Why were JB's arms over her head?

Ames said:

Unless, of course...that IS where they had BEEN previously kept, and they removed and hid them after the murder.

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Ames,

I think LHP is on record as seeing the size-12's in JonBenet's bedroom dresser drawer, unopened?


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Patsy has stated JonBenet did own days of the week panties...size 6...

Yes, PR said she bought them in Bloomingdale's on the New York trip she made that November. She said she bought a set for JBR (size 6) and a set for another relative (the size 12s).

rashomon said:

It would be found out that the panitbrush hadle came from the Ramsey home. It is highly unlikely that the "small foreign faction", in the process of abducting JonBet, stumbling through the dark basement with the body, would be thinking, "now while we're at it, let's take a this paintbrush here with us and see if we can later construct a torture instrument with that!" Sounds absurd imo.

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perhaps that was only added later

You mean she was manually strangled first? But why strangle her manually when if she has already been whacked on the head?

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(I hope it's ok if I butt in here),Dr Spitz's timeline,which ST agreed was logical,says that she was manually strangled with a shirt collar first,thus leaving the abrasions on the side of her neck/face,by the perp's knuckles.(I agree w/ wolfmarsgirl that they're actually Patsy's ring marks).he states that is consistent with someone being out of control..a rage attack.then the devastating head blow came next...
I don't know what to make of his use of the word 'blow'..if that is just a general term,or if he means he thinks it was caused by an object.

DeeDee249 said:

Yes, PR said she bought them in Bloomingdale's on the New York trip she made that November. She said she bought a set for JBR (size 6) and a set for another relative (the size 12s).

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does anyone know when they would have been seeing the niece again? or would Patsy have likely just mailed those? it doesn't seem they were for xmas,unless she was just late sending them or they had plans to see her later on.I'm JW if they were already wrapped or not.

JMO8778 said:

does anyone know when they would have been seeing the niece again? or would Patsy have likely just mailed those? it doesn't seem they were for xmas,unless she was just late sending them or they had plans to see her later on.I'm JW if they were already wrapped or not.

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JMO, I don't have a personal copy of DOI but if I remember correctly, Patsy said the larger size panties were bought as a Christmas gift for Polly Paugh Davis's daughter but JonBenet threw a fit over the panties and wanted to keep them. So, Patsy said "No big deal" and just kept them for JonBenet, saying JonBenet would grow into that size (my paraphrasing).

DeeDee249 said:

Yes, JR's actions and behavior speak volumes to me about his guilt. He may or may not be the murderer, but he is involved in the events of that night.
PR is dead now. An innocent man, with other children who have been living with that awful night for 10 years, would say SOMETHING at this point. But what could he say, really? If he blames his late wife, well, HE helped cover it up that night, and obstructed justice these past 10 years. That's a crime in it's own right.

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The only way a husband and wife would stick by each other the way the Ramsey's did, and blame close friends to divert attention away from them, would be if they were covering up a murder, hopefully an accidental one, that had been committed by their other child. They concocted the whole story to protect him. Think about it.

calicocat said:

The only way a husband and wife would stick by each other the way the Ramsey's did, and blame close friends to divert attention away from them, would be if they were covering up a murder, hopefully an accidental one, that had been committed by their other child. They concocted the whole story to protect him. Think about it.

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Yes, some DO believe that. I am not so sure I do, though I am convinced it was a RDI. (not sure which one).But a child-did-it would explain the Grand Jury actions -or rather INaction. And would explain the DA's cowardly retreat from prosecuting this case.
But I can't see BR doing this alone. Maybe if JAR was also involved. Because apparently according to Colorado law, JAR can't be charged if BR was involved. Seems like a law set up to be a pedophile's dream. Wanna kill a kid? Just get another kid to be there and say he "helped".
Let's say it DID go down this way....at what point do the parents take over and begin the coverup. Let's say the boys were involved in sexual activity with their sister in the basement after the parents went to bed. Maybe the garotte was a part of the game. Maybe some penetration with the paintbrush handle. She screams. She gets bashed on the head to shut her up with the heavy flashlight the kids used to walk around the house that night, including the snack in the kitchen. She's not dead yet, but they don't know that. But it's assumed she was, as she was unconscuious, probably barely breathing. At this point the parents MUST be told, so the coverup begins.
Now let's pick a few things apart. JAR was supposedly seen the day before. I believe he WAS seen, even though neighbor Joe Barnhill later retracted. Interesting...neighbor Melody Stanton also retracted her statment about hearing the scream. She was so upset with the situation, she moved away from the area. Coincidence? I think not.
JAR could have been at home on 15th street Christmas Day and simply not gone to the White's. The lack of Christmas Day movies or photos from the hours before the White's party have always made me suspicious as to who was in those photos. But JAR supposedly arrived with his sister later on the 26th, when they were told about the death of JBR. I can't work this one out in my mind...maybe some of you can help.
If JAR and Melinda were on a commercial flight, there would be evidence of it. If they were on a private plane, someone flew that plane. Has the pilot been supoenaed to testify as to whether JAR was on the plane? How did JAR and his sister know to abort the Charlevoix trip and show up in Boulder? Were they already IN Boulder, maybe from the previous day? Was Melanie's fiance with them when they arrived? Were they called while in-flight by their father telling them of the "kidnapping"? Where are the phone records. Oh, wait...they got "lost". And Hunter wouldn't allow them to be gotten without R permission.
Without all these ducks in a row, its hard to make a case for the other kids to have commited the crime. But till this case is solved, I am not ruling out ANY R.

JMO8778 said:

does anyone know when they would have been seeing the niece again? or would Patsy have likely just mailed those? it doesn't seem they were for xmas,unless she was just late sending them or they had plans to see her later on.I'm JW if they were already wrapped or not.

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I think they were wrapped to give later, maybe they were going to be mailed. I often don't get Christmas gifts mailed before the holiday, I try to get them out by New Years'. And PR ran a pretty lax household. I can imagine her giving them whenever she got around to it. I think she did have them wrapped, though, as there was evidence of "partially wrapped" gifts in the basement. Except I think that is an improper description. Who leaves a box "partially wrapped"? Nobody. You might leave a GROUP of gifts partially wrapped, meaning some of the individual boxes would either be completely wrapped or not wrapped at all.
Instead, I believe those presents were partially UNWRAPPED. Because someone was frantically trying to find the Bloomies panties that were meant for Jenny. The size-12s.

BOESP said:

JMO, I don't have a personal copy of DOI but if I remember correctly, Patsy said the larger size panties were bought as a Christmas gift for Polly Paugh Davis's daughter but JonBenet threw a fit over the panties and wanted to keep them. So, Patsy said "No big deal" and just kept them for JonBenet, saying JonBenet would grow into that size (my paraphrasing).

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And of course, PR said a lot of things in that book that weren't true. Yes, she did buy the larger panties as a gift for her niece, but she also bought JBR a set of her own, so I don't think it would have been necessary for JBR to throw a fit over keeping the second set.

BOESP said:

JMO, I don't have a personal copy of DOI but if I remember correctly, Patsy said the larger size panties were bought as a Christmas gift for Polly Paugh Davis's daughter but JonBenet threw a fit over the panties and wanted to keep them. So, Patsy said "No big deal" and just kept them for JonBenet, saying JonBenet would grow into that size (my paraphrasing).

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BOESP,
Has it ever occurred to you that Patsy's version of events is fabricated?

No size-12 underwear was ever found in JonBenet's bathroom underwear drawer.

Also JonBenet as a pageant participant would be aware that the size-12's would look ridiculous on her, why should she want them when her mother could have 10 packs of bloomingdales size-6 mailed by next day post, just for JonBenet?

.

UKGuy said:

BOESP,
Has it ever occurred to you that Patsy's version of events is fabricated?

No size-12 underwear was ever found in JonBenet's bathroom underwear drawer.

Also JonBenet as a pageant participant would be aware that the size-12's would look ridiculous on her, why should she want them when her mother could have 10 packs of bloomingdales size-6 mailed by next day post, just for JonBenet?

.

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Nah ... Patsy wouldn't lie. :waitasec:

DeeDee249 said:

And of course, PR said a lot of things in that book that weren't true. Yes, she did buy the larger panties as a gift for her niece, but she also bought JBR a set of her own, so I don't think it would have been necessary for JBR to throw a fit over keeping the second set.

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right,that doesn't make any sense.what makes sense is that Patsy came up w. that story so that it would appear the underwear wasn't wrapped and in the basement.

DeeDee249 said:

Now let's pick a few things apart. JAR was supposedly seen the day before. I believe he WAS seen, even though neighbor Joe Barnhill later retracted. Interesting...neighbor Melody Stanton also retracted her statment about hearing the scream. She was so upset with the situation, she moved away from the area. Coincidence? I think not.

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me neither.

JAR could have been at home on 15th street Christmas Day and simply not gone to the White's. The lack of Christmas Day movies or photos from the hours before the White's party have always made me suspicious as to who was in those photos. But JAR supposedly arrived with his sister later on the 26th, when they were told about the death of JBR. I can't work this one out in my mind...maybe some of you can help.

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it may have been on another board,but I did see a theory about JAR,and it was reasoned he could have been there..it would have been a tight squeeze time wise,but it was said to be possible.

If JAR and Melinda were on a commercial flight, there would be evidence of it.
yes

If they were on a private plane, someone flew that plane. Has the pilot been supoenaed to testify as to whether JAR was on the plane?

I don't know.but it seems Archeuta (sp) was on his way to the airport when called by JR,and per his wife,it seems he was unaware of what was going on.so unless there was another pilot...

How did JAR and his sister know to abort the Charlevoix trip and show up in Boulder?

JR called them.

Were they already IN Boulder, maybe from the previous day?
doesn't seem that way,no.

Was Melanie's fiance with them when they arrived?

Yes.he later called Thomas about inconsistencies in JR's comments to JAR regarding the time JB's body was found (and prob. more,IMO).I don't think he believes the R's to be innocent.He's a Dr. btw...perhaps JR wanted to find JB bf he arrived.

Were they called while in-flight by their father telling them of the "kidnapping"?
Yes
Where are the phone records. Oh, wait...they got "lost". And Hunter wouldn't allow them to be gotten without R permission.
Without all these ducks in a row, its hard to make a case for the other kids to have commited the crime. But till this case is solved, I am not ruling out ANY R.
read Thomas's book for more on that..they got gone,alright.and with some help at that...

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my answers in bold.
another thing is...if a SFF that took JB,why wasn't JR worried about the rest of the family coming to Boulder????
he wasn't.he knew there wasn't one.he prob. wanted the other kids around so as to vouch for what a great dad he was..let LE see that,IOW.

rashomon said:

JB's position with her arms over her head does not imply she was left that way after being bludgeoned to death. The dead body probably was arranged in that manner a good while after her death, i. e. when the staging was completed. Rigor mortis starts hours after death, so the stager of the scene had ample time to put the body in this position.

I believe the stager of the scene arranged the arms on purpose to suggest a scenario resembling sexual bondage. And many IDIs have indeed swallowed this scenario hook, line and sinker.

Weren't the stairs decorated with greenery? I suppose JonBenet's body picked some up when being carried downstaris.

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Rash,after thinking long and hard about it....your answer makes the most sense to me. (yes,there was greenery on the staircase).It was staged originally to be the work of a pedo.I believe that was later changed,and JB was wiped down,redressed,and covered w the blanket.And that's the reason JR lied about her wrists being tied tight when they weren't...he was worried about a sexual staging pointing to him.(I think they originally,in a panic,were going to get her out of the house,ie-per the RN 'deny her remains').When that changed,so did the staging,but perhaps rigor had set in by then.

JMO8778 said:

right,that doesn't make any sense.what makes sense is that Patsy came up w. that story so that it would appear the underwear wasn't wrapped and in the basement.

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JMO, what you said seems most likely, especially since based on police interviews with Patsy, they questioned her about the opened gift packages that were found in the basement. I believe Patsy said she had to open the corners of the packages to peek in and see if she could find Burke's birthday gifts that were among the wrapped Christmas gifts. Apparently, according to Patsy, she bought this stuff in New York and had the store gift wrap the presents and ship them to Boulder for her. The birthday gifts and Christmas gifts were wrapped in like paper and she couldn't tell them apart.

It would be interesting to know if photographs taken in the basement could pinpoint the time the gifts were unwrapped.

By the way, I believe, if I remember correctly, Melinda, her fiance, and John Andrew had to change planes somewhere along the route from Atlanta to Charlesvoix. John called the layover airport and left an emergency message for the children to call Boulder before changing planes. At that point, John told them JonBenet had been kidnapped and for them to fly to Boulder. I believe this is covered in DOI. I'm not sure what to read into that action -- why not tell them to return to Atlanta? It would seem only an innocent parent (or maybe a truly cagey one) would tell the kids to come on to Boulder. Why would John risk letting the older children see JonBenet in rigor if John already knew JonBenet was dead. Seems like John would want to protect the older children from being exposed to that.

The matter of the fake greenery in her hair has been discussed a lot. There was artificial greenery wrapped around several staircased in the home. But that doesn't mean she was carried down the stairs. The wineceller was used to store several artificial Christmas trees. Her head was not wrapped up in the white blanket when she was found, so she could have picked up the green strands from the floor of the wineceller, or for that matter, any other area of the house. There is a crime scene photo of the area right outside the closed wineceller door. Hung on the wall in plain sight right next to the wineceller door is a large spray of fake Christmas greenery. If the garotte was made just outside that door, as some have said they believe it was, and the garotte was made right ON her, that could account for the greens in her hair as well.
I know LE even had the ink from the Sharpie found in the pen cup tested to see if it matched the ink on the RN. (it did) And the had the pineapple in the bowl tested to see if it matched the pineapple in JBR's intestine. (it did). There were fake trees in nearly every room of the R home that year (for the Christmas tour).
But I don't recall seeing if anyone tested the greens in her hair to see if they matched the greens on the floor of the wineceller, the green decoration on the wall just outside that is in the photo, it could even have come from the tree in the living room (where her body was placed after it was brought up) or the garland on the stairs. Every manufacturer has a different dye and different type of material used for their fake greenery. They traced the duct tape! Why didn't they trace the fake green needles? It would have given them one more piece of the puzzle. They could have ruled out her being carried. That would mean she walked. If she walked, she wasn't bound.

UKGuy said:

Ames,

I think LHP is on record as seeing the size-12's in JonBenet's bedroom dresser drawer, unopened?


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I believe that they were in her drawer too....unopened, because they were WAY to big for her. But, the story that I read is that Patsy bought them for a relative, and that JB wanted to keep them, and grow into them. I hate to say it...but, I believe Patsy about the panties, for once...I don't think that she is lying. I do believe that they were taken and hidden after the murder, though. WHO KNOWS....AUNTIE SPAMMY may have retrieved them when she was sent in for the "funeral clothes"...

rashomon said:

But if the size 12s had been in the bathroom drawer, then the police would have found them during their house search. But they did not find any size 12s, only size 4 to 6s.
In fact only much later, the Ramseys finally turned in a package of size 12s, claiming they had found them in boxes packed for their move to Atlanta.
It seems Patsy lied here when claiming the size 12 Bloomies were kept in the bathroom drawer.

jmo

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The first of many lies and I don't/can't remembers told by Patsy.
IMO, the size 12 panties were all part of the staging. Why redress the murdered child if the clothes could be traced back to her room? They/he/she dressed JBR in the size 12's to throw attention away from themselves.

IIRC, the size 12 panties were found in JBR's bedroom drawer.

DeeDee249 said:

The matter of the fake greenery in her hair has been discussed a lot. There was artificial greenery wrapped around several staircased in the home. But that doesn't mean she was carried down the stairs. The wineceller was used to store several artificial Christmas trees. Her head was not wrapped up in the white blanket when she was found, so she could have picked up the green strands from the floor of the wineceller, or for that matter, any other area of the house. There is a crime scene photo of the area right outside the closed wineceller door. Hung on the wall in plain sight right next to the wineceller door is a large spray of fake Christmas greenery. If the garotte was made just outside that door, as some have said they believe it was, and the garotte was made right ON her, that could account for the greens in her hair as well.
I know LE even had the ink from the Sharpie found in the pen cup tested to see if it matched the ink on the RN. (it did) And the had the pineapple in the bowl tested to see if it matched the pineapple in JBR's intestine. (it did). There were fake trees in nearly every room of the R home that year (for the Christmas tour).
But I don't recall seeing if anyone tested the greens in her hair to see if they matched the greens on the floor of the wineceller, the green decoration on the wall just outside that is in the photo, it could even have come from the tree in the living room (where her body was placed after it was brought up) or the garland on the stairs. Every manufacturer has a different dye and different type of material used for their fake greenery. They traced the duct tape! Why didn't they trace the fake green needles? It would have given them one more piece of the puzzle. They could have ruled out her being carried. That would mean she walked. If she walked, she wasn't bound.

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DeeDee, I re-read within the past few days Patsy's depositions. In one of them she is asked about some live greenery in a pot/bucket of water sitting in the basement. She says the boughs were kept fresh in the water and used to touch up the greenery on the mantels as needed, that it was "a southern thing" to use live greenery to decorate the home. Wonder why she was asked about that greenery in the water bucket? Any ideas anyone?