Max's Search Warrants Released!!!! Discuss Max's Death here #2

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You are probably right. I guess I figure since LE said from the beginning and said it was an accident, that it preempted that or was done in other communication. I also assuming that any claim of suffocation would not be made to CPS until further testing or autopsy was done. So, what would be put in such a file ... particulars of the accident, who was there, what they said happened, doctors diagnosis?

I posted a link in a previous post (this thread) that explains the doctor's concerns and the AR results.
 
She was there at least overnight with all of the Shacknai children and their father and his girlfriend. Any behavioral or social interaction patterns were well established and certainly apparent to a 13 year old. I would love to hear that all was sweetness and light.

I would also think XZ had probably visited more than once in a 2 year or more period. JMO
 
She was supposed to stay for 2 weeks, but wound up flying back after getting stitches at a clinic, and going shopping with RZ before boarding a plane back home.

I agree that XZ just flew in Sunday night. Where did you read XZ suppose to stay 2 weeks- do you have the link?
 
People new to Rebecca's case deserve to
Come and read the accurate and honest truth about the events as they occurred. Not exaggerated and fabricated false added events. It is not fair to those who have not had a chance to follow the case and/or thoroughly read of all of the information.

There needs to be verified proof that Rebecca told completely different accounts of the events of that morning of Max's fall.. Just as last night's false claim that Rebecca didn't perform CPR and this is what cost Max his life.. This was proven false per court docs.. Rebecca's lying to officers about her events of that morning by giving different Accts to different officers needs proof provided..
 
Search warrant says the hospital was going to make a complaint to CPS on July 14th.

Ok, that is different. I appreciate you filling me as I am still catching up and have missed some things. I still don't see why the hospital would have done this without more opinions, advanced testing, and waiting till the autopsy and/or to see if Dina and Jonah were going to make that decision soon. They seem possibly culpable to me for not doing those things although I completely understand why they made the initial evaluation of suffocation. I'm a bit dumfounded by them not checking this out to the logical, medical decision making end even if it is rare since accusations of child abuse/neglect or murder are so serious.
 
I'd rather hear her explanation as to why she couldn't hear MS ride a scooter or run or jump or fall or crash a chandelier or whatever the current theory is, but she could hear RZ call her name, all while in the shower and/or blow drying her hair (different accounts were given to different police officers).

I've not seen it stated anywhere that XZ did not hear a crash. Have you? If so, can you supply a link? TIA
 
I agree that XZ just flew in Sunday night. Where did you read XZ suppose to stay 2 weeks?

Zahau started giving Max mouth-to-mouth resuscitation and yelled up to the only other person in the house, her 13-year-old sister, Xena, to call 911. Xena had arrived the day before from St. Joseph, Mo., for a two-week visit, and had just stepped out of the shower and was blowing out her hair.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/09/18/what-really-happened-in-the-coronado-mansion.html

The brother-in-law confirmed that and the shopping trip in a recent interview. The link to that should be posted in this thread.
 
You can't have it both ways. The trainer at her gym says she was super athletic and that he thinks she could have physically gone over the railing (although I think he also said he doesn't think she did commit suicide, just that she could have jumped a railing). And her sister said she recently did a marathon and was very athletic. So why couldn't she lift a child less than half her weight?

I am the same height as RZ, although I weigh 7 lbs less than she did. I am not athletic, but I am fit. I can easily lift a 45 lb child.

One, he was not less than half her weight.

Two, he would have been fighting back.

He hasn't openly disagreed with the AR but I wouldn't expect him to because it does support his diagnosis. If he disagrees with the ME's conclusion as to manner of death, I would think he may do that privately with Max's parents.

An insider posted here days ago that Max's mother still thinks he was suffocated. This was before the AR was released.

JMO

I am glad this is your opinion, as this is accusing the doctor of giving out information that had not been proven, and which cps emphatically states not to discuss when a case is opened.

Christopher Reeve had a broken neck. MS did not.

Spinal cord contusions are almost always NOT fatal. I posted a link on thread one that contained a video of a doctor explaining that. They can be fatal in cases of extreme speed, like a race car driver.

But in this instance they were, as proven by autopsy. So just because something does not always happen, does not mean that it can not happen.

The ICU doctor has never spoken publicly as far as I know.

Since he has not come out and said he has changed his opinion.... I think he still believes what he believed when he did the extensive tests on Max for four days.

IMO

The fact that the ICU doctor has not spoken out publicly, does not mean that he still feels the same way he did when he assessed Max's VISIBLE injuries.

So, why, if he continued to do extensive testing for four days, would he have disclosed to the parents that Max may have been suffocated? Wouldn't he have contacted cps and gone ahead to try to prove, disprove his reasoning? What was the need for the extensive testing for four days? Maybe due to the fact that his potential diagnosis, did not fit Max's scenario? Not saying this was the case, but it is one possibility. Doctors do NOT always know what is wrong with a patient immediately, or the extent of injuries immediately.



bbm

The spinal cord is part of the central nervous system, which branches out into the peripheral nervous system. The spinal cord consists of nervous tissue as well as connective tissue.

A fracture of the vertebrae is not necessary in order to cause an injury to the spinal cord, as has been evidenced in MS's injuries.

Analyzing injuries is like a puzzle. It's not enough to say "spinal cord injury". You have to know the specific kind of injury because only specific kinds of actions can cause certain injuries. That's why it's so significant that we know MS's head went back violently enough to unplug his spinal cord. He fell FORWARDS, not backwards. No marks on the back of his head. Not a single one.

And notice the marks on his nose as dicussed in the AR. He did not have a broken nose, which you would expect with a violent fall. He has bruising. Bruising indicates pressure, not a violent, fatal fall forwards.

Please re read Sorrells post above yours concerning the spinal cord injury.

He would not have had to have a broken nose to have bruising. He had a head wound. The head is very vascular. Think about a man getting a cut shaving and how long it can bleed.

If the blood is internal, it can easily cause bruising throughout the sinus cavity, including around the eyes and nose. Think about having an iv or getting blood drawn. Getting a bump on your head and how it can bruise around your eye. Bumping into something and having a huge bruise an hour or a day later. Bruising means that blood is caught under the skin, that it leaked into the tissue and created the bruising from an injury, pressure from an ambu bag and people holding it in place, etc, etc, etc.

A question for you: Did Christopher Reeves have to die and have an autopsy before doctors could determine what was wrong with him?

Question back. How long was Christopher is the hospital, undergoing tests? He also had fractures, which was established above, that the injury to the spine can occur with or without fractures.

It seems to me, without seeing exactly what tests were performed, that the doctor at first, focused on the brain and injuries to the head/brain region, vs looking at the extent the spinal cord may have been damaged. As time went bye, I am sure that changed and more extensive tests were performed. I would like to see the doctors discharge summary. That is the only way to know if he truly felt the same way as in his first, visual assessment.

I understand what you're saying, but Dr. Peterson didn't believe he hit his head hard enough for it to bounce back with such force to cause a spinal contusion and neither do I. If he hit his head that hard, why isn't his nose broken? Remember, his nose had bruising, as did his clavicle. Wouldn't they have fractured?

Link please, as Max did not land on his nose, but most likely where the fracture occurred.

I don't believe LE lied or covered-up MS cause of death.

Bingo and imho the post of the day!!!!!! I agree, no one lied or covered up the fact that Max had a tragic and fatal accident. They also stated that this was an unwitnessed fall.



My son committed suicide by hanging. My daughter found him on her way to her bedroom,screamed and my husband ran up. They got him down (I'll spare you the details) and my husband started CPR .He continued until paramedics arrived ,about 5-7 minutes later .Adrenalin was pumping and he kept it up. BUT the paramedics and EMT's never took over .They didn't work on him at all,but ran with him to the ambulance.
I met them at the emergency room entrance ,since I was at my parents house closer to the hospital. What my daughter noticed,and I did not,was,they weren't giving him breathes in any way ,not even with an ambu bag. I just thought he was breathing on his own,but he was already gone.I don't know if they ever tried.Maybe they saw signs that he had been gone too long.
My husband assumed they didn't want to waste a minute at our house doing CPR,but wanted to get to the emergency room asap. Six years ago the closest hospital was 20 minutes away. Today there's one 5 minutes away. I try not to dwell on that stuff. I imagine Max's parents have similar "if only's".Doesn't bring them back,though.

I am so sorry for your loss and everything that you and your family have had to go through!! (((((Hugs))))) and thank you so much for being kind enough to share this with us.

I don't see how posting a quote from a loving grandmother shows anger and hostility towards anyone. I can speak for myself when I say I have no anger or hostility to anyone, particularly to someone I have only read about on the internet. I will say, however, that I feel compelled to be a voice for a dead child who is being blamed for his death.

I'm sorry, but I truly do not understand how anyone is 'blaming' Max?

Yes, and somehow it wound up over his leg when he obviously landed face first (as proven by the marks on the front of his head).

Also odd is that a child falling with such force onto the floor had only bruising on his nose and not a broken nose.

Addressed above and not at all odd if Max held onto the Razr for dear life. Poor baby, I can only imagine how terrifying that would have been.

It took 4 days to assess his injuries. His injuries were known on day one.

Yes, I have questions why it should have taken 4 days, in a childrens ICU, with a staff proficient in treating children, for them to realize the extent of Max's spinal involvement also. Thank you for bringing that up, as that has made me think a lot.

I agree with you about where MS landed when he went over the railing. However, that would not explain the bruising around the nose, the clavicle, the abrasions on his spine that match the number of steps above the landing, nor would it explain why he did not have abrasions on his hands from either trying to stop his fall, or cuts from grabbing a chandelier.

If he held on to the scooter, he would have no injuries to his hands. The angles of the fall were not witnessed. The geometry of the fall has explained the extent of Max's spinal injuries.

FWIW and FYI, I'm not talking about any specific telepone call or text, but I'm sure everyone is aware that when you're in the hospital, they request you turn off your phone. Even in a doctor's office. So it's very plausible that Jonah had his phone off the MAJORITY of the time he was at the hospital with his critically injurred son.

JMHO
fran

Fran, where I have worked for the last 10 years, it has not been tequired to turn off your cell phone. The older equipment would and still would be affected by cell phones or computers. I have trouble believing that Rady's as renowned as it is, still has that type of equipment. Even our hospital, which is not state of the art is not affected by any electronic devices. So in other words, it varies from facility to facility.
 
CDS22- It is clear that you believe RZ killed MS. That is a SERIOUS allegation. The iniitial positive tox screen for Benzo's was repeated and confirmed to be false, so ED physician suspicions were wrong. The autopsy re-confirmed negative tox study and demonstrates underlying pathology consistant with spinal injury- not murder. Ultimately, the medical examiners and LE believe accident.

-What is your proof that the Hospital physician(s), Pathologist and LE all worng?
-Motive for RZ to cause MS harm?
 
CDS22- It is clear that you believe RZ killed MS. That is a SERIOUS allegation. The iniitial positive tox screen for Benzo's was false negative. The autopsy confirms negative tox study and demonstrates underlying pathology consistent with spinal injury. Ultimately, the medical examiners and LE beflieve accident.

-What is your proof that the medical conclusion and LE are both worng?
-Motive for RZ to cause MS harm?

I haven't accused anyone of killing MS, nor do I believe that the medical conclusion as stated in the AR is wrong. I believe that there remains unanswered questions about what happened to MS prior to receiving his final, fatal injury. I also don't believe LE is covering anything up.
 
I haven't accused anyone of killing MS, nor do I believe that the medical conclusion as stated in the AR is wrong. I believe that there remains unanswered questions about what happened to MS prior to receiving his final, fatal injury. I also don't believe LE is covering anything up.

Your posts strongly suggest that you don't believe the medical conclusion, and definately think RZ did something to MS. Is everyone missing something? I read that RZ treated MS like her son, so why would she harm him? Somone posted suspicisons that RZ did something to MS becasue she was angry where JS went? We have heard that he walked to the gym. Is this true, or did he go somewhere else ... any inside scoop?

.......So, you speculate that RZ could have done something to MS. I guess we don't know what went down. IF RZ did do something to MS, and threw him over the balcony.... he would have fallen straight down. She could not have propelled him with enough force to bring down the chandelier, then continue to fly across to lower staircase, then flat on floor.

Just wondering what your thoughts are, since both deaths are being questioned.
 
Evidence to back allegation that Rebecca changed her acct multiple times to multiple officers???
 
MS autopsy report is pretty conclusive on the cause of his death. Again, it makes no sense for LE, the ME or physicians involved in his treatment to lie or attempt to cover up MS cause of death. There's no motivation for them to do so. To continue to accuse them of such is bizarre, to say the least. JMO.

The ME also came to a firm determination on Rebecca's death as well. So we are so sure he got it perfectly right on one and made a huge mistake on the other one? Because various people have been accused of possibly murdering Rebecca based on speculations even though the ME clearly stated the MOD/COD was suicide by hanging.

Yes, Max became brain dead due to lack of oxygen. That really tells us nothing about how that came to be or what transpired around the time of his death that made it happen in the first place.

And Rebecca died by suicide and the method was hanging and that has left many unanswered questions also for some. Aren't some suggesting that the ME nor the LE did their jobs or covered up the truth on RZ? Why would LE/ME have a reason to lie and cover that up either?

Again, I see no difference in wondering about these two mysterious deaths.

This is a very confusing thread.

We have threads here where we are asked to speculate about who murdered Rebecca. Where is the evidence required to prove those assertions(theories) since it seem now on this thread the ones who have unanswered questions about Max' death are being chastised if they even wonder about Max' death.

I don't see hardly anyone saying that the police and ME got it right on her case. The entire agencies involved are accused of being bought out, covering it up and selling out to JS. And possible named suspects have been slammed from almost minute one even though both cases are closed now.

I dont know if Rebecca harmed Max or if anyone in that home at the time did but I do not buy he flew over the bannister on his scooter and fell to his death.



IMO
 
At age 12 my oldest son Tommy was playing with another neighborhood kid .
That boy got mad at my son because he wouldn't get him a movie ticket [he had already paid the night before] and did a karate chop on his hip . It broke .
Hospital and surgery and also the police .
The hospital called ..
They have to with serious injury . They don't know if we were lying
They let the police handle that while they care for the child .
The police talked to all of us . No big deal..that is their job .
They must have talked to everyone involved in this case too .
p.s. They boy never apologized , sent a card or anything . His parents were mad that their son would be prosecuted . Nver mind that my son had 2 surgeries and months of rehab . What a way to raise your kid huh?
 
Since he has not come out and said he has changed his opinion.... I think he still believes what he believed when he did the extensive tests on Max for four days.

IMO

So, he decided not to follow his ethic duty that he believed Max was murdered and changed his mind not to bother follow thru with seeing legal justice on behalf of this murdered child?? His allegations were of murder, specifically suffocation.. The procedure was started for this allegation to be handled legally with Rady's social worker assigned to the case and LE being brought in for the pending protective order all stemming from this dr's allegations..

This all ceased upon a thorough autopsy done on Max that showed something completely different from what this dr alleged.. But if you believe he still feels the same(I.e. That Max was murdered via suffocation and then thrown off the staircase)then why is the dr not following his ethic duty that a doctor takes an oath to uphold? If you believe that the doctor doesn't believe the autopsy report is true and accurate and still believes he is correct.. what is keeping him from following his ethic duty?
 
Evidence to back allegation that Rebecca changed her acct multiple times to multiple officers???

The differences between what she was credited with saying in both the AR and SW. Both links are posted on this thread.
 
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