RULED OUT: Have we found Anna? Possible match to NamUs case UP 9597 - *NO MATCH*

A quick update: I spoke today to the case manager at the SMC Coroner Office and there are no results yet. The coroner contacted the DOJ last week and are still waiting for results. They are staying on top of this and will let the family know as soon as they have something to report. No ETA for those results though - we must stay patient.

Thank you Doogie. I'm a little confused on why the ME would not be in direct contact with the private lab and why that would be going through the DOJ.

We have a possible match expert in the UID forum, who happens to be from CA; CarlK90245. He has quite a bit of experience with working with ME's for both possible matches and with doing some artwork for recons when and where morgue photo's can't be posted. He's made a few matches himself too.

I am going to post the question to him in the general discussion forum why the DOJ would be the main contact with a private lab versus the county ME, as it makes no sense to me. Hopefully he knows, or he can find out when he next has a case to discuss with an ME in CA.

Please don't be offended by that Doogie. I'm going to ask Carl because this possible match stuff is new/newer to us here in Anna's forum, and I don't have a lot of experience with possible matches in CA, where I know CarlK does. I trust him implicitly.

I'll be back to link the general discussion thread again shortly, so members and guests following this thread won't have to go back pages to find it.


ETA: Link to the general discussion thread for this UID:

CA CA - San Gregorio - Child, 5-7, March 2006 -on beach btwn San Gregorio/Pomponio Beach - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Teeth are a useful source of DNA and can often survive extreme environmental conditions.

Results demonstrate that there is sufficient quantity of DNA in the crown body, root body, and root tip to support DNA extraction.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12762534

The above is one reason I think it would be beneficial to know from the coroner exactly which baby teeth existed. It appears perhaps only adult teeth were charted, so we don't know which baby teeth existed or not.

Additionally an isotope analysis can be done on baby teeth to determine where the childs mother resided during pregnancy. This is possible because the baby teeth develope inutero. Info regarding the isotope analysis on baby teeth can be seen in the attached post for a different case.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Identified! IL-"Dupage Johnny Doe" age 3-5 - Oct. 2005 - ATCEL


If DNA is going to be delayed perhaps the possibility of extraction by way of existing teeth, which we can not confirm is only one tooth until someone asks/confirms such info with the coroner,. Or perhaps inquire about the possibility of an isotope analysis being performed for additional information to help identify this UID or determine if the area the mother resided while pregnant matches up to where Annasmom resided while pregnant with Anna.

We should not be satisfied until a positive rule in or rule out can be made by legitimate scientific means.

Hearing about developments in the Etan Patz case today, and it just made me think about Anna...Etan's parents have been on this long journey too. My heart goes out to all of you as you keep searching.

I've been following the wait to hear the results of a DNA match and not saying a whole lot lol. I find it frustrating, to wait, to not hear.

I have to say Annasmom and Annasbro that I already admired you for your grace and patience in the search for Anna. But after this my admiration increases. Waiting to hear from this, is frustrating. But it has not gone on for as long as you have waited to hear. And I cannot imagine how many times you have gone through similar waits.

I know it will come eventually. But I have to say that it has gone beyond wanting to hear it is positive or negative now. Now the importance is just to hear something, anything. Just to know.

If I am this frustrated now, I just cannot imagine how you have gotten past similar waits.

mysteriew said:

I've been following the wait to hear the results of a DNA match and not saying a whole lot lol. I find it frustrating, to wait, to not hear.

I have to say Annasmom and Annasbro that I already admired you for your grace and patience in the search for Anna. But after this my admiration increases. Waiting to hear from this, is frustrating. But it has not gone on for as long as you have waited to hear. And I cannot imagine how many times you have gone through similar waits.

I know it will come eventually. But I have to say that it has gone beyond wanting to hear it is positive or negative now. Now the importance is just to hear something, anything. Just to know.

If I am this frustrated now, I just cannot imagine how you have gotten past similar waits.

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~ It does take time and am glad of that in a way because when it comes in in comes in, in the long run it really isn't that long await considering what entails the results. I really honestly don't believe there will be a match anyway.

It could be a long wait. There is another mother who posts here at WS, in the Grateful Doe thread/forum and her wait on DNA is at about 15 months. In that case, a dental rule out was made, however the coroner agreed to a dna test because sometimes dentals provide false rule outs.

We'd don't see it often, but we have seen a few cases here at WS where dentals initially officially ruled a person out and years and years (5-10 yrs) later DNA proved a match.

Because the occasional errors with dental rule outs, I am happy we will have a dna answer either way. I'm much more confident with the accuracy of DNA than I am dentals, across the board. And no, I am not trying to imply the long shot was an error.... it's just a science which is not as accurate as DNA.

We keep waiting and we'll keep searching in the mean time.

There are always more rule out's than rule in's.

raying: the wait is not long.

Dr. Doogie said:

A quick update: I spoke today to the case manager at the SMC Coroner Office and there are no results yet. The coroner contacted the DOJ last week and are still waiting for results. They are staying on top of this and will let the family know as soon as they have something to report. No ETA for those results though - we must stay patient.

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It's been about 6 weeks since you last contacted the case manager, Dr. Doogie. Any idea on when you might make contact next for a status update? Not just to check on the dna status, if any difficulties are present in obtaining a viable strand for the UID, but also to ask for more detailed information on the baby teeth which exist? Since it appears the dentals added for this UID were only entered for permanent adult teeth?

tia

Gah - saw a new post under this topic and was hoping for some news. I'm sure my anticipation does not compare to Annamom. Prayers for the family.

lease:

still waiting for answers as well

We're approaching or are at the 5 month mark.

While we are waiting, I've given the following a lot of thought. While I am hoping for and expecting an official rule out, I really think it is very possible these remains belong to a child who was never reported missing. It's not like the metro SF area is all that small and Anna's brother did at one time say the area where they lived was sometimes used as a dumping ground being a bit away from the city. That a few bodies had been dumped in the immediate vicinity or along Purisima (sp?) Creek Rd. I think it is most likely the remains belong to a child from the SF or Oakland area who was never reported missing yet dumped a "few" miles away.... as sad as that may be.

But still very much want that official answer.

i know 5 months is a long time to wait i hope its not going to be another 5 more months

Cubby said:

We're approaching or are at the 5 month mark.

While we are waiting, I've given the following a lot of thought. While I am hoping for and expecting an official rule out, I really think it is very possible these remains belong to a child who was never reported missing. It's not like the metro SF area is all that small and Anna's brother did at one time say the area where they lived was sometimes used as a dumping ground being a bit away from the city. That a few bodies had been dumped in the immediate vicinity or along Purisima (sp?) Creek Rd. I think it is most likely the remains belong to a child from the SF or Oakland area who was never reported missing yet dumped a "few" miles away.... as sad as that may be.

But still very much want that official answer.

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I am also very worried about that. Then there will be two cases forever in the books. Why do we have so many UIDs? Because most of those people were never even reported missing to begin with. I really hope we can rule out this case just so her loved ones can have some peace.

I have placed another call to the Coroner's office, but have not yet received a reply. The caseworker will not be in until Sunday and I will try again on Monday. I suspect that there is no news, since they would have contacted Annasmom by now if something had been found. However, by gently prodding them, they may be able to expidite the outside lab's pace.

I need to approach this cautiously - I want to keep the Coroner's office as allies, not as someone who sees us as "a pest". The testing is out of their hands and pressuring them will only serve to hurt our efforts.

I know that this wait is excrutiating, but I truely believe that we need to be judicious and wise in our dealings with LE and the Coroner.

Dr. Doogie. I've worked the UID forum for years. I promise a call or email every few months is not going to make you or anyone who tries to match the missing and unidentified appear as "a pest".

I don't know that you have worked directly with any other coroners offices since you've been here at WS. I promise, most are night and day when it comes to LE working on cold cases. I've never ever had a coroner get upset. In fact, most will talk your ear off and keep you on the phone for at least 15 minutes.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I think you are being over cautious here. ME/coroners offices do not need the same kind of handling LE working cold cases does. Their time constraints are completely different.

We were told by more than one party this possible match was going to be expedited. I expect it to be expedited with the private lab as well. It should have the same priority and shouldn't be sitting on a shelf somewhere collecting dust. It's not like Anna's mom is some twenty or thirty something year old mom. She is getting older and has a right to an answer. Or a right to have some basic information on what might be causing delays.

Additionally, I do not think it is in the least bit out of line to inquire about additional information on the dentals as suggested previously.

Again, not trying to be rude. You need to trust me Doogie. I wouldn't be pushing for you to do something if I felt it would cause any harm or delays to this investigation.

I'm offering the unsolicited advise solely on my experience working several unidentified cases and having spoken with at least a half dozen coroners. Emailed many more.....

Thank you.

Cubby

Additionally, we do not know that the private lab is even aware a family is waiting. Does the private lab know a request was made by LE to the county coroners office to expedite the case?

All of these questions regarding the dentals, if the private lab is aware of the expedite request, can be done tactfully and in a manner which will not be viewed offensively or pesty.

My concern here is the expedite request never made it from the SM coroners office to the private lab, and I would like to have confirmation it has.

I think the added questions regarding the presence and condition of any baby/desiduous teeth would be extremely helpful here. There may be information in those desiduous teeth, should they exist, which could satisfy a rule out for us, which may not meet the legal or scientific criteria for an official rule out because there are no dentals on file for Anna.

Were any desidous teeth lost ante mortem? Are they able to determine post mortem or ante mortem tooth loss in desiduous teeth? Of course the possibility exists only the adult tooth survived and all the baby teeth were lost post mortem.

I'd personally like to see the dentals on the NamUs case file updated to include all known information on the desiduous teeth. An update to the NamUs case file on dentals would serve the purpose of the coroner only needing to answer that question once, rather than multiple calls or multiple emails......

I hope you are seriously considering adding/asking these questions Dr. Doogie. They are reasonable questions, which could not only help in this case, but can also be added to the general discussion thread to help assist other sleuths when making comparisons to other missing children.

thank you,

The pest, lol! jk jk.

I spoke with Dr. Doogie. He agreed we should be presenting the dental questions as well as checking on getting confirmation the expedite request made it to the private lab.

I'm going to be putting together a list of those questions and sending them to Dr. Doogie, since he still has limited computer access. Which means he has to go to the library to get my list of questions prior to making contact with the coroner. He may not get to it Monday as he originally posted, but will do so this week.

Annasmom, did give me permission to contact the coroner myself, but I don't want to do that as the rule of thumb here at WS has always been one main contact person per case, so we at WS don't appear to be unorganized not knowing what the other is doing. I could, if another possible match arose, but thus far nothing has. I appreciate the permission and trust, but I really want to make sure we maintain the credibility we have worked so hard for here at WS. Not just with Anna's case, but with WS in it's entirety.

That said, I will be getting that list to Dr. Doogie this afternoon. It will compromise questions already posted within this thread.

Reviewing again before I send the list of questions to Dr. Doogie.

Here is the link to the dental information for NamUs case #9597, SM ME case number 06-0797:

https://identifyus.org/cases/9597

Tooth number 9 is listed as P for post mortem loss. Can it be determined if this lost tooth was a primary/adult tooth or baby/desiduous tooth?

Teeth numbers 10,11,12,13,15 and 16 are listed as O, other, and the remarks list an explanation as O= unerupted or not developed. We assume this comment refers to adult teeth. Is that correct?

What information is available regarding the baby/desiduous teeth present? Was there any restorations to the baby teeth or any possible identifying information such as crooked, erupted in the wrong area (too far forward or back), discolored, milk rot, untreated caries etc.

Can the dentals be updated at NamUs to include known information on baby/desiduous teeth? Or can that information be sent to us so we can add it to the thread set up for this doe so the group of online volunteers who work to match the missing and unidentified will have this information, thus eliminating repeated inquiries for such information as it exists?


The above is what I will be sending to Dr. Doogie with regards to the questions on the dentals.

maybe they are having a harder time obtaning dna and its taking a little longer

smile22 said:

maybe they are having a harder time obtaning dna and its taking a little longer

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It could be a number of things. Backlog, difficulty obtaining a viable sample, the expedite request never made it from the CA-DOJ to the private lab. We just don't know. These are some of the questions Dr. Doogie will be inquiring about when he makes contact with the case manager at the SMME.