OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

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This is EXACTLY the way I recall our girl scout camp tents in 1983/84/85.
The way I was trying to describe as platform tents of the military-type when they are not set up for an extended period of time, but not a short period of time either. The platforms remain- the canvas can go up or down.

Thank you, Laura Bean- although now I have the chills.
 
Question for anyone who may have this information (and apologies in advance for it's horrific factor):

Do we know whether or not these children were sexually assaulted before or after death? From all of the articles I have read it would appear that possibly two were sexually assaulted after death, and one while alive. Or perhaps all after death. IMHO- major info and indicator of the type of person(s) who committed this heinous crime. :waitasec:
 
Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this question- newbie here, not sure on this type of stuff- but I believe the girls were 8, 9, and 10 years old. Not 7, 8 and 9 years old.. Is this correct? If so- is there a way to correct that in the thread title?
 
I continued to read last night and learned much more, which most of you covered here including the size of the tent and the OSBI position. I read that 3 of the 4-5 samples processed for DNA by my favorite group at the University of Texas came back to Hart. The legal definition of this is "inconclusive." One DNA sample was clearly from one of the children in terms of a major contribution, so it was difficult to get the Male contributor DNA out of the mix. It is also clear there was more than one assailant because of the multiple shoe prints-Hart's shoe size was not reflected in the casts-so I would be willing to go for the possible 3 person assailant theory...

So I have to ask myself if one of the girls was targeted and the other two were, God forgive me, collateral damage? Hart was not in the tent, perhaps, the other two were killing the two children, then the three were taken out 100-150 yards away into the woods where the last innocent was attacked and killed...at least by two of the assailants? The only reason I think that is because she had two items around her neck...I read that the babies in the sleeping bags were tied in a fetal position. Were they SA as well?? I read stories that stated they were and stories that did not mention it.

Bumping my own post about the Hart DNA connection. Here is the link which I did not include in the original post:
http://campscottmurders.bravejournal.com/
snip
According to reports concerning the 1989 testing, three of five aspects of DNA from the murder scene matched those of body fluids taken from Hart, an American Indian. Only one in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did.

But since only three of the five samples matched, the results were deemed inconclusive.

snip

The additional testing done in 2007 completely consumed some of the specimens....the results on the samples were inconclusive because the samples were quite degraded....they could only get fragmented epthelial cells.

So, clearly the evidence indicates some level of participation by Hart. I do not believe he was the mastermind or the sole participant. I think there were two others as well. JMO.
 
Bumping my own post about the Hart DNA connection. Here is the link which I did not include in the original post:
http://campscottmurders.bravejournal.com/
snip
According to reports concerning the 1989 testing, three of five aspects of DNA from the murder scene matched those of body fluids taken from Hart, an American Indian. Only one in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did.

But since only three of the five samples matched, the results were deemed inconclusive.

snip

The additional testing done in 2007 completely consumed some of the specimens....the results on the samples were inconclusive because the samples were quite degraded....they could only get fragmented epthelial cells.

So, clearly the evidence indicates some level of participation by Hart. I do not believe he was the mastermind or the sole participant. I think there were two others as well. JMO.

Thank you, believe09-
It would seem prudent also to remember that 'bodily fliuds' can mean quite a few different things. Some are more easily transfered that others- and if the one sample in particular was primarily from the one child...we can probably assume blood...? (But ya'll know what they say about 'assume' :) )

Is the autopsy report for these girls available somewhere I can find it online?
 
Okay what I don't understand is back when this happened they weren't using actual DNA to identify subjects. So when they say that the bodily fluids matched this guy, how was that determined? I mean, what test did they do to match it?
 
Question for anyone who may have this information (and apologies in advance for it's horrific factor):

Do we know whether or not these children were sexually assaulted before or after death? From all of the articles I have read it would appear that possibly two were sexually assaulted after death, and one while alive. Or perhaps all after death. IMHO- major info and indicator of the type of person(s) who committed this heinous crime. :waitasec:

Bumping my own question here.... It appears the assumption is that the girls were raped prior to death? But that doesn't make sense to me considering the evidence of the way their deaths occured, and the manner in which they were found. I really would like to know this, just for the sake of behavioral analysis of the perp(s) as well as motive.
Thought on how to aquire this info, anyone?

Thanks.
 
In re: the 1989 tests ("three of five aspects of DNA from the murder scene matched those of body fluids taken from Hart, an American Indian. Only one in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did"), perspective is needed: the 1980 census listed the population of Oklahoma at 3,026,000 citizens. Those of Native American ancestry were vastly underreported by that census (three years after the murders). However, the Native population in Oklahoma would be about the same as today---about 7.8% of the population, or, roughly, 238,000 in 1977-80.

The estimate that "one in 7,700 would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did," would mean that over 30 other Native Americans in Oklahoma alone would have matched the same profile. The area around Locust Grove has a much higher concentration of Native Americans, perhaps the greatest in Oklahoma, given the vast Cherokee population---the 2000 census sets the Native population in Locust Grove itself at 32.50%. If at all accurate (which I doubt), the 1989 test estimate would, therefore, mean that perhaps 6-10 other Native Americans in the immediate area of Camp Scott would match the same profile.

That test, therefore, was, at best, not only "inconclusive" but highly inconclusive, and only served further to damn Hart twenty+ years after the fact. That must have been the only purpose for release of the information in the form it was released---as a vindication of LE for settling on Hart immediately and taking him to trial.

Gene Leroy Hart was railroaded from the start, and a jury of his peers found him not guilty of the Locust Grove murders. (It's also true that he may indeed not be innocent of participation in the crimes.) I find his premature death in 1979 in the Oklahoma State Prison at McAlester to be very suspicious; I doubt he would have been able to endure even for a short time his dexterous fitness regime if his heart had have been in the alleged condition it was "found" to be at autopsy.

(A word about the Locust Grove-area residents---and there seems to have been plenty of them---who aided Hart after his jailbreak: one must understand that what later became the state of Oklahoma was, first, the destination of the Cherokee tribes displaced from the Carolinas and Georgia and made to march westward on what would become known as The Trail of Tears. Those who reached Indian Territory here were told that this was their land under treaty in perpetuity. As the terms of very nearly all treaties were broken by the white man, so too here: most of the land given was subsequently taken away, and prejudice against Native Americans in Oklahoma became the norm. Hart's rape conviction may well have seemed to Cherokees in the area as yet another sad sham of white "justice." [Full disclosure: I am part Cherokee.] )
 
In re: the 1989 tests ("three of five aspects of DNA from the murder scene matched those of body fluids taken from Hart, an American Indian. Only one in 7,700 American Indians would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did"), perspective is needed: the 1980 census listed the population of Oklahoma at 3,026,000 citizens. Those of Native American ancestry were vastly underreported by that census (three years after the murders). However, the Native population in Oklahoma would be about the same as today---about 7.8% of the population, or, roughly, 238,000 in 1977-80.

The estimate that "one in 7,700 would match the samples, as Hart reportedly did," would mean that over 30 other Native Americans in Oklahoma alone would have matched the same profile. The area around Locust Grove has a much higher concentration of Native Americans, perhaps the greatest in Oklahoma, given the vast Cherokee population---the 2000 census sets the Native population in Locust Grove itself at 32.50%. If at all accurate (which I doubt), the 1989 test estimate would, therefore, mean that perhaps 6-10 other Native Americans in the immediate area of Camp Scott would match the same profile.

That test, therefore, was, at best, not only "inconclusive" but highly inconclusive, and only served further to damn Hart twenty+ years after the fact. That must have been the only purpose for release of the information in the form it was released---as a vindication of LE for settling on Hart immediately and taking him to trial.

Gene Leroy Hart was railroaded from the start, and a jury of his peers found him not guilty of the Locust Grove murders. (It's also true that he may indeed not be innocent of participation in the crimes.) I find his premature death in 1979 in the Oklahoma State Prison at McAlester to be very suspicious; I doubt he would have been able to endure even for a short time his dexterous fitness regime if his heart had have been in the alleged condition it was "found" to be at autopsy.

(A word about the Locust Grove-area residents---and there seems to have been plenty of them---who aided Hart after his jailbreak: one must understand that what later became the state of Oklahoma was, first, the destination of the Cherokee tribes displaced from the Carolinas and Georgia and made to march westward on what would become known as The Trail of Tears. Those who reached Indian Territory here were told that this was their land under treaty in perpetuity. As the terms of very nearly all treaties were broken by the white man, so too here: most of the land given was subsequently taken away, and prejudice against Native Americans in Oklahoma became the norm. Hart's rape conviction may well have seemed to Cherokees in the area as yet another sad sham of white "justice." [Full disclosure: I am part Cherokee.] )

Thank you for this info. I am not Cherokee but am very familiar with the Trail of Tears, the abuse that ensued of Native Americans (in particular Cherokees) and feel I understand the prejudicial aspects of this case. Gayle Ross is an aquaintence of mine, if that makes sense.

IMO the 'testing' done both at the time and in 1989 is akin to a simple blood test determining blood type. So if your blood type is O+ and you fit the bill for being in the location at the time and are a prior felon- you're guilty. No acknowlegement of the fact that the percentage of the population at large with O+ blood is 38%.
IMHO- this proves nothing.

I believe GLH was framed. MOO. And I would like to find the real perpetrators of this terrible crime.
 
Thank you for this info. I am not Cherokee but am very familiar with the Trail of Tears, the abuse that ensued of Native Americans (in particular Cherokees) and feel I understand the prejudicial aspects of this case. Gayle Ross is an aquaintence of mine, if that makes sense.

IMO the 'testing' done both at the time and in 1989 is akin to a simple blood test determining blood type. So if your blood type is O+ and you fit the bill for being in the location at the time and are a prior felon- you're guilty. No acknowlegement of the fact that the percentage of the population at large with O+ blood is 38%.
IMHO- this proves nothing.

I believe GLH was framed. MOO. And I would like to find the real perpetrators of this terrible crime.

Yes, Gayle Ross is descended from Chief John Ross, a.k.a. The Cherokee Moses, a.k.a. Guwisguwi. (I've never met Ms. Ross but have been honored to meet Chief Wilma Mankiller, who is from Tahlequah, the capital of Cherokee Nation. T-quah's a half-hour SE of Locust Grove.)

As for GLH being framed, it also must be noted that it is possible to frame a guilty man---essentially what happened, imo, in the case of O.J. Simpson. While both were acquitted, each may have been guilty.

(Another odd thing about the '89 tests: what are the chances of murders committed in 1977 being further tied, 20+ years later, to a man who allegedly fit the profile, a "one in 7700" chance? Yeah, right. The very language of that farce was tailored to establish Hart's guilt, by any means possible, in spite of the results at trial, forever.)
 
<As for GLH being framed, it also must be noted that it is possible to frame a guilty man---essentially what happened, imo, in the case of O.J. Simpson. While both were acquitted, each may have been guilty.>

Exactly what I meant. Thank you for clarifying where I did not do as well. :)
And yes I am fortunate to have crossed paths with Gayle more than a few times personally, and hear her take on this situation.

In this nation, I feel strongly that people should not only be convicted of the crimes they actually perpetrate...but also charged- based on verifiable evidence and sometimes, those do not seem to coincide. To me- the charging is where it all begins.
As Americans, I believe we want justice for the crimes committed daily in our homes, neighborhoods, communities, our nation. That begins with initial crime scene processing, as well as the prosecutorial steps taken from that moment on.

Thanks for your post.
 
As an aside, Bookfinder.com is listing a copy for $7.94 (hardcover, good condition). There are signed copies of the book going for as high as $400.

Thanks again, shadowangel---just got the book in the mail today. I hadn't remembered how absolutely well-written it is. The Wilkerson brothers---OSBI agents with Cherokee bloodlines---start with almost two pages about Locust Grove and the Cherokee Nation, excellent stuff well-handled. And by page four, one's heart is already broken:

"The children were more or less allowed to select their tentmates. After the selection, three girls were left. They were left because they did not know anyone in the unit and they had been too shy to make friends on the bus ride to camp."

And by page five, the enduring chill sets in:

""The clouds were still hanging ominously and it was still raining moderately when the Kiowa counselors decided to make the trek back to their unit. With counselors in the lead, the children went half-running into the dusky darkness."
 
Like Oriah, I am concerned about the specifics of the crime, because it is my feeling that one girl was targeted for a specific reason, whatever that reason may have been. At least, IMO. One was handled so differently from the others, it is hard not to make that assumption. From most of my reading, it seems that the two girls who were bludgeoned were hit in the tent and then taken out. The killers took the time to wipe up the blood as much as they could and then hide the sheets they used in the sleeping bags where the children were hogtied and hidden.

It did occur to me, wfo, when I linked the stats regarding the bodily fluids comparison from 1989, that there was likely a concentration of people with Native blood in that area which may have made the stat meaningless essentially, EXCEPT DNA testing was available then and there is no specification of whether or not the "bodily fluid" test was all or in part related to DNA.....
 
Like Oriah, I am concerned about the specifics of the crime, because it is my feeling that one girl was targeted for a specific reason, whatever that reason may have been. At least, IMO. One was handled so differently from the others, it is hard not to make that assumption. From most of my reading, it seems that the two girls who were bludgeoned were hit in the tent and then taken out. The killers took the time to wipe up the blood as much as they could and then hide the sheets they used in the sleeping bags where the children were hogtied and hidden.

It did occur to me, wfo, when I linked the stats regarding the bodily fluids comparison from 1989, that there was likely a concentration of people with Native blood in that area which may have made the stat meaningless essentially, EXCEPT DNA testing was available then and there is no specification of whether or not the "bodily fluid" test was all or in part related to DNA.....

Right on the one possibly being targeted. Denise Milner's body seems obviously to have been staged (a term I didn't know back in the early '80s when I first read the book). I'm remembering the absolutely odd details of that night---what you refer to above, plus the screw hooks which held the back flaps being unscrewed on several tents, including the victims', the stolen purses, etc. etc.---as I read along.
 
Yes, to me that seems the case as well.

Another question- anyone have clarification as to the actual physical rape evidence? Just because a victim is unclothed in certain places might certainly imply a sex-based crime. But not necessarily.
 
Yes, to me that seems the case as well.

Another question- anyone have clarification as to the actual physical rape evidence? Just because a victim is unclothed in certain places might certainly imply a sex-based crime. But not necessarily.

I think it can at least be inferred from the locations of the degraded samples which were processed in 2007, that at least one of the campers was sexually attacked.
 
Also just wanted to post some lyrics to a song I feel speak strongly of this case, and sometimes music gets across to people before actual detail. You can find it on youtube if you want.

"Land Rights" by Xavier Rudd

Lyrics:
because it was sacred, because it was home
because these were feelings, from so long ago
they listened to the spirits, that came up strong
they all pulled together, to sing their song

this is how they did it, spears by their side
they stood on the mountain, for their land rights
all the people noticed, the movement took flight
they said this is our home, these are our rights
this is our home, these are our rights

country it was taken, land dug up
families were broken, spirits were crushed
the language that was silenced, is now free to be passed
the cup that was empty, is slowly filling up

so we can pull together, show our children it is time
you see, this is our home, these are our rights
this is our home, there are our rights
this is our home, there are our rights
 
I think it can at least be inferred from the locations of the degraded samples which were processed in 2007, that at least one of the campers was sexually attacked.

Yes that's what I get also. While alive (sorry for the graphic) ?
 
Okay one more thing. That test proving it came from "a native american", would it also show up for someone who was even partial native american? I mean, if that test linked even partially native american peoples than we are probably looking at most of the town being a possibility. It's just a thought. This test could be almost completely worthless.
 
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