The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

MurriFlower said:

Nope. This is a quote from Daxis. "DAXIS added he placed underwear or "knickers" onto JonBenet that he brought with him. The underwear brought by DAXIS was several sizes too large for JonBenet. DAXIS mentioned that the oversized underwear also bore the day of "Wednesday"."

Interesting to see that RDI is now taking the word of Daxis as truth.

OK, I'll say it again for the benefit of those who choose not to read thoroughly anything I write. JBR was found in size 12 panties from Bloomingdales, which were designed for a 10 year old. They were large but not excessively so, and drew no comment from those who saw her wearing them either in life or death.

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JD, the niece the panties were bought for, was 12 y/o. Making her two years older and and bigger.... Helps to keep it in perspective....

I'd like to know more about the white Gap sequin top... .were there any sequins found in her bed? Anywhere else in the house? Were any sequins missing from the top? I wouldn't want my daughter sleeping in a top with sequins. They catch easily on other things and sleeping in it might damage the top. If I took the time to change her PANTS, I would have changed her out of a SEQUIN star top. But then after JB used that top to "diss" her, maybe PR didn't care if it would get damaged or not by sleeping in it. Many tops with sequins are supposed to be hand washed because they really are more fragile than other types of embroidered or printed designs. Also....I'm still not convinced that top was from a set with black pants and a black vest! Did the star also have black on it? It just doesn't sound like a "set" to me. Just sayin'.

Alright folks, grab a drink, snacks and get comfy, as I have 90 pages of JMK arrest warrant for you to read.... Filed by one Thomas A Bennett, Chief Inv. Boulder Co. DA Office before the Honorable Roxanne Bailin...

It should be noted, that what the pajamas are didnt seem to be important as Mr Bennett called them sweat pants with an elastic band, the color and that they were pjs seemed to be all that mattered (Making it ignorant to argue if the DA didnt care to literally describe them). The over sized panties are mentioned on pages 62 and 81...

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/download/2006/0828/9751941.pdf

MurriFlower said:

I wouldn't rely too heavily on this as precise information maddy.

she was in fact attired in light colored pajamas and oversized underwear designed for a twelve to fourteen year old female.

IN FACT she was not attired in pyjamas at all. She had on a white Gap top with a star on it and longjohns. Just goes to show doesn't it, even legal documents can be WRONG!!

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I can see a white top & longjohns being called pajamas, & not be wrong. Longjohns aren't outerwear & Jon Benet had supposedly, been put to bed...so theoretically, that turned whatever she was wearing into pajamas. I get your point, but I think whoever wrote this, thought Jon Benet had dressed for bed, in her pajamas.

HOTYH,

I forgot to thank you in my last post... I found Karr's affidavit on a link you posted for channel 7 abc news, also known as TheDenverChannel.com... Thank you!

DeeDee249 said:

Plenty of people (especially men) might describe a pair of longjohns on child as "pajamas". They are easily used as such, were obviously light-colored (not really white, or gray or beige, but that kind of waffle-weave thermal "heather oatmeal" most moms are all familiar with. JB's sleeping attire was perfectly appropriate. Nothing unusual about it, including leaving the white Gap top on for sleeping.
It is counterproductive to continue to play word games concerning the thermal bottoms. We KNOW what she was found in. We just don't know when she was dressed in them, before the crime or after. There was no blood on them. There WAS blood on the pink nightgown. And while Patsy's description of what she put on JB and when is entirely possible, it may be that she wore the nightie first.
Had there been no blood on the pink nightie, I'd have to say (as I originally thought) that the nightie came out of the dryer clinging to the white blanket by static cling, and the stagers were unaware -JR: "That wasn't supposed to be there". The blood changes things a bit- and I'd like to know if the blood was splatters or a stain from seepage or a drop or 2. That makes a difference. To just say "blood" tells us very little. Maybe that's the idea.

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DeeDee249,
As you suggest the size-12's JonBenet was found wearing were intended for Jenny, who was 12-years old e.g. twice JonBenet's age. They were purchased by Patsy and stated by Patsy to have , allegedly, placed them into JonBenet's underwear drawer. Either way , despite the coroner not itemising the size of any of JonBenet's clothing, the size-12's were too large for JonBenet and easily twice her size. Too argue otherwise is to talk nonsense for nonsense's sake. A bit like hallucinating when you smoke non-tobacco products.

But we know, since no size-12's were discovered anywhere in the house, especially in JonBenet's underwear drawer, that Patsy was lying to her interviewers. Thus implicating the Ramsey's directly in the death of JonBenet.

There WAS blood on the pink nightgown. And while Patsy's description of what she put on JB and when is entirely possible, it may be that she wore the nightie first.

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This is my interpretation, it is also consistent with a bedtime scenario, the white-gap top is not. Whether the barbie nightgown was her original bedtime clothing is an open question.

The evidence for the bloodstains is from a screen capture of the DNA lab report shown on the 48 Hours program e.g.

LAB CLASS XX???-2136(?)-4153(?) SECTION: DNA TESTING
AGENCY(?) NAME – CD0878136 – F2 ACBLDER(?)

EXTRACTED(?) BY: blacked out EXTRACTION DATE: 123196(?)
ABSTRACT(X) AFA(?) ?/? ???
RAMSEY, PATSY W/F
RAMSEY, JOHN W/M
RAMSEY, JONBENET W/F

Two lines BLACKED OUT
DATE COMPLETED/JANUARY 13, 1997
EXTRACT(?) DESCRIPTION
#5A,5B# (?) Bloodstains from shirt
#7 Bloodstains from panties
#14B Bloodstain ????? from JonBenet Ramsey
#14J DNA? Or Swab? with Saliva????
#14L, #14M Right and Left hand fingernails from JonBenet Ramsey
#15A, #15B Samples from tape
Bloodstains from white blanket
#17A, #17C Bloodstains from nightgown??
#13A, #13B Semen ??? stain from black blanket
Bloodstain Standard from John Andrew Ramsey

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As you cite; with no bloodstains on her longjohns, but bloodstains on other objects this allows you to speculate that the longjohns arrived after other items e.g. JonBenet was redressed.

But we know that anyway since Patsy lied about personally placing the size-12's into JonBenet underwear drawer!


.

dodie20 said:

I can see a white top & longjohns being called pajamas, & not be wrong. Longjohns aren't outerwear & Jon Benet had supposedly, been put to bed...so theoretically, that turned whatever she was wearing into pajamas. I get your point, but I think whoever wrote this, thought Jon Benet had dressed for bed, in her pajamas.

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dodie20,

But we know that the wine-cellar is a staged crime scene, one where JonBenet had been redressed, certainly in those size-12's intended for a 12-year old girl which had been purchased by Patsy.

So whatever she was wearing when discovered may not reflect what she was wearing when killed.

So any IDI has to answer the question why did the intruder redress JonBenet. That is remove her size-6 underwear, remove her pink pajama bottoms, and remove her socks.

Does this intruder have a clothing fetish?


.

MurriFlower said:

So on a regular sized, 6 year old girl, they were generous, even perhaps large, but NOT OVERSIZED.

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I would suggest you re examine your own chat once again, go to Cynics thread once again and look at the visuals. Youmay actuallysee it differently. Would you subject your own children to wearing underwear that size? I would certainly hope not!!

I've seen it suggested that perhaps the big panties were purchased to fit over pull-ups. I could see a six-year-old wanting to hide the fact that she was wearing pull-ups if she wore them all the time, but that does not seem to be the case with JBR. In any event, pull-ups are pretty thin. If larger panties were needed to cover one, I would think a 6X or 7 at most would do the trick. Anything larger would hang off a 45-pound child.

Lets tackle the real question. Why did she have to lie about something that was no big deal. I mean if PR wanted her kid to wear plus size panties, it would be her somewhat crazy business. So, that leaves the real question of why did she lie?

MurriFlower said:

my bold

Really, no smilies? Here's a recent selection of your smilie posts.

Should I post the Wiki definition of lie again??

If you are weary of 'trite insults' then I am also weary of RDI's, as well as the smilies and silly pictures. If you want to discuss evidence regarding this case, then do so. If you just want to amuse yourself and your RDI friends, then get ready for more.

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MF when I first saw your post, it made me go , i thought who does MF think she is? :soldier: Hmmm I thought, maybe she is a soldier, crusading against smilies. Nahhhhh.

Not sure why she wants to show me other posts when I specifically mentioned that there were no smilies in the post she referred to. So, it got me thinking. Maybe this is what you are trying to accomplish, :argue:, maybe you are letting out your pent up :rage:, maybe you are just not wanting to tell me to :shutup:.

Then I decided to play :detective:. I noticed the last portion of your post. Where it says 'If you are weary of 'trite insults' then I am also weary of RDI's, as well as the smilies and silly pictures. If you want to discuss evidence regarding this case, then do so. If you just want to amuse yourself and your RDI friends, then get ready for more.'

This honestly made me say, :chillout::whoosh::snooty::dramaqueen:, in no particular order. If you don't like smilies, I can't help you. I will continue to use them as I see fit, whenever I happen to feel one fits, or 10 or more. They are here for a very good reason. Multiple reasons, I am sure.

As for discussing evidence, that is what I try to do. SOME posters would rather :argue:, make statements for shock value, vs content, :whip2: their ideas onto other posters, :liar: and change their statements every other post, or malign anyone that disagrees with them.

Didn't mean to make anyone anic: with this message. Maybe I should just say :nevermind:, BUT :noooo: I am tired of being bombarded by fftopic: derogatory posts, and wasn't sure if I wanted to :anguish:ullhair: or :laughcry:, so went for laugh.

MF I will be happy to discuss any case evidence or details with you anytime. But, if you continue to leave posts saying you are leaving as you have something 'important to do', then posting you had to 'wash your hair', it is as childish as smilies, and not nearly so much fun.

SunnieRN said:

MF I will be happy to discuss any case evidence or details with you anytime. But, if you continue to leave posts saying you are leaving as you have something 'important to do', then posting you had to 'wash your hair', it is as childish as smilies, and not nearly so much fun.

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Sunnie>>>>>>>> :takeabow: You are my >>>> :hero:

Agatha_C said:

Sunnie>>>>>>>> :takeabow: You are my >>>> :hero:

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From one caped crusader



to another, might I say,



I am not worthy!!!!

Agatha and My Tee, thank you for making me smile!

Steely said:

I'd like to know more about the white Gap sequin top... .were there any sequins found in her bed? Anywhere else in the house? Were any sequins missing from the top? I wouldn't want my daughter sleeping in a top with sequins. They catch easily on other things and sleeping in it might damage the top. If I took the time to change her PANTS, I would have changed her out of a SEQUIN star top. But then after JB used that top to "diss" her, maybe PR didn't care if it would get damaged or not by sleeping in it. Many tops with sequins are supposed to be hand washed because they really are more fragile than other types of embroidered or printed designs. Also....I'm still not convinced that top was from a set with black pants and a black vest! Did the star also have black on it? It just doesn't sound like a "set" to me. Just sayin'.

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I believe I recall seeing a photo of the white Gap sequin star top but cannot remember where or when. If anyone can locate a link it would be appreciated. Regarding the top, it was new, so the sequins would probably have been well attached as opposed to something that had been well-worn and laundered. Also, (if memory serves me well...) the entire top was not sequined, just the star embem which, I believe, was on the front. I don't know if the star had black on it, but black and white is a basic color contrast combination so IMO it wouldn't be unusual in a co-ordinated outfit. I believe JB was also wearing black boots with this ensemble.

Bobbarita said:

I believe I recall seeing a photo of the white Gap sequin star top but cannot remember where or when. If anyone can locate a link it would be appreciated. Regarding the top, it was new, so the sequins would probably have been well attached as opposed to something that had been well-worn and laundered. Also, (if memory serves me well...) the entire top was not sequined, just the star embem which, I believe, was on the front. I don't know if the star had black on it, but black and white is a basic color contrast combination so IMO it wouldn't be unusual in a co-ordinated outfit. I believe JB was also wearing black boots with this ensemble.

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One thing you need to know about sequins on children's clothing...they might not be the same as adult sequin decoration. More like a silver lame`. Not individually sewn-on sequins. More like an applique. Especially as this was a washable cotton sweatshirt-type top.
I've never seen a photo of the top, but there was an artist's representation illustrating JB as she lay in the WC. It was not drawn by anyone who actually SAW her, but the clothing is probably fairly accurately illustrated.

Bobbarita said:

I believe I recall seeing a photo of the white Gap sequin star top but cannot remember where or when. If anyone can locate a link it would be appreciated. Regarding the top, it was new, so the sequins would probably have been well attached as opposed to something that had been well-worn and laundered. Also, (if memory serves me well...) the entire top was not sequined, just the star embem which, I believe, was on the front. I don't know if the star had black on it, but black and white is a basic color contrast combination so IMO it wouldn't be unusual in a co-ordinated outfit. I believe JB was also wearing black boots with this ensemble.

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Well hello, Stranger! Glad to "see" your smiling "face!"

You're right. Having sewn about a kabillion sequins on things in my day, I can tell you that they are rugged little critters and sewn to stay in place. (Exhibits A and B: My grandmunchkins' Christmas stockings I made them that survive being wagged around like rag dolls). And if I can do that good a job by hand, the industrial machines used to construct a Gap shirt are bound to do that much better.

[ETA: Silver lame', eh? I might have to look into this silver lame' for the next grandmunchkin's stocking!]

Noddy said:

Sorry for jumping in but has it been said that JBR wore diapers to bed for the bed-wetting problem? I can see the size 12 being useful if she did wear diapers. Would there be any reason PR wouldn't admit to the use of diapers? Excuse me if this question has already been asked.

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You are talking about Pull-Ups....pull on "diapers"...made like underwear...so there is no need for panties on over them.

MurriFlower said:

I wouldn't rely too heavily on this as precise information maddy.

she was in fact attired in light colored pajamas and oversized underwear designed for a twelve to fourteen year old female.

IN FACT she was not attired in pyjamas at all. She had on a white Gap top with a star on it and longjohns. Just goes to show doesn't it, even legal documents can be WRONG!!

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I really don't know what country you live in, but...PJ's can be anything that you sleep in. For example...I sleep in oversized t-shirts, and sweat pants...those are my PJ's. So apparently ML believes Patsy story about JB being put to bed wearing the white gap shirt, and long johns....(her pj's for that night)....I, on the other hand, believe that JB's pj's that night, originally consisted of a red turtleneck shirt...that Patsy originally said that she put on JB to wear to bed that night, and then she changed her story. Pajamas are anything that you choose to sleep in....they do not have to be a perfect match top and pants set... that have the word PJ's flashing in neon colors.

cynic said:

Amazing.
I’m relatively certain that even this will not help, but here is some more context from the affidavit.

DAXIS said he removed the light colored pajamas that JonBenet was wearing and also removed underwear she was wearing. He described the underwear as "knickers". Repeatedly throughout this telephone conversation DAXIS referred to the underwear worn by JonBenet as "her knickers".
DAXIS advised Michael Tracey that he removed the "knickers" from JonBenet and took the item with him after he left the Ramsey residence by way of the same point that he entered into the home. DAXIS added he placed underwear or "knickers" onto JonBenet that he brought with him. The underwear brought by DAXIS was several sizes too large for JonBenet. DAXIS mentioned that the oversized underwear also bore the day of "Wednesday". It should be noted that at the time of discovery JonBenet Ramsey at the lower level of her residence, she was in fact attired in light colored pajamas and oversized underwear designed for a twelve to fourteen year old female. The underwear bore the day name of "Wednesday". The telephone call between Michael Tracey and DAXIS was recorded by way of an audiocassette-recording device.

Her sleepwear was referenced as pajamas, because Karr referenced it as such.
The fact that she was found in the size 12 – 14 panties is beyond question.

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Karr referenced it as pajamas...because he is American...and most American's call what they wear to bed, Pajamas. Doesn't matter WHAT it is.