Conrad Murray trial -Day nine.

Murray said he could not move MJ off the bed by himself. What is he over six foot tall and probably weighs twice as much as MJ but can't move him off the bed by himself.


Now, now, Thundar, don't be so harsh. After all, CM is only 6'5"/220 lbs. (according to what he said on the tape), and MJ weighs a whopping 136 lbs.
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In all fairness, maybe it was because MJ's leg was hooked up to the IV, but the good doc didn't say why he couldn't do it by himself. BUT, but -- if your patient is in cardiac arrest or has stopped breathing, you get him on the dayam floor any way you can, and f-a-s-t. What an :liar: idiot.
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Now, now, Thundar, don't be so harsh. After all, CM is only 6'5"/220 lbs. (according to what he said on the tape), and MJ weighs a whopping 136 lbs.
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In all fairness, maybe it was because MJ's leg was hooked up to the IV, but the good doc didn't say why he couldn't do it by himself. BUT, but -- if your patient is in cardiac arrest or has stopped breathing, you get him on the dayam floor any way you can, and f-a-s-t. What an :liar: idiot.
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Very true. And...CM said if he would have called 911 he would have been "neglecting" MJ. I believe at that point he already had for probably 45 minutes.
 
Ok I agree Murray is giving much more detail than he is being asked for.

People do that unconsciously when they are lying, and it always gets sticky, sticky, sticky later. I have noted several contradictions to what other witnesses have said -- several things that ER Dr. Cooper testified..... It will come back & haunt this man, and I wanna be there to see it. :maddening:
 
I know,but the use of propofol and the prescriptions is concerning .The staffers admitted he sometimes had slurred speech after leaving another Dr.s office and he saw him often.
Michael had a history of drug abuse.
The propofol wasn't for a procedure ,so by definition ,that's an abuse of a drug,IMO.

ETA: propofol is not a sleep medication.

Propofol was the ONLY drug that would ensure MJ could sleep. If you consider that being an addict, so be it, I don't. the doctor you are referring to was shooting him up with demerol, which tell me MJ could not sleep no matter what. One does get desperate when one cannot sleep and will take anything and everything. I have had a shot of Demerol and it knocked me right out. I think MJ could not sleep no matter what he took. I do not consider him am addict.
 
"Oh, but I must show you what a wonderful . caring . loving . helpful . sympathetic . knowledgable doctor I am!"

Also, what struck me listening to the tape, was CM's demeanor. Just days prior, one of the greatest if not the greatest entertainer of all time died on his clock and he very calmly describes how he discovered he wasn't breathing. I didn't hear remorse or sadness in his voice. Very businesslike and matter of fact.
 
By the way, I recently purchase "This is it" dvd from Amazon and it is a mind blowing experience. It is bits of his rehearsals for his tour, shows how he interfaces with his people,etc. Truly an amazing dvd that honed right in on MJ's perfectionism and energy. I wanted to cry watching this dvd, he really was an extraordinary entertainer. I never got the chance to see him in person, but am grateful to have grown up with him...and will miss him terribly.
 
In my early days of nursing, a board was kept near the bed incase the patient arrested (pulse, breathing stopped)
and needed CPR. The board was placed under the patient's back.

Using the board for CPR has since been stopped, as it was proved to be ineffective.

When taking my yearly CPR certification class, there has been the occassional question:
"What if I can't get the victim on the floor or ground?"

Answer: "Unless he's pinned in an automobile or otherwise trapped somewhere, you just do it!
You lift, push or pull the victim/patient to a hard, flat surface. You must do it for CPR to be effective!"
 
Well he got the milk right. Didn't MJ refer to propofol as his "milk".

Do you want some cookies with that milk?

:(

Mel


Got milk?

It's also called "milk of amnesia" since it does make the patient feel that no time has passed during the surgery & wakes up pretty alert. Er, ah, at least that's how it is in a surgical suite and later in a place that's full of monitors & nurses and called a Recovery Room.

Poor MJ. What a waste of a human being.
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In my early days of nursing, a board was kept near the bed incase the patient arrested (pulse, breathing stopped)
and needed CPR. The board was placed under the patient's back.

Using the board for CPR has since been stopped, as it was proved to be ineffective.

When taking my yearly CPR certification class, there has been the occassional question:
"What if I can't get the victim on the floor or ground?"

Answer: "Unless he's pinned in an automobile or otherwise trapped somewhere, you just do it!
You lift, push or pull the victim/patient to a hard, flat surface. You must do it for CPR to be effective!"

Personally, I think MJ was dead for almost an hour before Dr. Murray checked on him. He died during Dr. Murry's many cell phone calls. The EMTs testified his eyes were dry indicating he had been dead quite awhile. Of course this is just my opinion.
You can't revive a person who has been dead for almost an hour and Dr. Murray knew there was no hope, but didn't want to believe it. He was desperate.
 
Nurse Isabelle, I've heard of the paradox effect mainly having to do with benzodiazepines -- is this medical phenomenon (my words, because that's how it seems to me!) more common with benzodiazepines, or is it because they are so widely prescribed?

It happens with a lot of medications that have a sedative effect and is very common in the elderly.
 
Personally, I think MJ was dead for almost an hour before Dr. Murray checked on him. He died during Dr. Murry's many cell phone calls. The EMTs testified his eyes were dry indicating he had been dead quite awhile. Of course this is just my opinion.
You can't revive a person who has been dead for almost an hour and Dr. Murray knew there was no hope, but didn't want to believe it. He was desperate.


I totally agree. And I'm sure that Murray knew MJ had been dead for sometime &
would not be able to be revived. Thus the reason he didn't perform CPR correctly, if at all!

But, despite that MJ was NOT placed on the floor, he HAD to say he made an attempt at CPR.
He had to make it look like MJ had only been not breathing with no pulse for 2 minutes.

But so many dumb excuses through out the interview, about why MJ was not placed on the floor,
why he didn't call 911, why he didn't tell someone else to call 911... and why he even chose to use propofol.

As a cardiologist, heart surgeon, I'm sure he's seen patients arrest during and immediately following surgery... he knows the routine!
 
It happens with a lot of medications that have a sedative effect and is very common in the elderly.

And it's different than a patient's tolerance for a medication... which is a patient needing a
higher dose to obtain the same effect as the lower dose he/she originally needed.
Paradox is having the complete opposite effect desired. Make sense?

I had a paradox effect with Benadryl years ago. I had been working the night shift and couldn't
sleep after working all night, so I took Benadryl. In the beginning, it made me very sleepy and I slept.
But it eventually made me feel like I had taken speed; was wide awake & wired!
 
.

If Murray and the DT will claim that MJ gave himself the lethal dose of propofol,
I just hope that the jurors will see that it's impossible & doesn't make sense.

I compare it to a victim being shot to death with 5 bullet wounds. And then the witness
(a spouse?) says that the victim committed suicide or accidently shot himself 5 times!!!

Victim in either case... giving self a lethal dose of propofol or shooting self 5 times...
he'd be dead before either could be accomplished!
 
Very true. And...CM said if he would have called 911 he would have been "neglecting" MJ. I believe at that point he already had for probably 45 minutes.

Yep, Plumeria -- I think MJ was dead by 11:30 that morning. Even the EMT's thought he had been dead for about an hour when they arrived at 12:26, and they see this kind of thing often.

The arrogance of that man. He bit off wa-a-a-a-ay more than he could chew. And he needs to pay for it. :maddening:
 
I keep wondering how and why a cardiologist could be so neglectful, so irresponsible to take on the case of being PMD to MJ
... and how he could administer all the meds he did and then leave the room for such a long period of time. And his bizarre
behavior after finding MJ dead. And his outlandish lies & odd demeanor the days following. Plus his questionable private life.

The only sensible & logical answer I can come up with is that he (Murray) was/is taking drugs.
 
And it's different than a patient's tolerance for a medication... which is a patient needing a
higher dose to obtain the same effect as the lower dose he/she originally needed.
Paradox is having the complete opposite effect desired. Make sense?

I had a paradox effect with Benadryl years ago. I had been working the night shift and couldn't
sleep after working all night, so I took Benadryl. In the beginning, it made me very sleepy and I slept.
But it eventually made me feel like I had taken speed; was wide awake & wired!

Me, too! I had surgery and was prescribed promethazine for vomiting. I had nightmares, insomnia, the shakes, and I couldn't think straight. Went to the ER and the doctor said that is notorious for having those side effects. It took several days for the symptoms to dissipate.
 
And it's different than a patient's tolerance for a medication... which is a patient needing a
higher dose to obtain the same effect as the lower dose he/she originally needed.
Paradox is having the complete opposite effect desired. Make sense?

I had a paradox effect with Benadryl years ago. I had been working the night shift and couldn't
sleep after working all night, so I took Benadryl. In the beginning, it made me very sleepy and I slept.
But it eventually made me feel like I had taken speed; was wide awake & wired!

Well that explains my own situation. When I have a cold I cannot take anything that says it can cause drowsiness. That eliminates most choices. I now rely on a hot toddy for relief.
 
By the way, I recently purchase "This is it" dvd from Amazon and it is a mind blowing experience. It is bits of his rehearsals for his tour, shows how he interfaces with his people,etc. Truly an amazing dvd that honed right in on MJ's perfectionism and energy. I wanted to cry watching this dvd, he really was an extraordinary entertainer. I never got the chance to see him in person, but am grateful to have grown up with him...and will miss him terribly.

I remember when it was released in 2010, and me and my son decided to have parent time! This was only 6 months after MJ passed, so it was still quite raw. What an incredible portrait of the magic that was MJ. I remember watching my son wipe a tear when the final music video was played.

What an incredible gift he gave us!

MOO

Mel
 
I'm a fan of MJ's genius, but when it comes to common sense, who does this? Who spends their night hooked up to an IV receiving medication to help you sleep when it really is a drug used to put you under for surgery. Isn't this bizarre to anyone else?

Well, bizarre pretty much summed up MJ in a nutshell well before CM entered the scene. I can kind of see how using Propofal to induce "sleep" would have seemed logical to MJ. He was so insulated from the rest of the world and had so much money (actually, he was considerably in debt at the time, but it didn't seem to cramp his style much), and star power that he probably created his own reality. Just look at his years at Neverland. Like many stars, he considered himself to be outside the rules of average people, and most of the time he was never called to task over any of it; if he was, he simply cut that person(s) out of his life with the flick of a finger.

For whatever reason, he desperately needed sleep. Propofal acts quickly and leaves the system quickly. While it wouldn't be normal sleep, it would allow his body to relax significantly for X number of hours and he would awaken as soon as it it stopped entering his system. On the surface of it, if you had the means to do it and the IMMENSE pressure of having to perform almost every day, it seems almost logical. Almost. One less thing to have to deal with. You don't even need to REALLY sleep; you can just pay someone to do it FOR you. For someone in show business, it could be rationalized by lumping it into the category of "maintaining my instrument", like getting a manicure, facial and massage.

That would normally be the point where the rest of us, rationalizing the logic of using Propofal as a sleep aid, would shake our heads to rid ourselves of the silly notion that it could possibly be that simple. Most people would consider the downsides to weigh more heavily than the upsides, i.e., lots of needles, collapsed veins, chafing nasal canulas, condom catheters, the fact that enough anesthesia to perform major abdominal surgery might be a tad bit overkill (so to speak), the occasional need for CPR (and the resulting cracked ribs), and the higher-than-usual possibility of DEATH, not to mention that sharp stinging sensation.

All things considered, while the sleep-eating thing is really annoying, I'll take Ambien over Proprofal any day.
 

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