Would the Govt response be different in NO.......

txsvicki · Sep 2, 2005

pardilia said:
How on EARTH can you say that?!

You're not there - those people do NOT have FOOD or WATER. The stores are closed - there's no electricity for people to purchase the food or the water they need. They have to get it somehow.

It's not like they're just stealing to steal - they're stealing to *survive*. So many people have lost so much...they're taking what they can - food, water, electronics they can use to sell/trade to get more help for themselves.

The fault is with the government taking well over FOUR DAYS to get help to people. I totally believe there's a race issue going on here. They have no major reason to help those people - there's not financial gain for the government. That's why they're taking their sweet ol' time...I have absolutely no doubt that if the majority of the people involved were porcelain white and filthy rich this would NOT be happening.

A portion of our country is practically the equivalent of a Third World nation right now. No one in power has said "Those people need help - let's get whatever aid to them NOW and we'll figure out the paperwork later." It's been controlled by idiotic bureaucracy. It's disgusting that the need for "law & order" has overulled the need to GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE.

Yes, that's correct. We're sending people in to guard the buildings and prevent the looting and not sending in FOOD, WATER, or CLOTHES.

It's just disgusting...and it really scares me that such a thing can happen in our country. The way things have been going, though, I really shouldn't be surprised.

I agree! The biggest majority of New Orleans are not looting and carrying off televisions and guns , but food or necessitites if even doing it at all. Anyone would resort to this instead of watching their babies lay there and die. They said that thousands of the guard are being sent in and I kept waiting to see if they will each be carrying as much water and they can carry to the victims. Also, many many of these people who did not leave could not leave. It was the end of the month. Social security and disability checks don't come out til the first of the month. There was no money for a tank of gas to get out of town before the storm. What needs to be asked, is why that the gov't didn't repair that levee years ago. This is all a disgrace and the rich, not just white, but the rich would not be treated this way. Poorer white people don't get much better treatment and I just hope that these people can actually get medical treatment once the ones who don't lay there and die of thirst get out and need help with dysentary, infections, etc. Good luck to the ones in texas with medical help.

accordn2me · Sep 2, 2005

Beyond Belief said:
Its difficult to comprehend that the warning to evacuate wasn't taken more seriously. A simple two hour drive and they would have faired so much better. Hopefully, the next time a hurricane threatens an area like this, the buses will come in two days before the hurricane hits and take these people to safe places.

BB,

Your sentiments are well taken but they show your lack of understanding about the situation. As for those who did not evacuate, remember hurricane Ivan, much of NOLA evacuated - 3 elderly people died from that - and what happened - sunny weather, blue skies, not a drop of rain! Evacuation costs can break a family living from check to check.

For many of those you see on TV, no two hour drive is "simple." Even if they did have vehicles, gas would be unaffordable for a one-way 2 hour drive to where?

Had busses, planes or the Amtrack train service been available to these people, where would they have been taken?

Beyond Belief said:
The survivors need to be placed with extended family somewhere in the country as soon as possible. Trying to house them in these large numbers is ridiculous. This country has planes, trains and boats. Spread these people out and do it quickly, before they are out of control. Money will be coming their way that we know for sure.

Not everyone has or is welcome by extended family. I would venture to say the extended families of these victims are struggling to survive on a daily basis just as these were before the storm.

Beyond Belief said:
No one wants them harmed, but then again society doesn't need to suffer any harm from riots, etc. New Orleans is just an example of what can happen when people start making demands. The relief should be there, but because its not, is not a reason to loot stores, thats just the mentally shared by alot of these people. God help those who have found themselves among the lowlife of New Orleans.

God help us all! This is not a localized problem. The reprecussions will be felt nationwide. I see many in small communities in Louisiana and Texas that are opening their doors and providing the victims shelter and the other basic necessities. Many more need to consider doing the same. But like you said, who wants to be found "among the lowlife of New Orleans."

It takes a lot of courage and faith to open your home to a stranger not knowing how long they will be in need. There are no simple answers to this.

DEPUTYDAWG · Sep 2, 2005

Dara said:
So you wait to talk about it and you call our concerns "fingerpointing" but without it, I wonder if we'd be seeing a more feeble response today.

BTW, people always stay behind. They always do. This isn't a surprise. We should have done more.

Yes, guess I have a different personality - get in there, get 'er done, then do the post-analysis. I also didn't say I'm angered at some of the political spinning I may hear; but I would expect it on both Rep and Dem sides, so I'm not even going there. :banghead:

Yes, people stay behind - NEVER to this extreme. And as others have said, in Asia the people worked together to save as many as possible; IMO that's not the case down in NO, for whatever reason. And yes, I agree, more should have been done. But look at the good that has been done. Oh wait, a lot of that isn't covered on the media...

IMO :truce:

Dara · Sep 2, 2005

DEPUTYDAWG said:
Yes, guess I have a different personality - get in there, get 'er done, then do the post-analysis.

So, you're in there getting it done? My discussing this is somehow preventing it from "getting done?" Hell, the whole problem is I want them to get in there and get it done. Ain't happening. And that's something we need to address.

I've given money. I've written several letters, I've posted here. I'm doing what I can.

I also didn't say I'm angered at some of the political spinning I may hear; but I would expect it on both Rep and Dem sides, so I'm not even going there. :banghead:

Don't. No one has to comment on everything someone says. I saw spin. I don't expect spin from anyone. I expect truth. But as you say, different personalities.

Yes, people stay behind - NEVER to this extreme.

Which is why, imo, we need to look at why. When I saw the numbers of those who stayed, I asked myself why. I didn't assume they just wanted to. So, as I've been following this story, I see that some had ill relatives who could not be moved. Upthread, some other reasons have been given. But even if this were an unexpected disaster, more should have been done. They weren't prepared for even a fraction of those who stayed, even the number that could have been predicted.

And as others have said, in Asia the people worked together to save as many as possible; IMO that's not the case down in NO, for whatever reason. And yes, I agree, more should have been done.

That's quite an understatement, imo, but it's something.

But look at the good that has been done. Oh wait, a lot of that isn't covered on the media...

Maybe not the media you watch. CNN has shown relief efforts, but they also showed the people in need, the dead, the dying. They had to, imo, and also imo the media lit the metaphorical firecracker. They showed the pitiful, inadequate response without deeming it so. They didn't have to. When babies die and bodies are stacked up, when people are told to go to a location and then abandoned (no one's in charge there), when police officers are turning in their badges, and the National Guard won't even go into some areas, we know the response was bungled. Severely.

less0305 · Sep 2, 2005

Dark Knight said:
Oh, they'll do everything they can to get their financial port open, but it's obvious from the pictures that the majority of refugees (the PEOPLE) are poor and black. And the black mayor is on record as saying he is, quote, "pissed" about the lack of response from the federal government, among others. He can only do so much. I notice they don't seem to have quite the same issues in the white, casino laden coastal towns in Mississippi that were devastated. Where are THEIR refugees and lawlessness?

Dark Knight....I preface this with "I love ya" and your posts!! But...

Biloxi isn't sitting in a soup bowl of water either. And Biloxi didn't have a superdome and convention center full of 30,000 to 40,000 people or more waiting for assistance. I think things are more difficult by the very nature of the location and geographics of NO versus Biloxi. I don't think it's comparative simply because Biloxi isn't below sea level and the populations are nowhere near the same. NO has about 500,000 people....Biloxi has about 55,000, if I read up on my facts correctly.

I still say race has nothing to do with it. I think logistics and poor planning have everything to do with it.

Ntegrity · Sep 2, 2005

pardilia said:
It's disgusting that the need for "law & order" has overulled the need to GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE.

HELLOOOO?? Are you kidding me? The rescuers are being shot at by armed thugs who are gang members and career criminals. They can't "GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT OF THERE" until law and order is restored.

Marthatex · Sep 2, 2005

They should have MADE them get on those buses and evacuate. It is a certain percentage that is looting and shooting, but they are ruining rescue efforts for everyone else.

My husband heard from other doctors that people are saying part of this was "planned" - they stayed back for the exact reason of wanting to loot and get us much as they could out of this. A new flat screen, etc.

I'm not being prejudiced; I just know they're different, different culture and many are in poverty. I don't blame them for trying to get food and water.

It just seems that New Orleans should know their culture and should have anticipated this. Can you legally make them evacuate? I don't know.

We now have a little Baghdad in Louisiana - good thing the Guard is there.

Linda7NJ · Sep 2, 2005

Marthatex said:
They should have MADE them get on those buses and evacuate. It is a certain percentage that is looting and shooting, but they are ruining rescue efforts for everyone else.

What evacuation buses??? Where were they??

My husband heard from other doctors that people are saying part of this was "planned" - they stayed back for the exact reason of wanting to loot and get us much as they could out of this. A new flat screen, etc.

"People are saying part of this was "planned" WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT?

I'm not being prejudiced; You are I just know they're different, different culture and many are in poverty. I don't blame them for trying to get food and water.

WHAT?:slap:

It just seems that New Orleans should know their culture and should have anticipated this. Can you legally make them evacuate? I don't know.

We now have a little Baghdad in Louisiana - good thing the Guard is there.

THUD! I am simply stunned by you're comments.

less0305 · Sep 2, 2005

I also heard reporters state that buses were sent to public housing areas PRIOR to the hurricane hit to evacuate those people to the Superdome...a lot of people would not get on those buses sent by the city at that time.

I also heard reporters state that they have understood that there were some criminal element in NO that rode out the storm to loot what they could afterwards. I'm sure they didn't think they'd be stuck with the flood waters afterwards that didn't allow them to take advantage and enjoy their loot.

I also heard the Mayor himself say this morning on radio and CNN state that there is a HUGE drug problem in NO and that these druggies are looting the pharmacies and hospitals to get their fix and hord up drugs for sales.

So I don't think Martha was wayyyyyy off in her comments.

Dara · Sep 2, 2005

I think it's helpful to realize (and I'm sure most of us do) that not every single person stayed behind for the same reason. Not everyone wanted to stay behind and loot, though a small percent possibly did. Another percentage might have stayed behind to protect property from looters (can you imagine trying to replace everything you owned without insurance; some might feel the risk was worth it to keep their families from losing everything). Some didn't have the gas or resources to leave. Perhaps those buses that supposedly went to every street missed a few, or couldn't take someone who needed oxygen (that I heard). There are a lot of reasons. We know this happens every time a hurricane approaches. I'd like to know why so many people stayed behind, simply because I believe many didn't have a choice.

tybee204 · Sep 2, 2005

If every person had gotten on a bus WTF would NO have put them? Can you imagine if 100,000 people had been in the Superdome? It would have been truly catastrophic. 20,000 people was beyond what the Superdome could handle.

Ntegrity · Sep 2, 2005

Linda7NJ said:
THUD! I am simply stunned by you're comments.

And I'm stunned by your comments to Marthatex. I absolutely agree with her and don't think it makes her prejudiced to say there are differences in the culture. There are major differences between the culture I've seen on news reports and *my* culture. That's doesn't mean I consider myself better because of it. The differences are simply a fact.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it. :croc:

jannuncutt · Sep 2, 2005

Marthatex said:
They should have MADE them get on those buses and evacuate. It is a certain percentage that is looting and shooting, but they are ruining rescue efforts for everyone else.

My husband heard from other doctors that people are saying part of this was "planned" - they stayed back for the exact reason of wanting to loot and get us much as they could out of this. A new flat screen, etc.

I'm not being prejudiced; I just know they're different, different culture and many are in poverty. I don't blame them for trying to get food and water.

It just seems that New Orleans should know their culture and should have anticipated this. Can you legally make them evacuate? I don't know.

We now have a little Baghdad in Louisiana - good thing the Guard is there.

WHO THE HELL IS THEY! :furious:

less0305 · Sep 2, 2005

I also heard it reported that people who volunteered and took their boat out to rescue people drove up to people in flooded areas and they (volunteers)were told that they (victims) didn't want to go even now....they said, "No, we're just going to stay." So where will those people be in a week?? Trust me, you won't see them on TV saying "We turned down rescue efforts," more like, "How come nobody helped us?" What is the rationale of people who simply WON'T leave?

I feel sorry - I really do - for those that absolutely could not leave, those that have waited at the pick up points for days, those that have waded through water to get to a pick up point, those waiting on the interstates, but there are also those that refused to leave then, and refuse to leave now.

If I had a helicopter, I'd have been flying over dropping water. I'm sure no one is enforcing a no-fly zone there. Why aren't corporate America, the rich and famous, the government doing fly overs with water and food? I have yet to understand why media helicopters are flying constantly, yet there aren't any planes or helicopters flying and dropping off water and food.

LadyLuck · Sep 2, 2005

Just catching up on all the post. I do not agree with the stealing of TVs, radios, etc. But when you have a small baby that is needing food, water, milk, I think anything is ok but killing. One thing that broke my heart was the video of them arresting the older man for stealing a car. In the car there was women, children, & babies. I am sure he did not steal the car to resell. He wanted to get them out of hell. If he took a parked car what is the real harm. If he took it from someone and hurt them that is different. They unloaded the car right there and left the women, children and babies on the street. Put the man in handcuffs. I say on the dry roads if there is a car that runs and has gas the government should take control of the cars, load up women and children and let them drive as far away from NO as they can. I do not think it is a Race factor. But in American most of the poor are Black. We need to remember this when this is over and all work together to change that.

BarnGoddess · Sep 2, 2005

I'll toss out something for this argument about cultural differences and the poor in NO. This, I believe is historical. NO is a very, very old city with a definite background. Let's go back to the War Between the States, slavery, imports, the French influence. The war ends and the slaves are freed, the culture of plantations change. NO is still a major port city, grown from windjammers and pirates of old to container goods coming in and going out, oil and gas, etc. Former slaves sharecrop, work menial jobs in town and slowly adjust to change. Now along comes Huey P Long, well known governor. He puts together a welfare system, builds hospitals and many are cared for at no charge. I know this for a fact, because my dad was in NO in the late twenties and thirties and was a young chemist for the state. I had heard Huey P stories many times. There have always been poor in NO and for the most part they're covered by a welfare system that most states can't comprehend. Many of the blacks there today descend from families who helped found NO. The system has been in place for almost a century now.

So, cultural differences? You bet? Ever visit a voodoo shop to get a gris gris? This is part of NO culture also. Jazz, the Blues, the fabulous food. The people. All culture indiginous to the area. It's different from where you live and where I live. History dictates a lot of your culture. Boston, Charleston, Atlanta, San Francisco, etc. Think of what you know about the cities and you'll find culture different in each one, stemming from history.

I'm not an apologist, nor an advocate, just stating what I know and what we need to keep in mind as we're arguing.

As to the violence and those who are being thwarted in rescue attempts, I wouldn't go in with a truckload of supplies if I was going to be shot and my truck hi-jacked. There are poor but law-abiding folks there who would never see these supplies because some thugs and gangs looted and stole food and water before they could get to a distribution point. So whoever posted that restoring order was not as important as rescue efforts and getting food and water in, need to think about who is not getting it and why.

fran · Sep 2, 2005

I think the main problem is the local, state, and federal government just weren't prepared for the enormity of the situation and the undercurrent of lawlessness that would result from evacuating the city. They weren't prepared for the sheer number of people that didn't or couldn't evacuate. Some of the problem is the communications after the storm as well. There will be a lot of finger pointing later. I'm hearing this morning that further on up the chain of command, they honestly weren't aware of the vast multitude of stranded individuals in different vicinities of the city, and they also didn't know how widespread the lawlessness was.

Even today as thousands of vehicles coming to the rescue are arriving, there are still reporters saying, 'well we're not seeing any difference here.' So you see, no matter where or what they do, it's not enough for the here and now this very minute in such a wide-spread area.

Houston Tx offered to take in 25,000 people only to find out the next day that that is not even half of what was needed. There were 10's of thousands stranded on overpasses and more people being added to that number by the hour as people are still being rescued off rooftops.

A CNN reporter is deep into the city of NO right now and there are still hundreds of people hiding away in offices and buildings, afraid to come out. When they saw a truck go by that was delivering water to a LE office, the people came out from where they were and cried for "WATER!" So you see, there are still even more people to be rescued that the government isn't aware of but seen on tv.

Baton Rouge offered to take in refugees and thought they were prepared. But a doctor from there was just on and he said there are so many people with need of medical assistance they are overwhelmed.

IMO, this is such an enormous disaster, that we on the outside need to stop and wait until all is said and done. We need to learn from this horrible experience and make sure that this doesn't happen again and that all the elements impeding rescue of those really needing to be helped are addressed.

Sure we've heard all the warm fuzzy stories about disasters in other countries. We've heard how many people worked on the rescue, how many helped their 'fellow man,' yadda,yadda, yadda. That's happening here as well, we're just not focusing on that but what is wrong, not what is right. Plus, we don't know that our media was allowed unfettered access in other countries. We don't know what went on in all areas of other countries that have been affected by disasters.

You can't always believe, at first blush, everything being reported on tv either. For instance, I've just been watching on FOX where there are fires in the business district and the reporter has been going over and over how the fire dept is just standing there and watching it burn without fighting the fire because of no water pressure. Yet, just now they showed an airiel view where there are fire fighters on roofs with hoses pointed at the burning building. You see, the reporter couldn't see the people, from his view point, fighting the fire so he reported inaccurately.

JMHO
fran

concernedperson · Sep 2, 2005

Barbara Starr w/ CNN is with General Honore in downtown NO and said 1000 troops on the way to the convention center w/ supplies. No pics yet. He is standing at a street corner directing them.....worried that people would think this is an arrest he is ordering them to have their weapons face down.

Should be an interesting scene. Hope it goes well.

BarnGoddess · Sep 2, 2005

fran said:
I think the main problem is the local, state, and federal government just weren't prepared for the enormity of the situation and the undercurrent of lawlessness that would result from evacuating the city. They weren't prepared for the sheer number of people that didn't or couldn't evacuate. Some of the problem is the communications after the storm as well. There will be a lot of finger pointing later. I'm hearing this morning that further on up the chain of command, they honestly weren't aware of the vast multitude of stranded individuals in different vicinities of the city, and they also didn't know how widespread the lawlessness was.

Even today as thousands of vehicles coming to the rescue are arriving, there are still reporters saying, 'well we're not seeing any difference here.' So you see, no matter where or what they do, it's not enough for the here and now this very minute in such a wide-spread area.

Houston Tx offered to take in 25,000 people only to find out the next day that that is not even half of what was needed. There were 10's of thousands stranded on overpasses and more people being added to that number by the hour as people are still being rescued off rooftops.

A CNN reporter is deep into the city of NO right now and there are still hundreds of people hiding away in offices and buildings, afraid to come out. When they saw a truck go by that was delivering water to a LE office, the people came out from where they were and cried for "WATER!" So you see, there are still even more people to be rescued that the government isn't aware of but seen on tv.

Baton Rouge offered to take in refugees and thought they were prepared. But a doctor from there was just on and he said there are so many people with need of medical assistance they are overwhelmed.

IMO, this is such an enormous disaster, that we on the outside need to stop and wait until all is said and done. We need to learn from this horrible experience and make sure that this doesn't happen again and that all the elements impeding rescue of those really needing to be helped are addressed.

Sure we've heard all the warm fuzzy stories about disasters in other countries. We've heard how many people worked on the rescue, how many helped their 'fellow man,' yadda,yadda, yadda. That's happening here as well, we're just not focusing on that but what is wrong, not what is right. Plus, we don't know that our media was allowed unfettered access in other countries. We don't know what went on in all areas of other countries that have been affected by disasters.

You can't always believe, at first blush, everything being reported on tv either. For instance, I've just been watching on FOX where there are fires in the business district and the reporter has been going over and over how the fire dept is just standing there and watching it burn without fighting the fire because of no water pressure. Yet, just now they showed an airiel view where there are fire fighters on roofs with hoses pointed at the burning building. You see, the reporter couldn't see the people, from his view point, fighting the fire so he reported inaccurately.

JMHO
fran

Fran, what a good post. I'm bumping it for everyone to read again. As you said things aren't always as they seem.

Marthatex · Sep 2, 2005

Ntegrity said:
And I'm stunned by your comments to Marthatex. I absolutely agree with her and don't think it makes her prejudiced to say there are differences in the culture. There are major differences between the culture I've seen on news reports and *my* culture. That's doesn't mean I consider myself better because of it. The differences are simply a fact.

So put that in your pipe and smoke it. :croc:

Look. I lived in Baton Rouge, and the blacks lived right down the street from me in shacks. So I've LIVED IT.
I thought I was trying to say I try very hard not to be prejudiced of a group. But I fully understand the culture differences.

I am a Southern Lady, but a rare old-tyme democrat. I am just trying to repeat what I'm hearing about looters and so forth. I don't mean to offend anyone; I'm calling it like it is. Like a reporter.

But as always happens to me, when I try to be honest, things get "snitty" and I get in tears and just don't want to post anymore. My blood pressure is high enough already. If y'all don't want reporting and what they're saying in the hosptials here, fine. I'll shut up.

Thank you, Ntegrity!

(why in the world should we be fighting and picking on each other when we're just trying to figure out a horrible tragedy. Give me a break)

Would the Govt response be different in NO.......

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