Why are you on the fence?

Very simply, I'm "on the fence" because if it was planned by TH, the plan was unnecessarily complicated and depended way too much on circumstances she wouldn't have been able to to control. I have an extremely hard time believing that anyone would have settled on *this* plan when they could have had many other opportunities.

Additionally, I think it would have had to involve at least one accomplice directly involved in harming Kyron and that is also hard for me to believe. The way I see it when 2 people collaborate to commit murder either its drug related, a hate-crime, an occasion when both collaborators share a common motive, or when the collaborators' relationship is such that one person has emotional control over the other(s). I can't see how any of these fit this circumstance. Subtract out a willing accomplice and then I really can't see how she could have done it.

GrainneDhu said:

SBM

As to why TMH chose not to challenge the RO, I do not know. My speculation is that her lawyer felt it was not in TMH's own best interests in the long term to challenge it in court, where anything TMH said could be used against her in a potential criminal case.

Click to expand...

Thanks Grainne...respectfully snipped...

This is the part that makes me wonder...if she is innocent and any of the working theories involving the Baby and her attachment to her are true, I can only imagine this seperation must be killing her...and if she knows she's innocent I could completely see her disregaridng her attorneys advice and fighting to see baby K anyway...

Im looking at it from a mom persepctive...if someone was trying to keep my kids away from me and I knew I had done nothing wrong I would fight it with every fiber of my being and i dont think Id be reasonable enough to listen to anyones advice and stay silent and not contest it...even an attorney

I do concede though that one cant say how they would react unless they are actually placed in that situation

I also whole heartedly appreciate the RO info. I was under the impression that a temp order could be placed but that within a reasonable amount of time evidence must be presented to keep it in effect...I had forgotten it would remain if she did not contest.

Thanks again GrainneDhu!

Good question, thanks.

I posted this in the "where are you on the fence" thread.

"Many reasons, including lack of any real evidence, the failed LS sting, the seemingly exclusive focus on TH from the get-go, the apparent failure to interview the groundskeeper weeks ago, the backing up of at least portions of TH's timeline, the statement of Kyron's friend, the questions about why in the world a missing child was dismissed as probably in the bathroom or getting a drink, the school's actions (or non-actions), the weird behavior by several people in this case (not just TH), the slow but subtle changing of LE's statements, the GK seeing kids come outside the school that morning, apparently unchaperoned, so many unanswered questions that are easily discernable even long-distance but that got skipped over in the rush to blame the stepmother and tell the community that they were safe, the reports of the kids' concerns over someone creepy, the vague and very-late-to-report MFH report from an unknown and unproven lawn dude, the very strange smearing of TH by family and leaks (that Source family!) until there seemed to be more focus on the soap opera and dysfunctional families than the missing child, the weird Horman family that includes a child sex offender and allegations of sexual abuse within the family from a grandparent, too many unanswered questions about other adults involved in this case, oh I don't want to type any more! Too many holes in the TH theory right now. "

Now I'll add some more. JW creeps me out totally and I sure hope they're checking him and all his connections out.

And, why am I on the fence? Because as I listen to cries that "if you get a lawyer you're guilty" and various versions of "the Constitution be damned, who cares about her rights if a child is missing" I've come to believe that I have a duty to balance on the fence, unless and until some real hard evidence is produced that can justify an arrest and get a conviction. As the Innocence Project, and various studies have shown, innocent people get convicted. As other cases have shown, innocent people get harassed, smeared, and have their lives ruined by LE tunnel vision and public scorning with full media blitz.

And if someone, whoever, is arrested, I want enough solid evidence to convict. A shaky case with holes can let the guilty go free just as a shaky case with holes can expose someone innocent to real hell on Earth.

So I'm stuck on the fence as a matter of conscience at this point as well as seeing holes big enough for Mack trucks in what we know right now. It's uncomfortable on the fence, really hard as a matter of conscience, dodging all the "slings and arrows" (sorry, Will!) and accusations of supporting a child murderer or something by supporting the Constitution. So, instead of wearing the infamous Scarlet A, is there a Scarlet C?

I hate this fence.

I'm on the fence because I don't see any real evidence of any sort to point either way. There's hearsay, innuendo, leaks, and supposedly reliable sources, but none of that counts for anything.

It may well be that LE has hard evidence that would change my mind. I don't know and I don't care to speculate.

I am ready to jump off the fence. I'm on the guilty side last rung.
Almost have my foot on the ground.
When the judge gave RO/baby K over to Kaine on MFH...........I started to climb up.
The 90 minutes same as DeDe unaccounted for 2 rung.
Getting one of the best criminal lawyers, why? 3rd rung.
Last adult to see Kyron. #4
Someone else in her truck waiting #5
Kyron acting up, TH wanting reports etc #6
TH sending her son away at the time #7
DeDe and TH secret friends, XBF never knew TH, Kaine says DeDe wasn't around much #8
Going to the gym, sexting and lie detecter failings and all the other dysfunctions #9
I'm waiting for the shoe to drop and I'll be falling down off the fence completely.

Sorry, who is JW?

Mylou said:

I am not on a fence at all. I just don't see any solid evidence for what happened to Kyron, let alone who is responsible for his disappearance. Im very disturbed that he has not been found yet. I still pray and wonder constantly where could he be.

While thinking about this case, something struck me as very strange.
Why.............are Kaine and Terri both still wearing their wedding rings ?
What is up with that ? Last I read Kaine was still wearing his, and the other day I read that Terri was still wearing hers. I find it very odd, maybe even one of the oddest things yet. And something that definately gives me pause to become suspicious for the first time yet. I have always felt that so much in this case feels so scripted and yet there is nothing really for evidence.

Click to expand...

I agree - so often I feel like this is a bad movie or a soap opera...or one of those horrible reality shows...

....I don't think it's possible though, is it?

A couple 'crashed' a white house dinner, with the support of some network who was also there filming. SECRET SERVICE was not aware of this, and there were almost charges brought against them - but then not. That's pretty serious stuff, if you ask me. If someone had told me this was planned - I'd have sat there thinking - well all involved are going to end up in the federal penn - but ya know, no one did, did they?

But this couldn't really be somethign like that could it? Some giant social experiment?

UGH!

I'm on the fence, sometimes I come down a rung or two on one side or the other - but after some time I find myself right on top again.

Nothing in this case makes any sense. And I think some of us are grasping to whatever might keep hope alive for Kyron. There are also some people who don't like to set themselves up for a heartbreak..so they cling to the worst possible scenario and get comfortable with that...it's better to be surprised with good news than with bad...

There is nothing solid here (I love the suduko metaphore!) so people are believing what they are to help them sleep at night, JMO.

KariKae said:

Sorry, who is JW?

Click to expand...

DeDe's ex-boyfriend

I think I am under the fence. I don't know what to think. On one hand, I think TH is involved somehow. On another hand, as others have eluded to, there could be other explanations for the gaps in TH's schedule the day Kyron went missing.

I want to share something slightly O/T, but relates closely to what we are experiencing with this case so please bear/bare (?) with me.

I went to the store last week and two officers were there with a woman in the back seat of the police car. The milk truck was also there and busted milk cartons were scattered about the parking lot...milk everywhere. As I approached the store, I walked past the police cars. I overheard them talking to the woman about DUI and being in no condition to operate a vehicle. I started looking around the parking lot for a damaged vehicle but didn't see one. Shook it off and proceeded to the store. What would most of us assume from the evidence presented? Seemed pretty obvious to me.

At the counter, I asked if the woman had run into the milk crates (nosy me). She had not. The milk guy dropped a crate and they didn't even know anything about the woman until the police pulled up. I don't even know if she was driving.

My point is that things certainly aren't always what they appear to be. The incident at the store really put things in perspective for me. I have thought all along TH was most certainly involved.

Now, here I am, under the fence.

The murder for hire plot doesn't ring true at all for me. LE botched up the sting completely with Terri calling 911 on the landscaper. It raises too many questions:
1)Why did the landscaper not report this before if he thought it was serious? It damages his credibility. Was it that he thought at the time she was joking & that really that's all there was to it?
2) Kaine said he didn't remember this landscaper, so he must not have been around the house that much.
3) Terri seems quite adept at keeping a loyal group of friends & good at keeping her mouth shut, why would she trust a stranger who for all she knew would go tell the police? It's not like she hired a hit man. Who on earth would ask a landscaper to kill their husband?-a stupid person & I don't believe that Terri's stupid.
4) Have LE investigated the lanscaper over Kyron? (I guess they would have done though). It's odd he injected himself into the investigation.
5) If Terri is so cold blooded she could harm a child she had brought up from being a baby, why would she not just kill Kaine herself?
Everytime I think ''is Terri guilty?'' there are so many questions raised & and no real answers. This would probably be called 'reasonable doubt' in court.

It's not so much that I am on the fence as to Terri's guilt, it's more that I need to rule out any other possibility.

An example: My doctor tells me that I most likely have terminal cancer. Do I respond, "oh, okay"? Or do I seek out all other possibilities?

I'd like a second opinion please. And a third and a fourth one please.

I had the ID channel show about Jaycee Dugard on this morning and an FBI agent was talking about how they put the stepfather under the microscope. He said, we have to look at whether there is really something here with him, or if we are concentrating on him because we don't have anything else.

I'm hoping LE in Kyron's case are exploring all options, even if Desiree is not.

I couldn't find any other thread to put this in......

First of all, I am not on the fence at all, but I wanted to share this thought with those of you that think the MFH plot is all baloney because the landscaper did not call the police at the time he was propositioned-

Many times men work landscaping (even have the own "companies") because they have a federal record and cannot get hired by any other companies. Landscaping does not require any great knowledge, any man built large enough could do it. Evidence of this, to me, is my one daughters live in BF is a landscaper and has been for years. Hes the biggest doop-de-do you'll ever meet, dumb as a rock, no common sense, but man can he make a yard look good. HE has a past federal record (is a convicted felon) which is why HE cannot work a "regular" job.

Another thing to consider is- maybe the landscaper was married or had a GF and part of the goings-on with this supposed MFH plot proposal was he had sex with Terri. Maybe he did not want that to come out, and knew it would.

Maybe he knew he had warrants like FTA out there and didn't want to call the cops cos of that. Long shot, but entirely possible. Maybe he had no drivers license due to DUI and should have never been out at her house with his "landscaping" truck to begin with. And so on.

Also, not everyone in this world is of the same mind we all are- you notify police when something like this happens! Some people just don't think like that. Maybe he was one of those people.

All I am saying is please don't discount the MFH plot just because this dude didn't call the cops immediately. There could be a lot of reasons why.

Thanks for listening to me, even though I don't belong in this thread. I do respect everyone's opinions here, though. All good thinkers!

abbie

Why am I on the fence? I guess it's because I'm not willing to convict anyone (even in my own mind) without solid, direct evidence.

I fully understand why TH appears guilty. I ponder all the reasons that have been given that point to TH's involvement in Kyron's disappearance, and I agree with many of those reasons. I also agree with many of the reasons that have been given that point to TH's innocence.

Nevertheless, I need something more before I take that step from "I'm suspicious of her" (which I am) to "I 100% believe she's guilty" (which I'm not).

I sometimes lie awake at night asking myself what it would take to convince me one way or the other. I still have some doubt of her guilt, since so much of the circumstantial *evidence* has other possible explanations that can either infer guilt or can infer innocence (which ultimately places the burden of proof upon the prosecution).

I'm on the fence because there are several ways to perceive TH's words & actions. If I look at her actions & words in one light, I perceive that she's possibly guilty. But if I look at her actions & words in another light, I perceive that she's possibly innocent.

I don't mind being on the fence, since I don't see this as a competition to predict the final outcome - there is no prize for being *right*.

All I want is for LE to solve this case, no matter who is guilty. All I want is for Kyron to be found & for whomever is responsible for his disappearance to be brought to justice.

ETA: The only ones that need to be right are LE. In the bigger picture, the opinions of me or anyone else are completely irrelevant.

sorrell skye said:

Why am I on the fence? I guess it's because I'm not willing to convict anyone (even in my own mind) without solid, direct evidence.

I fully understand why TH appears guilty. I ponder all the reasons that have been given that point to TH's involvement in Kyron's disappearance, and I agree with many of those reasons. I also agree with many of the reasons that have been given that point to TH's innocence.

Nevertheless, I need something more before I take that step from "I'm suspicious of her" (which I am) to "I 100% believe she's guilty" (which I'm not).

I sometimes lie awake at night asking myself what it would take to convince me one way or the other. I still have some doubt of her guilt, since so much of the circumstantial *evidence* has other possible explanations that can either infer guilt or can infer innocence (which ultimately places the burden of proof upon the prosecution).

I'm on the fence because there are several ways to perceive TH's words & actions.If I look at her actions & words in one light, I perceive that she's possibly guilty. But if I look at her actions & words in another light, I perceive that she's possibly innocent.

I don't mind being on the fence, since I don't see this as a competition to predict the final outcome - there is no prize for being *right*.

All I want is for LE to solve this case, no matter who is guilty. All I want is for Kyron to be found & for whomever is responsible for his disappearance to be brought to justice.

Click to expand...

bbm

Great point. Thanks for your comment!!

If we really look around to see who's atop the ''fence'' we might notice LE there too?

I am on the fence due to no evidence. I think TH is the prime supect simply because no one wants to believe something else happened. DY and KH want it to be her so K would have a chance at still being alive. The school and LE and maybe even the community wants it to be her rather than believe there is someone out there that could hurt their children.
I have never seen a case before where flyers were passed out with peoples pictures that there was no evidence against. To me this is a desperate act to create evidence.
This whole case has been about making the evidence fit their suspect rather than following the evidence. The LE's job is to solve the crime, guilt or innocence is decided by judges and juries not law inforcement.

My number one reason for being on the fence is because of cases like Jaycee Dugard, Shawn Hornbeck and Elizabeth Smart. It is important to not focus on one person and to think outside of the box, imo.

AbbieNormal said:

I couldn't find any other thread to put this in......

First of all, I am not on the fence at all, but I wanted to share this thought with those of you that think the MFH plot is all baloney because the landscaper did not call the police at the time he was propositioned-

Many times men work landscaping (even have the own "companies") because they have a federal record and cannot get hired by any other companies. Landscaping does not require any great knowledge, any man built large enough could do it. Evidence of this, to me, is my one daughters live in BF is a landscaper and has been for years. Hes the biggest doop-de-do you'll ever meet, dumb as a rock, no common sense, but man can he make a yard look good. HE has a past federal record (is a convicted felon) which is why HE cannot work a "regular" job.

Another thing to consider is- maybe the landscaper was married or had a GF and part of the goings-on with this supposed MFH plot proposal was he had sex with Terri. Maybe he did not want that to come out, and knew it would.

Maybe he knew he had warrants like FTA out there and didn't want to call the cops cos of that. Long shot, but entirely possible. Maybe he had no drivers license due to DUI and should have never been out at her house with his "landscaping" truck to begin with. And so on.

Also, not everyone in this world is of the same mind we all are- you notify police when something like this happens! Some people just don't think like that. Maybe he was one of those people.

All I am saying is please don't discount the MFH plot just because this dude didn't call the cops immediately. There could be a lot of reasons why.

Thanks for listening to me, even though I don't belong in this thread. I do respect everyone's opinions here, though. All good thinkers!

abbie

Click to expand...

I won't discount if you'll question it for the same reasons you listed above. Is it possible that this man has a record, is involved in illegal activities, and it would therefore benefit him to manufacture a story useful to LE? What if he was granted immunity for something in exchange for his testimony in front of the Grand Jury? Would that change your mind about his motivation?

We must ask ourselves why we know the identity of Dede's ex-boyfriend and yet not the landscaper with whom Terri allegedly discussed murdering her husband.

sorrell skye said:

Why am I on the fence? I guess it's because I'm not willing to convict anyone (even in my own mind) without solid, direct evidence.

I fully understand why TH appears guilty. I ponder all the reasons that have been given that point to TH's involvement in Kyron's disappearance, and I agree with many of those reasons. I also agree with many of the reasons that have been given that point to TH's innocence.

Nevertheless, I need something more before I take that step from "I'm suspicious of her" (which I am) to "I 100% believe she's guilty" (which I'm not).

I sometimes lie awake at night asking myself what it would take to convince me one way or the other. I still have some doubt of her guilt, since so much of the circumstantial *evidence* has other possible explanations that can either infer guilt or can infer innocence (which ultimately places the burden of proof upon the prosecution).

I'm on the fence because there are several ways to perceive TH's words & actions. If I look at her actions & words in one light, I perceive that she's possibly guilty. But if I look at her actions & words in another light, I perceive that she's possibly innocent.

I don't mind being on the fence, since I don't see this as a competition to predict the final outcome - there is no prize for being *right*.

All I want is for LE to solve this case, no matter who is guilty. All I want is for Kyron to be found & for whomever is responsible for his disappearance to be brought to justice.

ETA: The only ones that need to be right are LE. In the bigger picture, the opinions of me or anyone else are completely irrelevant.

Click to expand...

I would agree with everyone ... even this post, except it is all maybe,maybe, and if.

LE is working this case and evreything we wish we knew they already have. I will vote AFTER evidence is presented that is conclusive.