When she would stay out to late in the night 3AM ish... then a fight with Cindy and Casey occurs... Casey stays overnight with "the nanny" (Ric on May 29th and 30th) to keep Caylee from Cindy.

June 1st Casey is gone for most of the day and does not come back until early AM the next day.

June 2nd we have Casey, Cindy and Caylee all home in the morning (fight time??) Cindy says... you need to spend more time with Caylee. Casey say FINE and she takes Caylee the whole day...

June 3rd - Casey is needing momma Cindy for the weekend, decides to play nice, spend the day mostly around the house and the evening. Spending time with Caylee in order to apease her mother and after all she will need her on:

June 4th - Party at Voyage.. HOME at 3 AM ish... Cindy is not happy

June 5th - Comes home early at 7:45 PM spends some time with momma on her birthday - makeup time

June 6th - Out to Fusion.. comes home at 5AM Cindy is REALLY MAD

June 7th - Cindy and Casey have a fight that was possibly the one that JC witnessed possibly at 9AM. Casey says F U and takes a little jog. Cindy says well fine... at tells Casey she and George are going to the beach.
Casey says FINE. I will take Caylee overnite and YOU will not see her.

June 8th - Casey comes home... another possible bickering fight. Casey says FINE, I will show you....

June 9th... Casey stays away overnite at Ric's. Amy is now there and Casey keeps Caylee away from Grandma Cindy. That'll teach her....

June 10th...Casey leaves Ric's with Caylee, stops by Tony's Then heads home at 4:30... time to make up with Cindy, she is going to need her this weekend... doncha know.....So Casey stays close to home.

June 11th...1:30 PM Casey "leaves for work" she takes Caylee. George and Cindy just is fooled that she is taking her to the nannys.. BUT INSTEAD, Casey and Caylee head over to Tony's, goes by the Mall of Millenia at 5:30, heads home by 8:30 ands stays there....keeping the peace with Cindy.

June 12th... 1:30 PM Casey "is at work" she takes Caylee. George and Cindy think she is "working' and Caylee is at the sitters.. but she is with Casey, going to Tony's until 5:44 Momma calls Casey and talks FOR 20 minutes!!
Casey heads home because she needs a sitter for Friday night...
6:13 is promptly arrives home and stays the night

Jun 13th .... 1:07 PM Casey "goes to work" me thinks George watched Caylee that afternoon because he had Friday and Saturdays off. Cindy is reported to have had Caylee that night.
Casey comes home at 3:12 AM. Cindy is furious

June 14th 10:20 AM Casey and Cindy have ANOTHER FIGHT (76 minutes of no cell activity)
Casey says FINE..... Cindy says FINE.. but Caylee is STAYING HERE.
Cool, Casey thinks.. Casey heads over to Tony's and pings in the area at 12:13 PM to 3:38 PM Cindy called Casey at 3:29 and leaves a vm...
Casey heads home.. stays home for the evening...
They have another bickering fight at 4:37 for 56 minutes (no cell activity)

June 15th - Cindy takes Caylee for the day. Casey says fine.. I will go to Tony's. Casey comes home early...
bickering, bickering, Amy needs a place to move, Casey needs a job and money, getting kicked out, no money stealing from Grandma SP, BUSTED!

June 16th... It all comes to a head and Casey takes Caylee away from her mother permenantly. That'll show her.


Pattern
Casey out late. Cindy gets mad. Fight. Take Caylee from Cindy. Makeup. Casey out late. Cindy gets mad. Fight. Take Caylee from Cindy. Makeup.
Casey out late - doesn't have job -stealing. Fight. Take Caylee away from Cindy permenantly.

BondJamesBond said:

I wouldn't sweat Chris S.' account fitting or not. Be nice if it did, but, doesn't really have to, IMHO.



Well put, IBY. :thumb: I kinda view it like a picture that comes into focus pixel by pixel...the more resolution you get...even around the edges...the better view you have of the entire thing. Esp. w.r.t. "fights"....what was witnessed may've just been the tip of the iceburg...but...it also helps us tie the "fights" to what prolly tripped them off...and where there's smoke...there's (eventually) fire. IMHO...this was much more 'bout Cindy & Casey than anything. How did Shirley put it? "I'm afraid she hated her mother more than she loved her daughter"...or something to that effect....hit the nail on the head (I'm afraid).



Here's THE thing, IMHO, Pink. IF we can show that Casey's reaction to "fights" with Cindy :argue: was to TAKE Caylee away (which it appears pretty d@mn clear is what happened 6/7...and maybe 6/2)...then we've actually shown Casey's m.o. and that goes a long way to supporting what happened when Casey took things one step further...taking Caylee away...permanently So...putting in that extra effort to establish w/ clarity some of the things that seemed kinda obvious early on...but with the added day-to-day kinda detail, really makes it come into focus.

Special TY to IBY for pouring so much time & effort into it already.

Click to expand...

Wow, Bond, as usual, you make an excellent point. In the "think bigger" scheme of things, with the spiteful ***** comment in mind, you may have hit precisely upon the truth. I just noticed the above post by ibyounger that led the way, mapping out the timeline to draw this conclusion.

To consider that the buildup of CA's and KC's power struggles and issues about Caylee's care led to the purposeful killing of Caylee by KC is almost impossible for me to fathom but, I admit, is possible.

Act 1 - That said, I'm not 100 percent sure if KC took Caylee to spite CA or if CA made KC take Caylee because she wanted her to take care of her own daughter instead of always relying on CA to watch her. This may be the reason CA feels guilty (if she does) and partially to blame.

My projection of CA's thoughts follow - If only I had let KC go off and do her own thing whenever she pleased and didn't complain about having to watch my granddaughter then things would not have turned out this way. Sure, KC would still be the ungrateful kid she has always been but, at least I'd still have Caylee. Why, oh why could I not "think bigger" and see beyond today and stop trying to fix KC. She's always acted selfishly. What made me think I could change her regarding Caylee? Why was I believing that KC had been working for two years? She never had money and she lived at home and ate the food I provided. What the heck is wrong with me? Now Caylee is gone.

Act II - Back to the same denial. :banghead:

KC told LE that she would have just left Caylee with her parents if she could have. Do you get the minor distinction that I'm making? She is saying that she had no choice but to get rid of Caylee because nobody else was willing to watch her. In KC's mind, it's her mom's fault.

Leads to the same sad ending but shows more of the power struggle between them. Also the spitefullness of KC as in "So you won't help me. I'll show you."

Woe.be.gone said:

KC told LE that she would have just left Caylee with her parents if she could have. Do you get the minor distinction that I'm making? She is saying that she had no choice but to get rid of Caylee because nobody else was willing to watch her. In KC's mind, it's her mom's fault.

Click to expand...

Snipped.

If you are referring to KC's interview with LE at Universal on July 16, what she actually said was that she could have just left Caylee with her parents if she'd wanted to be free of her. I have not quoted verbatim but that is what she meant, which is entirely different from your interpretation here.

Devon said:

Snipped.

If you are referring to KC's interview with LE at Universal on July 16, what she actually said was that she could have just left Caylee with her parents if she'd wanted to be free of her. I have not quoted verbatim but that is what she meant, which is entirely different from your interpretation here.

Click to expand...

Bold mine

Bringing this over here, as I've felt this way from the beginning!



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3700233&postcount=1097

Originally Posted by Devon
Snipped.

If you are referring to KC's interview with LE at Universal on July 16, what she actually said was that she could have just left Caylee with her parents if she'd wanted to be free of her. I have not quoted verbatim but that is what she meant, which is entirely different from your interpretation here.

Click to expand...

reeseeva said:

Bold mine

Bringing this over here, as I've felt this way from the beginning!



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3700233&postcount=1097

Click to expand...

IF Casey left Caylee with her mother, that would show her mother that her mother was right. Then Cindy would know for SURE that Casey was selfish and loved partying and boys more than Caylee. Only a "bad" mother would be able to give up her child.

Casey could not do that.

All of Casey's friends called her "mom" and gave her kudos for her motherly virtues.

As long as Caylee was off with the perfect nanny visiting theme parks, Casey could still get kudos from friends. As far as Cindy knew Casey was doing what Cindy had been telling Casey to do...she was taking care of her *own* child HERSELF. "See mom! I'm taking care of Caylee all by myself! And you said I couldn't do it... HA!"

PLUS...now Casey could wallow in pretending to be Mrs. Lazzaro to her heart's content. No more tantrums, diapers, nights getting cabin fever with Caylee and the rents, being forced to come home at 3 a.m. or having to get up at 6 a.m. to feed Caylee. No more hearing from Cindy that she was selfish and a "bad" mom.

For 31 days Casey got to live the life she had been yearning to live. I think that in the Blockbuster video and Fusian pictures,Casey looks as happy as a pig with brand new mud and a feed pan full of corn.

Woe.be.gone said:

Wow, Bond, as usual, you make an excellent point. In the "think bigger" scheme of things, with the spiteful ***** comment in mind, you may have hit precisely upon the truth. I just noticed the above post by ibyounger that led the way, mapping out the timeline to draw this conclusion.

To consider that the buildup of CA's and KC's power struggles and issues about Caylee's care led to the purposeful killing of Caylee by KC is almost impossible for me to fathom but, I admit, is possible.

Click to expand...

I totally believe Ibyoungr hit the nail on the head with head with her Casey/Cindy fight build-up theory. Phone cell records don't lie.

I can feel Cindy's frustration. When Casey wasn't "working" until 3 or 5 a.m.and deigned to come home, does ANYONE think Casey got off of her cell phone long enough to share any chores, run family errands or relieve Cindy of "mother" duties?

From watching Casey in her jail videos, I can only imagine how she responded to critiquing or chore requests from her mother. I believe the neighbor's description of Casey screaming swear words at her mom outside was accurate.

I've also seen videos of Cindy upset.

The situation and personalities were a volcano building

IMO