TN TN - Dennis Martin, 6, Great Smoky Mountains National Park, 14 June 1969

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Cincinnati Kid said:
The article is interesting and provides details of the group's movements leading to the child disappearing. I noted that at no time does the author suggest a predator or abduction as a possible theory.

One question I would have for father and grandfather - did they see any other hikers or persons in the Spence Field area after they arrived or on the last portion of the trail as they reached that area?

There is no doubt that the Smokey Mountains has rough terrain and dense areas of growth, but in the 42 years since young Dennis went missing, you would think something would have been found unless he was taken from that location.
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That's what I think too. Unless of course, what I come back to. Dennis falling and slipping into an underground area that no search or rescue teams could penetrate. If Dennis let's say, he drowned in a river. Would the chances of his remains being found in that river be literally moot? Would erosion have just washed everything, including the bones, away to nothing?

Or falling into a pit or cavern or canyon, some other underground structure that the searches could not get to in order to find the body. Trapped in an underground passageway. Did divers search the rivers? Did experience land dwellers go down into underground areas and explore to look for remains? Or was all of the searching done above ground?

The article also shows a new period of time were Bill Martin went back to camp thinking possibly that Dennis may have returned there for dinner. This was not mentioned in other sources. It is possible that during this backtracking point in time, that Dennis could have ventured further away into an opposite direction from his father who was first to begin to search.

When the grandfather reached the ranger station about 8:30 that night, how many, if any family members were looking for Dennis at that time? I recall that Bill hiked back down to the ranger station with the grandfather, but I think other accounts say the grandfather hiked to the ranger station alone as Bill contained to search.

The point being that the freshest clues probably were left from the time that Dennis went into the woods on the Appalachian Trial up to just before the storm hit that first night. Do we know the time that the storm hit the first night? Up to that time, if search and rescue was in place, maybe there would have been a better understanding of where Dennis went, and what happened to him.

It would also be interesting flash forward to 2011, and see what the search and rescue team would have done that they didn't do back in the Summer of 1969.

Satch
 
As I noted in an earlier post, it concerns me that there were (and maybe still are) places where a person could fall into to the point that they could not be found - especially in locations apparently easily accessable by the general public such as the Martin family. Are there any kind of warnings posted or are visitors expected to know of the possibility of such places as a part of the wilderness experience?
 
Cincinnati Kid said:
As I noted in an earlier post, it concerns me that there were (and maybe still are) places where a person could fall into to the point that they could not be found - especially in locations apparently easily accessible by the general public such as the Martin family. Are there any kind of warnings posted or are visitors expected to know of the possibility of such places as a part of the wilderness experience?
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I share the same concerns as you, Cincinnati Kid.

I found it interesting that the recent article, just as you said, does not mention any abduction theories other than the family believing this by offering the $5000 reward money.

I like how the article gives specific names to locations that the family hiked to and from, stayed, and searched.

Satch
 
Knoxnews.com features a taped video of retired Great Smoky Mountain Park ranger, Dwight McCarter. He states that the Martin family feels their child was taken. While they are willing to look at other explanations, they really believe he was stolen according to statements by McCarter on that video.
 
Hi Everyone,

I was wondering if Dennis' parents are still living, or any brothers' and sisters, or other relatives, were known to share any information that is not mentioned in the published documents of this case?

Keeping the case alive, and someday getting the answers as to what happened to Dennis, is needed to bring closure to this grieving family.

Maybe someone can shed some new light on this cold case. It deserves to be solved, and the family needs peace.

Satch
 
Based on the ages given at the time of Dennis' disappearance, the father, if living, would now be in his mid-70's. Not sure of the mother because I didn't see any age given for her in the stories, but it is assumed that if she is still alive, she would be close in age to her husband. The brother who was there would now be in his early 50's. You'd figure the grandfather, if still alive, would be around 100. Unfortunately, such a tragic event like the loss of a child may tend to shorten the lives of those who are left behind. The family was listed as being from Knoxville, but the last-name is so common that attempting to match it to those living or dead from in and around that area is quite difficult.
 
I've read the book about disappearances in the Great Smoky Mountains, and many other books/articles about the missing. Two things stand out to me: the first being the name, Martin, but this may be a celestial fluke; secondly, I've read about cases, one I cannot find any more, where a child went missing from a church-sponsored hike. He was found quit a bit later on the side of a mountain, on rocks, and it is theorized he was taken by a cougar - one had been seen in the area - unfortunately I can't find the url right now, but will search for it.; Even back in the sixties, there were drug dealers with underground labs, etc. - they could not afford to let anyone who stumbled upon them to live.

I lean toward a cougar attack - it would have been swift, silent, and the cougar would have carried the body off to eat at its leisure. The rain did not help.

Just some opinions.
 
Trident said:
I've read the book about disappearances in the Great Smoky Mountains, and many other books/articles about the missing. Two things stand out to me: the first being the name, Martin, but this may be a celestial fluke; secondly, I've read about cases, one I cannot find any more, where a child went missing from a church-sponsored hike. He was found quit a bit later on the side of a mountain, on rocks, and it is theorized he was taken by a cougar - one had been seen in the area - unfortunately I can't find the url right now, but will search for it.; Even back in the sixties, there were drug dealers with underground labs, etc. - they could not afford to let anyone who stumbled upon them to live.

I lean toward a cougar attack - it would have been swift, silent, and the cougar would have carried the body off to eat at its leisure. The rain did not help.

Just some opinions.
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Hi Trident!

Welcome to the forum! That is very interesting information. Would a cougar just attack for no reason? Or maybe Dennis got too close to the animal's den in a tragic fate?

The only thing I remember hearing is that if an animal attack happens, the predator will not carry it's prey more than a couple hundred feet maximum. So if Dennis was attacked by a cougar, there would be no remains that could be found at all?

Satch
 
Satch said:
Hi Trident!

Welcome to the forum! That is very interesting information. Would a cougar just attack for no reason? Or maybe Dennis got too close to the animal's den in a tragic fate?

The only thing I remember hearing is that if an animal attack happens, the predator will not carry it's prey more than a couple hundred feet maximum. So if Dennis was attacked by a cougar, there would be no remains that could be found at all?

Satch
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I have in my hand the book, "Cougar Attacks", by Kathy Etling. This book lists, with some detail, all the reported cougar attacks up until 2001. I gave it a swift perusal this AM and discovered that many attacks are by healthy cats looking for a quick meal - that's why they choose women and children, less energy and risk. Also, I learned, attacks that are not witnessed, often leave nothing but clothing behind, as was the case that I stated above (still looking for the url). The cats attack, looking for prey, because they are hungry, hunting for a meal, not because anyone stumbled on their den. As for the "the predator will not carry it's prey more than a couple hundred feet maximum", can you give me a url on that? It's not that I don't believe you or the source, I just wonder what type of predator the source is referring to. If it's bears or wolves, that may be quite true; in the case of cougars, I'm not so sure.

As an aside, I believe the cougar would have been drawn to the area by the noise. Cats are nosey.

Also, as an aside wolves, despite the cosy press they've been given were, at one time, very ferocious predators, not that this bit of information has anything to do with this case, just stating facts which may fly in the face of some "experts" with a sweet bent. Predatory animals can be quite ferocious killers and I don't believe from what I've researched, one can say for sure what any one predator will do in any given situation.

On the other hand, the Martin name also has unlimited possibilities.

Sometimes I wish I could see a thing through a filtered tube, but, alas, I cannot; I see everything in most all of it's ramifications, and I know I've failed to see some of the more hidden ones. Maybe Ocam's razor is the best approach - a hungry cougar took the child, dragged him away because there was no one there to stop he/she, took him up to the den, and ate him. Someday a hiker may stumble upon the clothes, or not, because it has been a very long time.

I have many books dealing with animal attacks, all kinds, should you, or anyone else, be interested. Good Lord, I spend my life researching the stranger things in life.

Thank you for the welcome.
 
Trident said:
I have in my hand the book, "Cougar Attacks", by Kathy Etling. This book lists, with some detail, all the reported cougar attacks up until 2001. I gave it a swift perusal this AM and discovered that many attacks are by healthy cats looking for a quick meal - that's why they choose women and children, less energy and risk. Also, I learned, attacks that are not witnessed, often leave nothing but clothing behind, as was the case that I stated above (still looking for the url). The cats attack, looking for prey, because they are hungry, hunting for a meal, not because anyone stumbled on their den. As for the "the predator will not carry it's prey more than a couple hundred feet maximum", can you give me a url on that? It's not that I don't believe you or the source, I just wonder what type of predator the source is referring to. If it's bears or wolves, that may be quite true; in the case of cougars, I'm not so sure.

As an aside, I believe the cougar would have been drawn to the area by the noise. Cats are nosey.

Also, as an aside wolves, despite the cosy press they've been given were, at one time, very ferocious predators, not that this bit of information has anything to do with this case, just stating facts which may fly in the face of some "experts" with a sweet bent. Predatory animals can be quite ferocious killers and I don't believe from what I've researched, one can say for sure what any one predator will do in any given situation.

On the other hand, the Martin name also has unlimited possibilities.

Sometimes I wish I could see a thing through a filtered tube, but, alas, I cannot; I see everything in most all of it's ramifications, and I know I've failed to see some of the more hidden ones. Maybe Ocam's razor is the best approach - a hungry cougar took the child, dragged him away because there was no one there to stop he/she, took him up to the den, and ate him. Someday a hiker may stumble upon the clothes, or not, because it has been a very long time.

I have many books dealing with animal attacks, all kinds, should you, or anyone else, be interested. Good Lord, I spend my life researching the stranger things in life.

Thank you for the welcome.
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Greetings,

The reference that an animal generally would not carry its prey more than 100 yards is something that I read about in theories on the case. Sadly, I don't remember the URL link. Sorry!

Satch
 
Aha, I finally found the case I was looking for:

"

The boy disappeared in October 1999 while hiking in the Comanche Peak Wilderness Area (pictured, left) with a church group and authorities believed he was grabbed by a mountain lion while running along the trail alone, although no evidence of a lion attack was ever found."
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/2270799/detail.html

There are several other articles which allude to a cougar attack, and after reading all the facts - some saw a cougar in the area - it seems a very reasonable assumption. This is a very sad, but interesting case. I believe it's probably what happened to the Martin child, but that's only my opinion.
 
All theories on this disappeance are of interest and should be considered. However, although a cougar may silently attack, would not the attacked ten-year old have cried out - at least at the beginning? While the animal may have dragged the youngster for a distance, would not some of the clothing he was wearing have become torn in the attack and perhaps left behind? Also, would not his remains - including his clothing - have been discovered during the search that began shortly afterward?
 
Cincinnati Kid said:
All theories on this disappeance are of interest and should be considered. However, although a cougar may silently attack, would not the attacked ten-year old have cried out - at least at the beginning? While the animal may have dragged the youngster for a distance, would not some of the clothing he was wearing have become torn in the attack and perhaps left behind? Also, would not his remains - including his clothing - have been discovered during the search that began shortly afterward?
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Oh, I totally agree that all theories should be considered, especially (to me) the coincidence of both families being named Martin. What are the odds against that? They would be astronomical, I imagine, but in quite of few of these cases here, there are strange coincidences. I believe the Bible tells us we are put here for God's pleasure/enjoyment/entertainment, not sure of the exact word, but I often think these "quirks" are thrown in for someone's amusement.

Whether or not Dennis cried out, I have no idea. If the attack was swift enough he may not have had a chance.

In the case I referenced earlier, there were clothes found 3-4 years later, and then a skull, in a place where rescuers had to climb on hands and knees.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/2260533/detail.html
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/2257430/detail.html

Of course, someone could have lured Dennis away, but once again, I believe the odds of a predatory human just happening to stumble upon a vulnerable child in a huge national park would be off the charts, not impossible, because nothing ever is, but very much against it.

Has anyone kept track of either of these families? Just curious if any other strange things have happened to them.

All posts are my opinion only
 
I don't recall reading where clothing and/or a skull found 3-4 years later was determined to be from Dennis Martin. Anybody know? He was reported as wearing a red t-shirt on the day he disappeared. To my knowledge, that was never found.
 
Trident said:
Oh, I totally agree that all theories should be considered, especially (to me) the coincidence of both families being named Martin. What are the odds against that? They would be astronomical, I imagine, but in quite of few of these cases here, there are strange coincidences. I believe the Bible tells us we are put here for God's pleasure/enjoyment/entertainment, not sure of the exact word, but I often think these "quirks" are thrown in for someone's amusement.

Whether or not Dennis cried out, I have no idea. If the attack was swift enough he may not have had a chance.

In the case I referenced earlier, there were clothes found 3-4 years later, and then a skull, in a place where rescuers had to climb on hands and knees.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/2260533/detail.html
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/2257430/detail.html

Of course, someone could have lured Dennis away, but once again, I believe the odds of a predatory human just happening to stumble upon a vulnerable child in a huge national park would be off the charts, not impossible, because nothing ever is, but very much against it.

Has anyone kept track of either of these families? Just curious if any other strange things have happened to them.

All posts are my opinion only
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The thing is though in the swiftest of attacks, let's assume an animal attack, I think there would be clothes that would be found. Clothes would not be taken back to an animal den. They would be scattered in fragments. Even if blood was washed away from the two big storms in the Dennis Martin case, it just seems that saturated clothes would be found, and they were not.

John Doe who claimed he saw a human skeletal remains of a child several years later, was not verified by other sources. The remains, he claimed were found near "Treamont's Big Hollow." Just for reference, how far is "Tremont's Big Hollow" from where Dennis went missing.

For those who believe the skeleton story, most think it was Dennis' remains. However, many don't believe the skeleton story, so they consider it moot. I would love to hear from the lead Forrest Ranger and investigator for his own thoughts about that skeleton.

Trident, what are your thoughts on the child's shoe print resembling Dennis, found where Dennis was last seen? The prints were found near a river, but the trace of them was lost near a bush. I still lean towards Dennis drowning or falling into an area that was unsearchable, for instance an underground pit or canyon.

If the skeleton story is true, hard to believe that after all these years that it took say three for four years to find it, consider the impact of the thousands of miles that were searched. (Unless weather erosion, brought the remains from underground to an above ground area.) Also hard to believe that Joe Doe would wait till 1985 to report it because of him hunting guinsing, a misdemeanor offense. No way he would be prosecuted, if he had found evidence that could bring closure to this case!

Satch
 
Cincinnati Kid said:
I don't recall reading where clothing and/or a skull found 3-4 years later was determined to be from Dennis Martin. Anybody know? He was reported as wearing a red t-shirt on the day he disappeared. To my knowledge, that was never found.
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No, it wasn't Dennis Martin, it was another child in Colorado. I was comparing the two cases. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

In the case I referenced earlier, there were clothes found 3-4 years later, and then a skull, in a place where rescuers had to climb on hands and knees.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...33/detail.html
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...30/detail.html
 
I still feel a predator is possible in this case. I really don't feel that predators just stumble into something (such as being in that point in the Smoky Mountains at that time). Through trial and error, such individuals learn where they might find a child alone and prepare for such encounters in advance. It could be in a shopping mall, a schoolyard or a national park. Criminal activity - even that so heartbreaking as what the predator deals in - knows no boundries.
 
Cincinnati Kid said:
I still feel a predator is possible in this case. I really don't feel that predators just stumble into something (such as being in that point in the Smoky Mountains at that time). Through trial and error, such individuals learn where they might find a child alone and prepare for such encounters in advance. It could be in a shopping mall, a schoolyard or a national park. Criminal activity - even that so heartbreaking as what the predator deals in - knows no boundries.
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So, you are thinking a child predator, a two-legged pedophile, was wandering around the Great Smokey Mountains National Park on a rainy day and just happened to luck out when Dennis seperated from the other children, grabbed him within hearing-distance of several children and adults, and dragged him off?

I don't mean to make light of your ideas, they are yours, and I respect them; God knows, you could be right - it just seems to me the odds are so long against that happening. I believe the park had many more four-legged predators, at least at that time, than it did two-legged ones. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the human predator theory.

On that same note, and I admitted you could be krect, and me wrong. Do you know how many murders happened in that park in a rough time period of, say ten years? I know there have been several murders there, but the ones I've read about happened at night, to people camping out.
 
I think we respect each other's theories and opinions. If you read the previous posts here, you will note that I gave this possibility some time back and even pointed out how it might have been carried out. My main feeling for this is that in the 42 years since it happened, no trace of the young man (body, clothing, etc.) has ever been found. One reason could be that he was totally removed from that area.

Just a few other thoughts. There was a report some distance from the boy's last-known location that what was believed to be a child's cry was heard and a strange looking man was seen right afterward. With regards to rain, no rain began to fall in the area until some time after the Martin youth was last seen. It might be pointed out - as I did in an earlier post here - that the boy's parents have expressed their belief that he was abducted.

With these thoughts in mind, I think the possibility of abduction should, at least, be considered.
 
Cincinnati Kid said:
I think we respect each other's theories and opinions. If you read the previous posts here, you will note that I gave this possibility some time back and even pointed out how it might have been carried out. My main feeling for this is that in the 42 years since it happened, no trace of the young man (body, clothing, etc.) has ever been found. One reason could be that he was totally removed from that area.

Just a few other thoughts. There was a report some distance from the boy's last-known location that what was believed to be a child's cry was heard and a strange looking man was seen right afterward. With regards to rain, no rain began to fall in the area until some time after the Martin youth was last seen. It might be pointed out - as I did in an earlier post here - that the boy's parents have expressed their belief that he was abducted.

With these thoughts in mind, I think the possibility of abduction should, at least, be considered.
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The reports are that Dennis was last seen between 3-4 PM, and that a man heard a "sickening scream" about 7PM. He thought it might have been a child scream, but could not pinpoint an exact time frame. The witness and his family who heard the scream were about 9 miles away from where Dennis was last seen. (Investigators discounted the scream because they claimed the distance was too far from where Dennis was last seen.)

Many claim the witness heard an animal, some say a Bobcat. About three minutes later the same witness saw the unkempt man moving in the direction where the scream was heard. The witness who was camping with his family did not know about the search for Dennis until after he returned home and than reported what he had seen/heard.

I don't think the unkempt man is related to Dennis' case. If he had taken Dennis, wouldn't it be likely that he would have had the boy with him?

I still want to find out where John Doe's skeleton was found. It was said near Tremont's Big Hollow. But how far was that from where Dennis went missing? For those who believe his story, and some do, and others don't. It would be helpful to get that location of the skeleton.

A child's shoe print, was found about 3 miles from where Dennis was last seen about 2-3 days after Dennis went missing and after at least one major storm had already been in the area, hampering the rescue operation. Investigators had already been in that area, but the rescue team did not include children. (Presumably who would wear that kind of shoe.)

Also for study, under normal quiet weather conditions and conversation is how long could Dennis Martin have traveled to be out of hearing distance for a call for help? Investigators have said the sound of strong wind, or a roaring creek, could drown out a child's distress cries as little as 10 feet away. Thicket and underbrush could possibly miss a small child, hiding as little as 5 feet away!

I read that a plane went down in the Smokies once, and it took a year to find the remains. I think the lead forest ranger on the case said that.

Satch
 
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