AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - # 8

Hi...this is really my opinion only and I hope I dont ruffle any feathers or sound prejudice etc as basically here in australia we dont know what is really going on with mexicans, drugs, illegal immigrants etc expect that we know there is certainly some sort of problem.

After being on websleuths for a number of years I tend to get cynical when families start sprouting about someone being kidnapped or abducted by the lurking stranger as the majority of the time it does end up being a cover up for something that happened within the family.

HOWEVER I am wondering if she was indeed kidnapped and it has something to do with payback, gangs, drugs, illegal immigrants etc etc after reading about the uncle.

It is a terrible crime to abduct a child. For terrible reasons. How baffling a case is this.
That said, I can't see how anyone could have abducted her without leaving obvious signs of sudden drama. The intense LE effort seems to be stymied.
Further, dissecting the events surrounding the incident does not seem to be producing much help towards finding Isobel.

Are criminals getting smarter?

Oh, and also I have a question-if it has been brought up before-that is, the nature of the question, I apologize.

Is there a casino in town or somewhere near? Are there legal gambling establishments nearby?

TIA
moo

Bluesky#1 said:

Regarding an interview with the parents; would Isabel's parents be able answer questions LE won't answer? They'd likely only repeat "we can't comment on that, we can't answer that" through most of it.

By now I hope someone's noticed a difference in the kidnapper(s) routine and calls it in.

If the kidnappers escaped in a car or van and stopped at a truck stop, maybe they took Isabel inside to eat and use the bathroom so I hope Isabel's picture has been posted in all the truck stops along the major highways.

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As far as the parents appearing, I would expect them to talk about Isabel, rather than any case details. What kind of girl was she, what was she interested in, how she was in school, etc. Things that would humanize Isabel even more. Stuff like that keeps Isabel in the news. Also, perhaps talking about the efforts going on to help find Isabel. For instance there was a face painting going on at the command center to raise money, there was a little concert, they have t-shirts and flyers etc. I think all of this coming from the parents, the parents being actively involved in getting the community involved goes a long way.

I know there are things that aren't great about speaking to the media. Its just my opinion that those things are nothing compared to the ability to keep Isabel in the news.

He also apparently has charges from Florida, IIRC.

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Ties to the FL Keys. Another major route of illegal drug entry into the US. Douglas is an infamous doozy of an entry point. I have familial roots there and spent many, MANY summers there.

Starry Night said:

Oh, and also I have a question-if it has been brought up before-that is, the nature of the question, I apologize.

Is there a casino in town or somewhere near? Are there legal gambling establishments nearby?

TIA
moo

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There are a two casinos on reservation lands South of town. About a 40 minute drive (with normal traffic)... Pasqua Yaqui and Tohono O'odham. Maybe there's a third... I don't gamble, so don't pay any attention.

liz b. said:

That's interesting,about the neighbor's comment.I watched the video of her again. She was saying that,in her opinion, Isabel may have felt comfortable going with the men she heard. Because,she said, she did not hear Isabel scream, or yell,or any sounds of a female child's voice ...

She also said that she could not tell if they were speaking English or Spanish...MOO

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Not true. I clipped the following discussion from NG's transcript.

<snipped>
GRACE: And Ms. Stardevant, you coming forward and speaking, answering questions, means so much to literally millions of people that are praying for Isabel`s safe return.

I know that you state you heard dogs barking and male voices that you believe to have been English-speaking around 6:30 AM that morning. Could you show me behind you where you were and tell me what you heard?

“I remember hearing English, I think. You know, again, I wasn`t paying a lot of attention. But it didn`t seem like it was a language that I wouldn`t understand, that I didn`t understand”.

“I really do think it was English voices.”

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/26/ng.01.html


Ms. Stardevant said she heard Isabel’s parents say hello to her so if Sergio and the uncle have an accent, Alicia should be able to tell whether the male voice she heard at 6:30 am belongs to Sergio.

Ms. Stardevant should also know whether the males were walking through the alley (if so there voices would fade) or if they were standing directly outside Isabel’s window.

Bluesky#1 said:

Not true. I clipped the following discussion from NG's transcript.

<snipped>
GRACE: And Ms. Stardevant, you coming forward and speaking, answering questions, means so much to literally millions of people that are praying for Isabel`s safe return.

I know that you state you heard dogs barking and male voices that you believe to have been English-speaking around 6:30 AM that morning. Could you show me behind you where you were and tell me what you heard?

“I remember hearing English, I think. You know, again, I wasn`t paying a lot of attention. But it didn`t seem like it was a language that I wouldn`t understand, that I didn`t understand”.

“I really do think it was English voices.”

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/26/ng.01.html


Ms. Stardevant said she heard Isabel’s parents say hello to her so if Sergio and the uncle have an accent, Alicia should be able to tell whether the male voice she heard at 6:30 am belongs to Sergio.

Ms. Stardevant should also know whether the males were walking through the alley (if so there voices would fade) or if they were standing directly outside Isabel’s window.

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I saw a news report with her saying she did not know if they were speaking English or Spanish.

Here is how Ms. Stardevant described Isabel&#8217;s bedroom window to NG.

NG asked the witness to point to Isabel's bedroom window for the viewers and confirm it was Isabel's and she did. An on-screen camera captured Isabel's window and I believe I saw a light-colored sheer curtain. I'll find and post the video but since the curtains were hung in a girl's bedroom, it makes sense they were light-colored and light-colored curtains are see through.

<snipped>

And that`s the window -- yes?

GRACE: Did the window typically have a screen on it?

STARDEVANT: Yes, it did. And that morning, when I looked over the wall, I wasn`t paying attention to where the screen was, but I know that the window itself was completely open. There was no screen and -- but I`m not sure where the screen was when I looked over the wall.

STARDEVANT: Yes. Yes. And it`s a very big window. And it was wide open at 8:00 AM. When I came out, when I discovered that she was missing and I looked over the wall, it was wide open.

GRACE: Alicia, is it typically open? Or do they use air- conditioning?

STARDEVANT: No, it`s -- I`ve never seen it open ever. So it was a little unusual.

GRACE: Never? So I noticed that they don`t have burglar bars. Do you know if they have an alarm in the house? Have you ever heard it set off accidentally?

STARDEVANT: I`ve never heard an alarm. I don`t believe that they have an alarm, but I`m not sure if they do.

Ms. Stardevant, back to that window. When you saw it, do you recall whether the curtains had been pulled away, or were they as they are right now?

STARDEVANT: They were to the side. I could see into her bedroom when I looked over the wall.GRACE: You could see directly into her bedroom?

STARDEVANT: Yes, I could.

STARDEVANT: What could you see in her bedroom?

GRACE: Well, I wasn`t trying to be very nosy. I didn`t want to pry into anyone`s business, so I didn`t really take a very hard look. I just remember seeing her bed. I think I saw a dresser. Nothing looked like it was -- like there was a huge scene that went on there. It looked normal.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/26/ng.01.html

Here is the discussion I was referring to between NG and Lt. Fabian Pacheco, who&#8217;s the Executive Officer for Tucson Police Department regarding polygraphs.

Since the uncle is a close relative and 2 LE officers said on Nancy Grace that &#8220;polygraphs is a standard operating procedure, not only the parents but the uncle too must have agreed to take one and passed.

<snipped>
GRACE: Lieutenant, I know this must be a really hard job for you and your men and women.

Lieutenant, a couple of questions. And I think I know what your answer is going to be. Have any polygraphs been administered?

PACHECO: Well, again, we`re a pretty large agency with a lot of resources. So in these types of investigations, those are kind of standard practice without telling you one way or another to not hurt the investigation, I can assure you that we`ve done everything possible up to this point. And again that`s part of the thing &#8211;

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/26/ng.01.html

I don't understand the suspicion towards the uncle. Even if he was involved in some shady business, why would they want to harm his niece? It doesn't make any sense to me.

The other thing I don't get is LE releasing the surveillance video of the 5 individuals and asking the 5 to come forward. My understanding was to ask them about the 6th. person in the video. Why would they not go out in public asking the 6th. person to identify themself like they did for the 5. Am I missing something? :waitasec:

One last point I wanted to make was regarding a child being snatched from their bedroom versus off the street. I would love to know how a criminal profiler would characterize such an individual. What makes a perp so brazen to risk going inside the home versus snatching the child at a playground or outside their home, etc? I am going to venture to guess that perhaps the perp does not have a vehicle (??)

Thoughts?

SmoothOperator said:

Below is the statements from todays presser that were mentioned about the elusive mystery man on the corner lot that the 5 witnesses walked past around 1:30am the morning of the abduction.. IMO we learned some things for certain in they're admitting there is a 6th person( as I know some were of the mind set that it was just shadows&lights).. That LE does NOT know who the 6th individual is.. And replied yes to a reporter asking does LE "want to know" who the 6th individual is.. Along with his stating that it is the 6th individual that is part of the entire reason they are anxious to speak with the 5 people walking past him..

Here's my portion of notes from the presser specifically regarding the "6th individual" seen on the video..

Notes from presser 4/29-
-The 6th individual is an additional and separate issue.
That's part of the reason we wanted to speak to these 5 individuals..

-Do u know who that 6th unidentified person is?(reporter asks)
No we do not(LE answers)

- Do u want to know who that person is?(reporter asks)
(LE answers)Yes, that's another reason we wanted to talk to these 5 individuals to see did they come in contact with this person or any other person for that matter.. I do not want to get too much into who this mysterious person is.. There are a lot of people who are walking in this area, especially at that specific time with the particular bars right around there..some park a distance away to avoid us(as in LE)



____________________...
Posting via mobile as well as via tablet so plz forgive all typos.. Btwn the sucky touch keyboard and the obsessive auto-correct it's a big ol' mess :crazy:

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I didn't know this thanks for posting. I missed the presser yesterday. Also i don't understand what LE means by this "The 6th individual is an additional and separate issue". Additional but yet separate issue?

Anita Richman said:

Possibly that's the only personal photograph that he has, and it means something to him. I have a friend who has a giant, blurry, out of focus picture of a friend that she took before they died. It's the only picture SHE ever took of them, so it's precious to her. (Even though there are other, better photos available to her.)

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What photo is everyone talking about? A facebook pic??

Song for Isabel Celis, written and recorded by Tucsonans
http://www.kvoa.com/news/song-for-i...e=KVOA.com&utm_medium=twitter#!prettyPhoto/0/

Pensfan said:

Does this mean LE took the scent dog inside to try to track Isabel walking out of her home? On the window frame?

I was wondering if the FBI had something with the scent of the RSO neighbor and the dog hit on that scent in her house.

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I don't recall the types of dogs LE used, but if they were going to give the dogs a scent to use, IMO, it would be Isa's.

I also feel LE would have to get a search warrant to obtain the scent of ANY RSO, for the dogs to track. JMO

~n/t~ said:

I don't understand the suspicion towards the uncle. Even if he was involved in some shady business, why would they want to harm his niece? It doesn't make any sense to me.

The other thing I don't get is LE releasing the surveillance video of the 5 individuals and asking the 5 to come forward. My understanding was to ask them about the 6th. person in the video. Why would they not go out in public asking the 6th. person to identify themself like they did for the 5. Am I missing something? :waitasec:

One last point I wanted to make was regarding a child being snatched from their bedroom versus off the street. I would love to know how a criminal profiler would characterize such an individual. What makes a perp so brazen to risk going inside the home versus snatching the child at a playground or outside their home, etc? I am going to venture to guess that perhaps the perp does not have a vehicle (??)

Thoughts?

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Any suspicion that builds up in me of the parents or the uncle actually have nothing to do with what they have done, said, or whatever. For me at least, my suspicion comes from what LE says and doesn't say. I think by LE not confirming or denying that the uncle was in the house, leaves it open that he was in the house, and just being at the scene of the crime will bring suspicion. On top of the fact that LE hasn't cleared anyone. Honestly though, nothing the parents or the uncle have done or said raises any suspicion in me. It solely comes from LE - which is why I have said it is a HUGE disservice to the family if they are innocent.


As far as the tape...the only thing that really sticks with me about that is that LE knows who the 6th person is, or at least they have an idea. They see them in another video, or somewhere else in that video that gives them a good idea. They perhaps just want to see if that matches up with 5.

And as for the room - that is a good point. Some of you know more cases than I do - but in cases where kids who have been snatched from their homes don't they know the perp in some way? Or at least the perp has been watching them for some time. They are interested in that specific kid, not someone just off the street.

txjustice said:

This is only my second post! But I think this is an excellent idea. I think probably this or maybe the parents know or suspect something but are afraid to say. Maybe they have their suspicions about someone they know. I do think there are oddities in the way the parents have acted, but not sure if I see guilt.

Also, I found it odd in a video posted a while back where the one of the brothers says "she was just a perfect little girl playing at the park". This seems a strange thing for a boy to say about his little sister...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-tu...ce-videos-hold/story?id=16210060#.T53VVbPY_NU

here's the link to the video.

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I thought so too, at first. But when I went back and watched that video the 2nd time, I believe the reporter identified both boys as friends of Isa's brothers. I don't believe the one speaking was her brother, but I could be wrong.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-tu...ce-videos-hold/story?id=16210060#.T56ILrNSSb5

These two guys have my hinker dinker going. The reason why is when media is video taping, the one gets up and walks towards the other guy almost as hiding behind him for security (at a house in video). JMO Then when you see them at the Celis house the boy crosses his arms. Why would he be doing that body language if they were allowed in the home. You think they would have their arm open and using gestures as to explain themselves. JMO

Boodles said:

I can't think of any reason not to speak to the media. For example:

"Please help us find Isa. I put her to bed at xxpm Friday night and she was wearing xxxxxxx. When xxxx awoke at 8AM Saturday morning, Isa was not in her room. We <did/did not> not hear any disturbances during the night. She has <identifying characteristics of ISA> and can speak <both English and Spanish?>. She is <shy and does not reach out to strangers easily/outgoing and easy around strangers>.....please be on the lookout for her and pass the word to all you know.' etc. etc., etc. etc.

Why on earth would they be keeping out of the media? I can't think of any reason unless there is something they are hiding. And if they are hiding something, I hope they have shared whatever it is with LE.

There is something very strange about this family, IMO.

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I can think of several reasons. They may be very private people and uncomfortable with answering dumb questions from reporters. And the info that the public needs to know, her description and the clothes she was wearing has already been put out by LE, no need to repeat it from the parents. They could go on camera every day and plead for her safe return, but I can't think of one abductor who ever released a child or brought them home because of a parent's tearful plea in the media, can you? And sadly, statistics say that by the time the parents speak out, it's too late, anyway, the child is already dead within a few hours after they were kidnapped.
Respectfully, it does not have to mean they're hiding something... although they could be... but there is no rule that says they have to speak out. And in following so many of these cases, I have come to believe that the less they say in public the better. Look how much criticism the parents have got so far just from that one appearance. Anything they say to the media is going to be sliced and diced to kingdom come, but it won't help find this little girl.

TxLady2 said:

I can think of several reasons. They may be very private people and uncomfortable with answering dumb questions from reporters. And the info that the public needs to know, her description and the clothes she was wearing has already been put out by LE, no need to repeat it from the parents. They could go on camera every day and plead for her safe return, but I can't think of one abductor who ever released a child or brought them home because of a parent's tearful plea in the media, can you? And sadly, statistics say that by the time the parents speak out, it's too late, anyway, the child is already dead within a few hours after they were kidnapped.
Respectfully, it does not have to mean they're hiding something... although they could be... but there is no rule that says they have to speak out. And in following so many of these cases, I have come to believe that the less they say in public the better. Look how much criticism the parents have got so far just from that one appearance. Anything they say to the media is going to be sliced and diced to kingdom come, but it won't help find this little girl.

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I agree that speaking to the media most likely will not help. But you would think that out of desperation to get Isa home the parents would be (grabbing at straws) doing anything and everything to get her name out there. Speaking to the media and people trashing their words and actions is how the case will not go cold in the public eye. JMO