Mystery couple murdered in South Carolina, 1976 - #4

Mysterylover said:

Food for Thought!...Correct me IF I'm wrong about this.
I read somewhere our Jane Doe had had a fresh manicure on fingers and toes..
As I have never gotten a manicure while traveling, this made me stop and think.
Who would this person be, or from, that she would think to keep her nails manicured while traveling? rincess:

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mystery lover = in that "day" to me manicures were for the very rich, i didn't even dream of them then.
bluestarzzz

Manicures back in 1976 weren't like the ones we get today. Could it simply be that her finger and toenails had just been painted? How, exactly, could they tell the difference between something she did herself and something that she paid for? With nothing more than a bottle of white fingernail polish, a clear top coat and a steady hand, I can give myself a french manicure....

rmf said:

runr, great news on the press coverage! I spoke to the former Sumter Coroner Mrs Moore recently and she has not been contacted by any members of the press about upcoming stories. I certainly hope she will be included since although she is no longer coroner, she has kept this case alive for many years.

Also wanted to re-post a theory of mine that I posted several threads ago: I have often wondered if this couple were of Cuban descent and were from South Florida and involved in the drug trade. In the early 70s there were an influx of 'boat refugees' into South Florida. It's possible they were Cuban and had been in S. Florida since they were younger. This might also explain the John Doe's dental work, since in latin America good dental work is a sign of wealth. The John Doe could have been trading drugs for dentistry. This murder took place right at the time that the coke trade was amping up. I was recently talking to a veteran police detective I know in a southern state that is transited by I-95. He told me that if you were to stop 10 cars on I-95 on any given day, 3-4 of them will be carrying large quantities of drugs.

Also, I think it's important to remember that Linde Star jewelry was a pretty much American phenomenon in the 60s/70s. In fact, you could walk into any discount store and there would be a little display selling the peices. It was also sold in places like Sears and JC Penney. It's possible the John Doe got the ring from someone else too, it's hard to say. My guess is that it was some kind of gift for a graduation or milestone like that, which was common to do back then.

Last, about Ron Yakimchuk, I believe he and his wife were ruled out a while back by Mrs. Moore due to too many physical dissimilarities between them and the Sumter Does.

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I don't think they look Cuban at all. I'm half Cuban and I just don't see it. IMO they are from the U.S or Canada. (If we take the campground owners word) I think it was said that "Jock" was a teacher at one point. Can anyone confirm this? TIA! :blowkiss:

blusters said:

mystery lover = in that "day" to me manicures were for the very rich,
i didn't even dream of them then.
bluestarzzz

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blusters, I agree! Believe it or not, in 1980 I did not have a professional manicure or pedicure for my wedding day.:...violin:

elliottness said:

Another one of the questions that I've been asking myself is why Jacques and Jane went to Florida then to South Carolina and then went back to Florida before going back to South Carolina. I checked the route to I-95 and one of the places is Daytona Beach, Florida. It sounded like Jacques was an auto racing fan. Could it have been that he went to Daytona's raceway before heading back to SC?

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Just a thought. Where they were found is not that far from the Darlington Raceway in SC. They could have been following the Nascar circuit back then (which raced in Daytona and Darlington), I am sure you can search the schedule for that year. IMO, I would be surprised to find French-Canadians back then following the Nascar circuit though, seems like they would be more interested in the Formula One/Indy cars type circuit if they were of some European descent.

mjhelms said:

Just a thought. Where they were found is not that far from the Darlington Raceway in SC. They could have been following the Nascar circuit back then (which raced in Daytona and Darlington), I am sure you can search the schedule for that year. IMO, I would be surprised to find French-Canadians back then following the Nascar circuit though, seems like they would be more interested in the Formula One/Indy cars type circuit if they were of some European descent.

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Well, the Daytona 500 runs in February of each year. However, the Daytona Raceway has races year-round. It doesn't seem common for French-Canadians to be followers of Nascar, but I don't think it's improbable.

I grew up in the houses behind Darlington Raceway, so I feel like I have to correct some of the info about racing at the Lady in Black in 1976.

We used to have 2 races per year, one in the Spring called the Rebel 400 and one on Labor Day Weekend (September) called the Southern 500. We also used to have a lot of unofficial track testing and races that were not part of NASCAR. This type of racing did not have a lot of "outsider" interest, more of a circuit crowd and very redneck crowd. It might have held some lure as "supremely small town southern USA" for exchange students or college travelers, but it was a rough crowd back then...

I wanted to find out some more information about why John and Jane Doe were not wearing underwear. I always felt that it was very odd. There is a book called "Long Distance Hiking" by Roland Meuser where he writes about his journeys on the Appalachian Trail. He talks about how hikers during the 1970s would frequently go without underclothing and there there were lightweight, synthetic-fabric shorts w/ built in liners that would dry quickly when wet. These were used during the hot months and the months of June, July and August apparently can be pretty hot in South Carolina.

Also, there was a slang term called "going commando" which was used in the 1970s. It meant for people to go without wearing any underwear. Its origin reportedly came from 1974 college campuses during the outgrowth of the Vietnam War.

I'm starting to wonder if John and Jane were a couple and not brother and sister. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone on here say that John might have been or was a teacher? Maybe he was a teacher or he could have been a college professor. This could explain why he was on a vacation during the summer. Teachers have the summer months off and most schools at that time did not go back into session until after Labor Day except for some schools in the southeast which went back in August. Even then, this was too early for John Doe to return to school as a teacher.

What puzzles me is why didn't the school or university have any concern about his whereabouts? Is it possible that John Doe was fired or quit his job? Maybe Jane Doe was one of his students and he was fired for having an inappropriate relationship. Or maybe he was fired for another reason or just handed in his resignation. Who knows?

This is all speculation here, but something tells me that either John or Jane were based out west. Their travels had them passing through Grants Truck Stop which was out west. Also, we have to remember that this was the bicentennial. Maybe they were feeling patriotic about America and decided to travel across the country to visit all 50 states or most of the states in the country. I don't know.

Also, one final question: has anyone ever considered the Freedom Train possibility? I believe this was a train which traveled throughout the United States in 1976 during the bicentennial. It traveled all over the country and perhaps at some point John and Jane took the train.

elliottness said:

I'm starting to wonder if John and Jane were a couple and not brother and sister. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone on here say that John might have been or was a teacher? Maybe he was a teacher or he could have been a college professor. This could explain why he was on a vacation during the summer. Teachers have the summer months off and most schools at that time did not go back into session until after Labor Day except for some schools in the southeast which went back in August. Even then, this was too early for John Doe to return to school as a teacher.

What puzzles me is why didn't the school or university have any concern about his whereabouts? Is it possible that John Doe was fired or quit his job? Maybe Jane Doe was one of his students and he was fired for having an inappropriate relationship. Or maybe he was fired for another reason or just handed in his resignation. Who knows?

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I have never really thought they were brother and sister. I have always leaned more toward the idea that they were a couple or possibly just good friends or traveling companions rather than related. JMO.

Below is a snippet from the article that appeared in the National Post of Canada last April, The Couple Nobody Claimed. It said he had formerly been a schoolteacher. From what he told the guy at the KOA it sounded like he was just trying to figure out what to do with his life since he no longer taught and had given up his career in medicine. That's just my impression though.

"He stated that he believed the man had mentioned he was from Canada; that he had formerly been a schoolteacher and that his father was a medical doctor. He further stated that the man told him that his family had practically disowned him because they had wanted him so badly to be a doctor."

Cambria said:

I have never really thought they were brother and sister. I have always leaned more toward the idea that they were a couple or possibly just good friends or traveling companions rather than related. JMO.

Below is a snippet from the article that appeared in the National Post of Canada last April, The Couple Nobody Claimed. It said he had formerly been a schoolteacher. From what he told the guy at the KOA it sounded like he was just trying to figure out what to do with his life since he no longer taught and had given up his career in medicine. That's just my impression though.

"He stated that he believed the man had mentioned he was from Canada; that he had formerly been a schoolteacher and that his father was a medical doctor. He further stated that the man told him that his family had practically disowned him because they had wanted him so badly to be a doctor."

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Out of all of the possible missing persons listed on here the closest one IMHO is Brian Guberman. He fits the profile more than any other man IMHO. Olive complexion, height is about the same, weight, he was a teacher, from Canada. But he was ruled out and just looking at some of his family photos I get the impression that Brian comes from a very loving family. It's a shame because he seems like a great guy. Note: I do not use past tense because I'll never give up hope that Brian or others like him are dead. JMO.

Cambria said:

I have never really thought they were brother and sister. I have always leaned more toward the idea that they were a couple or possibly just good friends or traveling companions rather than related. JMO.

Below is a snippet from the article that appeared in the National Post of Canada last April, The Couple Nobody Claimed. It said he had formerly been a schoolteacher. From what he told the guy at the KOA it sounded like he was just trying to figure out what to do with his life since he no longer taught and had given up his career in medicine. That's just my impression though.

"He stated that he believed the man had mentioned he was from Canada; that he had formerly been a schoolteacher and that his father was a medical doctor. He further stated that the man told him that his family had practically disowned him because they had wanted him so badly to be a doctor."

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He no longer taught? This could explain why the school wasn't looking for a missing teacher. But I keep coming back to Jane Doe. What about her family? I suspect that she ran away with Jock Doe and perhaps the age difference between them is one of the reasons why Jock's father disowned him. If he was in his late 20s and she in her late teens, I could see that being a bit of an issue even in those days. However, I don't understand how either of their parents or even family members, friends, associates, etc. can go 30+ years without wondering what happened to them. It is really bizarre.

elliottness said:

He no longer taught? This could explain why the school wasn't looking for a missing teacher. But I keep coming back to Jane Doe. What about her family? I suspect that she ran away with Jock Doe and perhaps the age difference between them is one of the reasons why Jock's father disowned him. If he was in his late 20s and she in her late teens, I could see that being a bit of an issue even in those days. However, I don't understand how either of their parents or even family members, friends, associates, etc. can go 30+ years without wondering what happened to them. It is really bizarre.

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That has always been on my mind. If John Doe's father disowned him, I could see why his parents at least were't looking for him. They could have had a big blowup and his Dad just decided to wash his hands of the whole matter. Maybe he was an only child and his Mom and Dad just figured he had left and that was that. But I just can't figure out why no one seemingly is looking for HER! It gets me that no one seems to be looking for either one of them but at least with him there is "sort of" an explanation as to why (if what the KOA guy said was true.) But with her there is just absolutely no info on her other than what she was wearing and she may have carried a large suitcase! Not much to go on. But I am surprised she isn't listed as missing somewhere.

I agree, Brian Guberman was a good match. It was his sister who actually ruled him out though.

Cambria said:

That has always been on my mind. If John Doe's father disowned him, I could see why his parents at least were't looking for him. They could have had a big blowup and his Dad just decided to wash his hands of the whole matter. Maybe he was an only child and his Mom and Dad just figured he had left and that was that. But I just can't figure out why no one seemingly is looking for HER! It gets me that no one seems to be looking for either one of them but at least with him there is "sort of" an explanation as to why (if what the KOA guy said was true.) But with her there is just absolutely no info on her other than what she was wearing and she may have carried a large suitcase! Not much to go on. But I am surprised she isn't listed as missing somewhere.

I agree, Brian Guberman was a good match. It was his sister who actually ruled him out though.

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What about this person? http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1298dffl.html

Has anyone looked at this woman yet? Out of all of the missing women from Doe Network, I think she looks the most like Jane Doe.

I don't understand why there isn't questions from school mates and friends, family, WHY they have never been contacted or been at their class reunions, family holidays, birthdays, funerals etc...:read:

Could the reason that they are not wearing any underwear be because they were abducted suddenly from the campgrounds? I'm thinking they were sleeping or making love when someone(s) confronted them and told them to hurry up and dress and then they were taken and murdered. If this a possibility then I think the KOA guy could have set them up. This case haunts me and I just want them to have their names back. At least they will never be forgotten because I know we will never let that happen.

elliottness said:

What about this person? http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/1298dffl.html

Has anyone looked at this woman yet? Out of all of the missing women from Doe Network, I think she looks the most like Jane Doe.

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Unfortunately, she went missing four days after Jock and Jane Doe were killed.

justthinkin said:

Madea, I got 2 words for you--no moles. Between moles and teeth, we are really stymied.

I did note that several sketches have no moles visible. In blowing up the 2 pics which show decomp on her face, it's hard to tell if the moles are moles or if they're just decomp splotches. The quote "moles" on the left side of her mouth look no different than the 3 decomp splotches to the right of her mouth.

Is it possible that the funeral home turned decomp splotches into beauty marks, and after seeing the victim over and over with the "moles," they just became ingrained as moles in everyone's mind? They certainly weren't put on the earliest sketch released.

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I noticed that no moles were in Antoinette's photo, but it appeared to be professionally made, so I was thinking that sometimes a professional will retouch or paint over their photos and maybe, the moles were airbrushed out.... Too, Antoinette went missing in 1972, five years previously than Jane was found, so the moles could be a result of a pregnancy or something like being in the sun more...IDK.... What struck me as these two being a match, was the eyes nose & lips, and their facial bone structure, mostly the eyes, both beautiful, I must say.... Antoinette was from California, too, if she met "Jock" and traveled around with him, they might've passed through Nebraska, stopped at Grants Pass there......
It should be checked out, since the ME hasn't had many leads .....
JMO



I'll be back....Promise!


Jeremiah 29:11-14

Nyla4 said:

Could the reason that they are not wearing any underwear be because they were abducted suddenly from the campgrounds? I'm thinking they were sleeping or making love when someone(s) confronted them and told them to hurry up and dress and then they were taken and murdered.

If this a possibility then I think the KOA guy could have set them up. This case haunts me and I just want them to have their names back. At least they will never be forgotten because I know we will never let that happen........

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Nyla, You just may be on to something..A very good possibility, imo.

Just maybe someone surprised the couple at the KOA, forced them to quickly put on their shorts and jeans and go with them...of course they could have been shot once at their camp/or in their trailer or in someones' home or taken by surprise at the camp 'showers' late that evening.

Another theory I have is because of Jane's shoes and manicures, that Jock and Jane was/had been visiting someone Sunday.
It doesn't make any sense to me, this couple would be at the KOA for the second time, staying 2 weeks and NOT make friends or visit with new friends there...
we know they were friendly with a workers husband, David B..who else did they meet in the area? My first guess would be L. Henrys son...

I agree, Nyla,
David B. knew the couple was from far away, that Jock had a large roll of money with him and learned a lot about this couple while playing pool, talking and possibly checking the KOA camp records.
I suspect David knew a lot more about the couple than was ever told to the investigator. Of course it's my opinion, the investigator didn't ask many questions, since he NEVER followed-up on what David told him.

Did anyone ever find out where David B. worked and what type of work? Correct me if I'm wrong, his wife was who worked at the KOA..

Jane had a large suitcase which tells me they had a vehicle.
Jock could have been driving a hot, new car. Remember he was possibly a racing fan. Attending races wasn't 'cheap'.

One can only guess what Jock and Jane were camping in, ....They were not dressed like they were 'roughing it', and very clean...imo

This couple had 'something' a man or men wanted bad enough to murder 2 people to get it....:twocents:..We know it wasn't their jewelry...

what could it have been, money, drugs, car, Van, camper, a yacht or boat or information on who was heading-up the illegal activities in that area, or some of it all, and WHO got their possessions and where did they sell them??


My question still remains, why would Le 'cover' for these 'guys' all these years? Was Henry or Batson an informant or something more to Le?..
We know Le already knew Henry...:cop:.. did Henry know something on LE or was involved in something with them as a trucker, that allowed him to walk away from a felony and more?

Another thought is: Ever think, the cover-up was not to cover up who murdered the couple, but instead, who the couple may have been...
related to, working for, as in drugs or working Undercover or what they OWNED.... IF found out, their names would lead back to what they were murdered for ?
so the leads are not followed up and the case goes cold..:Crown:

Has anyone seen this profile? http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2322dfqc.html

Her name is Sylvie Ouimet. 5'4, 124 lbs. 20 y/o from Quebec. Was in an institution and left without her belongings in 1974. In one of the pictures she looks like she has a mole on her left cheek although I could be wrong.

elliottness said:

Has anyone seen this profile? http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2322dfqc.html

Her name is Sylvie Ouimet. 5'4, 124 lbs. 20 y/o from Quebec. Was in an institution and left without her belongings in 1974. In one of the pictures she looks like she has a mole on her left cheek although I could be wrong.

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I believe Sylvie Ouimet was ruled out already, but I can't find it on the thread to verify it. I know her name was brought up before and it's somewhere on one of the previous threads. It's a good find though. I just can't find on here where it says she was officially ruled out. Maybe she wasn't "officially" ruled out but I know she's been considered before.

:waitasec: